RANT: Rifts (Second Edition, Revised, etc)

[Old School]

With all of the Q & A blah blah blah regarding Core Rules, Weapon Damages, O.C.C.'s, Bonus Skills, and the like. Why not come out with “Rifts: Second Edition”?
Make it an honest to goodness revamp of the Rifts Main Book.
Keep the story and O.C.C.’s, but flush out the errors, and discrepancies (Combat, Weapon Power, etc).
Fix all of the gripes that have made playing the game a rules-lawyers nightmare.
Take time with it.
You don’t even need to change the artwork, just the text.
I know the G.M.’s guide was made for this purpose, but come on… how many of us would buy a Second Edition that fixed all of our problems. (I’d buy TWO, one for myself, one for players.)
Am I the only one that feeles this way?

[grandmaster z0b]

It has been discussed before here, and it does seem inevitable it's just question of when. I'm actually not that keen on it though, I prefer the original rules in general to anything from the GMG (quick and stupid combat). I know I'd like a Rifts Second Edition if I had my say, with proper bursting rules, nothing about mages not wearing armor, canon PPE channeling and better hand to hand combat rules.

[Rimmer]

Would it really be a Rifts: 2nd Edition ? or more of a Rifts: Revised Edition ? either way count me in

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

2nd Ed Rifts will come out just after the Rifts Atlas.

this issue was delt with with the "Games, Master Guide".

Surprisingly RPG are like software. how many patches does the rifts core rules have? RPGs have different physics emulations to capture specific genre of play. that is, they have different bonuses and scalings to emulate these things.

and any change will get people angry, ANY change. a Rifts 2ndED is likely to require a rewrite of all the rift books. the conversions books, and a repurchase of all of them. which means they need to double the staff to be able to keep making the current books and update the old books. they have not done this for all the 2nd ed PF books and have a look at how many there are of them compared to rifts. or they could go half arsed and just produce a rifts 1st to 2nd ed convertion book.

perhaps this needs to be put in the FAQ or have a forum of recuring threads.

*takes a deep breaths*
serenity now

[Killer Cyborg]

I've said for a while now that what we need is Rifts: 3rd Edition.

There have already been so many changes that Rifts today isn't the same game as when it started. As far as I'm concerned:

Rifts: First Edition-

-Fun with full-auto weapons.
-Supernatural PS does SDC.
-No two attacks for living.
-Each spell only takes 1 attack
-TechnoWizardry is used primarily to change power sources to magic
(Basically everything before Conversion Book 1.)

Rifts: Second Edition-
-Supernatural PS does Megadamage
-Robotic Strength tables
-The -10 rule
-The mage armor nonsense
-No more Full-Auto
-Two attacks for living
-New West is suddenly populated
-Japan is no longer destroyed
-Canada is populated
-Atlantis is no longer has the most powerful tech and magic
(The munchkinfest we have today)

[Sureshot]

Count me for a new edition if and when it ever comes out. As it stand the system needs to many house rules imo to work. I don't have the time nor the will to do that. People may get angry about new editions but I think they are in the minority. If the new edition is cleaned up consistent and better rules wise it would attract both old and new blood to the game.

Look at Wotc. Hate D20 and Wotc all you want and hate their business practices but 3.0. injected a health does of life into what was a stagnant genre and company. The facts speak plainly for themselves. With the possible exception of WW there is no really competitor to Wotc. I don't admire them for how they did it. Just using them as an example to illustrate a point. The same could happen to Palladium. Also more fan input would also be needed.

I would also like to see new art in the new edition. I would also prefer not to have color pictures like the RMB has. While it makes the book more pretty I would rather have more information.

[Killer Cyborg]

Look at Wotc. Hate D20 all you want and hate their business practices but 3.0. injected a health does of life into what was a stagnant genre and company. The facts speak plainly for themselves. With the possible exception of WW there is no really competitor to Wotc. I don't admire them for how they did it. Just using them as an example to illustrate a point. The same could happen to Palladium. Also more fan input would also be needed.

I originally ditched AD&D for Palladium because Palladium had the better system and AD&D was a convoluted mess that had long since overloaded the basic frame of the system.

AD&D saw that their system was messed up and did what needed to be done: dismantle the entire thing, build a new frame, and put back all the best features.

Now the positions are reversed, and I've been playing much more AD&D 3rd Edition than Rifts.

[Sureshot]

It would also be an opportunity to update some of the older books with obsolete information and redo books that are unpopular such as Rifts England.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I've said for a while now that what we need is Rifts: 3rd Edition.

