Your Game Sucks

[Saitou Hajime]

I have at least left one store without buying anything under those conditions. I simply left the books on the counter and never when back. Seriously that is a Stupid thing for any shop owner/ employee to do. nothing pisses a customer more than being called stupid.

[SkyeFyre]

Well never at a store. But I actually thought people were stupid for roleplaying period.

Yes I used to be one of the guys who thought tabletop RPGs were for the nerdy losers out there, to make a long story short, through a course of events I was introduced to RIFTS. For which I shall be ever grateful and apologize to anyone I've ever bashed because of their preference.

THE GAME JUST ROCKS!

Conclusion: I once was a guy who thought you all were stupid, now I'm sitting here going "man I was retarded". Even if you never heard it from me in the first place. I'm sorry

[Saitou Hajime]

Well never at a store. But I actually thought people were stupid for roleplaying period.

Yes I used to be one of the guys who thought tabletop RPGs were for the nerdy losers out there, to make a long story short, through a course of events I was introduced to RIFTS. For which I shall be ever grateful and apologize to anyone I've ever bashed because of their preference.

THE GAME JUST ROCKS!

Conclusion: I once was a guy who thought you all were stupid, now I'm sitting here going "man I was retarded". Even if you never heard it from me in the first place. I'm sorry

You have converted to the true faith all is forgiven!

[SkyeFyre]

My first tabletop RPG was RIFTS.
My friend tried to get me to try D&D. So I decided to give it a shot. I don't know. I just find the palladium system more realistic, more in depth. Just overall a whole lot better. It's really sad that Palladium hasn't become the standard.... stupid..... <mumbles stuff about other RPGs>

[Dustin Fireblade]

Man it P's me off when some uppity jerk at the game store thinks I want to here his opinion of why Rifts is bad.

I am buying the books because I like them not because I want him to read them.
Any of you have this experience. Where some one just goes off on how stupid something you like is when you know you did not ask them for their opinion in the matter.

(Followed up by "Well why would you buy HERO and Rifts? They are completely different games. You should just play AD&D.)

Just curious.

Haven't had that problem. Course if I did then they would get a earful from me as well. Followed by some remarks on the overall quality of the store (Every store I've been in has been run-down) and the quality of the store personnel.

[grandmaster z0b]

I had the opposite experience years ago when I was first buying Rifts books, the owner of the store liked Rifts especially the tech side and would encourage people to sit down and read the books before buying them. We would discuss our games and the new palladium books coming out, at the time I wouldn't have bought my books from anywhere else.
Anyway he got bought out and the place is still there, but I think they only have 1 Palladium Book stashed in the back corner, the entire place was taken over by Magic the Boring cards. If I go in there now it's like walking into a Wild West Saloon, "we don't like strangers in these parts... unless your carying a deck".

[dark brandon]

I just say "suck on this", and shoot them with my Boom gun IN THE FACE!

Or I just wave my genitalia in their general direction. Either way, I win.

[(SHIFTY)]

Yeah I played vampire and werewolf and other games of that ilk for a while but came back to Rifts.WHY, because those games are more social games than anything else and my reasoning was why socialize and manipulate when I can simply blow them up! Rifts was also my first ever roll playing game when I was eleven and since I have come back to the game, it is even better.

[Mike Taylor]

What we have here are classic cases of System Snobbery. System snobs come in two types: 1. Those who think ONLY their RPG is worth playing. 2. Those who think players of (insert game here) are inferior.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Well, The local shop owner here used to spray his opion of role players around his shop. "why do you role play, Warhammer is much more realistic, and you have something to show for your time". my Usual reply was, " if the figs werent 20 bucks for a set of 7 platic goblins, i might consider doin that", even better was when he pushed Battle tech on us. or compared battle tech to robotech and how RT stole the Rifelman and other designs form BT.

Lucky for us, he drove off 90% of his customer base and closed last week. we took to goin to BaM for RPG books and ebay as well.

