2e?

[Colonel Wolfe]

90% of RPGnet is usually Crap.... but I dont read it anymore... it could have gotten better.

Rifts 2E would be a Great thing.(or Even Rifts Revised) but we discussed this 5 years ago.. and nothing happend excpet the GMG.

[Dr. Doom III]

Rear talking yes.

Rifts 2E would be a bad thing.

[Preacher]

Rear talking yes.

Rifts 2E would be a bad thing.

I am on the fence on this issue myself but would honestly like to hear your opinion as to why it would not be a good idea?

[Sureshot]

I am one of those of favor of a second edition. There are too many loopholes and incosistences in the in the RMB imo. "This spell should affect this and that spells probably does that". Some OCCS need updating or have been updated. Although the GMC is adequate I still feel the main rulebook needs a new edition. On the plus side it may interest old players who want to have nothing to do with the current system.

[Sureshot]

I am one of those of favor of a second edition. There are too many loopholes and incosistences in the in the RMB imo. "This spell should affect this and that spells probably does that". Some OCCS need updating or have been updated. Although the GMC is adequate I still feel the main rulebook needs a new edition. On the plus side it may interest old players who want to have nothing to do with the current system.

Well, there's also a big difference between updating a few things (which I am in favor of) and putting out an entirely new addtion. I guess I'm just set in my ways, or I am used to the little inconsistencies....

The problem with doing a few things is that you may miss some other things and when you fix those other things may appear. Myself I don't want a patch or a band aid approach. It's either a new edition or keep the old edition.

I rather not buy a ruleset spread among x number of books: Book A says that the -10 rule exists and book G says it does not. Either it does or it does not. I rather buy one book that has all or most of the rules. It reduces confusion and headaches from running the game.

I can understand and respect where you are coming from. You like most of the rules. I want KS to fix up some which I have problems with. Yes I can change it myself but I rather have it written clear and concise in a book. Plus imo it's the creators responsibility to fix his product not the fanbase. His creation his responsbility.

It worked for Wotc it can work for Palladium. Ultimately it's what brings in more money and Palladium is in this business for the fans and for more money make no mistake about it. When it's all said and done they still have writers and bills to pay.

[Dr. Doom III]

I am on the fence on this issue myself but would honestly like to hear your opinion as to why it would not be a good idea?

Two reasons.
1. Every rule revision/change/addition that was added after the main book in a word sucks. I'd hate to see what a total revamp would look like. The original rules were simple and functional.
2. I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars to replace my books. If it came to that I just wouldn't and I'd stop buying them. Then Palladium would lose a loyal customer (read addict).

[Kalinda]

I'm still reeling from the release of GURPS fourth Ed. A game I've been collecting since the original boxed set and have nearly all the sourcebooks for, totaly wrecked. even if it is a little broke, leave rifts alone. too much at risk for too little reward.

[Vrykolas2k]

I'd like a revised Rifts main-book... other than that, no new editions.

[TechnoGothic]

What i wouldnt Mind is for the MAIN Book only...

Update the Settling to the Current year.
Update Gear in the Mainbook
Update the OCCs, MCCs, PCCs, ect...
Update the Rules with an Optional Rules section for all the Added rules...

Maybe even rename it from the Old version and have Both out...
Maybe something like RIFTS Unplugged/Unlimited or Ultimate RIFTS COREbook

i like rifts i do.....but needing Mainbook, GM Guide, Book of Magic and then whatever setting books your players are using characters from gets abit heavy.

The BIGGEST thing that would need revision and Better scaling from Real Life Weapons/Materials to Hightech weapons/material is the SDC / MDC material

Better examples of What would be MDC or SDC in Real Life scales
Example : HEAT
CS Body armor is immune to SDC heat/fire
The Armor starts taking MD damage at 300 degrees far...though
Thats tells me 300 degree Farenheit is MD Heat...

MDC Concets...exaplain it better...Why are some SDc and others MDC

If a normal garnade does 1d6 MD
Then other more normal ammo should also do MD...

you get the idea....
These things come up in games

[Killer Cyborg]

I am on the fence on this issue myself but would honestly like to hear your opinion as to why it would not be a good idea?

Two reasons.
1. Every rule revision/change/addition that was added after the main book in a word sucks. I'd hate to see what a total revamp would look like. The original rules were simple and functional.
2. I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars to replace my books. If it came to that I just wouldn't and I'd stop buying them. Then Palladium would lose a loyal customer (read addict).

