- 10 Rule?

[Nekira Sudacne]

The -10 rule does not exsit. anyone who mentions it gets a wack on the head with the Game Masters Guide.

[Mack]

Rock on -10. Killer of muchkins everywhere.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Rock on -10. Killer of muchkins everywhere.

not to mention non-muchkins. . .

[Dead Boy]

Rock on -10. Killer of muchkins everywhere.

not to mention non-muchkins. . .

It's an equal-oppertuniuty killer of all characters.

I hate it because it reduces the game to where he who has the biggest gun and the most MDC automatically wins and greatly impeades on the special abilities of far too many classes. The only classes that actually benifit from the -10/No Bonus rule are mages and master psychics with either TK Force Field of Body Field because they are the only ones that can conjure up more MDC defenses in the middiel of a fight.

[Mack]

Rock on -10. Killer of muchkins everywhere.

not to mention non-muchkins. . .

Never bring a knife to a gun fight.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Rock on -10. Killer of muchkins everywhere.

not to mention non-muchkins. . .

Never bring a knife to a gun fight.

or anything other than a jucier, ninja, or samuri either. the rule is pathetic, and serves no purpose at all.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I use the -10 rule with bonuses. I mean my 15th level Samurai should be better than a kid with rocks.

he would be. he would have bonuses. the Kid would not.

[Mack]

Rock on -10. Killer of muchkins everywhere.

not to mention non-muchkins. . .

Never bring a knife to a gun fight.

or anything other than a jucier, ninja, or samuri either.

Yep.

Look, -10 is a style thing. Some folks like a gritty, realistic style. Others like a comic book style. -10 is great in the former, but not the latter. Personally, I like the realistic Mad Max approach (and hate munchkins) so -10 works fine by me. The difference is that I can say that, and not call the comic book style "pathetic" at the same time because I respect those who perfer a different style.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Rock on -10. Killer of muchkins everywhere.

not to mention non-muchkins. . .

Never bring a knife to a gun fight.

or anything other than a jucier, ninja, or samuri either.

Yep.

Look, -10 is a style thing. Some folks like a gritty, realistic style. Others like a comic book style. -10 is great in the former, but not the latter. Personally, I like the realistic Mad Max approach (and hate munchkins) so -10 works fine by me. The difference is that I can say that, and not call the comic book style "pathetic" at the same time because I respect those who perfer a different style.

I can and do respect those who prefer a different style. I don't respect the -10 rule.

I keep them seperate, you can have gritty without it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Rock on -10. Killer of muchkins everywhere.

Are you kidding me?
Munchkins are the ones with the biggest guns!

It's the rogue scholars, city rats, vagabonds, and other non-combat characters who are screwed. At least they used to be able to try to run and dodge their way out of combat.

[Killer Cyborg]

Look, -10 is a style thing. Some folks like a gritty, realistic style. Others like a comic book style. -10 is great in the former, but not the latter. Personally, I like the realistic Mad Max approach (and hate munchkins) so -10 works fine by me. The difference is that I can say that, and not call the comic book style "pathetic" at the same time because I respect those who perfer a different style.

I also like to play realistically, and I hate the -10 rule.
The way the rules were before was pretty simplistic, but it was fast and easy and realistic enough.
Sure, it's unrealistic to be able to dodge gunfire... but KS himself explained the reasoning. By dodging around you are making yourself harder to hit because you're a moving target and such.
Not the most realistic rule, but it balanced out the unrealistic accuracy everybody had with firearms; on an aimed shot, the average 1st level character only has a 5% chance of missing any target within 60'.
The two unrealistic rules balanced out into a fairly realistic representation of combat.

Now you still have the stupidly high accuracy rating, but without the ability to "dodge" you get nailed every time.

[AllMightyRCB]

I do the same thing. PP bonuses should count for strike bonuses for ranged weapons. It equals out anyways. The attacker gets more bonuses to strike and the defender gets more to dodge. But using these bonuses and ignoring the -10 rule reflects character's agility and hand-eye coordination.

[Mack]

It's the rogue scholars, city rats, vagabonds, and other non-combat characters who are screwed. At least they used to be able to try to run and dodge their way out of combat.

Exactly. They're non-combat characters. They shouldn't be in combat in the first place.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's the rogue scholars, city rats, vagabonds, and other non-combat characters who are screwed. At least they used to be able to try to run and dodge their way out of combat.

Exactly. They're non-combat characters. They shouldn't be in combat in the first place.

Oh.
I didn't realize that you were referring to those munchkins.

[Borast]

Personally, non-combat or combat...gunplay is SUPPOSED to be deadly.

