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Hey, you're honest; as am I! As a scorcebook it works wonderfully. As a stand alone, I am sorry, but it's not exactly of much use. I await to see the mages and if it's going to be the same old spells, or if it's going to be actually have new spells.

Hopefully Tome Grotesque will have victim rules in it (it is the monster book after all) but, as for the lack of magic, I am glad, I don't like palladium magic, and it is much easier for me to not have to carry around the extra pages with it in it...I can just overlook the Arcanum book (which hopefully WON'T have the Victim rules in it) and pretend magic doesn't exist at all.

The Ghost Hunter REALLY needs more variety, as it is, EVERY SINGLE ONE comes out as a generic Blade Meets Devil May Cry rip off...no flavor, no uniqueness, just the standard issue stuff that every one of them makes the same way? I wanted to like them...but instead I wound up using idea's from them for neat psychic weaponry for my other characters.


The Medium...that is new right? I LOVE THIS CLASS...by far my favorite class in the book...though I bent the rules and instead of having the Spirit Guide be a person, I had it be a cat that was killed by the bogey man which killed his sister, and it serves more as a mirror to reflect his thoughts on.

It sucks that the monster section was cut off at H...why give us that, why not give us a random roll table for monsters (like the one in the back of the RMB) and some equipment?

They better not reprint those monsters in the Tome Grotesque...

Now, I am biased, I never had BTS1...but I can see how it could be alot better...

I like the lack of magic.

It makes the supernatural seem less menacing when the group has magic.

I enjoyed the book.

Only thing I feel disappointed in was that growth was limited. A quick house rule changed that. 1d4 PPE for pychic, 1d6 PPE for normal humans every level after first allows for more character growth. (there is a limit to what one can buy, such as no stat can go over 15, and all have to buy from the normal human table). In play testing, this didn't seem to unbalance the game much

Lack of equipment.

Pychics I still feel were too powerful.

A 7 out of 10. I am not sorry to have spent $20 bucks on this book, and do recommend it.

I like that growth rule idea.

I might use that

darkbrandon wrote:I enjoyed the book.

Only thing I feel disappointed in was that growth was limited. A quick house rule changed that. 1d4 PPE for pychic, 1d6 PPE for normal humans every level after first allows for more character growth. (there is a limit to what one can buy, such as no stat can go over 15, and all have to buy from the normal human table). In play testing, this didn't seem to unbalance the game much

Lack of equipment.

Pychics I still feel were too powerful.

A 7 out of 10. I am not sorry to have spent $20 bucks on this book, and do recommend it.

I gave it 3 out of 5(10).

Sorry but half a rulebook is half a rulebook and I grade accordingly so its grade is 3 out of 5(10).

the 1X 2X 4X whathave you is a good Idea but a bit clunky, and from what I can see will just mean that untill you get the X2 boost or better, no one will toutch their powers.

which incidentaly will make this a ***** to intergrate into other systems, After all logicaly in HU any Psi player will want to use their powers, and how do you adjust for other relms

hmm

BTS =baseline so


+ to each "threat level"
0 Splicers (Might do special rules for that, hmm)
1 Mystic China
2 System Failure
3 HU
4 Nightbain
5 RIFTS Earth


IDEA!


(For the Spliververse)

Thechno Psi

Bascialy the closer they are to Tech the higher the threat level

1X Normal in areas with no technology(Ie the homes of the resistance)

2X The usual when in the feild

4X Retro vilages, which has tech enough to keep an eye on the "animals" in them, or a group of Technomancers.

6X Ghost towns, or zones of influence of one of the "personalities", or when in combat with the heavy combat units

10X when in the "presence" of one of the controll entities

Bio Psi, basicaly the reverse, Ie the higher the concentration of "Metal"technology the worse their powers are, but the higher the concentration of "Bio" technology the more powerfull they are.

As for what is missing, well the magic and Equipment are the two that would have actualy made this a more complete book, but with the Arcanum™ for Beyond the Supernatural™ not due out untill "May or June"(more realisticaly I would have to say August but then Im optomistic that they will be able to ship a book a month) I will have to withhold my final grade untill then.