There have already been so many changes that Rifts today isn't the same game as when it started. As far as I'm concerned:

Rifts: First Edition-

-Fun with full-auto weapons.
-Supernatural PS does SDC.
-No two attacks for living.
-Each spell only takes 1 attack
-TechnoWizardry is used primarily to change power sources to magic
(Basically everything before Conversion Book 1.)

Rifts: Second Edition-
-Supernatural PS does Megadamage
-Robotic Strength tables
-The -10 rule
-The mage armor nonsense
-No more Full-Auto
-Two attacks for living
-New West is suddenly populated
-Japan is no longer destroyed
-Canada is populated
-Atlantis is no longer has the most powerful tech and magic
(The munchkinfest we have today)

point in fact, two attacks for living was in the first Main Book.

[Nekira Sudacne]

point in fact, two attacks for living was in the first Main Book.

True, but it was vague enough for people to mistake it. Including my gaming group until I brought it up. I'd also like to note that unless I want dervishes, I don't use the "2 attacks" rule for either Rifts or Fantasy.

As for Rifts 2E, I have no faith in it coming out. If it did, I would base it on the d20 3.5E OGL for the system.

From here on YMMV so take it as you will: The main problems I have with Palladium's games, as a whole, are a few glaring things. Lets go through them.

1) Skill difficulty maxes out. There's little practical way to have a skill difficulty over 100%. If you apply high penalties, a guy who maxed his skill out to 98% at 6th lvl is as likely to succeed as that same character, with 9 more levels and a skill of over 150%, when the penalty is applied.

2) Combat system takes too long. Simply put: 1 action every three seconds game time, with two rolls to determine if you hit (you and your enemy) takes too long. Shorten it. d20's AC system works fine for me, but as shown in the recent Unearthed Arcana suppliment (which I'll mention below) allows for a counter-roll, an AC roll.

3) No spell creation rules. Through the Glass Darkly has them, but they're tied to the subject matter and have no official impact on RIFTS. Change that.

4) Standardize everything, please. WotC, while having a "Character Optimization" board dedicated to min-maxing the nuances, is at least standard. You don't stack a +1 luck bonus with a +2 luck bonus, but you can stack a +2 (no name) bonus with a +2 luck bonus and a +1 deflection bonus. There're rules for why things do and do not work together. I appreciate that.

5) Cut the classes back. Please. Republish all of the Headhunters as one class with variant options. Make the Battle Magi or Illusionists add-ons for the LLW, etc.


Personally, I think the d20 OGL has the system in place and Palladium could just plop their 'throw mechanical balance to the wind' mentality into it. Include a blurb right on it saying, "This material does not follow the balance issues held up by the producers of the world's largest fantasy RPG. Thus, we wouldn't recommend you straight convert anything to any other OGL material as it's likely to be imbalanced." After that, you're good to go with the Huge sized Dragon-Wizards

But, really. Nah. OGL aside, fix my issues and I might play again, but.. eh, not likely. As it's not ever going to be fixed. Phooey, now I'm bumbed.

I like how you can roll defence in palladiums combat.

and standardized is the LAST thing I want to see personally.

just me but I LIKE how it's all different.

[Killer Cyborg]

point in fact, two attacks for living was in the first Main Book.

No, it wasn't.
If you like, you can start a thread on that and we can debate things there...

but let's not clutter up this place with a tangent argument.

[grandmaster z0b]

If we cannot decide on what should and shouldn't be part of a Rifts second edition then how the hell would Kevin do it without disenchanting half of his audience.

[PigLickJF]

If we cannot decide on what should and shouldn't be part of a Rifts second edition then how the hell would Kevin do it without disenchanting half of his audience.

<shrug> He seems to do it with every new book that comes out and presents new/revised rules.

Personally, I'd like to much more input from people other than KS if they were to do this. I realize he is the creator and Godfather of Palladium and Rifts, but trying to develop and tweak an entire coherent gaming system is a big task, and he seems to be a bit too rushed/careless/lazy/whatever to pull it off himself.

PigLick

[Zer0 Kay]

They do have a Rifts 2nd Edition it's called Chaos Earth. A different eddition is a complete overhall (e.g. AD&D 1st, 2nd ed. or Warhammer 40K 1,2,3,4 ed.). If there just fixing the errors and problems then it would only be a Revision (e.g. HU, N&S).

