Rifts Ronin O.C.C. question

[Pox]

Also, in addition to teaching any disciples...the Ronin would have to be at least level 12 in order to be able to create the semi-runic Daisho (Page 47 under Zanji Shinjinken-Ryo description), unless the student is either using standard SD weps, vibro-weapons, or in the very rare case a spare pair the Ronin had with him/her

I just got an idea while typing this...could a Boken(sp?) be crafted using a branch from a millenium tree?...hmmmmm.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I know it says that the Ronin gets the same O.C.C. skills and O.C.C. related skills to chose from with a different set of choices for secondary skills. Does the Ronin get the same special training and mastery as the Samurai. The Way of the Horse and the Bow, Daisho: The Great and Small-Samurai Swordsmanship, and Chi M.D. Death Blow if they start as a Ronin and not a disgraced Samurai? Also, if a Ronin were Rifted to good old North America could they train an orphan to be a Ronin? Could that character then use a vibro-large sword and sabre then as their Daisho or not?

they have all the powers of the samurai. they ARE samuri, just masterless. they have ALL the same powers and training.

Katana and wakazashi are the Daisho. NOTHING else.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Katana and wakazashi are the Daisho. NOTHING else.

Point of fact: the No-Dachi (two-handed sword) is sometimes included in the Daisho. (Not a system point, a language point.) I've also heard the Tanto (dagger) included, but never by a knowledgable source.

I don't know that I wouldn't allow someone to use some other pair of large-and-small, lightly-curved, very sharp and fairly lightweight swords with the same techniques. I might impose a penalty on any exotic maneuver, like a draw-cut. I don't know that I'd allow a vibro-sword: they don't function by being sharp, for one thing.

I was speaking of the rules. not real life. we all know that Palladium Books constanly ignores it.

[Svartalf]

Actually... the Ronin OCC is so like the Samurai that the two can be considered as identical, and the latter referred to whenever there's a question about the former.

The only difference is that a ronin a) is not attached to a landed clan or lord, though of samurai birth/origins
b) is free to be interested in tech stuff, if ready to take the scorn and likely ostracism that will probably follow within the Empire.

A high level Ronin coming to America could train an apprentice, but kenjutsu works specifically and only with japanese style swords (question of grip and balance), so he'd have to have katana style vibroblades made.

[Svartalf]

I just got an idea while typing this...could a Boken(sp?) be crafted using a branch from a millenium tree?...hmmmmm.

Most certainly. vampires and soupies of all kinds will just love it

[Svartalf]

Katana and wakazashi are the Daisho. NOTHING else.

Point of fact: the No-Dachi (two-handed sword) is sometimes included in the Daisho. (Not a system point, a language point.) I've also heard the Tanto (dagger) included, but never by a knowledgable source.
.

Fact, I've never heard of the O dachi being part of the dai-sho as such (too big to carry "in mufti" passed through the sash), but of course, a combat ready samurai could carry one instead of the katana... just forget about doing any ni-to (two sword) style stuff with that...

Actually, I wonder why the "samurai" sword styles developed for N&SS and Rifts Japan are both derivatives from Musashi's Ni ten Ryû... sure that two hand fighting is nifty... culturally, it's also pretty unusual.

As for the tantô being part of the dai-sho, it comes from a use for samurai to carry one instead of the wakizashi when combat ready, that is, wearing armor... which means that a lot of samurai could wind up having a mystic tantô instead of a proper wakizashi.... unless they are mostly ceremonial retainers.

BTW, you could allow vibro blades... the basic blade is probably quite sharp, and the energy field does not affect handling.

[Nekira Sudacne]

hmmmm. . .

well, as far as just what composes on the daisho's blades. . .

you couldn't just substitue the katana and wakasashi for other blades and expect them to work right off the bat. the design, shape, and balance are too different.

However. . .

nothing would really stop you from developing similar techniques with new blades, and incorperating them into Zanji. new Kata's if you will.

of course, you couldn't at first level, but if you constantly practice and train, I would let you slowly gain bonuses equal to the Daisho.

you'd have to be a high level, at least 8, before you could really start getting the full effects, but in essence you will have change it.

Adaptation. it's what's needed sometimes.