[grandmaster z0b]

There is a bit of derision of Rifts, many seem to think it's only for munchkins or power gamers, others scoff at the Palladium system.
I quite often hear "great setting, bad system" to which I usually reply "yes, but I use so many house rules it's almost a different system anyway." and yes it usually comes from goths who play Vampire. I could understand if it was one of those super detailed systems like Rolemaster or something. I haven't ever played Vampire but it's system is a bit simplistic isn't it?

[Colonel Wolfe]

haven't ever played Vampire but it's system is a bit simplistic isn't it?

The Sysytem has a strong emphesis on Story telling, so its quite simple to resolve things. and the new rule set(Wod 2.0) makes thing like combat even more deadly, and easier to role out. basically now if you get in a fight unprepared your prolly gonna get killed unless your luckly, or can think on your feet.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

I encountered the "X system sucks" just a few minutes ago.

all systems suck in some way, you work around it or don't play it.

and where did I encounter this?

PFRPG/ who's who of PFRPG posters. yes, in these forums.

I hate it when normaly good discussion suddenly get random foolishness.

[Zer0 Kay]

Man it P's me off when some uppity jerk at the game store thinks I want to here his opinion of why Rifts is bad.

I am buying the books because I like them not because I want him to read them.
Any of you have this experience. Where some one just goes off on how stupid something you like is when you know you did not ask them for their opinion in the matter.

(Followed up by "Well why would you buy HERO and Rifts? They are completely different games. You should just play AD&D.)

Just curious.

Yes that has happened to me but I usually respond with something like; I don't play D&D (remember there is no more AD&D) because I liked it when Gary Gygax was writing stuff for it. I liked the original! I almost didn't get 2nd edition just because it was created under new management (usually translates for me to: We wanna make more money). Third edition produced by TSR/WoC/HASBRO I will never touch. When you start to play a game made by a real RPG company, and not a toy manufacturer, call me.

Uh oh now I'm gonna get flames from D20(tm) lovers . Chill it's just an oppinion if you don't like it try to remember I didn't ask you to subscribe to it .

[SkyeFyre]

I agree... I liked the first and second edition, third? tried it.... burnt both of my hands off for even touching the cursed thing. like I'm sure it's fun... it's just not for me.

[Zer0 Kay]

Well, The local shop owner here used to spray his opion of role players around his shop. "why do you role play, Warhammer is much more realistic, and you have something to show for your time". my Usual reply was, " if the figs werent 20 bucks for a set of 7 platic goblins, i might consider doin that", even better was when he pushed Battle tech on us. or compared battle tech to robotech and how RT stole the Rifelman and other designs form BT.

Lucky for us, he drove off 90% of his customer base and closed last week. we took to goin to BaM for RPG books and ebay as well.

I hope you then informed him that 90% of the "original" designs were copied from various anime sources and renamed. The Stinger, Phoenix and a couple others and their LAM variants are Veritechs as well as a different model which was an armored veritech (mind you only the LAM variants are transformable). The "Rifleman" is the Radar X. The "Warhammer" is an Excalibur, the "Archer" a Phalanx, the Marauder a Officer Battle Pod. They had a Gladiator I can't remember it's name though. Macross wasn't the only one to get ripped off. I don't know where the Wolverine, Battlemaster, Goliath, Scorpion but I have seen them in ANIME model catalogs from anime older than Battletech. I beleive some were from Armored Trooper Votoms. Who knows how many were plagerized from other places. I used to love Battletech but they or rather FASA has gone the way of TSR they are extinct and now HASBRO.

I'd go so far as saying that Battletech is what got me into Palladium. I had seen Robotech when it was released and then I saw it sitting there on the shelfs of my local game shop...Battletech with the Excalibur on the cover. Hey wait this says it's a Warhammer...hey this Veritech is a stinger and there's another one here called the Phoenix. Oh well it's better than nothing. I went to NJROTC mini-bootcamp and met a guy that also played Battletech. I went to Freshman year of HS back in '88 and the guy I met in mini-bootcamp introduced me to his friend (now my best friend). I told him the story of how I got into Battletech because it was the closest thing to Robotech. Which he simply responded to by pulling out the Robotech RPG. My jaw dropped and from then on I've been a Palladium fan. So again I say when they start playing games from a real RPG company and not a toy manufacturer call me.