[Sureshot]

I would actually like a standardized system. Having everything at my fingertips is not only a time saver it just logical to do it like that. Too many rules either conradict each other or are spread out. If you push your system as generic make sure you give the players every and all rules. Which they don't like rules for creating occs. And yes I know you can house rule it but that's not the point. A revised complete consistent ruleset would be a huge step in the right direction. The only thing I would change is the art because a lot of it especially the CS art is dated now that CWC is out. Not to mention that they have some great artist now.

The system as it stands reminds me a little of how gurps used to be set up. To use book A you need to get book c, d, e,. Chaos Earth I hope is not a revised Rifts. You need too many books to complete an otherwise "complete" game.

[Vrykolas2k]

I can see a revised core book, and even a revised Sourcebook 1, as being good things.
As for a 2nd edition... not necessary, in my opinion.

[Preacher]

point in fact, two attacks for living was in the first Main Book.

No, it wasn't.
.

Yes it was.

[Dr. Doom III]

Yes it was.

It was but it was hidden so well no one knew it, including KS himself apparently.

[Esckey]

I have yet to see a good reason for a 2nd(or 3rd) edition Rifts book. No point so far.

[Scyber]

Personally I am a fan of a more generic Megaversal Rule Book. It would cover character creation, skills, combat, etc. With each setting then becoming a supplement.

I know this opinion isn't well like though, so I will shut up now.

[dataweaver]

I originally ditched AD&D for Palladium because Palladium had the better system and AD&D was a convoluted mess that had long since overloaded the basic frame of the system.

AD&D saw that their system was messed up and did what needed to be done: dismantle the entire thing, build a new frame, and put back all the best features.

Now the positions are reversed, and I've been playing much more AD&D 3rd Edition than Rifts.

True enough. In fact, I'd go as far as to suggest the (heretical) possibility of a "Rifts d20" project, given d20's "open license" nature and the overall superiority of the d20 rules to the Palladium rules. [Dons flame-retardant suit and hunkers down.]

[SkyeFyre]

Yes it was.

It was but it was hidden so well no one knew it, including KS himself apparently.

Believe it or not, the -10 rule is another one of those well hidden rules from the core rule book. Despite what I see on here quite often, a -10 to dodge was ALWAYS part of the rules. I have the 13th printing of RIFTS and its on pg. 35, under Step 3: Defender May Parry, Dodge or Entagle. The second paragraph begins with NOTE and the last sentence says that dodging missile weapons such as arrows and energy blasts are at -10!

What the GMG added was that "no dodging bonuses from anything either" crud that I ignore. I do implement the -10 dodge though, WITH bonuses.

I have the 3rd printing and it isn't there... Sounds like they've been slowly fixing their mistakes as to not let anyone catch on.

[Dr. Doom III]

Believe it or not, the -10 rule is another one of those well hidden rules from the core rule book. Despite what I see on here quite often, a -10 to dodge was ALWAYS part of the rules. I have the 13th printing of RIFTS

I have a 3rd and 8th I believe (Whatever the silver hardbound is).
It's not there.

The only thing hard to believe it that they changed something in the book when a new printing was made.

[Old School]

Rifts is in serious need of change. When you compare the newer books with the oldest, the inconsistencies are ever growing...
The Rifts main book needs to reflect that change.
C'mon, it was written 14 years ago without any serious revision. Emperor Tromm is still in there in the glitter boy section and the Xiticix are vastly different from what was portrayed recently. O.C.C.s in later books are more advanced and detailed than the main book.

This is the heart of my rant.
I'm not looking for a change in the story, the art, or concepts of the Palladium system. I just think the Core book, (the heart of ANY system), needs to be updated with the newer material found strewen through out the other books.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

Yes it was.

It was but it was hidden so well no one knew it, including KS himself apparently.

We covered this already, there is NO "2 attacks for living" in the RMB.

it could be hidden on page 257

[Noon]

but flush out the errors, and discrepancies (Combat, Weapon Power, etc).
Fix all of the gripes that have made playing the game a rules-lawyers nightmare.

And change it to what? All these descrepancies mean that no two Rifts groups play the same.

But they'll all want the new rules to be like how they play. In fact, since they were forced to change the rules because they were so bad, they ended up ultra customising the ruleset to their needs. How can you bring out a ruleset that competes with what they ultra customised for themselves?

