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I think a lot of GMs are intimidated with trying to come up with challenging situations for powerful characters. Instead of one vampire, now you need 4 or 5, the numbers are different, and the strategies are as well. Instead of the monster just simply hacking at the player in a mindless fashion, the monster must now be smarter, it has to hit and run. It has to team up with its buddies and grapple the super player to the ground and feast on his organs while he is stuck prone.... sorry... getting a little graphic there.

Anyway, it is a lot tougher on the GM to have a more powerful group. More thought is required, more strategy, tougher and more numerous monsters... its not like the GM is getting paid for all that extra work. Personally, I don't mind letting the players have powerful characters for a couple of reasons. First off, the player tends to really like his new uber-character and is therefore more involved in the game. Second, while it is more work, it pushes me as a GM to be more creative. And finally, I don't feel guilty as a GM killing off a decked out cyborg, where I do feel like a bully killing some little SDC weasel.

I have been playing RPGs since the mid to late 70's and have played and DM'd all kinds of games. Games where you worked your butt off for every last copper piece and games where magic and power were handed out like candy. And the one thing that is always constant, you couldn't judge the quality by the power level. The most important element to any game is first and foremost the creativity and ability of the GM, without a good GM, the game is dead in the water. Close behind is the ability level and involvement of the players, that is what inspires the GM and makes it fun for him to create a world for the party to interact with. A distant third is the game with its rules, a good setting is fine, but without the best players and GM, it is doomed to mediocrity. When you find a good group with a good GM, you are going to have a good game, whether it is D&D or Rifts or whatever.

In all that time, it has never ceased to amaze me how angry some players get when they think someone else has a more powerful character than themself. They rage on about munchkin this and that, and monty haul GMs. Character envy is very real and to me, very amusing. How on earth does someone else's character have any bearing on another person's character or game? I am like you, I just don't see why more powerful games are so threatening to some people.

Aegis wrote:Aegis, rants about this "power creep" "munchkin" stuff finally

You want to hear me talk about Power Creep, or do you want me to talk about Munchkins?

Hell... its Saturday night, go for broke...

Munchkin is power gaming corrupted.

I have no problem with players who have powerful characters as long as that power is earned through playing the game. Munchkins want it all at the start.
You want a Neo-Human great. But if you want a Neo-Human with magic tattoos powers of a Cosmo Knight who pilots a Glitterboy dual wields ATL-7's and has a half a dozen greatest rune weapons he better have earned each and every one.

I would have to agree that munchkinism is a state of mind. It's just wanting the biggest best stuff to have the best character and show off.

Someone in my current game chose to play a Crazy Burster (Don't know if it's allowed but I allowed it... ) He thought he was the strongest and best in the group. Until a simple quick roll monster beat the crap out of him. No wait... even still he still thought he was the best, and just went on laughing and everything because he had more abilities and stuff than the other players. Well anyways, at this rate he'll die in the next session

Or the guy who took the glitterboy because he thought it was the biggest baddest thing out there. Well the party's Great Horned Dragon Hatchling decided to point out something very vital to him. That inside he's still a squishy. So he picked him up... flew up and smashed him into the ground... the crash killed the pilot.

There's always a simple hole around something. Sure that character might have all of the equipment in the world and be made of pure MDC with resistances to everything. But them up against a camp of low tech bandits with Wilk's Laser pistols. Have like 20 of them swarm him. Watch how quickly he goes down.

Ok I just got totally off topic... but the point I was trying to make was. I don't care what kind of a character someone picks. High powered... low powered... If I can't find anything that can match up to you... I'll make one myself
I'm the GM and this is MY world. I won't boss you around, but you'll never be the strongest thing in it.... I am ^_^

Munchkins come in all shapes and sizes...

If you don't like it...don't play with them...it you're a GM and you don't like it...tell them no.

The basic problem I've always had with Rifts is that there was a general power creep as time when on...

I have always believed in the concept of the one shot kill...Rifts doesn't account for that chance...

