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MattLing wrote:My goal is to change the ruleset in such a way that you don't have to go out and buy all new sourcebooks (though a lot of the sourcebooks could stand to be rewritten).

You got my interest!

Here goes.

Step 1. Damage conversion.

MDC no longer exists. All objects and effects are now SDC.

Then you lost my interest.

MattLing wrote:

Beatleguise wrote:Ummm, the rules already allow for playing either MDC or SDC.

And the conversion rules for doing so are in several different sources.

Im curious as to what purpose your trying to achieve here.

Look at what I've done. It's prett self-evident.

It accomplishes several goals.

1. Making weapons more deadly against armor

except that it being so hard was GOOD IMHO.

2. Making weapons LESS deadly against SDC creatures

don't like it. not a blasted thing wrong with 1MD hit death.

3. Differentiating the weapon classes

I might adopt your differences anyway, while keepthing them MDC.

4. Reducing inconsistencies and consolidating penalties and bonuses.

you also nerfed PP bonuses and took too much out.

5. Making combat more "difficult" in terms of shooting things

I'll admit the min 12 to hit helps a tad

6. Making dodge rolls more logical

no, you made them less logical. the opposed roll system was quite logical as it was.

7. Accomplishing all these things without introducing any new terms

or made a solid effort, good job

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

MattLing wrote:

Beatleguise wrote:Ummm, the rules already allow for playing either MDC or SDC.

And the conversion rules for doing so are in several different sources.

Im curious as to what purpose your trying to achieve here.

Look at what I've done. It's prett self-evident.

It accomplishes several goals.

1. Making weapons more deadly against armor

except that it being so hard was GOOD IMHO.

2. Making weapons LESS deadly against SDC creatures

don't like it. not a blasted thing wrong with 1MD hit death.

3. Differentiating the weapon classes

I might adopt your differences anyway, while keepthing them MDC.

4. Reducing inconsistencies and consolidating penalties and bonuses.

you also nerfed PP bonuses and took too much out.

5. Making combat more "difficult" in terms of shooting things

I'll admit the min 12 to hit helps a tad

6. Making dodge rolls more logical

no, you made them less logical. the opposed roll system was quite logical as it was.

7. Accomplishing all these things without introducing any new terms

or made a solid effort, good job

I find it interesting that I agree with Nekira so often.
Though I disagree on the shooting thing; it's easy to shoot actually, which is why fire-arms became so prevelent. It's easier and cheaper to field an army of untrained peasants than an army of trained warriors.

MattLing wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

MattLing wrote:My goal is to change the ruleset in such a way that you don't have to go out and buy all new sourcebooks (though a lot of the sourcebooks could stand to be rewritten).

You got my interest!

Here goes.

Step 1. Damage conversion.

MDC no longer exists. All objects and effects are now SDC.

Then you lost my interest.

ADD sucks, I know

LOL
Yeah, but in this case I just tend to reject any system that eliminates Mega-Damage.
I like my RPGs deadly.

Personally, I prefer to add a step betwen MDC and SDC where I lump most of the items that shouldn't be on par with a tank, this includes body armour, power armour, borgs and anti-personel weapons. This also includes a lot fo the "organic" MDC creatures too.

Makes things a little more plausable.

It also makes mages, who retain the ability to do MDC, very scary.

looks ok Matt.

As for dropping mdc, well - I'm always torn between dropping it and not (although I have never actually converted everything over to sdc), I normally keep it just to stick closer to the main rules & save myself the conversion woes.

As for a wilks laser doing too little damage (it does half what the other standard laser guns do even in rifts), you can really argue it wither way easily - I'd just like to point out that in revised HU a standard laser pistol deals 4d6sd.. so it looks fine to me.

I like Star Wars, where Leia can get shot in the arm and be OK.

under the old SW D6 system she got shot with a Personal class wepon, that dose almost nothing to anything bigger then humanoids. had that been a Speeder scale, or walker scale she'd been roasted up real good.

but that has nothign to do with anything....

MattLing wrote:I have a power scale in mind that's drastically toned down from what you see from most people, I think.

Like, I've gotten into WH40K lately, and I like how there are still "regular" weapons. A common lasgun does about as much damage as a regular assault rifle; it's advantage lies in its direct-fire ability and the ease to recharge. Also, with my rules anyway, laser weapons have an armor penetration ability that is second to none.

it seems though that a lot of people don't.

I like Star Wars, where Leia can get shot in the arm and be OK. Energy weapons don't have to be 3x more powerful than regular weapons, in my opinion the game works fine if they are simply more effective than regular weapons -in certain situations-. For example, the Ionization Effect, Laser Armor Penetration, Plasma Fires, or the heavy damage from a Particle Beam. A vibro-sword shouldn't be able to cause vibrations that make your body explode-- sorry but I think that's really silly sounding. It should hurt you as much as a regular sword, but be able to cut through armor as easily as it cuts through flesh and bone. That's the difference between a vibro-blade and a regular sword.

vibro swords never made people explode. Conversion book one, or Sourcebook one, made it clear that MD vibro weapons simply cut people and SDC objects in peices like a hot knife though butter.

a vibro sword would cut a man litterally in half with no problem.