1. Yup. The only reservations I have against a 2nd Edition Rifts is that they'd probably screw it up.
2. I've gone the other way, unfortunately. I'm not likely to buy any future Rifts books unless they do a second edition or something.
I really wanted to get Dinosaur Swamps, but the rules are so screwed up that they've Clockwork Oranged me into a state where it is no longer possible for me to purchase a Rifts book or run a game.
The good news for Palladium is (and they already know this), no matter what move they make they will lose some big fans, but they'll gain some big fans too. They'll keep going on either way.

[Scyber]

The dilema is that either options has undesired consequences:

1) Keep adding rule revisions to new books: While this is cheaper for the current customer, it means any new customers will have to buy many books to get the "up-to-date" core rules.
2) Come out with a new edition: Cheaper for new customers, but more expensive for the existing customers.

I think that a 2nd edition is inevitable, it just comes down to how long they want to put it off.

I would prefer to see a Megaversal rule book, with each game/setting being a dimension book. But that is just me...

[Dead Boy]

The thing is, the rules are so general and vague anyways, a well-done 2E could be made in such a way that it would be 100% compatable with all the World and Dimension books that already exist. Everything that has a special effect already has its own special mechanical rules anyways, so putting this into practice wouldn't be all that hard.

What I would like to see is a book entitled "Palladium Core Rules 2.0". The thing could finally have two sets of rules in it; a Quick and Simple, much like the ones that were originally in place as of Rifts 1990, and a Comprehensive set of rules that cover the full spectrum, in full detail and all the game's potential glory. That would make everyone happy because it would allow those who want to keep things pretty much the way they were as is, but also appease those who want a more detailed game that has rules for virtually all conditions and possibilities, as well as those who fall in between who can use the simple rules and modify it with a small selection of the comprehensive ones.

[Sureshot]

I like Dead Boys suggestion. If they would do something like that I would be first in line to buy it. Plus it could be done in such a way as to be compatible and useable with current edition books. Look at the Hero System most if not all of the previous books can be used with the current edition. If done right it can be a win win situation.

Kalinda may I ask what they wrecked with Gurps 4th edition? The thing I disliked was that they still left out parts of the game system for upcoming books. It's not as bad as third edition but it's still missing some parts. That and the horrible binding that they used on the new edition. Just curious.

[Sureshot]

I like Dead Boys suggestion. If they would do something like that I would be first in line to buy it. Plus it could be done in such a way as to be compatible and useable with current edition books. Look at the Hero System most if not all of the previous books can be used with the current edition. If done right it can be a win win situation.

Kalinda may I ask what they wrecked with Gurps 4th edition? The thing I disliked was that they still left out parts of the game system for upcoming books. It's not as bad as third edition but it's still missing some parts. That and the horrible binding that they used on the new edition. Just curious.

Didn't D&D 3e have really bad bindings?

Not that I heard off. The Gurps 4th binding were so poor that if you opened the book to wide the pages came out. Most companies I know off add a stiched and glue binding to hardcovers. SJG decided that glue was good enough. They do have a policy in place to replace your books with books with better bindings but when you have two books almost 50$ each it's just plain inexcusable. Especially from SJG.

The newer hardcover releases now have better binding. Unfortunately the releasee of Gurps 4th will always be remeber as the cheap binding edition.
The only problem that i heard about D&D 3E books is that some pages were either missing or some had duplicate pages. None of the hardcover books I have from them have given me any problems. Then again i treat my books very well.

[Kalinda]

I'm still reeling from the release of GURPS fourth Ed. A game I've been collecting since the original boxed set and have nearly all the sourcebooks for, totaly wrecked. even if it is a little broke, leave rifts alone. too much at risk for too little reward.

Tell me, Kalinda, I've been curious about GURPS 4th...how's it being received? I'm sticking with the few GURPS books I had--all 3e.

I've only recently started browsing the online forums, so I can't really speak to the feelings of other GURPS players/GMs. (the GURPS forums are pretty quiet, just normal gamer chatter going on. I looked in vain for a thread entitled 'what were you people smoking?!' Although I guess that would be a lot to ask in the official SJ games forums.)
My personal experience is that I looked at the core books in the store, got an overview of the changes, then walked out without them. Another member of my group bought the core books, then returned them a week later. The store owner gave him 75% of the cover price for them and said he wasn't the first person to bring the books back.
For both of us, the issue with 4th ed is that they made major changes to deal with problems that weren't problems in our minds, while leaving intact parts of the rules that just didn't work.
The net result was to lower the overall power level of PCs and make the game both more realistic and more generic. I guess it's more in line with what Steve Jackson had in mind, a system where you can play any character in any setting, so long as you want to play a normal person who can't do much.
Although I like the system, I prefer a more cinematic style of play, one which 3rd ed was fine for despite the patchwork of rules. it has it's flaws and settings where it fails, if i want to play high fantasy, I play D&D, and if i want giant robots it's Rifts or Battletech. no system is perfect, but GURPS did a pretty good job at modern settings (horror, cliffhangers, cops, etc. that is until they effed it up.
Needless to say, I'm a little leery of a second ed of rifts.