On Munchkins:

First, let's look at the term.
A Munchkin is, outside of role-playing terminology, a midget/dwarf/halfling type person from the magical land of Oz. When I first encountered a person who used the term to describe a something in Rifts (Glitterboys), I asked what he meant. He said "stupidly powerful". I asked "Why does the word 'Munchkin' mean 'stupidly powerful'? The lollipop guild didn't have much of a militia."
He said "I guess because it's the sort of thing that a munchkin would play if he gamed."
Not very helpful.
I generally reject any slang term that I don't understand. Take "Tubular" for example (not popular now, but it was in the 80's)... my reaction was "Yeah, 'cylindrical'... whatever. Moron."
I had about the same reaction to people using the word "Munchkin", for the same reason: I didn't get why they used that particular word.
But I eventually worked it out.

What is a "Munchkin" gamer?
A guy who likes big freakin' guns
Why's he so hung up on big freakin' guns?
Because he's overcompensating for some shortcoming of his own.
He's a "munchkin".

Calling a gamer a Munchkin isn't very nice.
It's not supposed to be; it's a derogatory term.

The term has evolved a bit since its creation, but it basically means the same thing (although people use incorrectly a LOT).

A true, 100% Munchkin gamer is a person who is, in short, a loser.
The reason that they role-play isn't that they want a challenge. It's not that they like to come up with strategies, or wonder what it would be like to be in another person's shoes, or the other reasons that a lot of people play.
Munchkins game because then they can pretend that they are bigger than they are.
Now don't get me wrong; we all get a kick out of pretending we're cooler and more powerful than we are. There's nothing really wrong with that.
But Munchkins take it to a bad place.
They don't want to be heroes, or even anti-heroes. That's not their fantasy.
They want to be bullies. Sometimes they enjoy the fantasy of being a "bully for good", sometimes they enjoy the fantasy of being a "bully for evil", but they are always bullies (or they get really upset).
Basically, they role-play so that they can pick on NPCs (or other player characters) in order to feel good about themselves.
They beat up on imaginary people in order to meet their own ego need.

Here's how you can identify a Munchkin in the wild:
1. He always has to be the BEST at something (preferably everything). Combat in particular, but depending on the game they may go with something else; a Cyberpunk 2020 munchkin might play a Netrunner, for example, but only if he's more powerful than any other Netrunner (or, for that matter, any AI).
2. He has no sense of proportion. He doesn't understand that power comes at a price and wants everything for free. When playing GURPS, he will min-max to an insane degree an argue with the GM about it "So I have a 20 point flaw of 'hang-nail'.. So? It's legit!". He will go online and brag about his TW Ninja Glitterboy armor (with Synchro-Boom-Gun) that he made, then say "It's reasonable! The 8000 MDC is offset by the fact that that you get a -1 penalty to dodge in the rain..."
3. He's lazy. He doesn't want to work for power, he just wants to have it and use it like a club on anybody who gets in his way. He wants everything for nothing and he wants every victory to be effortless, so that he can brag about how tough he is "Pfft! Splyncrith is Nothing! I took him out in one hit!" Basically, he doesn't want to play a role-playing game, he just wants to jerk off to a fantasy of power. In games, you can lose.
4. He Whines. If the GM stands up to him, he pitches a fit. He can't stand to lose. If he can't get a super-rare, super-powerful piece of equipment that he character shouldn't have even heard about, much less own, he pitches a fit. If you call him a Munchkin, he pitches a fit.
5. He doesn't usually know that he's a Munchkin. He's in denial about it. He'll claim that he's a Power-Gamer and that there's nothing wrong with that. He's lying.
The difference between Power Gaming and Munchkinism is this:
-A power gamer will want to play a Cosmo-Knight in a party of Cosmo-knights (or like characters) and go up against equally powerful foes.
-A Munchkin will want to play a Cosmo-Knight (usually with extra powers and/or special gear) in a party of characters from the Main Rifts book (Or BtS...) and go up against Coalition Grunts or Skelebots. Or Floopers. Anything that isn't an actual threat.

Aegis wrote:I know its hard to beleave but some people dont actually want to play a normal person, or a person who relies on the energy rifle and armor. Some people like to have an interesting character who they can build up the way they would like to. ANd you know what there are many who can play that character even better than the *gasp* normal characters.

The reason why it ticks people off is because it goes against the original feel of the game.
What you're missing is this: A "normal person" in Rifts isn't a CS Grunt, it isn't a Headhunter, it isn't an Operator, it isn't a City Rat, and it isn't a Rogue Scholar. None of those people are normal; they are the stuff of legends. They are demi-gods who walk among men and who do what they please.

