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I finally had a chance to go home and check my suspicions, in Rifts Africa page 150 under the description of Victor Lazlo and page 152 under the description of Lo Fung we have definitive proof that Rifts Earth is actually the future of Beyond The Supernatural. Especially in the description of Lo Fung it describes how he worked with Victor and others from the Lazlo agency and after Victor disappeared and then how he sensed the coming of the Rifts and was prepared for it.
Also in the description of Victor it mentions how he eventually had to admit to himself that it was his future as many of his books had been re-printed as modern classics, and he met his old friend Lo Fung.
The only other option is that Rifts Earth is a very similar parallel dimension, and even Lo Fung who hasn’t been rifted cannot tell the difference between the Victor Lazlo’s. Either way it is not HU or Robotech.

Not if during the time of the Rifts Lo Fung got rifted in and thought it was just HIS world being torn apart around him. Or we could still have the Amalagam world where a bunch of pre-Rifts worlds merged into one world at the time of the Rifts.




Daniel Stoker

Or... it COULD be possible that it's a universe to itself but some people exist in more than one dimension {like in Sliders}.
Or... it could be that it's BTS.
Or... or... N&S
Or...or... or... TMNT!!!!
Or... hey, ma, I coulda been a contendah!!

Daniel Stoker wrote:Not if during the time of the Rifts Lo Fung got rifted in and thought it was just HIS world being torn apart around him. Or we could still have the Amalagam world where a bunch of pre-Rifts worlds merged into one world at the time of the Rifts.

I don't think your being serious but I want to point something out anyway; there is no reference to Lo Fung being Rifted during the time of Rifts. Quite the opposite, it spefically desribes him sensing, surviving and helping others to survive the time of Rifts. It dosen't say he sensed a Rift, he sensed the time of Rifts and watched Pharaoh Rama-Set go mad as it happened. You think it would say if at any time during this period he suddenly found himself thrown through a rift, it cetainly mentions this happening to Victor Lazlo.

the fire breathing bunny did it!

z0b wrote: I don't think your being serious but I want to point something out anyway; there is no reference to Lo Fung being Rifted during the time of Rifts. Quite the opposite, it spefically desribes him sensing, surviving and helping others to survive the time of Rifts. It dosen't say he sensed a Rift, he sensed the time of Rifts and watched Pharaoh Rama-Set go mad as it happened. You think it would say if at any time during this period he suddenly found himself thrown through a rift, it cetainly mentions this happening to Victor Lazlo.

I was just playing devil's advocate here. Though again, he could have been rifted in via some sort of D-Phase like you see in some of the towns in the Magic Zone. And he still could have had the psychic flashes of what was going to happen to him in the other dimension and then trying to help others survive in a world that he THINKS is the one he was in.


Daniel Stoker

out of a infident amount of diemiensions surely there would
be more than one Victor

z0b wrote:I finally had a chance to go home and check my suspicions, in Rifts Africa page 150 under the description of Victor Lazlo and page 152 under the description of Lo Fung we have definitive proof that Rifts Earth is actually the future of Beyond The Supernatural. Especially in the description of Lo Fung it describes how he worked with Victor and others from the Lazlo agency and after Victor disappeared and then how he sensed the coming of the Rifts and was prepared for it.
Also in the description of Victor it mentions how he eventually had to admit to himself that it was his future as many of his books had been re-printed as modern classics, and he met his old friend Lo Fung.
The only other option is that Rifts Earth is a very similar parallel dimension, and even Lo Fung who hasn’t been rifted cannot tell the difference between the Victor Lazlo’s. Either way it is not HU or Robotech.

As I recall you ranting. It's a parallel with a similar Victor.

z0b wrote:

Daniel Stoker wrote:Not if during the time of the Rifts Lo Fung got rifted in and thought it was just HIS world being torn apart around him. Or we could still have the Amalagam world where a bunch of pre-Rifts worlds merged into one world at the time of the Rifts.

I don't think your being serious but I want to point something out anyway; there is no reference to Lo Fung being Rifted during the time of Rifts. Quite the opposite, it spefically desribes him sensing, surviving and helping others to survive the time of Rifts. It dosen't say he sensed a Rift, he sensed the time of Rifts and watched Pharaoh Rama-Set go mad as it happened. You think it would say if at any time during this period he suddenly found himself thrown through a rift, it cetainly mentions this happening to Victor Lazlo.

