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In another topic, Tyciol insisted that the skill of Sniper didn't have any prerequisites and that it could be used with "all sorts of weapons".
He didn't want to debate it there, so he suggested I start a new thread.
One dose of morbid curiosity later, here we are.

I'll start off by posting the skill description:

Sniper: This skill represents special training in long range rifle firing and marksmanship. Only rifles that can be made to fire a single round or blast can be used for sniping (no automatic/multi-firing rifles). Adds a bonus of +2 to strike on an aimed shot.

Now it seems pretty clear to me, especially that first part:
"This skill represents special training in long range rifle firing"

So I really have little to no idea what Tyciol has in mind.
My best guess is that he's been looking at the Palladium Fantasy book, where the skill is used with Longbows instead of rifles.
Who knows?

We're about to find out, though...

Let's see if I can predict the counter argument.

But it says "and marksmanship". You can be a marksman with any projectile weapon.

[quote="Dr. Doom III]But it says "and marksmanship". You can be a marksman with any projectile weapon.
[/quote]

It says long range rifle firing and marksmanship, which means long range rifle firing, and long range rifle marksmanship.

In my games, I let players use the skill with just about any weapon including: bows, assault rifles, shotguns, energy rifles. But you're right KC, they have to have a skill to combine it with, if they lack the appropriate WP skill, I will not let them apply the +2 to that shot.

So, weapon + sniper skill + aimed shot = no +2
WP weapon + sniper skill + aimed shot = +2 strike

We talked about called shots vs. aimed shots a couple of weeks ago, I would think that any weapon you can do an aimed shot with as per our discussion would be appropriate to apply sniper skill to. I see the skill as being useful for both hunting and for target shooting, as well as combat sniping.

mike parkes wrote:I agree with you it seems pretty clear. Single shot only. Rifle only.

Yep

I've allowed it to be used with single shot rifles AND bows and arrows, as Rifts is the melting pot of the Megaverse and skills from all the Palladium books could find their way to Rifts. But not just any weapon you want. Only those two examples.

Tyciol wrote:Doom is correct, it's marksmanship too.

For an example, see Spirit West. Sniper works with Arrows and Thrown Spears. The T-Archer in Splynn Dimensional Market also uses Sniper with his bow.

Yay, problem solved.

1. No. Just no.
2. By that logic, if the description for Pilot: Auto was "Training in the basics of maintaining a car and driving", then you could use the skill to pilot anything that you can "drive". You're just taking one word out of context.
3. That still doesn't explain how you can have "special training in long range rifle firing and marksmanship" without having any weapon proficiencies.
4. It doesn't say "Long range rifle firing or marksmanship. Even if you were reading it right, it would mean that you needed WP Rifle and whatever other missile weapon you wanted to use.[/code]

Double post.
Sorry about that.

Tyciol wrote:Doom is correct, it's marksmanship too.

For an example, see Spirit West. Sniper works with Arrows and Thrown Spears. The T-Archer in Splynn Dimensional Market also uses Sniper with his bow.

Yay, problem solved.

Doom is correct in that it is the argument you would use.

Doom is also correct when he says it's wrong.

Well, the problem is the confusion of a descriptor for a military specialist with a descriptor for a skill in precision shooting

According to the Palladium system, you can use a rifle without a WP.


Incidently, the PFRPG sniper rules focus on the use of bow weapons.

Jefffar wrote:According to the Palladium system, you can use a rifle without a WP.

But can you be a sniper without really knowing how to use a rifle?

Dr. Doom III wrote:But can you be a sniper without really knowing how to use a rifle?

I can't find anything officially in palladium one way or another.



Of course, back in Recon, where the Sniper Skill first appeared, all it did was add a bonus to your proficiencies with Semi-Automatic and Bolt Action rifles.

Tyciol wrote:There's two ways to interpret it.

Long range rifle 'firing' and 'marksmanship'.
Long range 'rifle firing' and 'marksmanship'.

The first is yours, the second is mine. Since it can be used with Archery and Throwing Spears, mine must be correct. I don't see why it's such a stretch. A real agent wouldn't limit himself to a simple weapon. Quite honestly I could see the sniping skill being used with blow darts.