The closest thing to an "ordinary person" OCC in Rifts is the Vagabond OCC, and even that is a bit above average.

If you want a really, really powerful character, play a SAMAS. Play a Glitterboy. Play a Mind Melter. Play a Ley Line Walker. Play a Juicer. Play a Crazy. Play a Borg. Or even a Hatchling Dragon.
They aren't just demi-gods among men, they are the GODS themselves.

You probably don't know what I'm talking about, so I'll let you think on it a bit.

Sir Darom wrote:Yes and no, Tyciol.

See, there are plenty of people who think that even the Glitter Boy is munchkin. Or that certain legal combinations are "munchkin." Or even canon items that are more powerful than what's in RMB+SB1 are evidence of "power creep."

Well... I never really understood the evilness of "power creep". In an evolving hi tech game like Rifts, the tech is bound to evolve and get better. The question is whether the new items are so much superior and easy to get as to make all older tech completely obsolete and undesirable.

I just love phase World, Rifts Japan and South America... (much less CWC, but that's because of poor execution rather than resistance to "power creep")

Then again, there is Munchkin, which is the search of Über Power over and above that provided by natural power creep, often derived through illegal, or rather contrived and improbable abuse of technically legal, combos.

It is characterized (on the GM side) by foes and menaces that the players have no chance of vanquishing (unless they find an achilles heel the GM had not thought of and manage to exploit it before he can think of a plug) without active GM help; in players it manifests in characters that are ridiculously powerful, much more so than the other PCs, and, if the munch has his way, powerful enough to dictate his law even to NPCs in authority.

Svartalf wrote:Well... I never really understood the evilness of "power creep". In an evolving hi tech game like Rifts, the tech is bound to evolve and get better. The question is whether the new items are so much superior and easy to get as to make all older tech completely obsolete and undesirable.

I think the cries of "power creep" are over blown. The toughest character, as far as combat goes, to this day is still the glitterboy from the original book: 770 MDC and he does an obscene amount of damage out to 11,000'. So unless your party is playing adult dragons, you are probably not as powerful as this OCC from the original book when it comes to a stand up fight.

As for playing a glitterboy or other powerful character, a good GM is going to mix things up. If you have a glitterboy, he is going to come up with ways to get you out of your armor, like sending you into the Burbs of ChiTown. Or he is going to find opponents, like vampires, that aren't effected by the boom gun. So while in many situations you will be the obvious "tank" of the group, in others, you are going to have to rely on your party members for help.

Sir Darom wrote:See, there are plenty of people who think that even the Glitter Boy is munchkin. Or that certain legal combinations are "munchkin." Or even canon items that are more powerful than what's in RMB+SB1 are evidence of "power creep."

But they are wrong.

Intersesting... as only the Zebuloid was ever meant to be used as a PC

Tyciol wrote:Wrong, they're powerful, not munchkin. The spaces between your lines were excessive, heck they could all be listed in one line. Do not spam.

Dude two posts with the same thing.
Don't spam.

Tyciol wrote:Angryjack, any spacing I use, using the (quote)(/quote) functions, are to separate my statements from the person I'm replying to. If you'll note, in most of my thoughts, I only use a blank line if my argument drags into multiple paragraphs. Furthermore Doom, I already edited and apologized for the accidental douple post before you even pointed it out, as the time will show

You could have just deleted the second one and edited the first.
I guess that wouldn't increase your post count eh?

Tyciol wrote:Doom, I am unaware of how to delete a post, many times I have tried in the past, and have posted similar amendments. I simply can't locate the delete box in the edit option, it used to be edit/delete. Please tell me how so I can eliminate that nasty thing!

Of course I shall leave my two replies discussing it's lack of need for existance with you to remain.

If your post is the last post you should see a little "x" where the report post button is in someone else's post.
You click it and you will delete your post.

Alright Doom, good info, and it works...