Mostly this came about from a desire to have a game where a character is not only as good as his armor, where he can walk around in regular clothes 9/10 of the time-- and not because the organized town militia confiscates all the powerful weapons.

you can already in Rifts.

You're still in danger if you get in a firefight-- but nobody is invincible.

nobody ever was but the Old Ones.

it's interesting. but belive it or not some people just like 100x SDC. I still don't see how MDC as is makes it so you HAVE to live in your armor and such.

Jefffar wrote:Personally, I prefer to add a step betwen MDC and SDC where I lump most of the items that shouldn't be on par with a tank, this includes body armour, power armour, borgs and anti-personel weapons. This also includes a lot fo the "organic" MDC creatures too.

Makes things a little more plausable.

It also makes mages, who retain the ability to do MDC, very scary.

When Mattbaby...ling...whatever... started tinkering with his new rules system he originally started along those lines. In that string I shared my idea for the KDC system (for Kilo Damage) that was just that. A middle ground between the squishy lameness that is SDC the uber harsh lethality that is MDC. Basically the way it worked was it took 10 SDC to do pt of 1 KDC and 1 point of KD would inflict 10 SDC. In the same regards, 1 MD would do 10 pts of KDC or 100 SDC and in return it took 10 KD to burn through 1 pt of MDC, while SDC would still bounce off MDC with the normal exception massive SDC explosions..

The idea was (and frankly still is) to make a straight conversion of all small arms, body armor, and light to medium power armor into KD level items, while the big bots, ships, and heavy power armors (those that are more bot than PA in the first place) would retain their Mega Damage status.

Critters on the other hand would also get a MD/KD split. Only true creatures of magic would remain MD critters like Dragons and the like, while the rest get kicked down to the KD league. Their supernatural strength would corospond to the new scales, retaining their die values but be either MD or KD depending on their protection status.

Also this would be the ultimate fix for magic. If the sluggish 2 per melee round casting speed were retained, it could be off-set by the fact that it does Mega Damge and offers MDC protection! Psychics too could be granted this advantage as well given that their attacks tend to be weaker, but higher in volum than that by spell magic.

Regardless, I think Mat decided against the idea of the three tiered damage system since someone else thought of it first, or wasn't entierly of his own making. That's just a blind guess though. You'd have to ask him why he didn't go with it. As far as I know it was his deep seeded hatred of the MDC system in geteral that swayed him from getting ever deeper into it. Again, just a guess.

While I don't agree with the changes 100%, I like the "weapon traits" a whole heck'uv a lot. Just a few questions:

If a laser will "blow threw" anything that it does 10% or more damage to...does that include a human? I would imagine so, but is there anyway a laser could kill a human with one shot that wasn't a crit?

When talking about GB style armor, wouldn't the amount it could take be DOUBLED instead of halved? 20% vs 5%?

If you don't have 2 attacks for breathing how many do you have? I take it as one. If you get a HTH skill, how many would you have then?

As for "the MDC is the only way to represent a tank" argument, according to Mercenaries (the only book I have near me), an M48A3 Main Battle Tank was 1200 SDC. You can reflect the bad ass tank with AR. You might, if the tank is just sitting there, and you have infinite ammo, be able to damage it beyond use with a hand gun. Take forever and a day, but it could be done.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

MattLing wrote:Mostly this came about from a desire to have a game where a character is not only as good as his armor, where he can walk around in regular clothes 9/10 of the time-- and not because the organized town militia confiscates all the powerful weapons.

you can already in Rifts.

Perhaps he meant walk around in normal clothes 9/10ths of the time on 9/10ths of the planet.

Walking around in normal garb 100% of the time is possible on Rifts earth. Is everything going to happen in those area's though?

MattLing wrote:

StormKnight wrote:Hm, a lot of these sound like house rules I have toyed with...
I think there's an issue with the straight MDC to SDC conversion though. Some characters get massive amounts of SDC (say, Juicers for example). All of a sudden these characters are tougher than tanks, dragons, or just about anything else!

Now that is an excellent point. I am not sure how to deal with massively SDC creatures...

another question.

what about body hardening exersises from Rifts Japan?

they let you spend PPE to turn SDC to MDC, escpecially Chi Gung. how would you handle this?

Michael Valentine Smith wrote:Honestly, if you want my opinion(which, considering my non-existent notoriety, this reply may not even be read), you just cannot seperate Rifts from the Mega-damage system, because it is quite honestly one of the core elements of the game, as well as being a good system in concept.

