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the -10 rule and 2 attacks for living are covered in the Rifts Game Masters guide, and now the latest editions of RMB have it too.

I don't see why it's such a big deal with this situation. This merely adds to the realism of the games. If this rule was originally left out, there is no doubt that there would be someone on here complaining about how unreal it is to dodge a bullet. But also, if you don't like the rule, just omit it. Why complain? If you want, play the Samurai O.C.C. or something. The fact is, any mortal, or even extremely agile character, is still only so fast. This game is called Rifts, not Trigun, where the anime hero can dodge bullets insanely. To tell the truth, my GM nor i when i GMed have ever used this rule. Am i condridicting what i stated earlier? No, because while i believe it makes sense, adding realism to the game, as a GM i prefer to omit it. No biggie.

Mikica1986 wrote:-10 rule is only used when attacker uses scope and is making aimed attack, it is not in use when using burst or wild shot (this can be found in Revisited Conversion Book)

never read that either

I would believe it more difficult because A. The bullet travels to your body faster then the range does. You are hit sooner. B. If you are at a distance someone is less likely to hit you. It becomes harder unless you have some sort of scope. C. What is easier? Shooting someone 20 feet away from you, or 60 feet?

xia_nt wrote:anyone trained in the use of a weapon can hit a target at 100 yards(maybe not a bulls eye but a hit) if they take a second to aim. As hunter I know this as fact.

I don't believe anyone has a problem with how easy or hard it is to shoot a target that is unaware of the shooter.
Next time you're hunting let the deer know you're there before you shoot. Then you can tell us how easy or hard it was.

Lord Thanatos wrote:

RPGMAN wrote:I'm pretty sure most will not believe this...
...I became a firm believer in this interpretation after I was in Milwaukee and a guy pointed a gun at me and fired and I "dodged" out of the way. He did this twice and I just got the hell away from where he was pointing the pistol - I don't think I've moved that fast since in my whole life. He was about 30 feet from me. If he was farther (like, a football field away) I doubt I would have been able to tell where it was pointed, but I might have, who knows.


I would have to agre with you, if you know something is coming, and you can see it, then yu have a general idea of where its going, when its all far way, you cant really tell any thing about it. so id have to say that 1) if you dont like the rule, dont use it. 2) when its far, keep the -10, the closer the shot, the easier it is to dodge, if for some reason, your geting shot a from 10 feet away, you have an idea on where the bullet is goin, there for, less of a penilty to dodge it and so on, you get my point?

Yah, but from further away you may not know exactly where he's pointing the gun, but if you know it's pointing at you, those quick, erratic movements would make it that much more difficult to hit. When you're up close you may be able to see the gun and the shooter better so you can dodge better, but by the same token the shooter doesn't have to try and react as quickly or as precisely as he would at a distance, so in my opinion, it evns things out.

PigLick

The rationale for the -10 rule is flawed, since it assumes that people are "dodging" out of the way of the laser blast, or bullet, etc. as if they can see it coming and react to it. But a "dodge" isn't supposed to be a specific movement designed to avoid exactly where the attack was aimed, rather, it represents running, changing direction, jumping behind cover, or taking other actions intended to make it harder for the attacker to aim their weapon accurately. The concept of actually "dodging" out of the way of a high velocity projectile or an energy beam is totally ridiculous. Once a laser blast is fired, there is nothing the target can do to avoid the blast if it is aimed directly at the target, since it moves at the speed of light. Even a bullet, which typically travels faster than mach 1, would be impossible to react to because the bullet reaches you before the sound of the gunshot (since the bullet is travelling faster than the speed of sound), so by the time you hear the gunshot the bullet has already arrived. And even if there was a delay of a fraction of a second between hearing or seeing a bullet or laser blast and trying to react to it, a character simply couldn't move fast enough to get out of the way in such a short amount of time. Unless the character is using some tricky matrix moves or has some type of supernatural powers (precognition or something similar), there is no way they could ever actually avoid an accurately aimed gunshot or laser blast once it is fired. I completely ignore the -10 rule because it just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

I just play my samurai that has a major P.P. advantage.

anyone trained in the use of a weapon can hit a target at 100 yards(maybe not a bulls eye but a hit) if they take a second to aim. As hunter I know this as fact.

Well, that might be with a high powered rifle. 100 yards with a hangun is no chance. I agree with the others here, that you can't dodge a bullet or laser. You can just move around and make yourself harder to hit. In the game, this would be represented by rolling a d20 to dodge. There are no negatives in the game for firing at a moving target, so the -10 rule makes things very unfair to the target.

-Vek
"Never been shot at!"