Well along your train of thought when you were saying there are multiple VLs. Maybe VL got rifted from his dimension and Lo Fung's VL also got Rifted and BTS's VL happened to appear in Rifts and Rifts isn't BTS's future but the BTS that you think it is because LF worked with another VL in another Lazlo Agency but it's not the LF or the Lazlo Agency from Victor's past. Basically the vampires of Rifts suck in comparison as do many deamons.

Werehunter wrote:While I admit that I haven't bought any new palladium books in a while, I can't understand how some people think Rifts is the same world as Heroes Unlimited.

Probably because Cyberworks and the KLS corporation (creator of the glitterboy) are both major players in HU.

Really, Rifts is none of the other palladium games. It is its own dimension.
I believe Palladium has actually said this before.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

z0b wrote:

Daniel Stoker wrote:Not if during the time of the Rifts Lo Fung got rifted in and thought it was just HIS world being torn apart around him. Or we could still have the Amalagam world where a bunch of pre-Rifts worlds merged into one world at the time of the Rifts.

I don't think your being serious but I want to point something out anyway; there is no reference to Lo Fung being Rifted during the time of Rifts. Quite the opposite, it spefically desribes him sensing, surviving and helping others to survive the time of Rifts. It dosen't say he sensed a Rift, he sensed the time of Rifts and watched Pharaoh Rama-Set go mad as it happened. You think it would say if at any time during this period he suddenly found himself thrown through a rift, it cetainly mentions this happening to Victor Lazlo.

Well along your train of thought when you were saying there are multiple VLs. Maybe VL got rifted from his dimension and Lo Fung's VL also got Rifted and BTS's VL happened to appear in Rifts and Rifts isn't BTS's future but the BTS that you think it is because LF worked with another VL in another Lazlo Agency but it's not the LF or the Lazlo Agency from Victor's past. Basically the vampires of Rifts suck in comparison as do many deamons.

Ummm yeah, that is actually what I was trying to say before, and you are right. It is possible.
Then I read the description in the book and I pretty much decided (IMHO) that because Lo Fung is an ancient dragon he would instinctively know what dimension he was in and whether he had been rifted or D-Phased. In fact I don't know if you've read the description in the book but it does seem to make it quite clear. It is the same Lo Fung as in BTS regardless of whether it's the same Victor Lazlo, and Lo Fung did survive the coming of the Rifts. That's just my opinion, i don't really care if you like it or agree or not, but I think there is evidence to suggest that BTS is Rifts past.

Yes I know and like I said before it is BTS. You were the one saying I was wrong.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Werehunter wrote:While I admit that I haven't bought any new palladium books in a while, I can't understand how some people think Rifts is the same world as Heroes Unlimited.

Probably because Cyberworks and the KLS corporation (creator of the glitterboy) are both major players in HU.

Really, Rifts is none of the other palladium games. It is its own dimension.
I believe Palladium has actually said this before.

Uh who's to say that HU isn't also in BTS universe? Or for that matter N&S? Just because Victor never talks about Ninjas or Superheros doesn't mean that they're not there. Maybe he's a Nega-hero and Nega-spy On the same note the Spys are more interested in "real" world events and the Heros do deal with both.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Yes I know and like I said before it is BTS. You were the one saying I was wrong.

Look i'm sorry if I upset you, i was simply stating my opinion. I don't actually remember ever saying you were wrong, but if I did I hope this makes you feel better.

I WAS WRONG! IT IS BTS! Zer0 Kay was RIGHT! I'M VERY SORRY

Actually Zer0 Kay I just looked through the other thread and I never said you were wrong, even though you may have taken it that way.
I suggested two different ideas and one was that it was a parallel dimension and the other was that it was BTS. Basically your theory seemed to be that all the palladium games worlds had merged into one, which has very little proof. Mine was that it was either BTS or a very close parallel, which has some cannon proof.

I'm not trying to start another argument here, just trying to clear up the confusion.

Vrykolas2k wrote:Or... it COULD be possible that it's a universe to itself but some people exist in more than one dimension {like in Sliders}.
Or... it could be that it's BTS.
Or... or... N&S
Or...or... or... TMNT!!!!
Or... hey, ma, I coulda been a contendah!!

I've always believe characters from HU, BTS, Ninja & Supersies all have their own version of Quinn Mallory so to speak. The reason Lao Fung recognize Victor Lazlo is for all intent and purpose that VL is almost identical to the VL he knew.