[NoJack]

Gotta say I agree with Deadboy. I agreed with that statement before I read all the posts.

I mean who wants to go and buy another $300 worth of books? I love my books, I had to fight to extricate my collection from the group's books when I moved away. I don't play and I still occasionally buy books.

So if you wanted to re-vamp the rules, then a core rule-book would be a great way to go. Just don't expect the new rules to please everyone. I have seen enough different opinions here on this forum to choke a mule.

[Sureshot]

I'm still reeling from the release of GURPS fourth Ed. A game I've been collecting since the original boxed set and have nearly all the sourcebooks for, totaly wrecked. even if it is a little broke, leave rifts alone. too much at risk for too little reward.

Tell me, Kalinda, I've been curious about GURPS 4th...how's it being received? I'm sticking with the few GURPS books I had--all 3e.

I've only recently started browsing the online forums, so I can't really speak to the feelings of other GURPS players/GMs. (the GURPS forums are pretty quiet, just normal gamer chatter going on. I looked in vain for a thread entitled 'what were you people smoking?!' Although I guess that would be a lot to ask in the official SJ games forums.)
My personal experience is that I looked at the core books in the store, got an overview of the changes, then walked out without them. Another member of my group bought the core books, then returned them a week later. The store owner gave him 75% of the cover price for them and said he wasn't the first person to bring the books back.
For both of us, the issue with 4th ed is that they made major changes to deal with problems that weren't problems in our minds, while leaving intact parts of the rules that just didn't work.
The net result was to lower the overall power level of PCs and make the game both more realistic and more generic. I guess it's more in line with what Steve Jackson had in mind, a system where you can play any character in any setting, so long as you want to play a normal person who can't do much.
Although I like the system, I prefer a more cinematic style of play, one which 3rd ed was fine for despite the patchwork of rules. it has it's flaws and settings where it fails, if i want to play high fantasy, I play D&D, and if i want giant robots it's Rifts or Battletech. no system is perfect, but GURPS did a pretty good job at modern settings (horror, cliffhangers, cops, etc. that is until they effed it up.
Needless to say, I'm a little leery of a second ed of rifts.

I heard the same thing from the gaming store I get my books from. Some were not happy with the bindings. Some with the layout. Which I may add is the worst that I have seen in an rpg book in a long time imo. Let's but all the advantages disadvatages powers/abilites in one chapter in a jumbled mess. It was a nightmare just looking through it. Though I did see that they are using the Hero System method of writing things out.

Overall I found it a disappointment. The psionics chapters basically was just a rehash of older powers. No real rules for creating them. Wait for another book for that in 2005. Same thing with magic. That's why I like the Hero System. Everything you need in one book.

[Kalinda]

Memorax wrote

Overall I found it a disappointment. The psionics chapters basically was just a rehash of older powers. No real rules for creating them. Wait for another book for that in 2005. Same thing with magic. That's why I like the Hero System. Everything you need in one book.

This is one thing that really got my goat, the fact that they had a workable psionic system and tossed it in favor of a hero system style 'generic powers' system. it may make things more uniform, but it loses the flavor that the original system had. then there is the little fact that if i want a heros style system, I'LL FREAKIN BUY THE HEROS SYSTEM!!!

and don't get me started on the problems that they didn't fix with the 'it takes a mage five combat rounds to cast a fireball that does 3d6 damage to one person' magic system.

I'm not bitter, really.

[Dead Boy]

Just get the Splicers game. It's got the latest version of the rules.

Experimental rules that are sure to change as well on Kev's whims.

[dark brandon]

I really don't think rifts main book needs a second edition. Except for a few editing problems, I was able to play the original Rifts without much problem. Its when we started adding in other books with new things that started to become problematic.

Personally, I'd like to see another GMG of some sort. Like Book of magic, a book that has alot of the RCCs/OCCs available rather than just a list. Like Dead boy said, a book of Rules, a Rifts Atlas would also be nice. Rifts is a big place, and would be nice to have it all condenced even further.

One thing I think they need to fix (which they've already done to some extent to many OCCs) is to redo the skills all classes have. There are a few new skill sets and a bunch of new skills that have come out since the original book. Unfortunatly, not all the old OCC's have access to them. I wouldn't mind that in a rifts book.