As for the second point of discontent, which is whether or not it has any prerequisites, it doesn't. It's a general espionage skill (and not any type of sharpshooting) because it is the ability to stay calm, focus in on the target, and thus have a better likelyhood of hitting him. Since espionage features other feats of vertsatile dexturity and mind control such as escape artistry, pickpocketing, and I believe in later books, interrogation. Having a weapon proficiency definately helps though, a sniper without one isn't as good as someone with one and without sniper making an aimed shot.

Let's look at both of our interpretations and see if one is more logical than the other:

Mine= the skill is called "Sniper" and it helps on aimed shots from rifles only. You cannot take this skill unless you are already proficient with rifles.

Yours= The skill called "Sniper" is an uber-skill that applies to rifles, slingshots, blowguns, spears, squirt guns, and any other missile weapon. There is no prerequisite for the skill; you can become a Sniper with any weapon regardless of whether you have ever fired one before or not.

I (of course) tend to think my take makes a whole lot more sense.
Especially since the skill wouldn't do you any good without the right WP.
Without the WP you can't make aimed shots, and that's the only type of shot that Sniper helps with.
For that matter, I don't think you can make an aimed shot with a bow or thrown weapon...

Jefffar wrote:

Dr. Doom III wrote:But can you be a sniper without really knowing how to use a rifle?

I can't find anything officially in palladium one way or another.

I can. Page 39 of the GMG: "Anybody who does not have a WP in a particular weapon type CAN use the weapon but without benefit of any bonuses."
If you get no bonuses then you wouldn't get the bonuses from the sniper skill either. You MUST have a WP that applies to sniper, weither bolt action rifle or bow and arrow whichever your GM allows, in order to get any benifits from the skill sniper.

Tyciol wrote:Thank you for clarifying that TM, as KC seems to be taking it the wrong way.

You don't need a WP skill to select sniper, but if you attempt to use sniper in something you don't have a WP with, it won't work.

As for 'aimed shots only', a normal strike roll with a bow or spear would be considered an aimed shot, since it is meant to be used with those skills.

I'm surprised you would bring squirtguns into this KC, as there are water RIFLES, so even going by your rules you could use them with sniper. The range isn't all that good though...

How do you learn to be a sniper never having learned how to use a gun?

Dr. Doom III wrote:
How do you learn to be a sniper never having learned how to use a gun?

Online classes. Or videos, if you don't have internet acces. Duh.

PigLick

Tyciol wrote:Learning to focus in on a target and apply your aim to it. You can do it with Archery & Targetting and Spears, after all, Doom. Are you saying the Spirit West OCCs with it have used guns? I find that a bit hard to believe...

Let me rephrase what Doom was asking:

How do you become a sniper without learning to use a weapon?

Tyciol wrote:You don't need a WP skill to select sniper, but if you attempt to use sniper in something you don't have a WP with, it won't work.

And it doesn't seem bizarre to you that you could take a skill that is useless without Weapon Proficiencies, without taking a WP first?

As for 'aimed shots only', a normal strike roll with a bow or spear would be considered an aimed shot, since it is meant to be used with those skills.

No, it wouldn't. The skill description says "+2 on aimed shots", and that's all it does. A normal strike with a bow or spear is a normal strike with a bow or spear. Otherwise it would get the +3 bonus to strike for being an aimed shot.

I'm surprised you would bring squirtguns into this KC, as there are water RIFLES, so even going by your rules you could use them with sniper. The range isn't all that good though...

The Sniper skill would only work with Squirt Rifles if they use WP Rifle. If they require WP Squirt Gun, then the Sniper skill wouldn't do any good.

Tyciol wrote:Learning to focus in on a target and apply your aim to it. You can do it with Archery & Targetting and Spears, after all, Doom. Are you saying the Spirit West OCCs with it have used guns? I find that a bit hard to believe...

They can use guns.
As long as they are old guns like a Winchester. Even the traditionalists.

A Sniper with a spear? LOL

I apply sniper to ANY applicable weapon...

However, the intent it to boot your LR fire to make an accurate shot (and therefore a kill) more likely.

So...thrown weapons...most no, but there are always exceptions to every rule...after all, this IS Palladium Books we're talking about!