I used to push for change about two years ago. Now I realise that not bringing out any real revision is a good idea in terms of the reduced sales potential of that revision. Not only that but bringing out a crappy rule set has great market potential. In order to get good play, people modify the rules even without thinking sometimes...and then attribute this to the author of the book. Typically you can see when people say "Rifts runs just fine with the standard rules...I only use a few house rules". Eh, if it runs fine by itself, why...never mind.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Yes it was.

It was but it was hidden so well no one knew it, including KS himself apparently.

Believe it or not, the -10 rule is another one of those well hidden rules from the core rule book. Despite what I see on here quite often, a -10 to dodge was ALWAYS part of the rules. I have the 13th printing of RIFTS and its on pg. 35, under Step 3: Defender May Parry, Dodge or Entagle. The second paragraph begins with NOTE and the last sentence says that dodging missile weapons such as arrows and energy blasts are at -10!

What the GMG added was that "no dodging bonuses from anything either" crud that I ignore. I do implement the -10 dodge though, WITH bonuses.

belive it or not, that's NOT in the eariier printings. I have an older oen that only says that dodging automatically means giving up the next melee attack.

[Vrykolas2k]

point in fact, two attacks for living was in the first Main Book.

No, it wasn't.
.

Yes it was.

Yes, yes it was....

[Sureshot]

Like I have said in previous posts I am in favor of a new edition. Another compromise would a revised core book. If they take this route they need to take their time with it and to follow the rules in the book to the letter when doing other sourcebooks.

It should have:

New art. Some of the drawings are dated especially the CS units. Plus they have some great talent now as opposed to just Kevin Long.

All the rules needed to create spells, occs, magic/psionic items, vehicles, planets, galaxies etc. Currently the rules for these are too spread out and there are no rules for occ creation. If it takes two books to do that than so be it. i rather have as much information in one place than hunt around for ot or spend money on others books I really don't need.

Make sure none of the rules contradict each other.

No reduntant or duplicate OCCS Time and time again there are too many occs that are just too similiar to one another like the new headhunter variants or the bounty hunter occ from rifts mercenaries. Do the research and write up one occs for the headhunter and stick to it. There really is no need for occs that are similair except to add to the page count.

No poof rules like mages can no longer wear armor or silly rules like the -10 rule. Imo rules like these hinder not add to the system.

Get feedback from the fanbase on what rules should be included. After all we are the ones buying the book.

Give writers a set of guidelines to follow when writing sourcebooks to maintain consistency of the world, reduce powercreep and have a logical flow to the world.

Remove the color sections. They make the book look pretty but I rather have more information or rules.

Finally if they do a revised edition of Rifts and come out with revised worldbooks please focus on Rifts North America first than go to other places on Rifts Earth. In my experience most campaigns start in north America. I never understood why KS neglected it and decided to focus on other parts of Rifts Earth.

[Killer Cyborg]

Believe it or not, the -10 rule is another one of those well hidden rules from the core rule book. Despite what I see on here quite often, a -10 to dodge was ALWAYS part of the rules. I have the 13th printing of RIFTS

I have a 3rd and 8th I believe (Whatever the silver hardbound is).
It's not there.

The only thing hard to believe it that they changed something in the book when a new printing was made.

Huh.. that's interesting. I thought the only difference between printings was fixing typos. Anyone out there have a printing before 13th that has the -10 rule in the place a cited? Now I'm intrigued... a conspiracy!!

I have a 2nd edition (1990) copy.
Needless to say, not in there either.

[dataweaver]

Like I have said in previous posts I am in favor of a new edition. Another compromise would a revised core book. If they take this route they need to take their time with it and to follow the rules in the book to the letter when doing other sourcebooks.

Agreed.

It should have:

New art. Some of the drawings are dated especially the CS units. Plus they have some great talent now as opposed to just Kevin Long.

All well and good. Note, however, that "new art" may well mean "new color art".

All the rules needed to create spells, occs, magic/psionic items, vehicles, planets, galaxies etc. Currently the rules for these are too spread out and there are no rules for occ creation. If it takes two books to do that than so be it. i rather have as much information in one place than hunt around for ot or spend money on others books I really don't need.

That's going a bit overboard. In particular, what use would the average Rifts GM have for planet and galaxy creation rules? Character creation, yes; but pretty much everything else you describe is the sort of thing that I'd stick in a "GM's Toolkit" sourcebook, rather than in the core rulebook.

Make sure none of the rules contradict each other.

Boy, you're really asking for a lot...

No reduntant or duplicate OCCS Time and time again there are too many occs that are just too similiar to one another like the new headhunter variants or the bounty hunter occ from rifts mercenaries. Do the research and write up one occs for the headhunter and stick to it. There really is no need for occs that are similair except to add to the page count.