Also I remember reading somewhere that even Victor Lazlo doesn't know he went into a parallel world so he believes he's in his own future. Therefore it's quite possible another VL from maybe Ninja and Superspies went into another parallel Rifts where the destruction wasn't as bad and maybe Coalition never became realty and Magic is supreme and had won the first Magic vs COalition war that had killed most of the Duscon family and so on.

z0b wrote:Actually Zer0 Kay I just looked through the other thread and I never said you were wrong, even though you may have taken it that way.
I suggested two different ideas and one was that it was a parallel dimension and the other was that it was BTS. Basically your theory seemed to be that all the palladium games worlds had merged into one, which has very little proof. Mine was that it was either BTS or a very close parallel, which has some cannon proof.

I'm not trying to start another argument here, just trying to clear up the confusion.

Hmm your right I did state that. However I belive I also argued that VL is the same VL from BTS. I've always thought he was. And not some random one from some random reality. Though there are infinite realities there is also infinite possibilities so I dought that two Victor Lazlos would look, act, think and in general be the same. There could be two other Victor Lazlos that are Parapsycologists but one of them is from a female dominant world and she is black the other is of diabolic alignment in the business to figure out how to manipulate the Paranormal to his own ends.

The Rifts being coalesced current (as of Rifts time not 2004) realities was one that I had read somewhere. It kind of made sense to me, since you have Super science possible from HU, you have the Martial arts in Japan and China from N&S then finally you have all the critters from BTS. So I guess it's not ALL Earth realities just the most similar that coalesced, I still consider Robotech/Macross, Splycers and Mechanoids separate (after all the Mechanoids did come through a Rift). As I've said before though there's the possibility that N&S, HU and BTS are the same world anyway.

Me and my friends have always played it like it was BTS since at its creation that was the closest thing to it. We also use the other books as alternate time/space/dimension books. Since Phase World never mentions a Terra or Earth we have always used it as a far off Galaxy not an alternate dimension. Wormwood is just too alien to be in this dimension though it could be not like we know everything about our Universe. N&S and BTS we always played like it could be real, all the "future" worlds were parallel to Rifts. So:

Past (solely prior to 198x): PFRPG, Recon
Current (could be in present day): TMNT, HU, BTS, N&S, System Failure, Nightspawn.
Future: Rifts, Robotech, Mechanoids

But since rifts are tears in space and time your characters could be from anywhere. From any galaxies past, present or future in any dimension. To me we know most dimensions 3 for measurement of space one for time so the only other dimensions should be the ones we can't see the ones that run exactly parallel to ours. So all "dimensions" should include some variation of Earth.

A thought just hit me...is Palladium a past world that runs parallel to Earth's Medieval times or does it run parallel throughout all of Earths time? If you have magic why would you need to develop technology? Maybe it is also in a distant galaxy. Maybe it is the afterlife since it parallel to the demonic realms. Probably a question for the PFRPG board.

Vrykolas2k wrote:Or... it COULD be possible that it's a universe to itself but some people exist in more than one dimension {like in Sliders}.
Or... it could be that it's BTS.
Or... or... N&S
Or...or... or... TMNT!!!!
Or... hey, ma, I coulda been a contendah!!

None of the other Quins were exactly alike were they even if they were a slider something was different.

Take solice in the fact that no matter how many of you there are you are unique.

z0b wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:Yes I know and like I said before it is BTS. You were the one saying I was wrong.

Look i'm sorry if I upset you, i was simply stating my opinion. I don't actually remember ever saying you were wrong, but if I did I hope this makes you feel better.

I WAS WRONG! IT IS BTS! Zer0 Kay was RIGHT! I'M VERY SORRY

you could have gone with just 'ok'.

..Actually, and I wish I could remember where I read this, but Kevin said it is a conglomeration, the Terrwhatsit mentioned before. So parts of each of the contemporary worlds we play in can be found in Rifts. Heck, in South America there are a couple of cities from more advanced worlds...

-Mike >8]

Yes. Rifts Earth is the same as Beyond the Supernatural Earth. They follow the same themes about ley lines, forgotten magic, and dark things in the corners.
but aside from that, Kevin Siembieda implied (pretty heavily) that this was true in the Rifts Conversion Book. Under the "Conversions for BtS characters" section.
Also, coincidentally, Ninjas and Superspies and BtS are the same 'world'. Victor Lazlo is in Mystic China (a N&SS sourcebook), telling his experiences with Chinese belly worms or something.