Geronimo 2.0 wrote:May or june? of this year?

I dunno...I did see try to get it out fast...so that could mean may or june..

of 2009

Deus Edge Machina wrote:

Geronimo 2.0 wrote:May or june? of this year?

I dunno...I did see try to get it out fast...so that could mean may or june..
of 2009

just so long as it dosent turn into May or June of 2006

while I was looking forward to picking up BTS2 this weekend, the lack of victum rules has me contimplating. I loved the 1st ed.



Honestly, the only thing I ever cared to run (or have run) have been the victum games. Specially at Halloween.

Entiago wrote:while I was looking forward to picking up BTS2 this weekend, the lack of victum rules has me contimplating. I loved the 1st ed.



Honestly, the only thing I ever cared to run (or have run) have been the victum games. Specially at Halloween.

He spent a good deal on detailing the setting in this book. It's still a good book to pick up. And while there are no victom rules, normal humans can still do the job of creating a horrific setting where players lack any real special abilities and must rely on wits.

Oh, one thing. He gave like half a page detailing the "Reality check" thing...And it seems almost like a rant. One section is like "So if you find yourself turning out the light and burning candles, wearing robes, casting spells from this book or seeing spirits, toss this book in the corner and talk to somebody quick".

Well, I actually do happen to believe in spirits, and have seen a number of them (I live real close to the Waverly, an old TB hospital, one of the most 'haunted' areas in america) and in my spare time do really "ghost hunt" . This is one reason why I like BTS so much.

Drakenred wrote:

Deus Edge Machina wrote:

Geronimo 2.0 wrote:May or june? of this year?

I dunno...I did see try to get it out fast...so that could mean may or june..
of 2009

just so long as it dosent turn into May or June of 2006

I see you didn't size up that little blurb I put in there

Lack of equipment lists?

Looks like another case of 1e being better than 2e.

Xander wrote:So anyone know where i can get a copy of the 1st ed.?

Try Barnes and Noble Out of Print section.

Geronimo 2.0 wrote:Reviewers Notes:
Please, I beg of anyone at Palladium, Please tell Kevin that the Victims rules were awesome, they are a more interesting and challenging form of play than "hey, I'll just use my special abilities and kill the monster!" gaming. Heroes don't have to win to be heroes, and you can have alot of fun getting Victim characters killed (I give extra points and a prize to people who RP their deaths well... okay, the prize is that I don't burn them with a cigarette, but that's just me; it's not recomended unless you can pull it off with a smile). It was something that really made the original BTS better and more interesting than any other horror game on the market. Without them, BTS is a very generic Horror RPG without the Horror.

We are thinking about doing a sourcebook devoted to the Victim character.
We have not forgotten about it.



Alex M

o={=redemption=> wrote:Zylo- I was just stating that there is very little to change in the book to modify it around actually "anyones' personal requirements."

That depends on the person in question's "personal requirements." Some of us have a pretty huge list of personal requirements that BTS2 doesn't even come close to covering.

The main reason I change some of the things is to keep the characters guessing. It's worked for me for over 27 years of gaming and GMing (17 of those years with Palladium). Even though Palladium doesn't always satisfy everyone (an impossibility in the real world) they keep the majority of the fans entertained with good material. That's a fact considering they are very successful at what they do. Hell I wish I could make a living doing what Palladium does.

Judging by the number of disappointed replies in this forum regarding BTS2, I'd have to say they didn't keep the majority of fans entertained on this one. That may change if they get out the Aracanum, Monster book, Victim rules, and Equipment book (not holding my breath) though.

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:Judging by the number of disappointed replies in this forum regarding BTS2, I'd have to say they didn't keep the majority of fans entertained on this one. That may change if they get out the Aracanum, Monster book, Victim rules, and Equipment book (not holding my breath) though.

Nope. No extra books. Not for this line anyway.

I got a better vibe and was more completed by systems failure fer crissakes.