Agreed. Fewer and more customizable OCCs. Sourcebooks should limit themselves to additional options for existing OCCs wherever possible. RCCs should be of the general nature of PFRPG races (i.e., focus primarily on innate abilities, and leave the training to a separate OCC selection); ditto with Augmented humans (Borgs, Crazies, and Juicers). OCCs, meanwhile, should limit themselves to training and equipment as much as possible.

No poof rules like mages can no longer wear armor or silly rules like the -10 rule. Imo rules like these hinder not add to the system.

Agreed about the mages. It's debatable whether the -10 rule is silly, or if the "no other bonuses" associated rule is silly. The debates should be resolved by the next edition.

Get feedback from the fanbase on what rules should be included. After all we are the ones buying the book.

Agreed - but note that "get feedback" is (fortunately) not the same as "implement every idea submitted".

Give writers a set of guidelines to follow when writing sourcebooks to maintain consistency of the world, reduce powercreep and have a logical flow to the world.

And make said guidelines publicly available, as they'll also be useful to GMs who do their own tinkering.

Remove the color sections. They make the book look pretty but I rather have more information or rules.

It's not an either/or situation - and the color artwork adds significantly to the "coolness" factor that sells Rifts.

Finally if they do a revised edition of Rifts and come out with revised worldbooks please focus on Rifts North America first then go to other places on Rifts Earth. In my experience most campaigns start in North America. I never understood why KS neglected it and decided to focus on other parts of Rifts Earth.

Yes, and no. North America has enough in it to provide a whole line of sourcebooks in and of itself (two of many yet to be published: Lazlo and Northern Gun). If we wait for North America to be fully detailed before going elsewhere, we'll never go elsewhere. Instead, alternate between North America and the rest of the world - and if you can do so in conjunction with the rest of the world interacting with North America, so much the better - the first two "foreign" worldbooks that I'd like to see revised would be Atlantis and Triax, largely due to their North American connections.

And update the setting. Like it or not, Rifts has a meta-plot, and the meta-plot has advanced considerably since the game first came out.

[Sureshot]

Dataweaver wrote:


"All well and good. Note, however, that "new art" may well mean "new color art".

It's not that I don't like color art. I would actually like to see some new color pages not at the expense of game material.

And:

"That's going a bit overboard. In particular, what use would the average Rifts GM have for planet and galaxy creation rules? Character creation, yes; but pretty much everything else you describe is the sort of thing that I'd stick in a "GM's Toolkit" sourcebook, rather than in the core rulebook. "

For the game to be megaversal it needs to have all the rules available for the gm to do this. At least imo. That way the gm can pick and choose what he needs. I do like your idea of a gms toolkit. it would be released at the same tim the revised core book would be released. Or as an alternative male one of the books a "players guide" and one of the other books a "gm guide".

And:

:Agreed. Fewer and more customizable OCCs. Sourcebooks should limit themselves to additional options for existing OCCs wherever possible. RCCs should be of the general nature of PFRPG races (i.e., focus primarily on innate abilities, and leave the training to a separate OCC selection); ditto with Augmented humans (Borgs, Crazies, and Juicers). OCCs, meanwhile, should limit themselves to training and equipment as much as possible."

I agree. Plus once you have an a dragon R.C.C. stick to it. As it stands there are two sets of r.c.c. for dragons and there might be a third with the upcoming dragons and gods and duplicate r.c.c.s for many others. They need to sit down and come up with one and only one r.c.c. for certain creatures to avoid duplication.

No poof rules like mages can no longer wear armor or silly rules like the -10 rule. Imo rules like these hinder not add to the system.

And:

"Agreed about the mages. It's debatable whether the -10 rule is silly, or if the "no other bonuses" associated rule is silly. The debates should be resolved by the next edition. "

Sorry I was unclear it's not the standard -10 rule. It's the modified one that allows no bonuses to dodge. I would make one or the other not both it just makes combat too deadly imo.

And:

"Agreed - but note that "get feedback" is (fortunately) not the same as "implement every idea submitted". "

Not every idea but if the majority of the fanbase wants mages to wear armor again than let mages wear armor again in the new edition unless it really unbalances the game of course.

And:

"And make said guidelines publicly available, as they'll also be useful to GMs who do their own tinkering."