I apply the -10 rule universally, PC or non-PC...

But then, on a natural "1" something goes wrong with your weapon too...

After all, somthing moving at hundreds of metres per second is moving faster than you can react...unless you're a Juicer, that is (autododge)...

Besides, it's a good way to remind people they are supposed to ROLEplay, and not ROLLplay...

HOWEVER, if I'm playing a "tactical" game (along the lines of Elizabeth Moon's Familas Regnant series), I tend to ignore it more often or not...after all, starships have a hard time dodging anyway.

[Mack]

It's the rogue scholars, city rats, vagabonds, and other non-combat characters who are screwed. At least they used to be able to try to run and dodge their way out of combat.

Exactly. They're non-combat characters. They shouldn't be in combat in the first place.

To bad non-combatants have an equal chance to be shot, and a greater chance to be killed since they don't carry the biggest weapons and guns.

Again, exactly. Non-combatants should be avoiding combat.

[SkyeFyre]

.... then why do they have guns? O_ô

Nah I agree with you, just they can't always avoid combat. Sometimes the scenario arises that it's fight or die, and in these cases.... they die

[PigLickJF]

So let me get this straight. Folks are actually complaining that they have a -10 to dodge laser fire moving at the speed of light?

No, people are complaining that they have a -10 to dodge with no bonuses to dodge the *aim* of the person/thing firing said laser beam. The speed of the projectile/beam makes no difference if you've jumped out of the line of fire before the shooter squeezes the trigger.

PigLick

[Killer Cyborg]

[quote="Groth One-Eye"]So let me get this straight. Folks are actually complaining that they have a -10 to dodge laser fire moving at the speed of light?

Which would bs silly, except for this one fact:
-A lot of people actually miss when they shoot in real life.

In the game, it's a lot more rare.
Palladium has a screwed up system for firing weapons; they are WAY too accurate.
-A first level character with basic firearms training only has a 5% chance of missing any standing target within 60'. (Actually, the odd may officially be less than 5%.. more like 0%. While most people play that a natural 1 is always a miss, I don't think it's actually in the rulebooks.)

-A first level character with NO firearms training still has a 50% chance to hit any standing target within 60'.

As KS says, "One might think of the dodge roll not so much as the character seeing and moving out of the way of an energy blast, but as a combination of an attacker's penalty for shooting at a moving target and the luck of the intended victim. It is always more difficult to hit a moving target than it is to hit a stationary target. Even today, people 'dodge the bullet' by means of running in a zig zag pattern, executing quick movement, or by leaps and rolls behind cover."

Allowing characters to "dodge" gunfire makes up, to some extent, for the uncanny accuracy that everybody in the game has with firearms.

[SkyeFyre]

I agree. Although I do not apply P.P. bonuses to shooting, they have their own bonuses. I leave the dodging as layed out in the main rule book. Sometimes I'll change things up a bit, but honestly I've had sooooo many players die when I implemented the -10 rule... just because of the luck of the roll. So sometimes if I feel like going for a more realistic game, I keep the -10, but allow the players their bonuses as well.

but personally I just say stick with the main rule book rules.

[PigLickJF]

That makes sense in situations where characters are locked in combat and one is using a sword while the other uses a gun. Unfortunately it loses much weight as the ranges get longer and longer and the variance of as little as a millimeter on the muzzle can move the strike of a round as much as a meter on the recieving end. Throw in things like sniper rifles or invisible opponents and it gets even more complicated to rationalize.

No, the variance increasing at range only helps matters. It's difficult to move that precisely that quickly. If you're aiming at someone that far away, it's difficult enough to stay on target if they're standing still, for exatly the reason you mentioned. If they moving quickly and erratically, it's going to be much more difficult, because of the precision and speed of movement needed to keep a bead.

As for sniping and invisibility, they don't pose problems in most situations, because you can't dodge attacks you don't know are incoming ( I do agree that a Juicer's ability to dodge anything, whether he knows about it or not is too much, and we've houseruled that one down). So if your opponent is invisible, or sniping you from range, you can't dodge those attacks.

PigLick

[KromeLizard]

The rule is unadulterated garbage. The only thing worse was the retarded and half-assed way it was introduced to the game.

[grandmaster z0b]

I find it amusing that some people seem to think that you when you're dodging you are trying to actually dodge a beam of light from the time it leaves the barrell to the time it hits you. If your trying to dodge then you are clearly trying to dodge the attack, not pull a neo and move faster than bullets. Whilst it wasn't entirely realistic the old way it did work out in the end as others here have pointed out, and I liked it, you didn't have to add a ton of bonuses and penalties together to work out if some one hit or not.
It dosen't matter whether your trying to dodge a punch, a sword, and arrow or a beam of light; you are reacting to the attackers movements by moving out of the way of the incoming attack not moving while the punch is in mid air or the trigger is being pulled.