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Tyciol wrote:Angryjack, any spacing I use, using the (quote)(/quote) functions, are to separate my statements from the person I'm replying to. If you'll note, in most of my thoughts, I only use a blank line if my argument drags into multiple paragraphs. Furthermore Doom, I already edited and apologized for the accidental douple post before you even pointed it out, as the time will show

You could have just deleted the second one and edited the first.
I guess that wouldn't increase your post count eh?

Be fair doom... he could not have deleted a post after somebody had written anything after it

Svartalf wrote:Be fair doom... he could not have deleted a post after somebody had written anything after it

I am being fair.
He edited the first post before I posted under his second.

Besides I'm just messing with him so fair doesn't enter into it.

I guess it depends on who's running and who's playing a game.
I've been in games where my fave type of character, the Fallen Cosmo-knight, was the "weakling" {compared to a Demi-God Warlock, a Godling, a Sea Titan, and a Hatchling Fire Dragon}; I've also been in groups where he was the toughest, next to the Glitter Boy or the 'Borg. I guess it depends on how you play, and what the GM allows you to get away with.

RPGMAN wrote:Ok, slightly OT here, but I've seen it referenced before (and actually commented on it myself I think), but what is the big deal about a person's post count? I've figured out that the moderators tend to have really high post counts, but what is the deal other than that?

Essentially : nothing.

A mans post count represents only his ability to type a lot of stuff.

But since a) post count is a way to tell who's got the biggest
b) many geeks (including RPGers) feel they have insufficiencies to comensate.

Post count is an official ranking system, and some will spam to insanity just to be in the top x

Generally it only indicates how long you have been around.
Except for the real spammers.

In reality it's totally meaningless fun.

On Power Creep:

Power Creep is a term used to describe a increase in the overall power level of a game. It's like inflation, only with damage and the ability to take damage. Why is it bad?
-Because the new classes/powers/spells/gear cheapen the old ones by comparison. The prime example is the original Headhunter OCC and the Techno-Warrior OCC in Rifts: Canada. The Techno-Warrior can literally do everything that the original class can do, only better and more. They have every skill of the original class, but with better bonuses. They also get special OCC skills and more bionics. The original OCC is now obsolete.
-Because it screws with the game mechanics, which screws with the gameworld as a whole.
-Because the power level on Rifts Earth started off as mind-blowingly powerful to begin with, and now has just gotten absurd. A Wilk's 320 laser pistol from the main book did 1d6 MD per single shot. That's the same as a LAW Rocket. That's pretty powerful, but wait; it gets better. A Wilk's 320 pistol could fire a full-clip burst for 1d6x7 MD; the equivilant of hitting the target with 7 LAW rockets. And the Wilk's 320 was one of the cheaper, less respected weapons. Now look at the original Vibro-Knives. They did 1d6 MD, the same as a LAW. Vibro-Swords did 2d6 MD, the same as 2 LAWs.
They had swords that were twice as powerful as a LAW ROCKET!
Just sit and think about that for a minute.
Maybe you've never seen a LAW in action. I know I haven't, so let's put things in perspective. A single-engine airplane has 400 SDC. A motorcycle has 100 SDC. A pick-up truck has 450 SDC. A half-ton hauler truck has 550 SDC.
So a single LAW rocket could destroy any of those things in a single hit.
So could a single shot from a Wilk's 320 laser pistol.
Or, technically, a swipe from a vibro-blade.
I have trouble comprehending this kind of damage; it's incredible.
Since the game first came out in 1990, there have been many questions regarding what the repercussions of this kind of damage are. If you shoot a Wilk's 320 at the ground, what exactly happens? Small, but deep hole? Big crater? Or what?
But rather than get into elaborating on the sheer power of the weapons in the main book, Palladium kept cranking out new weapons.
So now, with a lot of original questions unanswered, we have to deal with trying to comprehend the power of swords that can do as much damage as 10 LAW rockets. Pistols that deal 1d4x10 MD per shot; the same as 6 and a half LAWs. After a certain point, and the main book was pushing it, that kind of damage coming from hand weapons ceases to be awe-inspiring and instead becomes incomprehensible.
-Because it is a pointless and never-ending cycle.
Palladium Books is in an arms race with itself. Each book tries to have bigger and badder things in order to compete with the previous stuff, then the original stuff is often upgraded in order to compete with the new stuff. Repeat.
Let's look at Dinosaurs for example.
According to the Main Book, 2nd Printing, a T-Rex would have 1d4x10 MDC, a bite that does 2d6 MD, and claws that do 1d4 (hands) or 2d6 MD (feet). Pretty impressive, really. Much more than a real T-rex would be. For one thing, the original T-Rex would have been an SDC creature. Just making him MDC automatically means that you have a dinosaur that is bulletproof. You could shoot him all day long with armor-piercing .50 cal bullets and it wouldn't hurt him a bit. Furthermore, This guy can eat a cabin cruiser boat in a single bite (or up to 12 motorcycles...). Two bites, and he could eat an entire Jet Airliner (2000 SDC).
Pretty impressive, one would think.
But poor old T-rex was outgunned. People wanted Dinos to pose a threat to their characters and thought that dinos were too weak (even though they already had been beefed up considerably from what their real stats would have been).
So the New West T-Rexes became even more monsterous; hundreds of MDC, etc. etc. etc. I don't have the book, so I don't have their stats.
But I'll bet they don't have to think twice about eating a Jet Airliner in a single bite.
And, of course, characters need bigger and more powerful weapons to deal with these dinos...