I would take that one step further. Release the Palladium equivalent of an OGL and allow others to publish works using the Palladium rules. Say what you want about the OGL but it's the most used set of rules to write games products today. Hell they are even resurrecting dead game lines. An example is Paranoia XP. As for making a D20 version. I would not mind seeing it and at the sametime not really looking forward to it. Though it would get some new fans interested in the game.

And:

"It's not an either/or situation - and the color artwork adds significantly to the "coolness" factor that sells Rifts."

Like I said I don't mind as long as important information is not cut out of the book because of it.

And:

"Yes, and no. North America has enough in it to provide a whole line of sourcebooks in and of itself (two of many yet to be published: Lazlo and Northern Gun). If we wait for North America to be fully detailed before going elsewhere, we'll never go elsewhere. Instead, alternate between North America and the rest of the world - and if you can do so in conjunction with the rest of the world interacting with North America, so much the better - the first two "foreign" worldbooks that I'd like to see revised would be Atlantis and Triax, largely due to their North American connections.

And update the setting. Like it or not, Rifts has a meta-plot, and the meta-plot has advanced considerably since the game first came out."

If they could provide a balance of both it would be excellent. It took almost 14 years later to finally get books which dealt with North america. I would also add Rifts Africa and Rifts England to the list.

[talmor]

I have yet to see a good reason for a 2nd(or 3rd) edition Rifts book. No point so far.

How's this--it's hard to get people to start playing Rifts or to go back to playing Rifts due to the many problems listed above. Fixing the core book will help bring more players to Rifts, increase the sale of Rift books, increase the profits for Palladium, thereby giving them the the motive to come out with "Rifts World Book 107: The Azores"--which is going to be hands down the greatest source book EVER!

[Sureshot]

I have yet to see a good reason for a 2nd(or 3rd) edition Rifts book. No point so far.

How's this--it's hard to get people to start playing Rifts or to go back to playing Rifts due to the many problems listed above. Fixing the core book will help bring more players to Rifts, increase the sale of Rift books, increase the profits for Palladium, thereby giving them the the motive to come out with "Rifts World Book 107: The Azores"--which is going to be hands down the greatest source book EVER!

I have been extremely lucky to have a bunch of friends who are fans of Palladium but outside of that group I get the same responses listed above. People love the setting hate the rules, or love the setting but not in the mood to house rule. Coming up with a clear concise revised core rulebook or a new edition would be a step in the right direction.

[talmor]

Exactly. The problem with getting folks to play Rifts isn't the concept of Rifts, it's the rules. Every gamer I've known has felt that Rifts is really cool, great concept, cool setting, etc. etc. They just could not get past the rules.

This is the opposite of, say, Vampire. The folks who don't like Vampire or the rest of WW products don't like the themes, concepts, IDEA of the game. It doesn't matter how cool the rules are, they don't want to play the darn game.

Of course, a good GM can get past thost problems farily easily.

Whereas with Rifts, they all mention the rules. Heck, I even had a friend of mine who wanted to use GURPS rules in the Rifts setting. And he doesn't even LIKE GURPS!

[Rallan]

Maybe I'm just biased from a few years of mucking about with White Wolf's stuff, but I think the single biggest weakness in Palladium's RPGs is their complete lack of rules and guidelines for balanced character creation. All they've got is book after book of new character classes with abilities arbitrarily thrown in by whoever was writing it at the time, and the end result is a mess of crap full of multiply redundant examples of the same class (how many more GB pilots are we going to need), old character classes being made completely obsolete by what are basically just higher-powered versions of the same, and a wealth of useless crap in general. A hypothetical Rifts 2nd Ed is going to seriously need to consider some sort of point-based rather than class-based character creation system if they want anything vaguely resembling a smooth, balanced game.

Plus it wouldn't kill them to have a magic system that doesn't look uncannily like 1st ed AD&D.

But of course none of this is going to happen, since Siembieda is of the opinion that the Palladium system is the bees knees and needs no improvements.



Rallan

[Rallan]

Different power levels are easy to do in a point-based system. It's all about how many points different basic types of character get during creation, and what sorts of fancy powers they're allowed to use.

I mean let's just use White Wolf's World Of Darkness games as an example. Right from the word go, the powerful supernatural critters get more points than ordinary humans to spend on stuff, plus they get access to powers, abilities, and other funky perks that humans can't. And then depending on what broad type of character you are, the specific powers and abilities you've got access to during chargen vary wildly. So the basic power levels of characters are going to vary drastically depending on what they are, even though at the end of the day they're all using exactly the same point-based creation system.