A juicer or crazy should be hard to hit with a gun or a sword, in fact once your in range I would argue it is much easier to hit a moving target with a sword than a bullet. A moving target (ie one that is trying to dodge) is very hard to hit with a gun whereas hitting a large moving taget isn't that hard with a large weapon. A hand weapon can be parried relatively easily however, whereas a gun cannot. Which I think is both realistic and game balanced.

I believe that anyone that has tried to shoot a moving target will know what I mean. Imagine trying to shoot a baseball that someone has just thrown at you compared to hitting it with a bat.

[grandmaster z0b]

I find it amusing that some people seem to think that you when you're dodging you are trying to actually dodge a beam of light from the time it leaves the barrell to the time it hits you.

Well I'm glad I was able to provide you with some entertainment then.

I find the concept amusing, i'm not trying to make fun of you. Palladium never really described it very well in the original book, and made it seem that you were actually trying to dodge the attack after it had comenced. It wasn't until the conversion book that they put it properly into perspective. Then changed it all again in the GMG back to the original idea with the -10, which is still ridiculous, if your trying to dodge a beam of light then it should be -100 ie. impossible. The only way one could dodge a bullet or laser is to move before they attacked.

If this is the case though, and you ignore the -10 rule, does the player have to announce their intention of dodging before the attacker rolls? If so what happens when the attack misses completely? Does the defender still lose an attack? I'm lenient in my games in this regard, i will let a player decide whether to dodge after the attack roll, but only for simplicities sake not for realism.

[Ice Dragon]

* best Obi-wan voice * There is no -10 rule. This is not the rule you are seeking. Go on *end Obi-wan voice *

I do not use this rule.

But wasn't there a board rule not to touch this topic again ???

[Zer0 Kay]

-10, but bonuses are allowed as well.

also, -3 to shoot a moving target, -1 more per 10 mph/15 spd it's moving, so against fast movers it kinda balances out.

Makes the SAMAS and NG-X9 Samson pretty deadly, since they can fire on the run. Suddenly the glitterboy aint as tough as it seems.

So do you use the old TMNT or N&S (non-revised) Spd bonuses?

[Zer0 Kay]

Then changed it all again in the GMG back to the original idea with the -10, which is still ridiculous, if your trying to dodge a beam of light then it should be -100 ie. impossible. The only way one could dodge a bullet or laser is to move before they attacked.

How amusing. Then the next time my players get into combat I'll just say: You see four Coalition Grunts on a patrol with guns drawn, they rapidy approach and inform you that the Elf must leave immediately or be imprisoned and disected alive. Are you dodging out of their aim?
Players: Yes.
Me: Ok, you deftly dodge to the side like a dervish in an incredible display of athletic prowess. The Grunts just stand there smiling - they seem to be entertained by your acrobatics. Don't forget to mark off an action. Are you continuing to dodge their aim?
Players: What? Screw that, let's just rush them.
Me: Ok, then they open fire.

I think what zOb meant was that in order to dodge an attack maybe the characters would have to declare if they are going to dodge an attack. NOT that they commence dodging, resulting in the PCs athletic display of stupidity in your example. CS troops approaching with their weapons drawn aren't attacking. The PCs state that if the Deadboys move to attack they will dodge. There is often body language before an attack. That is with the Deadboys close enough for the PCs to examine.

If they are farther off and you can't see exactly what they're doing. I'd agree with your example. You see the guy hold up his rifle (he was ordered to take aim and fire only if there is hostile movement) you dodge expecting incoming fire. Nothing happens, you stop. The other Deadboys approach you raise your rifle (as insurance, but the covering Deadboy doesn't know that and shoots, you didn't know it was coming and get hit.) Maybe instead of the other Db approaching they wait for you to complete your "dodge", finish (it is only supposed to last one attack that is why you loose one while your dancing around not keeping your eye on the opponent. Where as autododge you likely simply sidestep or perform a single handed cartwheel, or even more outrageous anime/martial arts movie feat of acrobatics, while keeping your firearm trained on your attacker) then they shoot as you prepare for you next action.

[glitterboy2098]

1) decalring you are gonna dodge (and what type of dodge) should be required, no matter what kind of attack. (other wise the players would only dodge shots they know hit [IE a successful to-hit], and thus not waste an action or auto-dodge on a shot that misses. making them declare a dodge prior to the firer rolling to hit, and they still lose an attack or auto-dodge even if the shot misses, makes for a more realistic situation [how many people can tell if a bullet will hit them or not? no-one. so if a guns leveled at you, you dive for cover, regardless of the odds of the bullet hitting you.])

