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the system was simple in it's use and execution but like many simple solutions just don't work quite right.

at higher levels the method makes for too powerful mages, revering the balance from a kid with stones killing a mage to a high level juicer/mind melter, even higher than the mage, don't have a chance.

I currently am using the rules as layed out in RMB, but am working on my own system to hopefully strike a better balance. the kid with rocks is a definate problem that needs to be adressed.

I like your system, it's just not quite right IMHO.

and only a stupid mage dosn't wear armor. if you rely only on magic you deserve to be killed.

likewise, if you only rely on tech you deserve to be killed.

and if you only rely on psionics you deserve to be killed.

the smart thing is to use them ALL. what idiot limits themselve to only one?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:the smart thing is to use them ALL. what idiot limits themselve to only one?

Uh, how about the huge numbers of normal humans and other dbees with no psionics or magical abilities?

PigLick

point. Refrased: if you have the choice, what idiot dosn't?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I like your system, it's just not quite right IMHO.

For starters, it's my system, not his.

Beyond that, we just got finished discussing this here:
http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/foru ... hp?t=25549

Maybe I can settle this once and for all. I doubt it, but here we go. Here is how the canon is laid out:

The book rules state that a mage, regardless of level of experience, must take half of his attacks to cast a level 1-6 spell, all of his attacks for level 7-10 spells, or two melees for level 11-15 spells.

During the spell-casting period, the mage cannot attack, parry, dodge, or take even a single point of damage, getting knocked down, etc.

This means that a first level mage can cast Blinding Flash (possibly the most fundamental of spells) in about two melee actions. A 15th level mage can cast this same spell with the exact same effects in the exact same amount of time.

It takes the same amount of time for a mage (regardless of level) to open a dimensional portal (at the cost of 1000 PPE) as it does to perform a Remove Curse (140 PPE).

A lot of this stuff is broken. I think we all agree. Even Kevin uses a house rule instead of what is in the books.

Now... addressing the argument that PPE Channeling makes mages at high levels too powerful. A 15th level Ley Line Walker takes the following number of actions (assuming 7 attacks per melee) to cast the following spells, compared with the normal rules.

Blinding Flash -- 1 action vs. 3.5
Armor of Ithan -- 1 action vs. 3.5
Fire Ball -- 1 action vs. 3.5
Wind Rush -- 1 action vs. 7
Purge Self -- 2 actions vs. 7
Summon Shadow Beast -- 3 actions vs. 7
Remove Curse -- 3 actions vs. 14
Shadow Wall -- 7 actions vs. 14
Annhialate -- 10 actions vs. 14
Resurrection -- 10 actions vs. 14
Dimensional Portal -- 16 actions vs. 14
Ley Line Shutdown -- 47 actions vs. 14
Transformation -- 31 actions vs. 14

Let's compare this using a seventh level LLW with 5 attacks per melee

Blinding Flash -- 1 action vs. 2.5
Armor of Ithan -- 1 action vs. 2.5
Fire Ball -- 1 action vs. 2.5
Wind Rush -- 1 action vs. 5
Purge Self -- 2 actions vs. 5
Summon Shadow Beast -- 3 actions vs. 5
Remove Curse -- 4 actions vs. 10
Shadow Wall -- 12 actions vs. 10
Annhialate -- 18 actions vs. 10
Resurrection -- 19 actions vs. 10
Dimensional Portal -- 29 actions vs. 10
Ley Line Shutdown -- 86 actions vs. 10
Transformation -- 31 actions vs. 10

One more time with a 3rd level LLW with 4 attacks

Blinding Flash -- 1 action vs. 2
Armor of Ithan -- 1 action vs. 2
Fire Ball -- 1 action vs. 2
Wind Rush -- 2 action vs. 4
Purge Self -- 5 actions vs. 4
Summon Shadow Beast -- 10 actions vs. 4
Remove Curse -- 10 actions vs. 8
Shadow Wall -- 27 actions vs. 8
Annhialate -- 40 actions vs. 8
Resurrection -- 44 actions vs. 8
Dimensional Portal -- 54 actions vs. 8
Ley Line Shutdown -- 200 actions vs. 8
Transformation -- 134 actions vs. 8

So, what we clearly see here is that while a super-high level LLW does have an advantage in the majority of spells he will cast when using PPE Channeling, it isn't true across the board. We also see some early advantages in low-level spells, but those top off quickly.

Generally speaking, the average LLW will be able to cast spells that are below level 11 faster using PPE Channeling, but slower for higher-level spells.

There are some specific spells I wish had different PPE values (higher or lower), but those are the exception... not the rule. Overall, the PPE Channeling rules have an averaging effect, making low-level spells a bit easier to cast, while the highest level spells are more difficult.

Jason Richards wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I like your system, it's just not quite right IMHO.

For starters, it's my system, not his.

in case you didn't notice, I just copy/pasted my reply when you asked the same question, rather than type it all over again

This means that a first level mage can cast Blinding Flash (possibly the most fundamental of spells) in about two melee actions. A 15th level mage can cast this same spell with the exact same effects in the exact same amount of time.