Bows...iffy...they call the art of using a bow accurately "archery" for a reason.

Crossbow...damn straight you can!

Black-powder weapons...as long as you have it properly braced...sure!

Modern projectile weapons...semis or SS only. No machine guns. For "Sniping Bursts," MAYBE a simple double tap, but a third pulse/bullet/blast, no.

Pistols...ONLY with the proper accessories.

Missiles/GLs, fat chance.

If any of my players tries to "snipe" a target at close range, they'd better hope that they can't be seen, otherwise they might have a surprise on their hands as the guy they're trying to snipe starts to beat the m to death!

Temporalmage wrote:I've allowed it to be used with single shot rifles AND bows and arrows, as Rifts is the melting pot of the Megaverse and skills from all the Palladium books could find their way to Rifts. But not just any weapon you want. Only those two examples.

Why not a crossbow it is more like a rifle than a bow and arrow is. The equivalent of a sniper rifle would be a siege arbalest.

Tyciol wrote:Doom is correct, it's marksmanship too.

For an example, see Spirit West. Sniper works with Arrows and Thrown Spears. The T-Archer in Splynn Dimensional Market also uses Sniper with his bow.

Yay, problem solved.

? It seemed that doom was against any weapon. Hence

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Tyciol wrote:Doom is correct, it's marksmanship too.

For an example, see Spirit West. Sniper works with Arrows and Thrown Spears. The T-Archer in Splynn Dimensional Market also uses Sniper with his bow.

Yay, problem solved.

1. No. Just no.
2. By that logic, if the description for Pilot: Auto was "Training in the basics of maintaining a car and driving", then you could use the skill to pilot anything that you can "drive". You're just taking one word out of context.
3. That still doesn't explain how you can have "special training in long range rifle firing and marksmanship" without having any weapon proficiencies.
4. It doesn't say "Long range rifle firing or marksmanship. Even if you were reading it right, it would mean that you needed WP Rifle and whatever other missile weapon you wanted to use.[/code]

Your mostly correct

3. You can be trained on proper body position, how to adjust for wind, how to compensate for extended ranges, how to breath before touching a gun. So it doesn't require a prerequisite but in order to use the weapon properly you should still be required to have the WP. So effectively, I guess it could be considered as a prerequisite.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Tyciol wrote:Doom is correct, it's marksmanship too.

For an example, see Spirit West. Sniper works with Arrows and Thrown Spears. The T-Archer in Splynn Dimensional Market also uses Sniper with his bow.

Yay, problem solved.

1. No. Just no.
2. By that logic, if the description for Pilot: Auto was "Training in the basics of maintaining a car and driving", then you could use the skill to pilot anything that you can "drive". You're just taking one word out of context.
3. That still doesn't explain how you can have "special training in long range rifle firing and marksmanship" without having any weapon proficiencies.
4. It doesn't say "Long range rifle firing or marksmanship. Even if you were reading it right, it would mean that you needed WP Rifle and whatever other missile weapon you wanted to use.[/code]

Your mostly correct

3. You can be trained on proper body position, how to adjust for wind, how to compensate for extended ranges, how to breath before touching a gun. So it doesn't require a prerequisite but in order to use the weapon properly you should still be required to have the WP. So effectively, I guess it could be considered as a prerequisite.

Sure, and you can even be trained on how to load a gun, aim it, and pull the trigger before you touch a gun.
That doesn't mean that it isn't all part of the basic Weapon Proficiency.

I would agree with you on windage and compensating for extended ranges, except that the Sniper skill doesn't really have anything to do with long-range shooting. It just makes you a better shot with a rifle.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Tyciol wrote:There's two ways to interpret it.

Long range rifle 'firing' and 'marksmanship'.
Long range 'rifle firing' and 'marksmanship'.

The first is yours, the second is mine. Since it can be used with Archery and Throwing Spears, mine must be correct. I don't see why it's such a stretch. A real agent wouldn't limit himself to a simple weapon. Quite honestly I could see the sniping skill being used with blow darts.