[Zer0 Kay]

I agree... I liked the first and second edition, third? tried it.... burnt both of my hands off for even touching the cursed thing. like I'm sure it's fun... it's just not for me.

When I first looked through third or rather was explained third since I didn't want to touch it. I thought it was funny that the system sounds like a pen and paper version of Diablo II (PC game). Then I got a headache when I saw the Diablo D20 game awhile later.

[Zer0 Kay]

My game system of coice can beat up your game system of choice? Bah. There was a time back in the old days when I knew at least seven seperate game systems by heard (Palladium, AD&D, SJG D6, Cthulu, WW, Cyberpunk, Deadlands, Rolemaster...) I knew them because I like to play! I like all kinds of games. This whole "Your game sucks!" bull is rediculous. Get over it. We're all in this together. We share a common interest. You playing WW or D20 instead of Palladium does not make your manhood bigger than mine, no matter what you think. It's like the crap that goes on with motorcycle riders. I ride a Harley, Yamaha, BSA, Honda, etc. and I'm a better man than you because of it. It's stupid, and in the long run detrimental to the whole community.

Having said that, I have had some seriously negative experiences with the manager of a certain gaming store in Ann Arbor. Now there's a man not interested in keeping customers. I won't step foot in that store anymore because of him and his poor attitude.

I know what you mean. The community used to be so diverse now it's become polarized with HASBRO's mass aquisitions (there like the freaking M$ of game companies, not meant in a good way.) I know the following and used to play them all:
Palladium:
Palladium Fantasy
Rifts
TMNT
Recon
Beyond the Supernatural
Ninjas and Superspies
Heroes Unlimited
Mechanoids
Nightspawn
Sentinels
Manhunter

Leading Edge:
Aliens

TSR (haven’t played any since Hasbro by way of WOC bought them):
D&D
AD&D (1st and 2nd ed.)
Gamma World
Star Frontiers
Marvel Superheroes

FASA (also haven’t played since TSR/WOC/Hasbro acquired them, although I really liked how the Shadowrun creators stuck it to TSR/WOC/Hasbro by not allowing them to continuing publishing Shadowrun since FASA didn’t “own” the game):
Battletech (yes I know it was a boardgame)
Mechwarrior
Aerotech
Earth Dawn

R. Talsorian:
Cyberpunk 2020
Bubblegum Crisis
Teenagers from Outerspace
Cybergeneration
Mekton (I, II and Zeta)
Dream Park

White Wolf:
Vampire
Were Wolf
Mage
Wraith
Changeling
Street Fighter (only by peer pressure)

Chaosium:
Call of Cthulu

Chaosium/Avalon Hill:
Runequest

Games Workshop:
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying

Wonderworld Press:
Synnibar

Iron Crown Enterprises (wow I didn’t know that’s what I.C.E. meant guess I didn’t care):
MERPS (now I did know that meant Middle Earth Role-Playing Game)

BTRC:
Macho Women With Guns

West End Games:
Ghostbusters, International
Star Wars
Paranoia
Star Warrior
TORG

Heartbreaker:
Mutant Chronicles

Manufacturer Unknown:
Ironwood (from the adult comic)


I used to love em all but now...less imagination more conformity for many. I just hope those that aren't conforming never do.

By the way did you know that Mike Pondsmith at R. Talsorian is back from designing for M$? Means that Cyberpunk and Mekton if not their whole line are going to get a shot in the arm. I hope that means they start generating books more often again.

[Stormseed]

I had to deal with a pair of those jerks at a con once. I was reading over the copy of Megaverse Builder I had bought that day, and these two characters came over and started subtly insulting me about it. I managed to avoid telling them to go to hell, but it was a near thing; I did give them the snake-eye, though.