The two attacks thing is in my 11th edition copy... so is -10, but you get your dodge bonuses from what i can make out...

physics?

Res Sin Kai wrote:I don't see why it's such a big deal with this situation. This merely adds to the realism of the games. If this rule was originally left out, there is no doubt that there would be someone on here complaining about how unreal it is to dodge a bullet.

Actually, in the early games (TMNT, Robotech, etc) this rule was left out. It was added becaouse so many people whined about it being "unrealistic". Now its here, and people still whine. Proof you cant please everybody all the time.

Having dodged more bullets than I'd care to admit to, If you can see where they are aiming (ie AT YOU) then its a good idea to move. The fact that Im not perforated proves that a fat lazy guardsman can do it, IF THEY SEE IT COMING. That means that you see the shmuck pointing a gun at you, and you move(unless your bucking for a purple heart). NOw if you dont see the guy, and your just basing it off the report, well,your toast. you cant dodge what you cant see. Hopefully your party will send flowers to the funeral.

Haha.

"I don't know officer...he sorta...ran into my bullet.."

Lenwë Ancalímon wrote:I've been to the gun range enough times and I've seen the ability of the "average" person to hit a target 30 ft. away. And from what I've seen, if someone points a gun at you, you're better off staying real still. There are A LOT of bad aimers out there.

True, I was refering to trained shooters.
However, I still maintain that the fact I aint got no bullet hole in me proves that you can dodge, if you see 'em aiming at you (in your direction)

Larry97501 wrote:The B.S. known as the -10 rule. . . & the non existant 2 for living rule. . .

Page 35 in my Copy of the RMB (Silver Hardbound printed 1995)

Step 3:
Note: Bullets & Energy Attacks cannot be parried, but can be dodged. Defending by Dodging or Entangling means automatically giving up the melee attack.

Entangle means the character actually pins or snares the opponents weapon or arm.

The defender can only defend against attacks within his line of vision. Attacks from the rear can not be parried, dodged, or entangled.

Page 35 in my Copy of the RMB (Silver Hardbound printed 1995)

Hand to Hand Combat: Fighting skills that provide the characters with attacks per melee, bonuses, and techniques. Characters without combat training have only one attack per melee, and have no automatic chance to parry.

Page 257 in my Copy of the RMB (Silver Hardbound printed 1995)

Coalition Grunt
Combat: Hand to Hand Expert: 2 attacks per melee, +1 to parry & dodge generally.

Coalition Samas
Combat: Hand to Hand Expert + Elite Power Armor Training: 4 attacks per melee, +2 strike, +4 parry & dodge, +5 to roll with impact.

Headhunter
Combat: Hand to Hand Expert: 2 attacks per melee, generally +1 to strike, +4 to parry & dodge, +2 roll with impact.

Page 42 in my Copy of the RMB (Silver Hardbound printed 1995)

An Example of combat, as you read through this you will notice that the samas pilots only recieve 4 attacks not 6 as would be the case in the other books, also you will notice that there are no penalties to dodge a rail gun burst, or any other penalties besides the loss of your next attack.

So what's the question?

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Veknironth wrote:

anyone trained in the use of a weapon can hit a target at 100 yards(maybe not a bulls eye but a hit) if they take a second to aim. As hunter I know this as fact.

Well, that might be with a high powered rifle. 100 yards with a hangun is no chance. I agree with the others here, that you can't dodge a bullet or laser. You can just move around and make yourself harder to hit. In the game, this would be represented by rolling a d20 to dodge. There are no negatives in the game for firing at a moving target, so the -10 rule makes things very unfair to the target.

-Vek
"Never been shot at!"

That would be the accuracy of the weapon Vek. Which of course is another questionable rule. 500' range with accuracy on a laser pistol? Max range maybe, but max effective is a hell of a lot shorter.

ummm, it said plaininly in the books that the listed range IS the maximum effective range, and that shots beyond that are -1 stike every 50 feet beyond that.

This message has been moved to the Rifts Forum, where the topic is more applicable and appropriate. If you have a problem with how this post was handled please direct all inquires to prettzkun@hotmail.com, including the url to the post in question.

After having about being on the wrong end of a hunting accident i have to say that if you cant see the shooter there is no way to dodge it. But you can dodge or at least be able to move out of the area the gun is pointing in. So I dont use the -10 rule. As for the 2 for living rule I dont have a problem with it. It hasnt really affected things much except to maybe make combat longer but generally with the powerful weapons people use and if you think it out things usually work out in the end any how.

Sir Darom wrote:Even if the rule made sense, I would still ignore it. This is not how the Rifts system started out, it's like they tacked it on in the middle of the game.