Batts

As GM, I try to prevent that sort of "bonus-loading" if there's no logical reason for the character to be loading up on physical skills.
I don't care if it's 'legal': if it's not sensible, then I'm not going to allow it.
Zylo: you and that Parapsychologist switch SDCs.
Go on now.

Zylo wrote:

Sentinel wrote:As GM, I try to prevent that sort of "bonus-loading" if there's no logical reason for the character to be loading up on physical skills.
I don't care if it's 'legal': if it's not sensible, then I'm not going to allow it.
Zylo: you and that Parapsychologist switch SDCs.
Go on now.

Heh, thanks, but I doubt the player with the Para will give in to such a trade. I know why he did it, cause the GM has a history of being a killer of characters when he tries to make it challenging. The GM didn't say anything about it, so there you go.

Personally, it's just part of the system that is silly. Taking aerobics, kickboxing, athletics, boxing, and whatever makes you a better fighter than taking HTH MA. Just like a roundhouse kick can do as much damage as a 9mm!

I've seen kickers who can do as much blunt tissue damage as a 9mm does with its' penetrative effects.
For the purpose of a cinematic style game, I have no problem with that.
I can understand why a character might have Martial Arts (of any kind, within reason) but when a player loads up on the 'big four', unless he's an HUII Physical Training character, it's all for bonuses.

Zylo wrote:

Sentinel wrote:I've seen kickers who can do as much blunt tissue damage as a 9mm does with its' penetrative effects.

I've seen plenty of martial artists myself that I think could kill with a single kick, but they didn't take kickboxing at the Y to do it. You're talking a master skill level, and I don't have a problem with that.

I have a problem with the person with a PS of 6 takes Tae Bo/Kickboxing at the local gym and can now do 3D6 or 3D8 with a kick. Now take your standard 9mm out of the CoCW that does 2D6, 3D6 with hollow points. Time to say WTH?

Even an amateur can break a rib with a kick. Of course, the real trick is in landing it. The same YMCA amateur with the 3D6 and Kung-Fu grip still has no strike bonus at level one.
In any event, the kick will not require medical treatment to recover from: I would require it for the gunshot.
3D8 is too high for any melee attack with hands and kicks, unless you have some kind of enhanced PS.
An alternative is using N&SS martial arts, and restricting the types attacks to any character with Basic, Expert and "generic" Martial Arts.

Geronimo 2.0 wrote:

Entiago wrote:while I was looking forward to picking up BTS2 this weekend, the lack of victum rules has me contimplating. I loved the 1st ed.



Honestly, the only thing I ever cared to run (or have run) have been the victum games. Specially at Halloween.

What's fun is if you can get a victims campaign going. You have everybody playing create six quick-and-random rolled victims. Their charcters may be connected somehow (relatives, best friend, co-worker, neighbors etc...) or not at all, depending on the situation, I suggest a little of both.
They each start with one of their characters and play them until they drop or go insane beyond playability, then the GM takes over that character as an NPC.
The GM can set any number of goals or conditions that would be usable: Escape a Zombie apocolypse in their neighborhood (brain eating hijinks ensue), a plague of gremlins and various minor demons in their Office building during the company "Winter Holiday" party (Bad Puns for every occasion), Supernatural Summer Camp Massacre (sex kills kids, dead), Cruise liner sucked into the Bermuda triangle (then the GM can throw all kinds of wierd crap at them).

We agree on very little Commie, and I like it that way. But in regards to victim rules games, I am with you 100%. They were the best thing about BTS. We played a zombies victims rules game where everybody rolled up themselves. It was a blast. And we've played every conceivable slasherfilm scenario, including multiple sequels, you can possibly imagine.

o={=redemption=> wrote:About how kicking damage and a 9mm do the same amount of damage... I use the idea from The Compendium of Contemporary Weapons. In order to use firearms in gaming you need to use some common sense. Bullets vs. the human body- the human body will, more often than not, be the one that succumbs. It also states that any damage received by bullets should be deducted from the character's Hit Points, bypassing the S.D.C. Of coarse this is optional, but it does make a game more realistic. I've done this for years. My players moaned and groaned about it at first, but once they saw it in play there was no complaining. They loved the idea. I also use Hit Location- it makes the game alot more interesting when a player can't use their arm after taking a round or two in it. They have all actually became much better gamers and have made my job as GM alot harder, but that's part of the fun. You should see these guys play Recon- they are coordinated and as organized as most Marines and some of the SEALs that I've know.