[dataweaver]

Assume for the moment that a second edition was being planned, and that the proliferation of OCCs was going to be addressed: how would you do it? A radical solution would be to do away with OCCs entirely, and to instead use something like what Heroes Unlimited has, with its Skill Programs and Power Categories. To an extent, this can already be done: After The Bomb is a setting that is very similar to Rifts (though with a much heavier emphasis on Mutant Animals), but it uses Heroes Unlimited as a baseline. Be that as it may, HU may be a step in the right direction, but it isn't quite right as is as a game engine for Rifts. Things I'd change:

1. Make it an MDC system, or introduce something similar.
2. Attributes: provide an alternative to random attributes.
3. Education and Training: revamp this along the lines of "wilds", "low-class rural life", "middle-class rural life", "upper-class rural life", "low-class urban life", "middle-class urban life", "upper-class urban life", and "military/mercenary life". Remove explicit references to modern-day educational institutions.
4. The Power Categories can largely be kept, though they become even more distinct than their HU counterparts:
   
   • "Aliens" becomes "D-Bee" and is retooled to allow primarily for primitives and modern-day types, with the occasional high-tech refugee in the mix. Provide default rules for "random D-Bee races", or allow the player to pick an RCC. This is where the core book would address Dragons.
   • "Cyborgs" are fine as is - but with origins retooled to account for the more barbaric setting. Possibly make this a subtype of the "Experiments", below.
   • "Experiments" get subdivided into "Crazies" and "Juicers" and renamed as "Augmentations". Each subdivision not only describes the "full conversion" forms, but also suggests MOM Implants, JAEP Systems, and the like which are potentially available to other Categories as minor enhancements, as per the model of cybernetics.
   • "Hardware" gets removed as a separate category; see "Special Training", below.
   • "Magic" gets renamed as "Men of Magic", and heavily emphasizes the "Mystic Study" subcategory, providing "magical OCCs" for Line Walkers, Mystics, Shifters, and Techno-Wizards. The remaining subcategories may or may not even be there.
   • "Mutant" stays, but the only example given in the core book for a Mutant Human is a Psi-Stalker, and the only example given for a Mutant Animal is a Psi-Hound.
   • "Physical Training" gets removed as a separate category; see "Special Training", below.
   • "Psionics" deals primarily with Master Psychics such as the Mind Melter and the Burster. As with the Experiments category above, the concept of Minor and Major Psychics as capabilities available to enhance other Categories gets addressed here.
   • "Robotics" gets removed - there are not enough of the true robots to matter, and the Power Armor and Robot Vehicle pilots get addressed under Special Training.
   • "Special Training" gets broken out into Men of Arms and Scholars & Adventurers.
   • The only question is where to put the Cyber-Knights in this mess.
5. Ditch the Super Powers, obviously; they're not really needed.

[grandmaster z0b]

Plus it wouldn't kill them to have a magic system that doesn't look uncannily like 1st ed AD&D.

aaarg! nooooooo!
It was one of the things that really bothered me about 1st EdAD&D, didn't you have to "memorize" spells and then when you cast them they disappeared from your memory? I like the PPE system, especially when combined with PPE channeling rules. It's the combat system of Rifts that needs to be fixed IMO.

[Rallan]

Plus it wouldn't kill them to have a magic system that doesn't look uncannily like 1st ed AD&D.

aaarg! nooooooo!
It was one of the things that really bothered me about 1st EdAD&D, didn't you have to "memorize" spells and then when you cast them they disappeared from your memory? I like the PPE system, especially when combined with PPE channeling rules. It's the combat system of Rifts that needs to be fixed IMO.

Thing is z0b, changing from spell slots to point costs was pretty much the _only_ change they made, and it shows. Palladium's magic system, no matter how much they try and dress it up, is based on rules that do nothing to reflect the atmosphere at all, and is basically about as atmospheric as the point-and-click-until-the-mana-runs-out system in most computer RPGs, only without any sound effects or animations to distract the player. I'll admit that the magic system can be made playable and balanced without drastically reworking the mechanics of it, but in terms of mechanics that generate atmosphere it's seriously lacking.


Rallan

[Dr. Doom III]

Maybe I'm just biased from a few years of mucking about with White Wolf's stuff, but I think the single biggest weakness in Palladium's RPGs is their complete lack of rules and guidelines for balanced character creation. All they've got is book after book of new character classes with abilities arbitrarily thrown in by whoever was writing it at the time, and the end result is a mess of crap full of multiply redundant examples of the same class (how many more GB pilots are we going to need), old character classes being made completely obsolete by what are basically just higher-powered versions of the same, and a wealth of useless crap in general. A hypothetical Rifts 2nd Ed is going to seriously need to consider some sort of point-based rather than class-based character creation system if they want anything vaguely resembling a smooth, balanced game.