As for the second point of discontent, which is whether or not it has any prerequisites, it doesn't. It's a general espionage skill (and not any type of sharpshooting) because it is the ability to stay calm, focus in on the target, and thus have a better likelyhood of hitting him. Since espionage features other feats of vertsatile dexturity and mind control such as escape artistry, pickpocketing, and I believe in later books, interrogation. Having a weapon proficiency definately helps though, a sniper without one isn't as good as someone with one and without sniper making an aimed shot.

Let's look at both of our interpretations and see if one is more logical than the other:

Mine= the skill is called "Sniper" and it helps on aimed shots from rifles only. You cannot take this skill unless you are already proficient with rifles.

Yours= The skill called "Sniper" is an uber-skill that applies to rifles, slingshots, blowguns, spears, squirt guns, and any other missile weapon. There is no prerequisite for the skill; you can become a Sniper with any weapon regardless of whether you have ever fired one before or not.

I (of course) tend to think my take makes a whole lot more sense.
Especially since the skill wouldn't do you any good without the right WP.
Without the WP you can't make aimed shots, and that's the only type of shot that Sniper helps with.
For that matter, I don't think you can make an aimed shot with a bow or thrown weapon...

Ah, but I think Sniper CAN be used with more than one weopon type, if you know how to use the weopon... rifles, bows, blow-guns, sling-shots or whatever... remember, history is full of people who would have had the "Sniper" skill, before the advent of fire-arms.

Vrykolas2k wrote:Ah, but I think Sniper CAN be used with more than one weopon type, if you know how to use the weopon... rifles, bows, blow-guns, sling-shots or whatever... remember, history is full of people who would have had the "Sniper" skill, before the advent of fire-arms.

Not by Rifts rules.
Since the skill only gives bonuses to Aimed shots, and you cannot make Aimed shots with anything other than modern weapons, you couldn't have a sling-shot sniper.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Ah, but I think Sniper CAN be used with more than one weopon type, if you know how to use the weopon... rifles, bows, blow-guns, sling-shots or whatever... remember, history is full of people who would have had the "Sniper" skill, before the advent of fire-arms.

Not by Rifts rules.
Since the skill only gives bonuses to Aimed shots, and you cannot make Aimed shots with anything other than modern weapons, you couldn't have a sling-shot sniper.

Kinda like Vagabonds can't have hand to hand, eh?

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Ah, but I think Sniper CAN be used with more than one weopon type, if you know how to use the weopon... rifles, bows, blow-guns, sling-shots or whatever... remember, history is full of people who would have had the "Sniper" skill, before the advent of fire-arms.

Not by Rifts rules.
Since the skill only gives bonuses to Aimed shots, and you cannot make Aimed shots with anything other than modern weapons, you couldn't have a sling-shot sniper.

Kinda like Vagabonds can't have hand to hand, eh?

Why bring that up here?
It doesn't have anything to do with the topic.

Vrykolas2k wrote:Kinda like Vagabonds can't have hand to hand, eh?

No.

Tyciol wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Not by Rifts rules.
Since the skill only gives bonuses to Aimed shots, and you cannot make Aimed shots with anything other than modern weapons, you couldn't have a sling-shot sniper.

There would be no point of referencing Sniper as working with Archery or Spearthrowing if it didn't add to them, so obviously you can make aimed shots, they're just normal strike rolls. It's not like aimed shots all have universal bonuses anyway, revolvers start at +4. Are you going to say we can't make called shots with bows now, because those are for modern WP only? Palladium Fantasy's longbowmen and I believe the T-Archer in Splynn are able to make those. In fact they may even reference aimed... I will next post I guess...

1. Quote the passages, from Rifts, that make references to Sniper working with Archery or Spearthrowing.
2. You don't need to make an aimed shot to make a called shot.

This may not help this topic but if anyone has ever gone deer hunting with a bow, or know someone who has, then you'll know that sniping with a bow is very very possible. In fact it's just about the only way to get a deer with a bow! In order to guarantee that you kill a deer with an arrow requires a specific shot just behind the deers forlegs at a spot about the size of a saucer. This shot requires the deer to be broadside of the shooter, and preferably standing stock still. Experianced hunters are well skilled through practice to wait for this shot, while not making a sound and remaining perfectly still. Deer are notorious for having a very good sense of smell, good hearing, and keen vision able to notice any unnatural movement. Plus they spook and run real real easy.