The "bypassing S.D.C." rule isn't for everyone, but it worked out great for us. Especially when they realized that the same rule went for their characters' opponents as well. My cousin seems to have a fetish about head shots

Once A Marine Always A Marine.

That and the optional System shock rules when using guns. It brings out their true deadly ability.

If I played or ran Recon, I would run it far less cinematically.
I realise that the four colour madcap cinematic style isn't for everyone: it's just my preference for games that aren't wholly realistic to begin with.

Sentinel wrote:If I played or ran Recon, I would run it far less cinematically.
I realise that the four colour madcap cinematic style isn't for everyone: it's just my preference for games that aren't wholly realistic to begin with.

I'm inbetween. I like realisim with Cinematics. There are things I'd allow a player to do that couldn't be done IRL without huge penalties, at the same time, I like that element of danger.

I don't think it's an extream either way, I think most like it somewhere in the middle.

Zylo wrote:

Sentinel wrote:

Zylo wrote:

Sentinel wrote:I've seen kickers who can do as much blunt tissue damage as a 9mm does with its' penetrative effects.

I've seen plenty of martial artists myself that I think could kill with a single kick, but they didn't take kickboxing at the Y to do it. You're talking a master skill level, and I don't have a problem with that.

I have a problem with the person with a PS of 6 takes Tae Bo/Kickboxing at the local gym and can now do 3D6 or 3D8 with a kick. Now take your standard 9mm out of the CoCW that does 2D6, 3D6 with hollow points. Time to say WTH?

Even an amateur can break a rib with a kick. Of course, the real trick is in landing it. The same YMCA amateur with the 3D6 and Kung-Fu grip still has no strike bonus at level one.
In any event, the kick will not require medical treatment to recover from: I would require it for the gunshot.
3D8 is too high for any melee attack with hands and kicks, unless you have some kind of enhanced PS.
An alternative is using N&SS martial arts, and restricting the types attacks to any character with Basic, Expert and "generic" Martial Arts.

Yeah, having to get a 5 or better is difficult on a d20 roll. The parry and dodge helps offset this, but accurately throwing the kick is easy in the game.

I make 1-4 an automatic miss, with no bonuses added.

So you require gunshot wounds to require medial treatment even if they do minor SDC damage? I mean, we do too, like bandages and such, but by the rules you can just "walk it off."

Depending on the severity, anything from First Aid to Paramedic will do, in terms of skills/medical attention for a gunshot wound. But, at least something.
If nothing is available, you make a save vs. pain in any attempt to "play with the pain".

What's even better, if you notice the Power Kick option you have now in BTS2, you can take two actions and do double the damage with a kick. We used that last night when playing and the wussy Parapsychologist was doing 6D6 with a kick, only one die more than a shotgun slug! Very cinematic I suppose.

Remember that while the kick damage is high, the average character will only be able to thow it twice in a round. Against certain creatures and entities, that extra power in the kick is not enough for me to rely on this.

Zylo wrote:

Yeah, having to get a 5 or better is difficult on a d20 roll. The parry and dodge helps offset this, but accurately throwing the kick is easy in the game.

I make 1-4 an automatic miss, with no bonuses added.

Why, may I ask? Just to have a greater chance to miss, or because you believe the rules are stated that way? The inherant accuracy in Palladium is silly, but auto-missing with a natural 1-4 never made sense to me either.

In part, it was an interpretation of the rules, but also, it was necessary to have some means by which a character could miss in combat.
In our earliest N&SS games (which I combined with BtS), most players would not ever miss even on a roll of 1, after they added their bonuses (unless the opponent parried or dodged).
In a sense it was my response as a GM to the bonus-whores I had at the time. It continues to work to this day.