Like?

Larry97501 wrote:BTW I still am considered an Expert Marksmen in the U.S. Army, which requires 30 out of 40 shots hitting targets varied from 50 yards to 300 meters, the 50 yard target is usually up for only a second or 2 while the 300 meter target is up for 12. . .

They must have lowered the standards since I was a soldier. Used to be you had to hit 36 out of 40 to be qualified expert; you would have only been qualified a sharpshooter with 30 out of 40.

RPGMAN wrote:I doubt I would have been able to tell where it was pointed, but I might have, who knows.

Here's a guess, it'd be pointed at you! Really the old 'can't dodge surprise attacks' covers the long range thing. Otherwise, once your being shot at, it's a matter of not being where you were and not moving in a predictable/leadable path.

mike parkes wrote:with lasers I think that the -10 rule is more than fair. Laser weapons would reach the target at the speed of light as pointed out before, but more importantly it isn't affected by gravity like fire arms. As long as the weapon is pointed at the target when it is fired (the char. makes the role to hit) it would hit. It would be completely and utterly impossible to not be hit.

You are quite correct. Now, all you need is a shooter who will know when he's got a bead on the target and in that same instant, pull the trigger. If he can do this, he will hit just as you say.

Notice how its not the gun that's the weak link here? It's the gunman...and dodging is attempting to exploit that weak link.

Noon wrote:You are quite correct. Now, all you need is a shooter who will know when he's got a bead on the target and in that same instant, pull the trigger. If he can do this, he will hit just as you say.

Notice how its not the gun that's the weak link here? It's the gunman...and dodging is attempting to exploit that weak link.

Yep.
Anyone remember Duck Hunt on the NES?
That shot a laser at the speed of light but those stupid ducks were still hard to hit.

danboals wrote:

Larry97501 wrote:BTW I still am considered an Expert Marksmen in the U.S. Army, which requires 30 out of 40 shots hitting targets varied from 50 yards to 300 meters, the 50 yard target is usually up for only a second or 2 while the 300 meter target is up for 12. . .

They must have lowered the standards since I was a soldier. Used to be you had to hit 36 out of 40 to be qualified expert; you would have only been qualified a sharpshooter with 30 out of 40.

Last I checked was 36 out of 40 also... hmm...

This is a good time for me to quote from my favorite article regarding the realism of dodging energy weapons:

One might argue that it is impossible to dodge or parry a bullet or an energy blast, but here are two things to consider that make the dodge appropriate.
1. Most of the Rifts player characters are superhuman, whether they are supernatural, alien, or have been mechanically, chemically, magically, or otherwise augmented beyond the normal range of human ability. Characters like the Juicer and Crazies possess accelerated metabolisms and heightened senses that may enable them to see a blast coming or allow them to dive out of harm's way, when they realize they are being attacked.
2. One might think of the Dodge roll not so much as the character seeing and moving out of the way of an energy blast, but as a combination of an attacker's penalty for shooting at a moving target and the luck of the intended victim. It is always more difficult to hit a moving/dodging target than it is to hit a stationary target. Even today, people "dodge the bullet" by means of running in a zig-zagging pattern, executing a quick movememt, or by leaps and rolls.

In many instances, it is luck more than anything else. Obviously, the intended victim cannot see the bullet coming, but he can judge the angle of trajectory by observing the movement of his attacker and the direction of the attack, giving him a chance to try to moce out of harm's way. Success may be luck, but it can work.

(the above article was written, of course, by Kevin Siembieda.)

I think the most sensible way to handle this is either
a) keep the old rules ie. not using the -10 or
b)use -10 with bonuses but apply penalties when shooting a moving target

Otherwise it's just too easy to shoot someone which dosen't seem realistic but IMHO it's also dosen't lead to very fun or interesting combat in games.

Dave...

Do yourself a favour...

Next time some idiot pulls a gun on you (and you'll notice I'm not griping about how could he have pointed a piece of 2000lb field artillery at you ), do exactly what the nice man tells you to do, and don't make any sudden moves.

This advice has been handed out in self defence classes by cops and multiple belt martial arts instructors for years.

a) He's there for your money, not your life.
b) He's probably about as good a shot as a newborn, so you bouncing off walls is likely to IMPROVE the probability of a hit if he shoots.
c) If he IS going to shoot so he can pick-over your corpse, don't move while the gun is pointed at you, wait until he "twitches." (If he's not used to the weapon, he's likely to pull it off his bead when he's about to shoot.) Then kiss your cahones g'bye. Besides, if he doesn't hit you on the first shot, you can always "go down" ad roll behind a dumpster and THEN try to dig through the brick wall while some nice concerned citizen calls 9-1-1 to report her kitty cat stuck in a tree!