People try to justify Power Creep. They make a lot of excuses for it:
Like saying "New technology justifies an increase in power". But it doesn't. In the main book, the very best equipment is all Pre-Rifts stuff, a lot of which is out of the league of current powers to improve upon... they can only reproduce it at best. It's been this way since the Golden Age... several hundred years. Then, within a few years, they figure out how to improve on everything and upgrade it. Possible? Sure. Probable? No.
"but you admit that it's possible..."
Sure, but that's not what Palladium is doing. How can I tell?
They never make mention of new technology, and most of the increases in power aren't logical. For example, take the Wilk's line of pistols.
The 320 from the main book did 1d6 MD.
The 330 does 2d6 MD, already twice the standard amount
The 237 does 3d6 MD, the same as a good laser rifle from the main book!
The explanation?
None, really. Just that people are willing to compromise on range for power. Which is more of a description of why people would want the gun, not what makes it possible to make a gun like that.
Or how you can decrease the range of a laser and increase the power at the same time...

Anyway, the main reason why increasing technology isn't an explanation for Power Creep is because of all the non-tech things that have gotten inexplicably more powerful. Like Dinos, for example. Or like Juicers. Or like the fact that Supernatural PS didn't do Mega-Damage until Conversion Book 1 came out (the same book that says you can get +4 MDC for wrist strengthening exercise ).

This also negates the argument that Power Creep doesn't exist because "different regions have different power levels. The stuff in South America has a different power level, but it doesn't come up to North America".
Things within the same region keep increasing in power over time.

I have a question: where is the challenge in playing a munchkin character?

If you are uber powerful things won't be challenging and thus not fun. Sure the GM could adjust the difficulty so that you are fighting gods and other powerful beings, but wouldn't it just be easier to have a normal character with normal challenges?

RPGMAN wrote:Well, speaking for myself, I like playing powerful characters that still have to deal with non-deific problems. I mean, my Gene Splicer Juicer may be the nearest thing to a combat-godling anyone could ask for, but he's still got to eat, drink, get his e-clips recharged, etc.

I think a LOT of GMs forget about the little mundane stuff like that. I used to regularly soak my players with stuff like that. Amazing how much money it costs for ammo, e-clip recharges, clean water - heck, has anyone besided me figured out how expensive it is to repair a vehicle or power armour? WOW, it's almsot cheaper to buy a new one sometimes.

Then there's all the other little problems that can keep PCs busy - like thieves. I don't care HOW tricky the PCs get with their security, there are professional thieves that are going to saunter right past pretty much everything - hey, that's *their* OCC, right? So, that munchkin PC/player is a problem? Not when his stuff get's snagged by a couple of wandering Temporal Raiders.

BTW, great Power Creep explanation KC! Very well organized and described.

I include all of those mundane things in my campaigns and still don't see how they could even begin to off set the unchallenging nature of a munchkin character.

Aegis wrote:

I have a question: where is the challenge in playing a munchkin character?

If you are uber powerful things won't be challenging and thus not fun. Sure the GM could adjust the difficulty so that you are fighting gods and other powerful beings, but wouldn't it just be easier to have a normal character with normal challenges?