Plus it wouldn't kill them to have a magic system that doesn't look uncannily like 1st ed AD&D.

But of course none of this is going to happen, since Siembieda is of the opinion that the Palladium system is the bees knees and needs no improvements.



Rallan

Balance is overrated.

[Killer Cyborg]

Unfortunately for your point based system... RIFTS never was about being a "smooth, balanced game." You can't have the extremes of Juicers and Vagabonds in the same game if it's "balanced."

Untrue.
Take a look at 3rd Edition AD&D, one of the most balanced games I have ever seen.
You can play a Fighter, Cleric, etc.
Or, if for some reason you want to, you can play a Commoner, Warrior, Aristocrat, or Expert.

Also, there are reasons for playing a Vagabond over a Glitterboy:
-They are less likely to be the first target in every encounter, and won't have to deal with the high repair costs.
-Your gun is likely to have the ammo cost listed somewhere.
-More skills. While they get less OCC skills, a vagabond starts with 8 Other skills, then gets 4 more at levels 2 and three, plus another 2 at level 6, one at level nine, and one at level twelve... total of 20 Other skills.
They start with 6 secondary skills and get another 4 at level three, for a total of 10.
Compare that to the Glitterboys, who get 6 other skills to start, and 2 more at level 3, one at level six, one at level nine, and one at level 12, for a total of 11 Other skills.
And they get 6 Secondary skills.
Vagabond gets a total (including OCC skills) of 33 skills
GB gets a total (including OCC skills) of 30 skills.
Three skills short, and 4 of their skills are primarily used for piloting their power armor, something that a vagabond is unlikely to need to do.
-If you want a thief type character, or a con-man, or a jack-of-all-trades, the vagabond is a strong choice. They level up faster than the GBs, faster than any class other than City Rat, and they gain more skills as they level up than any other class (although they start with less).
-Because they aren't encumbered by power armor, they are more free. They can skip out of a city a step ahead of the law without having to go back and retrieve their armor/vehicle. They can go into a dungeoncrawl without having to park their armor outside and hope nobody steals it.
The GB is pretty much a one-trick pony. It's a heck of a trick, but having that armor can be as much of a disadvantage as an advantage.

The OCCs in the main book actually weren't that unbalanced. Balance is more than who can kill the other in a straight up firefight.
It was only in later books that the OCCs and RCCs got extremely out of balance.
Something that could be remedied in a 2nd Edition.

[grandmaster z0b]

Looking at the amount of arguments about the rules on this board there is no way Palladium could produce a second edition without just starting more arguments. Will it include the -10 rule? Will it have burst rules that make sense? Maybe they should release a book of "core rules" which has a section of "optional rules" that include things from the rifter (PPE channeling, firearm rules from number 11 etc) and common house rules.

There is definately enough material out there, and defining the current rules exactly would be great. I think we need rules for dodging and shooting from behind cover and at fast moving objects, as well as perception checks etc.

[PigLickJF]

Looking at the amount of arguments about the rules on this board there is no way Palladium could produce a second edition without just starting more arguments. Will it include the -10 rule? Will it have burst rules that make sense? Maybe they should release a book of "core rules" which has a section of "optional rules" that include things from the rifter (PPE channeling, firearm rules from number 11 etc) and common house rules.

There is definately enough material out there, and defining the current rules exactly would be great. I think we need rules for dodging and shooting from behind cover and at fast moving objects, as well as perception checks etc.

It would undoubtedly start arguments about the validity or desirability of the new rules, but it would (hopefully) remove most of the arguments about what the rules actually say in the first place. Notice how most of the arguments on here are about how a rule actually works, how it was intended, etc. There shouldn't have to be so much guesswork on the part of the playerbase to try and puzzle out how the basic mechanics of the system work, it should all be spelled out clearly and concisely.

If people then want to argue about whether a certain rule is "good" or not, that's a completely differnt matter, and is completely unavoidable.

PigLick

[Killer Cyborg]

If nothing else, a 2nd edition would give us new things to argue about.
A change of pace does some good occaisionally.

[Killer Cyborg]

=<thorn>

How would this be a change of pace?

Change of terrain, then.