Besides, there was a case not that long ago up here in my city where some jacka$$ decided to empty a revolver into the guy in the car next to him. All six shots hit the car. Not a one hit the driver - who had no idea what was happening!

Killer Cyborg wrote:This is a good time for me to quote from my favorite article regarding the realism of dodging energy weapons:

One might argue that it is impossible to dodge or parry a bullet or an energy blast, but here are two things to consider that make the dodge appropriate.
1. Most of the Rifts player characters are superhuman, whether they are supernatural, alien, or have been mechanically, chemically, magically, or otherwise augmented beyond the normal range of human ability. Characters like the Juicer and Crazies possess accelerated metabolisms and heightened senses that may enable them to see a blast coming or allow them to dive out of harm's way, when they realize they are being attacked.
2. One might think of the Dodge roll not so much as the character seeing and moving out of the way of an energy blast, but as a combination of an attacker's penalty for shooting at a moving target and the luck of the intended victim. It is always more difficult to hit a moving/dodging target than it is to hit a stationary target. Even today, people "dodge the bullet" by means of running in a zig-zagging pattern, executing a quick movememt, or by leaps and rolls.

In many instances, it is luck more than anything else. Obviously, the intended victim cannot see the bullet coming, but he can judge the angle of trajectory by observing the movement of his attacker and the direction of the attack, giving him a chance to try to moce out of harm's way. Success may be luck, but it can work.

(the above article was written, of course, by Kevin Siembieda.)

yes... this comes from Conversion Book (the old one) p10.
When I read it, I found that explanation really good, and enough for me.

But then, you find the exact opposite article in the GMG, as an explanation of using the -10 rule...

BOTH were published and (I think) both come from Mr KS.... Interesting how you can create 2 different (and opposed) rules, and find perfectly logical explanations....

Since the -10 rule is recent, I "guess" it is the *official* rule for Rifts for now. But finding opposing articles and rules as the above shows you (at least , it did for me) how to handle things...

1. Mr KS does WHATEVER he wants with HIS game and rules, including changing everything after a few years.... (This is the same idea you have to process when you think about Mr George Lucas and his *new* modifications to the original StarWars trilogy in the DVD)

2. At the end YOU are the one who decide the rules to use, it doesn't matter if they are old, new, house rules, etc. Use those YOU feel comfortable with.


Because of this, I do not use the -10 rule. I just don't like it, and I tend to agree with the Conversion Book article. This is a game, and I like the idea of characters dodging ranged weapons.
I may use a variation for some special cases....

But I do like the 2+ attacks .... Even an old 60-year woman with no training can hit his son with her purse at least 2 times in 15 seconds!

Hav0k wrote:But I do like the 2+ attacks .... Even an old 60-year woman with no training can hit his son with her purse at least 2 times in 15 seconds!

No.
Someone with no hand-to-hand training gets one attack per melee.

GlitterMan wrote:

z0b wrote:b)use -10 with bonuses but apply penalties when shooting a moving target

This would be the one I use. I've found it creates the right amount of missing and hitting ratio. I also apply penalties for range and for moving/doding while you are shooting (via imposing wild shooting).

I've never tried this, but it sounds like it would work well, what penalties do you apply?

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Hav0k wrote:But I do like the 2+ attacks .... Even an old 60-year woman with no training can hit his son with her purse at least 2 times in 15 seconds!

No.
Someone with no hand-to-hand training gets one attack per melee.

yes, you are right Doom... my mistake....

z0b wrote:

GlitterMan wrote:

z0b wrote:b)use -10 with bonuses but apply penalties when shooting a moving target

This would be the one I use. I've found it creates the right amount of missing and hitting ratio. I also apply penalties for range and for moving/doding while you are shooting (via imposing wild shooting).

I've never tried this, but it sounds like it would work well, what penalties do you apply?

This sounds good... would be also please illustrate with an example?

Actually...a natural "1" is not a miss...unless you have no modifiers to hit.

I keep the -10 pretty standard in my games, with no bonuses, of course. And even then, only the likes of a Juicer or Quick-Flex (or, gods forbid, a Quick-Flex Hyperion Juicer) have the stuff needed to get the chance to roll.

Dodging light has that kinda effect, but nothing says human/D-bee error can't take a hand. I'm pretty good with penalties to Strike in various situations. All the WPs and laser sights in the world don't help when you're trying to pick off a Psi-Stalker from the back of a pickup truck headed down the side of a hill...