[Svartalf]

A tanto is often considered a companion to the Daisho. Most often you can throw it at an opponent if you are in a bind (unlikely). It can also be used in place of the Wakazachi for sepuka, the ritual suicide. The Fan and War Fan, however, are often used in Dashio katas for show and defense.

What do you mean? that the samurai actually carries * 3 * blades? never heard of that... by my sources, the tantô could be worn instead of the wakizashi, not in addition to it.

and careful about throwing it... they are usually not well balanced for that, and it takes great skill at shuriken jutsu to pull it off with results.

Actually ... I wonder if the use of the Wakizashi for seppuku is not some kind of urban (perhaps gaijin) legend... I know for a fact that formal (or should I say judicial?) seppuku in the Tokugawa era was performed with a dagger.

and don't mix things up. a general may use a tessen or other fan on the battlefield, and carry it *in addition to* his dai-sho (in whatever form, quite likely tachi instead of a classic katana and tantô)...

and you mean that some kendô schools teach 2 weapon katas with a fan instead of the short blade?

[Svartalf]

Frankly Nek ... I don't think that zanji-Shinjinken Ry^^u is all that adaptable...

the Japanese, over several centuries (say 6 ... the original ken arrived from China in the 7th century, and the classical tachi/katana type blade was definitely developed in the late 12th, or maybe 13th century (about the end of the Gempei wars or during the Kamakura period) a kind of blade that, in shape and metallurgical qualities is pretty unique, and in the centuries that followed, they developed a technique that is as unique, being specifically adapted to the swords it is used with...

If a samurai go rifted away from Japan, and lost his swords... I'd say he was in trouble. Sure he's got a fairly efficient HTH fighting style, and has WP swords... but he'd need some practice time before enjoying any bonuses with Western style blades... and a number of the bonuses and techniques of Zanji would just be lost (including the 2 sword way of fighting)

[Nekira Sudacne]

Frankly Nek ... I don't think that zanji-Shinjinken Ry^^u is all that adaptable...

the Japanese, over several centuries (say 6 ... the original ken arrived from China in the 7th century, and the classical tachi/katana type blade was definitely developed in the late 12th, or maybe 13th century (about the end of the Gempei wars or during the Kamakura period) a kind of blade that, in shape and metallurgical qualities is pretty unique, and in the centuries that followed, they developed a technique that is as unique, being specifically adapted to the swords it is used with...

If a samurai go rifted away from Japan, and lost his swords... I'd say he was in trouble. Sure he's got a fairly efficient HTH fighting style, and has WP swords... but he'd need some practice time before enjoying any bonuses with Western style blades... and a number of the bonuses and techniques of Zanji would just be lost (including the 2 sword way of fighting)

that's why I said you have to be 8th level or so. more likely 10th or 11th. need time and practice.

[Svartalf]

I know that... but frankly, there's just no converting from Japanese ni-ten ryû kind of fighting to western style rapier and dagger... (or saber and short sword) the two are just TOO different... not the same HTH skill at all.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I know that... but frankly, there's just no converting from Japanese ni-ten ryû kind of fighting to western style rapier and dagger... (or saber and short sword) the two are just TOO different... not the same HTH skill at all.

yep. that's why it'd only be EQUIVILNET with equivlient bonuses.

the style itself would be very dissimilar, but in game terms, the statical bonuses would be the same.

[Vrykolas2k]

Then again... there is always the KEN, a two-edged weopon which pre-dates the tachi {but not the choku-to}, which in turn actually pre-dates the katana. The ken is quite effective in kenjutsu.
I think they should have made more than two "schools" for japanese sword in Rifts Japan, they have Zanji Shinjinken Ryo and kendo... but many schools teach only the use of one sword, so I think that should have been included, and also many teach to attack quickly and not worry so much about defense {higher Initiative and Strike than parry}, and to avoid blows {higher Dodge}.

[Svartalf]

I'm sorry. When I said it was a compainon, I ment a Smauri COULD use it. Useing other things causes sham or dishonor to the warrior and his Blades. What would a Samuri do if he used a nunchuk. He wouldn't, if would bring him dishonor. He could instead use his Fan or Tanto. Little known stuff, man! The wepons that were used in combat were limited to the Dasho, Tanto, Fan, Naginata, a very perticular mace although the name escapes me, and the War Fan.
Fans are nasty too! The regular fan was topped in lead and the war fan was straight Iorn! Block WACK!