Now that's real life. As for the game, sniping with bows should be possible to do in Rifts as the skill is available to characters that could easily come to that setting from Palladium. Also you can combine sharpshooting with bows, slings, and crossbows. And I personally view the sharpshooting skill as the sniper skill on steroids.
Just my two cents!

Tyciol wrote:Rifts Conversion Book Pg 12
"However, an aimed shot can also be a called shot."
"A called shot is an aimed shot that indicates the shooter is aiming for a specific target area within a larger target..."
"An aimed, called shot is necessary to strike the tiny bull's eye of a target..."

Though I know it says this in the book, it isn't very practicle if yu think about it...

Most attacks should be able to make a called shot. Consider this...

Rolling a natural 20 to dodge allows a character to dodge what would normally be considered impossible, but that's the luck of a natural 20.

Thus, doesn't it make more sense to allow a person on horseback firing a rifle one handed at a small target to hit the target if he indeed rolls a natural 20? Of course, by going with the strict language used int he book, nothing but aimed shots could even have a chance (kind of boring, eh?).

Tyciol wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:1. Quote the passages, from Rifts, that make references to Sniper working with Archery or Spearthrowing.

Spirit West
Pg 64 Column 2 under OCC Related Skills:
Espionage: Any (sniper is with bow and arrow or spear).
Pg 67 Column 1:
Espionage: Any (sniper would be with bow and arrow or spear)
Pg 69 Column 1:
Espionage: Any (sniper is with bow and arrow or spear).

The reason they're listed under these OCCs is that they are more likely to use the more natural bow and arrow or spear, as opposed to the warrior OCCs, who may also use old fashioned (pre high tech) rifles with it too.

Isn't Spirit West the same book that thought you could generate 2d6 MD of force by pulling a bowstring?
I see those references as being evidence that the writer didn't know what he was doing, not as evidence that the Rifts Sniper skill can be used with bows.

Splynn Dimensional Market Pgs 108-111, the Tattooed Archer OCC.

- Has the sniper skill despite the only guaranteed WP selected being Archery, and the others being Ancient WP.
- While exclusive to the T-archer, there is Sharpshooter: Archery, along with an 'Aimed' shot, similar to the Longbowman in Palladium Fantasy. This somewhat messes with the idea that they're so entirely separate from modern WP.
- "The bonuses from W.P. Archery, Targeting and Sniper skills are all cumulative."

Okay, that is actually interesting.
I'll concede that characters with the WP Sharpshooting: Bow & Arrow skill can make Aimed Shots with their bows.

Tyciol wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:2. You don't need to make an aimed shot to make a called shot.

Rifts Conversion Book Pg 12
"However, an aimed shot can also be a called shot."
"A called shot is an aimed shot that indicates the shooter is aiming for a specific target area within a larger target..."
"An aimed, called shot is necessary to strike the tiny bull's eye of a target..."

Sourcebook 1, p. 7:
"Pluses or minuses may apply to the called shot depending on whether the attack is an aimed, burst, or wild shot and depending on the size and/or protection of the target."

GMG, p.39:
"Anybody can attempt an aimed or "Called Shot", even with a burst."

Which initially makes no sense because there is no previous mention of an "aimed burst".
But that is clarified later on the same page, under "Burst":

"Bonus: +1 to strike on any 'aimed' burst"

KS seems to be using the term "Aimed Burst" only to distinguish it from a wild burst. Or just to mess with our heads.

Tyciol wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Isn't Spirit West the same book that thought you could generate 2d6 MD of force by pulling a bowstring?
I see those references as being evidence that the writer didn't know what he was doing, not as evidence that the Rifts Sniper skill can be used with bows.

You're probably referring to the technological ones since pretty much any magic weapon inflicts MD, and the only one I can even see doubting is the NA-SW4 M.D.C. Bow. The others use vibro-arrowheads or explosives.

The MDC bow has a string pull of about 1000 pounds. I'm no physicist, but that's a force. It's designed for use by those with supernatural strength, to actually fire a shot with it, you need a supernatural PS of 18, or a normal PS of 35. Even then, it's only due to a complex pulley system that amplifies your pull, that you're even able to rooster it back. Honestly I bet these things have the shot of a rail gun to them.