There is no reason that N&SS and BTS are not the same world [Given mystic China] personally I always ben a fan of HU, N&SS and BTS being one world, or at least that how I see it. Clearly however as long as rift been around it been the future of BTS.

Does anything happen if you meet you self from a parral dimension?
I know with Id Self it doesn't matter but if you do it by accident, what happens?

Zerebus wrote:Ironically, I always thought of Ninjas and Superspies/Mystic China as being a part of Heroes Unlimited.

Hush Zerebus!

Rifter #2 has an article addressing this very issue (written by KS himself). In short, neither HU nor BTS are the history of Rifts; they're "dimensional twins" of Rifts Earth, sharing similar elements but existing separately. Frex, the Cyberworks of Rifts Earth is similar to the Cyberworks of HU Earth, but it is a distinct organization. Victor Lazlo is from BTS; but he's a cross-dimensional refugee, not a time-jumped one.

And while I haven't actually seen it, I suspect that Chaos Earth does a much better job of clarifying exactly what the pre-Rifts history of Rifts Earth was like.

I think that even Chaos earth is not technically Rifts, isn't it also a similar parallel dimension? I don't exactly know if the term "dimensional twins" is supposed to mean more than "parallel universe".
I think KS contradicted himself here (what? I hear you gasp... Kevin S contradicting himself, that's ridiculous!) if it isn't BTS what's the deal with Lo Fung? He is definately from the BTS universe but he predicted and experienced the coming of the Rifts. As i said before as a dragon he would know if he had been rifted, even to a "dimensional twin".

I have little doubt that Lo Fung came from the history of Rifts Earth - and I have no doubt that, back in the twentieth century, he was a close friend of one Victor Lazlo. I also have little doubt that said VL was similar enough to the VL who arrived in Rifts Africa that Lo Fung wasn't able to determine that it was a different person (and I'll even go so far as to say that there was a strong implication that the two were one and the same).

Nonetheless, it's still an implication, and not a stated fact - and, as such, it doesn't count when confronted with actual stated facts. Meanwhile, you have the KLS Corporation and Cyberdyne, two HU organizations, which also went through the Coming of the Rifts and survived in various forms (Glitterboys and ARCHIE, respectively), and you have an article where KS states outright that this is a case of close parallels between all three of BTS, HU, and pre-Rifts Earth, and that neither BTS nor HU is the actual history of Rifts. This means that the Lo Fung from Rifts Africa didn't come from BTS.

That said, note also that the Coming of the Rifts occurred in the late 21st century; as such, I could see an argument for the BTS setting developing into a more HU-like setting over the course of a century (such as the society described in Chaos Earth) with Cyberdyne and KLS Corp only becoming prominent after the early twentieth century, and then having the whole thing get trashed by the Coming of the Rifts. Again, it's just speculation; in my games, that's probably how I'll handle it, should the matter ever come up. But the official line remains the same until KS says otherwise.

Well in Rifts Africa it is as close to stating it as fact as you can get without actually printing the words Lo Fung is from the BTS world and is now in the world of Rifts. There is a very strong implication that VL is the one and the same, although to a large degree I agree with you dataweaver in that your explanation is the closest to my sensibilities, and the way I would play it.
I just don't think KS really thought about it until Rifter 2.

dataweaver wrote:Rifter #2 has an article addressing this very issue (written by KS himself). In short, neither HU nor BTS are the history of Rifts; they're "dimensional twins" of Rifts Earth, sharing similar elements but existing separately. Frex, the Cyberworks of Rifts Earth is similar to the Cyberworks of HU Earth, but it is a distinct organization. Victor Lazlo is from BTS; but he's a cross-dimensional refugee, not a time-jumped one.

And while I haven't actually seen it, I suspect that Chaos Earth does a much better job of clarifying exactly what the pre-Rifts history of Rifts Earth was like.

So once again Kev wrote something that completely contradicts something else he wrote earlier?

Personally, I've always considered BTS, N&SS & Mystic China to be the same world.

come on let us just admit that BTS is the base for Rifts and be done with it. Kevin can revisit the history if he likes but the truth is that RIFT has been writian to be the future of BTS.

Saitou Hajime wrote:come on let us just admit that BTS is the base for Rifts and be done with it. Kevin can revisit the history if he likes but the truth is that RIFT has been writian to be the future of BTS.

SAITOU! Hows it going man? I've missed debating with you in sound off. How come you never pop over there any more?