[Hystrix]

I had a guy at a WotC store tell me he didn't care for Rifts, but he was pretty cool about explaining why. I didn't agree with him, but he was still cool about it...

[Janus]

I had a friend who said that Palladium sucked and that D20 D and D was superior. I said how do you figure to which he replied because Palladium is just a power gamers paradise. I said oh yeah how do you figure that because it takes a real GM with real creativity and imagination to create a balanced and fair adventure in Palladium that takes darn near forever to advance in levels and powerful items instead of having everything spelled out for the GM with a set number of EXP and treasure that allows a character to get to level 20 within a few game sessions, yes I can see where Palladium is a powergamers paradise. He stopped talking to me for a week after that.

[Zer0 Kay]

I had a friend who said that Palladium sucked and that D20 D and D was superior. I said how do you figure to which he replied because Palladium is just a power gamers paradise. I said oh yeah how do you figure that because it takes a real GM with real creativity and imagination to create a balanced and fair adventure in Palladium that takes darn near forever to advance in levels and powerful items instead of having everything spelled out for the GM with a set number of EXP and treasure that allows a character to get to level 20 within a few game sessions, yes I can see where Palladium is a powergamers paradise. He stopped talking to me for a week after that.

If you want to see a powergamers paradise take a look at Sinnabar, if you can find it.

[Janus]

I had a friend who said that Palladium sucked and that D20 D and D was superior. I said how do you figure to which he replied because Palladium is just a power gamers paradise. I said oh yeah how do you figure that because it takes a real GM with real creativity and imagination to create a balanced and fair adventure in Palladium that takes darn near forever to advance in levels and powerful items instead of having everything spelled out for the GM with a set number of EXP and treasure that allows a character to get to level 20 within a few game sessions, yes I can see where Palladium is a powergamers paradise. He stopped talking to me for a week after that.

I nominate you for Fan Defensive Lineman of the year.

Ha ha twern't nothing, he just really gets mad when I tell him AdnD sucks and can prove it. It makes me to laugh.

[Janus]

I had a friend who said that Palladium sucked and that D20 D and D was superior. I said how do you figure to which he replied because Palladium is just a power gamers paradise. I said oh yeah how do you figure that because it takes a real GM with real creativity and imagination to create a balanced and fair adventure in Palladium that takes darn near forever to advance in levels and powerful items instead of having everything spelled out for the GM with a set number of EXP and treasure that allows a character to get to level 20 within a few game sessions, yes I can see where Palladium is a powergamers paradise. He stopped talking to me for a week after that.

If you want to see a powergamers paradise take a look at Sinnabar, if you can find it.

I may have to Ebay for it just to check it out.

[Zer0 Kay]

I had a friend who said that Palladium sucked and that D20 D and D was superior. I said how do you figure to which he replied because Palladium is just a power gamers paradise. I said oh yeah how do you figure that because it takes a real GM with real creativity and imagination to create a balanced and fair adventure in Palladium that takes darn near forever to advance in levels and powerful items instead of having everything spelled out for the GM with a set number of EXP and treasure that allows a character to get to level 20 within a few game sessions, yes I can see where Palladium is a powergamers paradise. He stopped talking to me for a week after that.

If you want to see a powergamers paradise take a look at Sinnabar, if you can find it.

I may have to Ebay for it just to check it out.

Its kind of funny it was originally released as a single book game system with approx. 400 pages, it's about 1.75". The game is setup so you can go from 1st level to god, in as the designer put it, "about 10 years." You already start off with outragious powers have the ability to start off as a gods child. Oh sorry the funny part is a second book was released that defined the class/races because the designer realized, as he grew in age, that not everyone gets along so he gave each class/race likes and dislikes basically assigning a "foundation" disposition.

[Janus]

Sounds like a power gamers paradise. That would be cool just to try to be god's child.