Laser Bow.
Really, don't get me started.

Again, you seem to have the problem of calling something that occurs regularly and purposefully several times throughout a book a mistake. This guy edited HU2 and edits every Rifter, he's credible enough. Wayne also posts around here... I suppose we could simply ask.

I don't find him credible, and I wouldn't trust his response.

Tyciol wrote:Splynn Dimensional Market Pgs 108-111, the Tattooed Archer OCC.

- Has the sniper skill despite the only guaranteed WP selected being Archery, and the others being Ancient WP.
- While exclusive to the T-archer, there is Sharpshooter: Archery, along with an 'Aimed' shot, similar to the Longbowman in Palladium Fantasy. This somewhat messes with the idea that they're so entirely separate from modern WP.
- "The bonuses from W.P. Archery, Targeting and Sniper skills are all cumulative."

Killer Cyborg wrote:Okay, that is actually interesting.
I'll concede that characters with the WP Sharpshooting: Bow & Arrow skill can make Aimed Shots with their bows.

The note that WP Archery, Targeting and Sniper stacked was separate from WP Sharpshooting, and just explaining that it makes them very good.

The 'Sharpshooter's "Aimed" Shot' says "Aimed shots only. No bonuses for shooting wild"

The 'Sharpshooter's "Called Shot" also says "Aimed shots only."

Both statements imply that normal archery makes aimed shots. Basically, the normal roll to strike is an aimed shot. You're really really tugging at semantics here KC. You might swing most weapons, but you can't honestly tell me that you don't aim a bow.[/quote]

You do technically aim a bow, in the sense that you don't just close your eyes and shoot at random into the air.
But that isn't an "Aimed shot".

By your logic, you can make an Aimed Shot with ANY attack; punch, kick, paper airplane... Which would also, by your logic, mean that the Sniper skill would count with pretty much every attack, melee or ranged.

I just don't accept that this was the intent of the skill.

Tyciol wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:2. You don't need to make an aimed shot to make a called shot.

Tyciol wrote:Rifts Conversion Book Pg 12
"However, an aimed shot can also be a called shot."
"A called shot is an aimed shot that indicates the shooter is aiming for a specific target area within a larger target..."
"An aimed, called shot is necessary to strike the tiny bull's eye of a target..."

Killer Cyborg wrote:Sourcebook 1, p. 7:"Pluses or minuses may apply to the called shot depending on whether the attack is an aimed, burst, or wild shot and depending on the size and/or protection of the target."

True, but since what we're discussing is WP Archery, Bursts are out of the question. Wild shots do happen, like if you dodge, roll, and come up shooting with your bow. All in all, this doesn't really mess with the idea that being able to do a called shot implies that you can make an aimed called shot.

Except that it proves that making an aimed shot isn't a requirement for making a called shot...

I will agree with you that these rules are somewhat hazy. I think what he is referring to in 'Aimed Burst' is a burst focused on a single target, as opposed to strafing a bunch of targets, or laying in a burst as you dive for cover or run away.

Makes sense

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Ah, but I think Sniper CAN be used with more than one weopon type, if you know how to use the weopon... rifles, bows, blow-guns, sling-shots or whatever... remember, history is full of people who would have had the "Sniper" skill, before the advent of fire-arms.

Not by Rifts rules.
Since the skill only gives bonuses to Aimed shots, and you cannot make Aimed shots with anything other than modern weapons, you couldn't have a sling-shot sniper.

Kinda like Vagabonds can't have hand to hand, eh?

Why bring that up here?
It doesn't have anything to do with the topic.

Because it's the same ball-park... I think they can have H-t-H skills, just as I think Sniper can be applied to more than one type of ranged combat. The rules don't specifically say it's for "guns" only. Hell, the Tri-Wolf RCC {which I play often} from Mindwerks has Sniper, and they don't even SHOOT anything {unless, I suppose, they take the Telekinetic Acceleration Attack physical psi-power...}!

Nagisawa Takumi wrote:After this post, I am going to ignore this thread. As in REAL LIFE, not Palladium, Sniping is done with a RIFLE from a secluded area and is done at near maximum range.