I am going to include someone who wants to play a character with natural mdc *gasp * along with the munchkin comment.

Maybe someone doesnt want to play an normal character. I still cannot see why that is so mind boggling.

Dragons, mages, psychics, bots, borgs, and Dog-Boys (not to mention the myriad of other D-Bee races) don't seem that normal in my book.
Yet they are well balanced.

The problem with MDC human types is that they make normal humans obsolete. They have all of the same benefits, plus are MDC (often with other powers), and usually have NO downside to playing them.
While I don't have much of a problem with powerful individuals (like an imported HU2 style hero), the creation of such powerful races throws the balance of the game off.

There are more than enough challenges in the different world and dimension books to challenge any book legal character (which would preclude a munchkin since I havent made one nor have any of my players made any of them).

I agree.
If the only powers a character has are straight-forward, then I don't consider the character to be that munchy.
I've let players import invulnerable, super strong Super Heroes before and it didn't really matter much because I could taylor make the adventure to fit the character. Look at Superman comic books, for example (especially Golden Age). He was always pretty much undefeatable in a straight-up fight, but a lot of the time it took most of the issue to get to the fight. The rest of the time Supes spent just tracking the bad guys down.

The problem is that the more powerful the characters are (and I'm not talking about MDC humans), the more stuff there is to keep track of.
The GM has a tougher and tougher time playing the NPCs to their full ability, because the Villians would be 100% familiar with their own capabilities and be able to make instant decisions, where a GM running a high-powered game has way too much to keep track of. One reason I quit playing really high-powered characters is because they almost invariably had a power or ability that threw the entire adventure off track. The adventure either ended up being too easy, or the GM had to constantly come up with excuses why poweres didn't work. Either way, it got boring.

As for 'power creep' one would have to be blind to not see things have gotten more powerful as the books went on. My major gripe about all of this is that certain posters like to make it a point to blame it all on certain persons, IE CJ Carella. But these people seem to overlook books like Atlantis where things are hugely powerful, more so than in any of the other world books. One argument I have heard is that its ok that everything is so powerful there since they are ancient and things eventually got that powerful.

Okay, first of all pull out your Atlantis book.
Atlantis WAS way more powerful than anything else at the time, because it was supposed to be. The Splugorth and their minions are supposed to be ultra-powerful races with the best gear on the planet.
But look at their gear today.
-The TW Swords in FoM stack up extremely well against the Atlantean Greatest Rune Weapons, but they're one heck of a lot cheaper and more easily availible.
-The Kittani energy weapons were basically 1d6 better than the stuff in North America. The K-4 Pulse Rifle was the same as the Wilk's 457 Pulse Rifle, only the K-4 has a +6 MD advantage. The KEP Energy Pistol did 5d6 MD on a single shot, way more than any other pistol of the day. Compare it to the NG-45LP. The 45LP does the same damage, holds about about as much ammo, and has a 1000' advantage in range.
The Kittani Body Armor had 85 MDC, 5 more than the standard Heavy Deadboy of the day.... Now it's less effective than the new standard among CS troops.
Basically, the Kittani gear that was supposed to be the best tech availible to an immortal and extremely powerful race (that had dozens if not hundreds of slave races working under it to build weaponry) is now sub-standard gear.
Overall, Atlantis has substandard gear.
This doesn't work very well with the description that the Atlantis book gives of the place.

That is ok but then they will make snide comments about the SA books were there are groups like the megaversal legion who were outfitted by the most technologically advanced race in the MEGAverse, yes according to the book the megaverse. But that power level which isnt any greater than stuff in Atlantis , is considered things like the"Carella Effect". To me that is very hypocritical.

To me as well.
I don't have a problem with pockets of super-high technology. I don't even really consider that Power Creep, because it doesn't raise the bar for an entire area.