I just don't follow you...

What do you mean about using other things causing shame or dishonor? sure, using nunchuks isn't really dignified, but it's no grounds for social reproof... after all, Musashi fought with staves (ok, bokken) instead of swords for a large part of his career, and wasn't regarded any less highly for it.

About the combat weapons, you're forgetting the bow, and the yari (spear).
Samurai serving as police also commonly used the jitte (a sai variation), as well as rather obscure pole arms like the sodegarami or sasumata.. And I forget the guys who indulged in esoteric stuff like axes, or shuriken, not to mention the tetsubo for which Benkei, the companion of Minamoto no Yoshitsune was famous..

As for the mace, I can't complete, your mention is about the first time I hear of the Japanese using such a weapon

[Vrykolas2k]

The splugorth are the only ones known to craft weapons from the Millenium Trees, and this causes them great pain. Any bokken would be a corrupted millenium weapon. Funny, to consider a weapon built so that one could train without killing, evil.

Not exactly... I'd think the tree itself could make a variation of a staff that would be boken-like rather than bo-like. And the Millenium Druid could probably request a similar weopon, as could the Japanese equivelent {which I suppise would be a sohei of some sort}.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Heelhook, from what little I know, you are right.

Niten-Ryu styles (There are few that I've been told.) are design for multiple opponents, where as the single sword is better suited for dueling.

Or so I was told...

Well, it seems to me that it'd be the other way around. Seems to me that two sword style is specifically for fighting a single opponent in an unarmored duel. You just can't get the kind of control, strength and mobility that you can with two swords than with one.

In my opinion, nittoichi style didn't catch didn't catch on for the simple reason that its not a particularly efficient nor effective way to fight. The only reason that it exists in the first place is because Musashi was obsessed with using two swords at once since he was young. Of course, Musashi eventually got it to work because he happened to be an unsually large and strong in addition to being an exceptional swordsman, one of the best in recorded Japanese history. For everyone else, I don't think this is a particularly good way to fight. In fact, I think its a pretty INefficient way of fighting. I'm nowhere close to being an expert but that almost every other Japanese ryu rejected this particular aspect of Musashi's style and philosophy while embracing everything else seems to bear me out.

Katanas are two handed swords, I wish fantasy game designers would understand this.

they likely do. but a blade in each hand is a hell of a lot cooler, which is what they're selling.

[Svartalf]

The splugorth are the only ones known to craft weapons from the Millenium Trees, and this causes them great pain. Any bokken would be a corrupted millenium weapon. Funny, to consider a weapon built so that one could train without killing, evil.

And will you please tell me why a Tree would not give a branch suitable to make a bokken to a Friend?

[Svartalf]

Not only is/was Niten Ichi Ryu a rare style, but even though its a distinguishing feature of this school, the two sword aspect is only a small part of their entire system. Not being a student of this ryu, I wouldn't know for sure, but I think there are more single sword forms than the two sword forms.

I'd also venture to guess that the two sword stuff was for a specific purpose or for specific situations, considering that on recorded duels, Musashi himself used the nito style sometimes, and the one sword style in others. If I'm wrong about this, please correct me, but having seen some Niten Ichi ryu's nitto kata, I'd think that this was more specifically for dueling situations against unarmored opponents as opposed to battlefield usage.

Anyways, a HUGE misconception in the fantasy gaming world is that the katana is a one handed weapon that can be used two handed, when in reality, its vice versa. The katana is a two handed weapon that CAN be used with one hand, but only if you've had very specific training for it. 99% of kendo, iaido, iaijutsu, kenjutsu and/or comprehensive Japanese fighting ryus students use one sword with two hands.

I can't tell how much single vs two sword work the Niten Ryû includes, being no student of Kendô... but her's what I've learned.

Your presumption that the two sword forms would be for duelling, as opposed to battlefield, use seems quite correct, as the custom for battlefield was to replace the longer wakizashi by a short, easy to draw, tantô (dagger) ... actually, it was more of an armor wearing custom than a proper "battlefield" one, but it is there, and is abundantly attested in illustrations.