Not always true. Sniping can be done from anyplace at any range. The only prerequisits would be that the target didn't know the shot was coming. Even if the shot was a measily 20 feet away.

Which can't be done with a simple bow or thrown weapon. Crossbows, Okay, no complaints, but not anything muscle powered.

Huh...never gone bow hunt'n for deer huh?? Have ya ever even shot a bow?? If not ya got no clue about "real life" when it comes to bows. I'd also be curious as to your presumed experiance with sniping anything for that matter.

The skills of sniping: camouflage, breath control, adjusting for wind, hand and eye coordination, etc. are all applicable to making aimed shots with any hand held weapon more accurate. This is why I let players apply sniper to other WP skills besides energy rifle. I am fine with this being a house rule in my campaign, I go by logic more often than by not, and this falls into that category. I do require players to have the appropriate WP skill though.

Nagisawa Takumi wrote:After this post, I am going to ignore this thread. As in REAL LIFE, not Palladium, Sniping is done with a RIFLE from a secluded area and is done at near maximum range.

Which can't be done with a simple bow or thrown weapon. Crossbows, Okay, no complaints, but not anything muscle powered.

No offense, but... I think you're on crack. Tell the English knights who got pinned through the legs to their horses by my Welsh ancestors that they weren't being "sniped".

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Ah, but I think Sniper CAN be used with more than one weopon type, if you know how to use the weopon... rifles, bows, blow-guns, sling-shots or whatever... remember, history is full of people who would have had the "Sniper" skill, before the advent of fire-arms.

Not by Rifts rules.
Since the skill only gives bonuses to Aimed shots, and you cannot make Aimed shots with anything other than modern weapons, you couldn't have a sling-shot sniper.

Kinda like Vagabonds can't have hand to hand, eh?

Why bring that up here?
It doesn't have anything to do with the topic.

Because it's the same ball-park... I think they can have H-t-H skills, just as I think Sniper can be applied to more than one type of ranged combat. The rules don't specifically say it's for "guns" only. Hell, the Tri-Wolf RCC {which I play often} from Mindwerks has Sniper, and they don't even SHOOT anything {unless, I suppose, they take the Telekinetic Acceleration Attack physical psi-power...}!

1. Go over to the Vagabond HTH thread and look what side I'm on. Look what side Tyciol is on.
2. The rules specifically say "This skill represents special training in long range rifle firing and marksmanship. Only rifles that can be made to fire a single round or blast can be used for sniping (no automatic/multi-firing rifles). Adds a bonus of +2 to strike on aimed shot."
You really don't think that means "guns only?"
You buy the idea that the one word of "marksmanship" somehow overrides the rest of the skill description? You doubt that the skill is supposed to be for rifles only? Why does it specify "Only rifles that can be made to fire a single round"? Why not "Weapons"? You think you can "snipe" with an auto-firing pistol?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Ah, but I think Sniper CAN be used with more than one weopon type, if you know how to use the weopon... rifles, bows, blow-guns, sling-shots or whatever... remember, history is full of people who would have had the "Sniper" skill, before the advent of fire-arms.

Not by Rifts rules.
Since the skill only gives bonuses to Aimed shots, and you cannot make Aimed shots with anything other than modern weapons, you couldn't have a sling-shot sniper.

Kinda like Vagabonds can't have hand to hand, eh?

Why bring that up here?
It doesn't have anything to do with the topic.

Because it's the same ball-park... I think they can have H-t-H skills, just as I think Sniper can be applied to more than one type of ranged combat. The rules don't specifically say it's for "guns" only. Hell, the Tri-Wolf RCC {which I play often} from Mindwerks has Sniper, and they don't even SHOOT anything {unless, I suppose, they take the Telekinetic Acceleration Attack physical psi-power...}!

1. Go over to the Vagabond HTH thread and look what side I'm on. Look what side Tyciol is on.
2. The rules specifically say "This skill represents special training in long range rifle firing and marksmanship. Only rifles that can be made to fire a single round or blast can be used for sniping (no automatic/multi-firing rifles). Adds a bonus of +2 to strike on aimed shot."
You really don't think that means "guns only?"
You buy the idea that the one word of "marksmanship" somehow overrides the rest of the skill description? You doubt that the skill is supposed to be for rifles only? Why does it specify "Only rifles that can be made to fire a single round"? Why not "Weapons"? You think you can "snipe" with an auto-firing pistol?