So I guess what I am saying is that I have seen the power levels go up in books but I am one of the people who havent been bothered by it. I also will stick up for the work that Carella did as I enjoyed the flavor of his writtings and his concepts, most powerful things had some drawbacks to them (example the megaversal legions equipment would be hunted down and retrieved even if player characters got a hold of it, anti monster become a forever transformed monstrous looking being (sacrifices his humanity)

I like CJ's work as well, but his stuff is often WAY too powerful if you look at it.
Look at Naruni Weapons, for example.
Most people tone them down, due to a sense of balance, the belief that there was some kind of mistake, or due to a misunderstanding of the rules, but it's absurdly powerful.
Take the NE-4 Plasma Cartridge Pistol.
It does 1d4x10 MD on a single shot, and has ROF: Standard.
Technically, this means that it can fire a half-clip burst for 1d4x30 MDC, or a full-clip burst for 1d4x70 MDC.
That's 70-280 MDC.
Almost half a Glitterboy.
That's 3-14 Jet Airliners.
That's the force of roughly 50 LAW Rockets.
From a pistol.

But for all that, I do like a LOT of CJ's work and I don't even consider it to be the biggest part of Power Creep. Just a few drops in the bucket.

Killer Cyborg wrote:The problem with MDC human types is that they make normal humans obsolete. They have all of the same benefits, plus are MDC (often with other powers), and usually have NO downside to playing them.
While I don't have much of a problem with powerful individuals (like an imported HU2 style hero), the creation of such powerful races throws the balance of the game off.

This is an excellent point. That is why I make them obvious DBees in my campaign. They can't have it both ways, DBee powers and human appearance, I leave that for the psychics and mages. But you're right, if they look human but are uber powerful, there is no downside. If they are not allowed in CS areas, if they are immediately drawing attention, and if they have to deal with prejudice because they are obvious DBees it goes a little ways towards balancing the character. I think there is an SDC fraternity, and you have to keep high powered DBees out of it.

In regards to Power Creep, I think I agree in general with everything here except on a couple of points.
1) One of the major problems KC mentions is that MDC weapons are overly powerful to begin with, (which I agree with) this really has nothing to do with power creep as it has with inadequacies with the MDC system.
2) To make combat realistic, a mini-missile or a heavy energy weapon should be able to take someone out in one or two shots (really should make mincemeat out of a guy in armor, these weapons should be for taking out tanks and fortified positions), as should a sniper rifle. CJ was trying to fix some of these problems with his weapons but simply making the weapons do more damage dosen't really work.
3) Originally a normal energy weapon such as a laser rifle could fire a long burst doing 3d6x5. That was good, an assault rifle should be able to take out a grunt by using half the clip. When KS introduced his "quick and dirty" rules a normal gun could only do a "double tap" of 3d6x2 so all the weapons that had equally high damages in one shot suddenly seemed overly powerful. Why use a 6d6 plasma rifle which only has 6 shots when you could use a laser pulse rifle that does 1d6x10 (from SB1) and has a lond eclip? Then the next book introduces a plasma gun that does 2d4x10 to make ammends but now a SAMAS has a crap gun.
4) Whats the point of this rant z0b?
The game was flawed to begin with, MDC is too powerful and the damages of guns is out of whack. PA and Robot weapons should do a lot more damage than an infantry rifle (SAMAS 1d4x10, NG Ion Rifle 1d4x10) and the burst rules are also stupid, in fact most of the ranged combat rules are stupid. The rules for modern combat with modern firearms are much better because they are based on actual weapons. If Rifts had stuck to that idea and kept AR and PV and only had a few energy weapons and rail guns that were mainly for Robots and PAs then a lot of this would have been avoided.

Aegis wrote: When I was chatting about a natural mdc being I wasnt talking about human ones like the sea titan (which I have never even thought about making one). I havent even had a character want to make one, an undead slayer is the closest they have come. When I say mdc creature I am thinking mostly about the classes like the anti monster (which is probably my favorite since he sacrifices his human looks and humanity to become a slayer of demons and evil. Other monstrous dbees are included, I guess the human mdc beings (other than HU, HU2 beings which are rare) hasnt really came up in my campaigns.