[Uncle Servo]

I've heard that "Your Game Sucks" stale rhetoric for longer than I care to remember... particularly from proponents of various 'single die' systems that have their own particular 15 minutes of fame before invariably shuffling off into obscurity.

I used to also play RoleMaster, Star Wars D6, GURPS, Champions, MEKTON, Boot Hill, and even the old D&D in addition to Palladium. EVERY SYSTEM had both strengths and weaknesses, no exception. No system is perfect -- PERIOD. Play what you like, but have the common courtesy (and common sense) to realize that not everybody will like the same system(s) you do.


I'll never forget though, when a friend and I were playing WH40K (right after the 3rd edition came out) on a day where the gaming store was having a Magic tournament. This one bloated narwhal of a gamer sauntered up between matches and started telling us how 3rd edition was sooooo inferior to the original version and how _his_ gaming group still play the original version 'as it was meant to be.' We tolerated this goob for about 10 minutes non-stop before we turned to him and politely (yet firmly and coldly) informed him that WE were playing 3rd edition, WE were enjoying playing 3rd edition, and we promised that we would NEVER, EVER ask him to play 3rd edition.

[Vrykolas2k]

For the various incarnations of D&D, I think 3rd is the best... though I hate that D20 has become such a darn fad.
I've played numerous game systems, I liked the old World of Darkness {3rd edition I suppose}, and have found that ANY game can be a power-gamer's paradise. It depends on what you do in the game. Of course some games annoy me more than others. Can't stand BESM in either incarnation, or Rolemaster {mostly due to how long it took to make a character... played a Chaos Lord}, ELRIC! was fun, also liked Warhammer Fantasy ALOT. Hate Gemini {too much like Christian propaganda for my tastes}, Rifts and Talislanta have always been my two faves, though I like Cyberpunk nearly as well.

[SkyeFyre]

The religion of RIFTS.... an interesting idea...

/me goes out and burns some D&D books

[Vrykolas2k]

"Your game is for poopie-heads!"

Sounds like a 12-year old or something. I just could never understand why some people get so emotional about a gaming preference. And if someone works at a store which supplies a product they should, in my opinion, be relatively unbiased. Though I'd have a hard time selling Madness: The Gibbering to anyone.

[gelidus]

My self? I play white wolf games ALOT with other people. Why? Its a VERY VERY simple system, everything is right infront of you on your sheet, Need to know how high a skill is and what to roll? Takes 5 seconds(inlcuding the roll). Its VERY VERY hard to make a uber strong charter in most of the white wolf games and there story lines ain't bad ethier.

I also do some D&D its just classic. But if you do not know what your doing it takes a bit to learn.

I Do Shadowrun some nights. Why? The story is AWSOME and there are many many books.

Sometimes we do Godlike...not very well known but a fun system none the less. And it helps you study for history exams.

And last but not least Rifts...... This system has so many flaws, Things that are not writen, and books that say one thing then books that say another it makes ones head hurt. But the story line....ohhh the story line..... The mass possiblitys of what can happen, The vast array of classes...and come on. You gotta love a juicer....The ultmit coffie addict.

[dark brandon]

I just say "suck on this", and shoot them with my Boom gun IN THE FACE!

Or I just wave my genitalia in their general direction. Either way, I win.

HAHAHA!!! pWnage!!!

You my friend, know quality pWnage. You are no longer a nooblar. Go forth and spread the r0x0rz!

[Zer0 Kay]

Sounds like a power gamers paradise. That would be cool just to try to be god's child.

To be a gods child you had to roll 20s on all stats which was two more than you had to roll to be a Bio-Syntha Cyborg. The first release of the game you were on Mars (Synnibar) as it hurtles through space on its way to its new home solar system. It has been hollowed out and turned into a space craft by a god to save humanity from it's sun going supernova all humanity is in cryo within the planet and the PCs are "heroes" identified by the computer and woken up to take care of problems. In 2nd ed. your in the new solar system with multiple planets to travel to, all humanity is awake.