2) the _10 rule works, with some clarifications.

arrows/crossbow bolts/thrown spears should be around -5 to -8
(depends on the range the farther away the fireer, the less accurate the aim, and with arrows you can see the flight and guess the aim.)

bullets -10, -8 if rifles at really close range (rifles tend to be easier to aim at longer ranges, at close range [less than 10 feet] they tend to be tough to aim right)

energy weapons should be around -12 to -14, with lasers being the lower number (aiming a laser is much tougher than a slug thrower. with a laser, if your hand so much as twitches it can totally throw off the aim)


bursts are not dodgeable, making MG's very deadly.

the following can try to dodge:

any charichter with auto-dodge

any bot/PA able to run over 30 mph (and has to be travelling at that speed, or a greater one. this is because its harder to hit a moving target, and the target can juke out of the way really easily.)

exempt from the -10 rule:
all aircraft/helicopters (come on, this is a given.)
any flight capable PA or bot flying over 100 mph (at which point they basically behave like aircraft)

[Zer0 Kay]

1) decalring you are gonna dodge (and what type of dodge) should be required, no matter what kind of attack. (other wise the players would only dodge shots they know hit [IE a successful to-hit], and thus not waste an action or auto-dodge on a shot that misses. making them declare a dodge prior to the firer rolling to hit, and they still lose an attack or auto-dodge even if the shot misses, makes for a more realistic situation [how many people can tell if a bullet will hit them or not? no-one. so if a guns leveled at you, you dive for cover, regardless of the odds of the bullet hitting you.])

2) the _10 rule works, with some clarifications.

arrows/crossbow bolts/thrown spears should be around -5 to -8
(depends on the range the farther away the fireer, the less accurate the aim, and with arrows you can see the flight and guess the aim.)

bullets -10, -8 if rifles at really close range (rifles tend to be easier to aim at longer ranges, at close range [less than 10 feet] they tend to be tough to aim right)

energy weapons should be around -12 to -14, with lasers being the lower number (aiming a laser is much tougher than a slug thrower. with a laser, if your hand so much as twitches it can totally throw off the aim)


bursts are not dodgeable, making MG's very deadly.

the following can try to dodge:

any charichter with auto-dodge

any bot/PA able to run over 30 mph (and has to be travelling at that speed, or a greater one. this is because its harder to hit a moving target, and the target can juke out of the way really easily.)

exempt from the -10 rule:
all aircraft/helicopters (come on, this is a given.)
any flight capable PA or bot flying over 100 mph (at which point they basically behave like aircraft)

Agree on everything except the burst if your moving your still harder to hit. If it wasn't so how did we win at Normandy? How did anyone in the beach assault survive? So a hovering helecopter is exempt from the -10?

[ghost2020]

I hate the -10 rule, we had lots of character death without it.
It still chews up an attack/action so it costs plenty.

Remember, according the main book, you get +1 every 3 or 4 levels with WP guns. So there is a bonus to hit.

Plus a little burst fire, as per the rules in the main book, and it's all very deadly. Even better if one goes by the 3 round x2, 6 round x 4, 9 rounds x 6 for damage (single shot damage). Works perfect, even with power packs.

It never made any sense and why this rule ever came out to 'fix' the problem players is beyond me.

Rifts, as a game is very playable and fun. The main book still has the best rule set (burst fire, wp bonuses, etc.). All the stuff that's been added (-10, changing the burst fire rules, and the x10 burst fire is awful) has pretty much been crap.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Rock on -10. Killer of muchkins everywhere.

Totally agree.

I find the rule realistic and it acts as a good incentive for my players not to stand there like morons and shoot.

[Dr. Doom III]

But Josh... your players don't really have an option but to stand there and shoot. They can't dodge.

Yeah but now they are smart to stand there and shoot.

[Killer Cyborg]

Originally you would be able to fire a burst of rounds ranging from 20%, 50%, or the whole clip to do varying ranges of damage, this is one of the reasons for the Glitterboy being resistant to Laser Weaponry, (C-12 on full auto would demolish most things, 4d6x10 mdc!) (P.S. this is why the CS were supposed to be the best in the RMB they are the only ones with fully automatic MDC weapons!)

Well, the C-12's rate of fire is up for debate (see the "fixing the C-12" topic).
Also, any weapon in the main book with ROF: Standard (that wasn't a pulse weapon or railgun) could fire a full-clip burst.

[Saitou Hajime]

Do you have any idea how many times I seen this topic! dozens! quit it!