I may be wrong there, but I feel that the two sword stuff was used mainly for such manoeuvers as the famous "fire and stones" move... essentially a weaponbreaking or disarming move. there is little evidence that I've managed to uncover that the style would have been used similarly to the European "sword and dagger" styles, that is the short blade would be used for parrying and defense while the long one be used offensively. Probably because the tsuba is too small to make the weapon into a very effective parrying tool, and because the katana is too long and heavy to be very comfortable used one handed... so you had to make full use of your two weapons to finish the fight quickly, before your right arm tired.

[Vrykolas2k]

Not only is/was Niten Ichi Ryu a rare style, but even though its a distinguishing feature of this school, the two sword aspect is only a small part of their entire system. Not being a student of this ryu, I wouldn't know for sure, but I think there are more single sword forms than the two sword forms.

I'd also venture to guess that the two sword stuff was for a specific purpose or for specific situations, considering that on recorded duels, Musashi himself used the nito style sometimes, and the one sword style in others. If I'm wrong about this, please correct me, but having seen some Niten Ichi ryu's nitto kata, I'd think that this was more specifically for dueling situations against unarmored opponents as opposed to battlefield usage.

Anyways, a HUGE misconception in the fantasy gaming world is that the katana is a one handed weapon that can be used two handed, when in reality, its vice versa. The katana is a two handed weapon that CAN be used with one hand, but only if you've had very specific training for it. 99% of kendo, iaido, iaijutsu, kenjutsu and/or comprehensive Japanese fighting ryus students use one sword with two hands.

As I said in an earlier post... there ARE more single-sword forms. As for the katana being one-handed or two-handed, it's BOTH and was always intended to be both one and two-handed.
Some swordsmen prefer to use the two-sword technique, others one-sword... it depends on the swordsman in question, and his/ her school. The school I have studied since the age of five is primarily single-weopon, but there is some training to use both. Though my height requires me to use an o-katana, which is a bit longer than a typical katana or tachi, and that makes using two-swords more awkward. One can train enough in a two-sword style to not be hampered at all, but for the most part it is easier to use a single blade.

[Warpig]

......... Round-eye thinks he can make a white Samurai.

*Blah*

Someone saw the Last Samurai, with Tom Cruise, too many times

[Vrykolas2k]

......... Round-eye thinks he can make a white Samurai.

*Blah*

Someone saw the Last Samurai, with Tom Cruise, too many times

Sometimes I really hate movies.
They turn things into fads, and annoy actual practioners of martial arts. I've studied kenjutsu since I was very young, before Tom Cruise was even a known actor. I think the movie Shogun was out at the time, though...
Now, just about everyone goes out and buys a stainless steel katana and thinks they know what they're doing.
I'd say Darwinism in action, but they don't usually manage to get themselves killed in this merciful day and age.
At any rate... the Ronin OCC is a fun thing to play in Rifts.
As for True Daisho damages... I don't read anywhere a specific allusion to their not being able to do damage to MD structures or robots, et cetera.

[Svartalf]

As for True Daisho damages... I don't read anywhere a specific allusion to their not being able to do damage to MD structures or robots, et cetera.

Rifts Japan p 46, description of the True Daishô... under damage, it is said the damage is SDC to "mortal foes" and MDC to "creatures of magic and supernatural beings"

As robots and other tech MDC structures are definitely not magic/supernatural, it ensues those are "mortal", and thus not subject to being cut by such weapons.

[Vrykolas2k]

As for True Daisho damages... I don't read anywhere a specific allusion to their not being able to do damage to MD structures or robots, et cetera.

Rifts Japan p 46, description of the True Daishô... under damage, it is said the damage is SDC to "mortal foes" and MDC to "creatures of magic and supernatural beings"

As robots and other tech MDC structures are definitely not magic/supernatural, it ensues those are "mortal", and thus not subject to being cut by such weapons.

So... if two samurai wearing samurai BA got into a duel they would do nothing to eachother.
No offense but that reasoning is tres pathetique.
On the same page if I'm not mistaken it also has two damages listed for the ancient weopons... so which do you use?