[Zer0 Kay]

[Snip, too many smilies dude ]

Give d20 Modern a shot. You can get the game, with all of the paranatural bits, in two books (d20 Modern Corebook, and d20 Modern Unearthed Arcana) then use the SRD for your monster manual. Say what you will about Hasbro, they made by FAR the biggest impact in the RPG industry in a long, long time with d20. It's for a reason. Don't be so close minded, or you might get a dozen smilies thrown at you too! :D

SMILE ON!! My problem with the D20 system is the same as the problem I had with Warhammer 40K 2nd edition. It made a flexible system more strict in order to make the rules simpler for simpler people to understand. There is just something wrong with D&D in the same sentence with single die system. The nastalgia I have for D&D includes opening a Basic box set and seeing "funky" dice.

[Zer0 Kay]

Honestly, I like Rifts best, simply because it was the first pen-paper RPG I ever played. Of course, now when I GM, I just basically do it in a half-assed freeform style, occasionally rolling dice (or having the player do it) when I can't decide what to do.

So basically you do the best role-playing and try to tell a story with the PCs as actors.

[Zer0 Kay]

SMILE ON!! My problem with the D20 system is the same as the problem I had with Warhammer 40K 2nd edition. It made a flexible system more strict in order to make the rules simpler for simpler people to understand. There is just something wrong with D&D in the same sentence with single die system. The nastalgia I have for D&D includes opening a Basic box set and seeing "funky" dice.

Hmm. Well.. In that case, hold still. My Rogue-Order of the Bow Initate needs a shot.

*rolls 1D10+5D8+2D6+1D4*

Hehe. Single diced my butt. I love Unisystem, Tri-Stat and all, but I won't give up my funky dice

ok but you still forgot about the 3,12 & 30 sided not to mention where was the d20 roll for strike? For that matter the % for hit location.

I still need to pick up a set of giant foam rubber dice to throw at my player...I had considered the large metal ones but figured that would probably delay the game even longer having to wait for his return to conciousness.

[PigLickJF]

SMILE ON!! My problem with the D20 system is the same as the problem I had with Warhammer 40K 2nd edition. It made a flexible system more strict in order to make the rules simpler for simpler people to understand. There is just something wrong with D&D in the same sentence with single die system. The nastalgia I have for D&D includes opening a Basic box set and seeing "funky" dice.

The D20 isn't a single-die system. You still use all the same dice in D20 as you ever used in D&D. In fact, you pretty much use the same dice to determine the same things. Hit rolls, skill checks, and attribute checks use a D20 now, and always have. Attributes are rolled with d6s, and weapon/spell damage/effects use d4 to d20 and everything in between.

The D20 system just took all those things and gave the entire system some internal consistency. I also don't see how it made a "flexible system more strict." D&D3E has more flexibility than any previous incarnation of the game.

These are the things Rifts needs. More internal consistency, more streamlining, less contradiction and confusion. Call it a revision, call it a secod edition, whatever, that's pretty immaterial.

PigLick

[Defender_X]

For the most part, my group compares AD&D with D&D d20 and how the d20 system is an improvement. We all agree that each system has it's strength and weaknesses, but only really have time to play one system unfortuantly. They could come up with some interesting characters for Rifts.

[ApocalypseZero]

Well, The local shop owner here used to spray his opion of role players around his shop. "why do you role play, Warhammer is much more realistic, and you have something to show for your time". .

OMG that game is like a virus. I used to go to Horizon Games when i lived in south houson. Then WarHammer started taking it over. Eventually the section of the store that would carry my books got smaller and smaller. I finally stopped going there, the staff was cool, but i could understand what was happening. That game had become their cash cow.
But the staff was top notch.

Actually, to continue to sell Games Workshop products and see any sort of benefit and recognition from them, you had to buy direct from them (no outside company like Alliance, etc.). If they found out you were, GW would not support the store through Outriders (Not recognizing Outrider's comp from those stores) and generally turning a blind eye to the store. So those stores that do GW, tend to only do GW for both company benefits as well as reduced bulk orders.