So why does the Tri-Wolf for instance have it? It's for leap attacks... which doesn't fit with the definition you provide.
I guess, in this topic, we have to disagree.

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Nagisawa Takumi wrote:After this post, I am going to ignore this thread. As in REAL LIFE, not Palladium, Sniping is done with a RIFLE from a secluded area and is done at near maximum range.

Which can't be done with a simple bow or thrown weapon. Crossbows, Okay, no complaints, but not anything muscle powered.

No offense, but... I think you're on crack. Tell the English knights who got pinned through the legs to their horses by my Welsh ancestors that they weren't being "sniped".

1. In REAL LIFE, we can't talk to guys who have been dead for that long.
2. It seems like a lot of people on your side of the argument equate "being shot" to being sniped. There is a difference.
3. By dictionary definition, a sniper is anybody who fired from a concealed postition. It does not specify what type of weapon is used, so by this definition you could chuck a rock or fire a squirt gun from behind a bush and be accurately called a sniper.
Is this what Palladium is going by?
No.
The Sniper skill is an Espionage skill.
This means that it is something not availible to most people.
While TemporalMage's bowhunting example is an example of sniping under the dictionary definition, it is NOT under Palladium's definition.
Otherwise, the Sniping skill would be found under Wilderness skills or other places besides just Espionage.

Vrykolas2k wrote:No offense, but... I think you're on crack. Tell the English knights who got pinned through the legs to their horses by my Welsh ancestors that they weren't being "sniped".

They were being shot.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:No offense, but... I think you're on crack. Tell the English knights who got pinned through the legs to their horses by my Welsh ancestors that they weren't being "sniped".

They were being shot.

From concealed positions...

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:No offense, but... I think you're on crack. Tell the English knights who got pinned through the legs to their horses by my Welsh ancestors that they weren't being "sniped".

They were being shot.

From concealed positions...

Really? given the English taste for massed archery fire, as well as the fact that the Welsh longbow does not have that great a range when used with a flat trajectory (ever tried the precision shooting implied by your post while shooting in a bell curve?), I'm not sure it was sniping as in, "precision shot from a concealed position).

As for me, I allow use of "sniping" with a variety of ranged weapons, but do require the character to have the proper WP, as the intensive training needed to snipe would necessary entail mastering the weapon itself too.

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:No offense, but... I think you're on crack. Tell the English knights who got pinned through the legs to their horses by my Welsh ancestors that they weren't being "sniped".

They were being shot.

From concealed positions...

So?
They still were not snipers.

It is a term only used for firearms.

Sniper Word Origin

The snipe was a bird prized for its delicacy in medieval England. However, hunters had a tough time catching the bird because of its alertness and speed. As firearms improved, hunters found it easier to shoot the birds, but only by hiding and waiting for the snipe to come within range. Soon, hunters who were particularly adept at catching the bird became known as snipers. Sniper dates from 1824 and the verb from 1782

Svartalf wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:No offense, but... I think you're on crack. Tell the English knights who got pinned through the legs to their horses by my Welsh ancestors that they weren't being "sniped".

They were being shot.

From concealed positions...

Really? given the English taste for massed archery fire, as well as the fact that the Welsh longbow does not have that great a range when used with a flat trajectory (ever tried the precision shooting implied by your post while shooting in a bell curve?), I'm not sure it was sniping as in, "precision shot from a concealed position).

As for me, I allow use of "sniping" with a variety of ranged weapons, but do require the character to have the proper WP, as the intensive training needed to snipe would necessary entail mastering the weapon itself too.

The English and the Welsh are two different peoples thank you... the Welsh held off the English for a long time by using such methods... and since they started training with their bows at young ages, I'd say they had it pretty much mastered.

Vrykolas2k wrote:The English and the Welsh are two different peoples thank you... the Welsh held off the English for a long time by using such methods... and since they started training with their bows at young ages, I'd say they had it pretty much mastered.

Then they were conquered and went into the English army where the world called their weapon the English Longbow.