[Vrykolas2k]

As for True Daisho damages... I don't read anywhere a specific allusion to their not being able to do damage to MD structures or robots, et cetera.

Rifts Japan p 46, description of the True Daishô... under damage, it is said the damage is SDC to "mortal foes" and MDC to "creatures of magic and supernatural beings"

As robots and other tech MDC structures are definitely not magic/supernatural, it ensues those are "mortal", and thus not subject to being cut by such weapons.

So... if two samurai wearing samurai BA got into a duel they would do nothing to eachother.
No offense but that reasoning is tres pathetique.
On the same page if I'm not mistaken it also has two damages listed for the ancient weopons... so which do you use?

Pathetic? No, just badly worded. But it IS accurate. As is your description as to what happens between two Rifts Samurai. But then, with so few of them, do you want to have the Iaijutsu duel to be lethal? You could use that reasoning...

As for the damage, YES it is printed twice, BUT the important numbers don't change. Page 46 states that they do 6d6 M.D.C, and 4d6 M.D.C. for the Katana and Wakizashi respectively, THEN down below they say that the Katana does 6d6 S.D.C to mortal foes, and 6d6 M.D.C. to creatures of Magic and Supernatural Beings. The Wakizashi entry states the same but at the reduced damage of 4d6. However, if your blade is a PRE-Rifts heirloom then the damages jump to 1d6x10 and 1d4x10 again respectively, but those blades are VERY rare. However, it does say to simply add 2d6 for ancient (Pre-rifts weapons) which means 8d6 and 6d6... So where did they get 1d6/1d4x10?

Actually FYI, in the 1600's when Miyamoto Musashi lived, lethal duels were frown upon, so Bokken were allowed to be used.

But then, as a another point of contention: Wormwood natives can't hurt each other with their fists. They are M.D.C. but don't have supernatural strength. Their weapons do M.D. but... They can't.

But even a duel with boken can be lethal. Personally, I just think they poorly worded the damages. I really don't see any reason why a True Daisho couldn't damage armour or whatever.

[Svartalf]

Vryk. I'm going to demand an apology.

For some reason, I resent being called pathetic when my reasoning is flawless.

The reason why two New Empire samurai CAN hurt each other when duelling, is that their body armor is actually a magical item... thus vulnerable to samurai blades.

I must still stand by my opinion that, as per published rules (and whatever the individual GM may do and decide notwithstanding), if the New empire were to go to war with the Republic, or Ichto, they would probably get a nasty trouncing, because they just couldn't hurt the foe... from foot troops in TECH armor to giant bots...

Of course, I just wonder on what would be a good or logical solution to the much more likely case where samurai would fight Otomo troops, and how come Otomo is not Shogun of all Nippon outside the Republic...

I may have to reverse myself and decide that those swords just do SDC to SDC structures and beings, and MDC to MDC foes, but that would definitely be going against the book.

[Vrykolas2k]

Vryk. I'm going to demand an apology.

For some reason, I resent being called pathetic when my reasoning is flawless.

The reason why two New Empire samurai CAN hurt each other when duelling, is that their body armor is actually a magical item... thus vulnerable to samurai blades.

I must still stand by my opinion that, as per published rules (and whatever the individual GM may do and decide notwithstanding), if the New empire were to go to war with the Republic, or Ichto, they would probably get a nasty trouncing, because they just couldn't hurt the foe... from foot troops in TECH armor to giant bots...

Of course, I just wonder on what would be a good or logical solution to the much more likely case where samurai would fight Otomo troops, and how come Otomo is not Shogun of all Nippon outside the Republic...

I may have to reverse myself and decide that those swords just do SDC to SDC structures and beings, and MDC to MDC foes, but that would definitely be going against the book.

Ah, but there's the rub... enchanted armour isn't a creature, it's a construct, so the katana still would do nothing... and you made my point for me about Otomo {or for that matter, Ichto...}. The samurai is defenseless against ninja 'borgs and cyber-samurai... so I guess when it says in the book, there are nasty duels between cyber-samurai and true samurai, they're only nasty insofar as the cyber-samurai is always sleft the winner and having to clean his vibro-daisho...