I knew a couple that had a store for GW games store, but not under GW order. They'd need like 1-2 blisters, but GW would force them to buy 6 or none at all. Sadly, the store died.

Okay, enough of the derailing from me. I just wanted to relay a bit of background info I hold.

[dark brandon]

I think this game L337ism is mainly what your use to. I don't really have a problem with AD&D, besides the fact, I'm just not use to the system. I find most people who dislike any system usually do it because of a lack of understanding of the system.

[Dead Boy]

It's funny. Looks like I'm the only one here who hasn't has such a negative experience at the game store or elesewhere. At Merlyns they just rang the sell up like any other, treating me like the insect all their customers are to them (I don't go there any more). At the Comic Book Shop I order my Rifts stuff with no problem and they are handed to me the instant I walk in the door with a, "Here ya go, Matt! A little something to brighten up your day." Love that place.

[CyCo]

By the way did you know that Mike Pondsmith at R. Talsorian is back from designing for M$? Means that Cyberpunk and Mekton if not their whole line are going to get a shot in the arm. I hope that means they start generating books more often again.

I sure do! I can only hope he does something and does it soon. Did you know CyberGen is now taken care of Firestorm Ink (and that there is a new book, with more to come), and ImageNative Worlds are ment to be continuing with the CP2020 Interlock system, but I have yet to see movement.

[Saitou Hajime]

SMILE ON!! My problem with the D20 system is the same as the problem I had with Warhammer 40K 2nd edition. It made a flexible system more strict in order to make the rules simpler for simpler people to understand. There is just something wrong with D&D in the same sentence with single die system. The nastalgia I have for D&D includes opening a Basic box set and seeing "funky" dice.

The D20 isn't a single-die system. You still use all the same dice in D20 as you ever used in D&D. In fact, you pretty much use the same dice to determine the same things. Hit rolls, skill checks, and attribute checks use a D20 now, and always have. Attributes are rolled with d6s, and weapon/spell damage/effects use d4 to d20 and everything in between.

The D20 system just took all those things and gave the entire system some internal consistency. I also don't see how it made a "flexible system more strict." D&D3E has more flexibility than any previous incarnation of the game.

These are the things Rifts needs. More internal consistency, more streamlining, less contradiction and confusion. Call it a revision, call it a secod edition, whatever, that's pretty immaterial.

PigLick

Look D20 is basicly the Cyberpunk rules with a different die and magic rules ok. seriously it not even an adiption of the old AD&D rules it a Cyperpunk roling system with feats [GUrps Advanatages]


I love making characters for Gurps, I love playing GURPS I hate Running combat in it and i really hate it when players want to use the Advance combat rules which I hate!

[PigLickJF]

Look D20 is basicly the Cyberpunk rules with a different die and magic rules ok. seriously it not even an adiption of the old AD&D rules it a Cyperpunk roling system with feats [GUrps Advanatages]

<shrug> Whatever, I don't really care where it came from. My point was, that it is a good system with a lot of flexibility and fairly simple, streamlined mechanics. I'm not saying it's the *only* good system out there, I'm sure there are others. But it's one I'm familiar with, and one that is apparently good enough to have garnered a lot of popularity and support. I'm not saying Rifts should convert to or emulate the D20 system itself, but could definitely use some of the "polish" of the system.

PigLick

[grandmaster z0b]

Look D20 is basicly the Cyberpunk rules with a different die and magic rules ok. seriously it not even an adiption of the old AD&D rules it a Cyperpunk roling system with feats [GUrps Advanatages]

I have stayed clear of D20 but I always liked the Cyberpunk system, is it really that similar? I didn't like the attributes (one "body" stat from 1 to 10 was a bit clunky) but everything else ran easily and smoothly. Does D20 still use the ridiculous Armour Class and/or TACO system?