Sure, there's a powercreep. Sure, using S.D.C. weapons unless forced to is almost unheard of due to the overwhelming amount of M.D.C. equipment/creatures running around. However, this does not make the system inherently flawed and therefore need to be done away with. If used in moderation, and if kept in check, the S.D.C./M.D.C. system works marvellously.

Does the system need reform? Of course it does. No game system can continue to release new material on a consistent basis and not eventually be in need of a bit of an overhaul. A whole new Rifts game? Maybe not. At the very minimum, a published, exacting, clarified system/index for the players so they don't have to comb through thousands of pages of material? Absolutely! We, the players, are looking at quite a number of gray areas as far as the combat rules, and others, are concerned. And if it gets to a point where the most black-and-white rules-area of a game is up to interpretation for almost every GM that encounters it, there's a serious problem, and we're approaching(if we haven't already arrived) at that point.

1, newbies arn't ignored, at least not around these parts.
2. I agree

I've been taking the above stance for a good, long time now.

MattLing wrote:

Michael Valentine Smith wrote:Honestly, if you want my opinion(which, considering my non-existent notoriety, this reply may not even be read), you just cannot seperate Rifts from the Mega-damage system, because it is quite honestly one of the core elements of the game, as well as being a good system in concept.

I just disagree. I see Mega-Damage as being something that was never really necessary in the first place; you can run a sci-fi setting (Aliens Unlimited) without it; you can run a modern setting without it (Systems Failure, Ninjas and Superspies), you can run a fantasy system without it (Palladium Fantasy). But Mega-Damage always struck me as an unecessary mechanic that detracted from what the game was capable of.

it's fun, who cares?

MattLing wrote:I just disagree. I see Mega-Damage as being something that was never really necessary in the first place; you can run a sci-fi setting (Aliens Unlimited) without it; you can run a modern setting without it (Systems Failure, Ninjas and Superspies), you can run a fantasy system without it (Palladium Fantasy). But Mega-Damage always struck me as an unecessary mechanic that detracted from what the game was capable of.

But you're wrong.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

MattLing wrote:I just disagree. I see Mega-Damage as being something that was never really necessary in the first place; you can run a sci-fi setting (Aliens Unlimited) without it; you can run a modern setting without it (Systems Failure, Ninjas and Superspies), you can run a fantasy system without it (Palladium Fantasy). But Mega-Damage always struck me as an unecessary mechanic that detracted from what the game was capable of.

But you're wrong.

Far be it for me to EVER agree with Doom, but in his own monosylabic, proclatory way, he's right. MDC not only makes sense in a sci-fi setting, it also works in a contemporary one as well. With the SDC system coupled with high Armor Rating values for added protection for heavy armor like tanks and heavy doors and the like, you run into the senario of where a troop of cub scouts could take out an Abrams tank with their trusty pocket knives given enough time. I've heard the couner argument for this of, "well it's up the GM to disallow that from happening in the first place." but that dosen't hold water. If something is not allowed, then it should be spelled out in no uncertain terms in the rules of why and how it's not, other than the GM saying, "you can't becasue I said so." The MDC rules completely did away with that and made it so Troop 524 would be slaughtered by a tank. And in the sci-fi setting of Rfits, where it has been described that a soldier in MDC body armor and an MD weapon is the exquivelant of a walking late 20th century tank in terms of armor and firepower, then he too should have little to worry about from the pocket-knife wieldig tikes.

MattLing wrote:But you will ultimately ALWAYS run into that problem. Let's forget a modern setting, go back to the stone age. Troop 524 can't use their prehistoric pledge pins and tiny little boycavemanscout to destroy a boulder. It's ridiculous.

The SDC section in all the Palladium corebooks I've looked at (god knows, with the editting they get, whether yours will say the same), says the GM should use his discretion to figure out what damages what. The specific example is that of a man punching his way through a steel door, which is clearly impossible.

I think that that's an unimaginative, rules-lawyering argument to get around the fact that MDC is, well, dumb as all hell.

it's not dumb. it's FUN.

you don't see it as necessary, but you've yet to prove how it detracts

MattLing wrote:The specific example is that of a man punching his way through a steel door, which is clearly impossible.

Unless...
-You're playing Ninjas & Superspies
-Or Heroes Unlimited
-Or the door isn't very thick.... my storm door is steel, and I accidentally kicked a hole in it.

The thing is, Mattling, that the rules are there in order for the game to be more than just "use your own judgement".
You could just really skip the entire system of rules and use your own judgement instead, but what's the point in that?

RPGs are a formalized way of playing "Let's Pretend".
The fundamental problem with "Let's Pretend" is that different people have different views on things. This is why every playground and backyard where little kids play "guns" or "cowboys and indians" or "Cryps and Bloods" or whatever has seen the following argument:
"Bang! I got you!!"
"No, you missed!"