I dont' see the problem here

It takes the same amount of time for a mage (regardless of level) to open a dimensional portal (at the cost of 1000 PPE) as it does to perform a Remove Curse (140 PPE).

or here.

my problem with the magic system as is is combat speed only not by level.

Personally I really like the rules Jason Richards (aka AliasMan02) got published in Rifter 21. Liked them so much I immedately adopted them for House Rule game play. However, I did run into a problem that I wasn't too keen on pretty quick. By the time a caster is 6th level, he can cast virtually ANY spell ranging from level 1-9 in a single melee action! That seemed a bit extreme and excessive to me making the casters too powerful too quickly. So to rectify the situation I modified his superb rules to make them more to my liking, (and perhaps some of your guy's liking as well).

What I did was I changed the progression system so a caster can cast a spell that is equal to his level of experience in a single melee action, on the average, (e.g. a 5th level Mage can can cast a 5th level spell in one or two melee actions, depending on PPE costs for the given spell). To achieve this I took the average PPE requirements of every spell for that spell strength level and assigned it to the caster once he achieved that level of experience. So instead of getting a steady +5 PPE per level per melee action, I made it a set value at level X per melee action. And as for the "Specialists and Dabblers", I kept the 3:5 ratio Jason used to distinguish the two and assigned 60% of the listed PPE for the caster at those levels. So when a Specialist uses a spell outside of his specialized vocation, he can only channel 60% his normal PPE per action during the weaving of that spell. Dabblers on the other hand are stuck at the 60% flow no matter what they do. And as for Supernatural Creatures, they get a +40% bonus (again, keeping with the original ratios) and ture Creatures of Magic, they get to Double the PPE channeling of their listed OCC mage class.

The Leveled PPE per action chart looks like this:
Level ...... Full Mage .......Specialist's Penalty & Dabblers normal
1................3 PPE...............2 PPE
2................5 PPE...............3 PPE
3................6 PPE...............4 PPE
4................10 PPE.............6 PPE
5................12 PPE.............7 PPE
6................18 PPE.............11 PPE
7................22 PPE.............13 PPE
8................35 PPE.............21 PPE
9................54 PPE.............32 PPE
10..............82 PPE.............49 PPE
11..............139 PPE...........83 PPE
12..............245 PPE...........147 PPE
13..............429 PPE...........257 PPE
14..............574 PPE...........344 PPE
15..............1,110 PPE........666 PPE

What this does is ensure that casters can't cast spells well beyond their level in a single action. It also makes it so the uber-hight level casters can get their super high level spells off as easily as pulling a trigger. However, DO NOT BE SPOOKED BY THE LARGE NUMBERS at the higher levels of experience. Remember, just because a caster can channel his PPE that quickly doesn't mean that he acutally has that much PPE to use in the first place. Even with some good rolling, a 15th level Line Walker is only going to have 260 PPE in his personal reserve. Throw in a Talisman or two and you can have an extra 100. That's not even enough for an Annhilation spell for most, (some get it at a 300 PPE discount). Yes, there are very special magic items that have PPE reserves casters can tap into, and yes, there are times of the year and special places he can use to get extra PPe bonuses, but these are rare and not dependable sourses of PPE that a mage can not rely on 24/7. So though the numbers get excessive at the end, it actually balances itself out.

I like the faster way of P.P.E. channeling and I use it. The limit is the number of P.P.E. a mage has (he/she/it can run dry very fast if he/she/it is not careful).

BTW, I ignore the armor-rule for mages. I still use the rules from RMB.

I like your system DeadBoy and may try it next game. I have also been thinking of a system of giving mages a % chance to cast a spell if they decide to "rush it" ie. do it in one melee action. This % would go up every level but you would subtract the prowl penalty of armour. I like this idea because it makes a mage more powerful in combat, but like a warrior isn't guaranteed success and it also takes into account bulky armour.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:my problem with the magic system as is is combat speed only not by level.

The problem with that is that magic is the one time-based mechanic in a system dominated by "actions". This means that while everyone else doe EVERYTHING faster as they advance in experience (perform skills, shoot a gun, dodge an attack) the mage gets slower relative to everyone else. There is no advancement of any kind in the ability to cast spells aside from the occasional increase in spell strength. That's a broken mechanic that PPE Channeling fixes.

i like the PPE channeling rules. with those, the mage's biggest limiter becomes his PPE reserve. he may be able to toss off spells really fast, but it just means that he uses his PPE faster than he can regain it, so once its gone, he's pretty much useless, unless he has a MDC pistol or other weapon on him, and even then that would only be to cover his retreat, since thats not enough.


it kind of reminds me of the Mana system in Diablo, its really easy to burn through it, but it recharges at such a slow rate normally you have to be selective with your spells at times.

I think the rule is a good one. Heck much better than mine which was to let them cast a spell per melee action they way a psionic uses his powers. I plan to use the channeling rules as soon as someone runs a mage.

We use PPE channeling with PFRPG and it works just fine. Spells can actually be cast in combat. Though I think the PPE sometimes is way off balance. Spells costing 500PPE are sometimes useless, and almost always way to expensive, while low level spells start very good and usually get better because duration/damage/range/etc get better with level. Really sad that level 8 is about the highest spell level that contains usefull spells.

But I'm a AD&D 2ed. fan, which let mages cast every spell they know atleast once.