[Sureshot]

Look D20 is basicly the Cyberpunk rules with a different die and magic rules ok. seriously it not even an adiption of the old AD&D rules it a Cyperpunk roling system with feats [GUrps Advanatages]

I have stayed clear of D20 but I always liked the Cyberpunk system, is it really that similar? I didn't like the attributes (one "body" stat from 1 to 10 was a bit clunky) but everything else ran easily and smoothly. Does D20 still use the ridiculous Armour Class and/or TACO system?

Thaco no longer exists. Roll D20 add attack modifier and compare the targets AC if it's higher you hit, if it's lower you miss. Armor is no longer in the negatives. the higher the AC the better. I am a fan of the new system. It by far imo the best version of the game.

[Vrykolas2k]

Look D20 is basicly the Cyberpunk rules with a different die and magic rules ok. seriously it not even an adiption of the old AD&D rules it a Cyperpunk roling system with feats [GUrps Advanatages]

I have stayed clear of D20 but I always liked the Cyberpunk system, is it really that similar? I didn't like the attributes (one "body" stat from 1 to 10 was a bit clunky) but everything else ran easily and smoothly. Does D20 still use the ridiculous Armour Class and/or TACO system?

Thaco no longer exists. Roll D20 add attack modifier and compare the targets AC if it's higher you hit, if it's lower you miss. Armor is no longer in the negatives. the higher the AC the better. I am a fan of the new system. It by far imo the best version of the game.

Yea, bonuses now ADD and penalties now SUBTRACT, and a low AC is BAD lol. Things that make sense. Though I still have problems with certain combat mehanics, and of course I still postulate that armour doesn't make you harder to hit, and doesn't do a blessed thing for you until you are hit... but, I guess that's just one of those things that will never change about that game.

[grandmaster z0b]

Yes the idea that armour makes you harder to hit is ridiculous. As far as medieval armours (chain, plate etc.) go I think PF has it almost correct in that once you are hit with a weapon it can be deflected (under AR) or hit and damage the armour but not the wearer (over AR). There are also rules for penetration, and I think this is what is missing from Rifts.
I might start using a variation of the D20 system for certain things like observation checks and attibute checks though as that is what I liked from cyberpunk.

[PigLickJF]

Yes the idea that armour makes you harder to hit is ridiculous. As far as medieval armours (chain, plate etc.) go I think PF has it almost correct in that once you are hit with a weapon it can be deflected (under AR) or hit and damage the armour but not the wearer (over AR). There are also rules for penetration, and I think this is what is missing from Rifts.
I might start using a variation of the D20 system for certain things like observation checks and attibute checks though as that is what I liked from cyberpunk.

But really, armor doesn't make you harder to "hit" in D&D, it just makes you harder to wound. AC is just an abstract that includes both deflection and avoidance. If you were a really anal/diligent GM or player, you could actually note your "base" AC and the AC gained from your armor, then compare them to your attacker's hit rolls and determine whether they clean missed, or whether their attack just didn't penetrate your armor. That'd be a major pain in the butt though, and for no good reason.

One of the things I like in D20 is all the opposed rolls. In fact, in some ways, this is more similar to the Palladium system, except that while D20 extends the opposed checks to nearly everything from combat to saves to skill checks, Palladium uses them only in combat (strikes vs parry/dodge, etc). You could do some interesting things with that mechanic in Palladium, I think.

PigLick

[Janus]

D20 D and D would be ok if there was more to it. you can only go so far in any class and then there is not that much variety. You have a fighter true there are a number of feats you can choose, but face it, they are going to be cleave great cleave, power attack, weapon specialision, weapon focus, and maybe the increase in the saves like iron will and lightning reflexes. Same with spell casters only with their specialized feats. There just is no originality in character design and the only way to progress in levels is to basically "Diablo" it. However the only real problem I have with the game since playing in Palladium is the fact that I cannot dodge an attack and for some reason being dextrous does not enhance my ability to hit an opponent more often. Oh well that said I have a level 6 fighter that needs to be on level 7. Death to gobbos everywhere.