[Chuck Lang]

I'd like to see a book that incorporates all of the rules changes that were activated after the RMB: an up-to-date compilation of current and accepted rules.

This includes what DarkBrandon was talking about: inclusion of skills that earlier classes do not have access to.

This could take on the form of the indices that have been released.

[dark brandon]

That would mean I would have to buy the books all over again and my current books wouldn't be used.

It's too much of an investment and I would have to quit altogether.

That's why it would be better to just have another Rifts GMG, with updated OCC from older books. A book that wouldn't require you to purchase a second edition of any of the older books, just 1 or 2 books to bring the older books up to speed.

[Sureshot]

Unfortunately one way or the other it's going to require money spent. Whether it's a new edition or a book that just updates the current rules to new ones published. It's unavoidable and I understand that. If I can get a better game system I don't mind putting money down for it. That just me though

Myself I rather get a new edition. Right now we have some rules that don't make sense. some that are inconsistent or contradict each other. One book that says rule x is valid and one that says rules x is not. An example is the -10 rule.

Their approach imo seems to be putting a patch on top of a patch on top of another one. Starting from scratch would imo be the best thing. More important get feedback from the fans. If must of us don't want the -10 rule don't put it in. If mages can no longer wear all types of armor make sure every book released after a new edition or update keeps the rule and not tosses it out the window. Especially not to promote a new book.

Make sure the writer stick to them and that should include KS himself. If he going to ignore the rules of a the new edition or an update it's pointless to do it. It would be a waste of time and effort. Not to mention money

Like I said before if done properly none of the previous material in other books need be obsolete. That way you can don't lose any older fans. Plus you can recruit new ones into the fold and maybe even get some old fans back.

[RainOfSteel]

Didn't D&D 3e have really bad bindings?

All my 3e DnD books did just fine, I got them all, used them a lot, and not a one split. I rather thought the physical binding and materials were first class as far as the general gaming world goes.

[RainOfSteel]

What I would like to see is a book entitled "Palladium Core Rules 2.0". The thing could finally have two sets of rules in it; a Quick and Simple, much like the ones that were originally in place as of Rifts 1990, and a Comprehensive set of rules that cover the full spectrum, in full detail and all the game's potential glory. That would make everyone happy because it would allow those who want to keep things pretty much the way they were as is, but also appease those who want a more detailed game that has rules for virtually all conditions and possibilities, as well as those who fall in between who can use the simple rules and modify it with a small selection of the comprehensive ones.

Yes, I'd defintely like to go with that.

The mechanics of Combat, Magic, etc., separated and summarized in a single core rules book.

Then, the setting: spells, gear & gizmos, OCCs, RCCs, world info, etc., all could be contained in other books.

There could be:

• Rifts: Grimoire I
• Rifts: Grimoire II
• Rifts: Gearbook
• Rifts: Bestiary I
• Rifts: Lazlo
• Rifts: Coalition States
• Rifts: Northern Gun
• Rifts: North America
• FRPG: Grimoire
• FRPG: Gearbook
• FRPG: Bestiary I

[RainOfSteel]

So if you wanted to re-vamp the rules, then a core rule-book would be a great way to go. Just don't expect the new rules to please everyone. I have seen enough different opinions here on this forum to choke a mule.

Personally, what I'd really like to see is what I'd like to call superior clarification of the rules that we have to-date. Where the actual rules concerning things are actually spelled out in the sections concerning those rules rather than being presented as threadbare and offhand rulings in a Q&A section somewhere.

[RainOfSteel]

Just get the Splicers game. It's got the latest version of the rules.

I'm not interested in the Splicers game (at the moment). It might as well not exist as far as I'm concerned.

[Sureshot]

I kind of like RainofSteel list of books. Though i don't see that happening. I wsh it would and I am hoping to be proven wrong.

and RainofSteel wrote:

"'m not interested in the Splicers game (at the moment). It might as well not exist as far as I'm concerned."

As much as I find Splicers interesting I don't see why I should pick up a new game to get new rules. I rather pick up a book filled with the rules and not tied to any setting

[grandmaster z0b]

I agree with this idea that we need a "Rules Clarification Book" for Rifts or Palladium games in general. And I like Dead Boys idea that it has a simple set of rules and a hardcore set of rules. That way we have clarifications as well as specific rules for situations, those who like a cinematic system can use the simple fast rules and those that like realism can use some or all of the other rules.
I wouldn't mind spending another $50 (that's how much I have to pay for new Palladium books in Aus) on a book like that, they could even print the simple revision rules in a Rifter or a series of Rifters to keep the cost down and keep loyal fans happy.