The rules exist to settle and prevent such arguments.
In the case of the steel door, there are probably plenty of people who think that they COULD kick open a steel door.
Or GMs that think you couldn't punch down an interior panel door with your bare hands.
Usually the GM settles such disputes, but GMs aren't perfect; I've met more than a few that have twisted views of physics.
The rules of a RPG are the physics of the gameworld. They exist in order to provide order and a method of determining what is and is not possible in that world, and to do it in such a way as to minimize arguments.
So the GM doesn't have to convince his player that a specific tank is impervious to specific rounds of ammunition.
Or that EBA can survive the impact of a .50 cal machingun.
Or any of the other things that come up in RPGs.
The Megadamage system isn't perfect, but it gets the job done.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

MattLing wrote:The specific example is that of a man punching his way through a steel door, which is clearly impossible.

Unless...
-You're playing Ninjas & Superspies
-Or Heroes Unlimited
-Or the door isn't very thick.... my storm door is steel, and I accidentally kicked a hole in it.

The thing is, Mattling, that the rules are there in order for the game to be more than just "use your own judgement".
You could just really skip the entire system of rules and use your own judgement instead, but what's the point in that?

RPGs are a formalized way of playing "Let's Pretend".
The fundamental problem with "Let's Pretend" is that different people have different views on things. This is why every playground and backyard where little kids play "guns" or "cowboys and indians" or "Cryps and Bloods" or whatever has seen the following argument:
"Bang! I got you!!"
"No, you missed!"

The rules exist to settle and prevent such arguments.
In the case of the steel door, there are probably plenty of people who think that they COULD kick open a steel door.
Or GMs that think you couldn't punch down an interior panel door with your bare hands.
Usually the GM settles such disputes, but GMs aren't perfect; I've met more than a few that have twisted views of physics.
The rules of a RPG are the physics of the gameworld. They exist in order to provide order and a method of determining what is and is not possible in that world, and to do it in such a way as to minimize arguments.
So the GM doesn't have to convince his player that a specific tank is impervious to specific rounds of ammunition.
Or that EBA can survive the impact of a .50 cal machingun.
Or any of the other things that come up in RPGs.
The Megadamage system isn't perfect, but it gets the job done.

Krikey! We agree on something. LOL.
BTW... how does one "accidentally" kick a hole in a storm door?

Vrykolas2k wrote:
BTW... how does one "accidentally" kick a hole in a storm door?

I was trying to scare my cat.

(It worked...)

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:
BTW... how does one "accidentally" kick a hole in a storm door?

I was trying to scare my cat.

(It worked...)

LOL!!!
I bet!

HEY!!!! I have a great idea to solve all the power problems in Rifts.

SDC no longer exsits. the surge of Magic turned EVERYTHING into MDC. material that would be MDC anyway, like a Glitter Boy, have 50% more MDC and MDC weapons do 50% more damage.

MattLing wrote:OK fine, maybe you have a point. But there's still the same problem in RIFTS. Look at my examples. A 20th century Buick is an SDC object and thus subject to the Girl Scouts of Doom. As is a brick wall. At some point the GM has to draw a line. You never have problems in D&D with PCs just punching their way through a dungeon. Why? I don't know.

Actually, Girl Scouts are all MDC beings with Supernatural PS and TW Cookies... didn't you see the new OCC in "Rifts Sourcebook 6: Selling Door-to-Door"?
It's right next to the "Kirbinator" power armor...


Okay, seriously...
You're right that the problem still exists, but it is somewhat minimized by MDC.
Other systems have come up with better ways of explaining in game terms why you can't punch your way through granite walls, and palldium COULD do a lot better.
My cheap patch is simply to give any inanimate object damage reduction equal to its AR. (I use the Copy Physical Structure for a lot of ARs).
So if you are hitting a stone wall that has AR: 15, you reduce the damage of any attack by 15 points.
This keeps most people from significantly damaging it with their bare hands.
Sure, there are a lot of things that don't have ARs l

MattLing wrote:OK fine, maybe you have a point. But there's still the same problem in RIFTS. Look at my examples. A 20th century Buick is an SDC object and thus subject to the Girl Scouts of Doom. As is a brick wall. At some point the GM has to draw a line. You never have problems in D&D with PCs just punching their way through a dungeon. Why? I don't know.

Gimme gauntlets of ogre power and I'll punch through your carefully crafted maze any day of the week!!!
Give the Girl Scouts sledge hammers and O YES!!! that brick house will come down!!

Actually, Girl Scouts are all MDC beings with Supernatural PS and TW Cookies... didn't you see the new OCC in "Rifts Sourcebook 6: Selling Door-to-Door"?
It's right next to the "Kirbinator" power armor...


LMAO!!! You're trying to kill us!!!