I have no real problem with Anti-Monsters.
They're a good example of a balanced character in a lot of ways. Like the Borg they give up their humanity in order to gain power, and this is balanced. Which means it's not Munchkin, in spite of what some people say.

z0b wrote:In regards to Power Creep, I think I agree in general with everything here except on a couple of points.
1) One of the major problems KC mentions is that MDC weapons are overly powerful to begin with, (which I agree with) this really has nothing to do with power creep as it has with inadequacies with the MDC system.
2) To make combat realistic, a mini-missile or a heavy energy weapon should be able to take someone out in one or two shots (really should make mincemeat out of a guy in armor, these weapons should be for taking out tanks and fortified positions), as should a sniper rifle. CJ was trying to fix some of these problems with his weapons but simply making the weapons do more damage dosen't really work.
3) Originally a normal energy weapon such as a laser rifle could fire a long burst doing 3d6x5. That was good, an assault rifle should be able to take out a grunt by using half the clip. When KS introduced his "quick and dirty" rules a normal gun could only do a "double tap" of 3d6x2 so all the weapons that had equally high damages in one shot suddenly seemed overly powerful. Why use a 6d6 plasma rifle which only has 6 shots when you could use a laser pulse rifle that does 1d6x10 (from SB1) and has a lond eclip? Then the next book introduces a plasma gun that does 2d4x10 to make ammends but now a SAMAS has a crap gun.
4) Whats the point of this rant z0b?
The game was flawed to begin with, MDC is too powerful and the damages of guns is out of whack. PA and Robot weapons should do a lot more damage than an infantry rifle (SAMAS 1d4x10, NG Ion Rifle 1d4x10) and the burst rules are also stupid, in fact most of the ranged combat rules are stupid. The rules for modern combat with modern firearms are much better because they are based on actual weapons. If Rifts had stuck to that idea and kept AR and PV and only had a few energy weapons and rail guns that were mainly for Robots and PAs then a lot of this would have been avoided.

1. If people really understood Mega-Damage, they wouldn't always be wanting more and more powerful stuff. People see Mega-Damage as the standard in Rifts, but if you look at the main book it wasn't supposed to be that way. Mega-damage was supposed to be pretty rare in most places and for most people. If the later books followed the original portrait of Rifts Earth, then they would have made more and more SDC and low MDC foes instead of increasing the power of the mega-damage stuff. The reason for Power Creep is because people (including the writers at Palladium) don't use mega-damage properly. A guy in plasti-man armor with a wilk's 320 pistol can be a munchkin's dream in the proper context; even low-end MD is infinitely more powerful than high-end SDC and if you have even low-end MD gear you should be a god among men. Because the books keep portraying MD as the standard, the people who want to play powerful characters have to look for more and more powerful gear to stand out from the crowd, which is what leads to Power Creep.
2. A lot of the standard weapons from the main book can do practically that. The NG-P7 and the SAMAS railgun do 1d4x10. This can usually take out average armor (45 MDC) in 2 shots, Heavy Armor (70-80 MDC) in 3-4 shots. Or if you're in a hurry, you could fire full-auto with a lot of weapons. The standard for damage didn't really need to be raised in general. If CJ focused on upping the damage for missiles and vehicle mounted weapons, I'd be all for it... but he upped damage across the board.
3. Yup.
4. I don't believe that the MDC system is inherently flawed; it could have had most of the bugs worked out by now if Palladium had focused on that. I do agree that it should have been used more like they did in Robotech, though.

Tyciol wrote:The stats in the main book only reflected the power level of North America. Power creep is CWC and Mercenaries. Things like NGR and South America are defining things undefined, and clearly stated as being stronger. It unbalances nothing, the only thing that could cause it to be unbalancing is having players go there and bring the weapons back, which is the GM's fault.

I agree with your general point here, but New West, Spirit West, Federation of Magic, Siege on Tolkeen, Conversion Book 1, and Psyscape are also examples of power creep.

Just because something's in a book doesn't mean it's all that common. MDC items are still pretty rare in every campaign I've ever run or played in. So are MDC creatures and beings. Otherwise there wouldn't be any SDC ones left, faster breeding rate or no.
If you think my Fallen Cosmo-Knight character has an easy time of things, you're not thinking about it. He has to find an MDC girlfriend, otherwise he has to roll a Pull Punch to keep from killing and SDC girlfriend every time he wants to hold her or anything else. Shake an SDC guy's hand, it's the same thing. Or slap your SDC buddy on the back at the bar.
There are disadvantages to playing natural MDC beings, you just have to role-play them... and they have to be more careful than anyone else to avoid a murder rap. Just THINK about it.