What's even better, if you notice the Power Kick option you have now in BTS2, you can take two actions and do double the damage with a kick. We used that last night when playing and the wussy Parapsychologist was doing 6D6 with a kick, only one die more than a shotgun slug! Very cinematic I suppose.

Remember that while the kick damage is high, the average character will only be able to thow it twice in a round. Against certain creatures and entities, that extra power in the kick is not enough for me to rely on this.

You miss my point. I don't care how often you can throw the kick, it's the fact that a single kick from a fairly weak person can do more damage than a .12 gauge slug!!! That is just plain wrong IMO.

Have you ever watched demos where children (13 and less) break cinderblocks with kicks and select punches? I saw a 13 year old (how strong can the average 13 year old be) break three cinder block slabs with a side kick in Orlando, at an ISKA tournament.
A "fairly weak" person still has a chance of also rolling all 1s on 6D6. But, in the final analysis, the kicker using Power Kick twice in a melee round can do 12D6.
The shotgunner can fire four times that same round, and can do 20D6.
Now, whos' doing more damage?

Zylo wrote:

Sentinel wrote:Have you ever watched demos where children (13 and less) break cinderblocks with kicks and select punches? I saw a 13 year old (how strong can the average 13 year old be) break three cinder block slabs with a side kick in Orlando, at an ISKA tournament.
A "fairly weak" person still has a chance of also rolling all 1s on 6D6. But, in the final analysis, the kicker using Power Kick twice in a melee round can do 12D6.
The shotgunner can fire four times that same round, and can do 20D6.
Now, whos' doing more damage?

No, I've never seen a 13 year old break cinder block slabs. The majority of the breaking events I've seen were a joke. They use spacers and the majority of the breaking is from the weight of the other broken items. You break the top one and basically push it into the others and they break under the weight. Unless you had a guy or two holding three slabs up and a single kick broke them...that would be impressive, but I find it unlikely. Cinder blocks would be hard to break, cinder block slabs not that difficult. Breaking a slab would probably be like two boards and I could do that when I was 13. No biggy.
They weren't using spacers.
Although, I've done breaking with and without, and I never felt the weight of the broken material contributing.
And yes, to break with a side kick, you'd have to have the slabs suspended upright. Spacers couldn't really be used there.

Now, I'm not really caring about damage potential over a melee. That doesn't matter to me, but depending on the rolls, the kicker could do more damage. I find that ludicrous. Plus, don't get me started about how HTH training increases the shooters speed.

Yeah, but until WP: Modern Weapons give attacks per melee, then those extra attacks have to come from somewhere.

Palladium damages has always been screwed up, even with some kicks having more damage potential than swords or other weapons. Now with the power kick we have them doing far more damage than some guns...even big guns. I woudn't care so much if this was N&S or the Ancient Master, but from someone with the kickboxing skill that doesn't even count as a HTH? Lame!

Yeah well, I had mixed feelings about Kickboxing as a Physical Skill to begin with. I agree with you about the scale of damage being off: but, using HUII, it doesn't really matter to me anyway. In an average game, 1 character will use guns out of six player characters.
In any event, I wouldn't want different damages for basic techniques from setting to setting: I want one table of damage, for a Roundhouse kick to do the same dice-of-damage in Nightbane, HUII, BtS, Rifts, or anywhere else in the Megaverse.

Zylo wrote:

Sentinel wrote:In any event, I wouldn't want different damages for basic techniques from setting to setting: I want one table of damage, for a Roundhouse kick to do the same dice-of-damage in Nightbane, HUII, BtS, Rifts, or anywhere else in the Megaverse.

Now that would be nice. Like having one Strength category that made sense or guns doing the same damage from setting to setting. We can only hope and dream, I suppose.

I can make sense out of the PS tables.
Normal PS is as normal. Add damage bonus to HtH if any.
I don't use MDC so the PS Damage bonus is always added to everything for me.
Bionic, and Brute, and Extraordinary are all the same.
Robotic, Beastly, and Super Human are all the same. Add 1D to all HtH attacks.
Supernatural, Crushing, and Supernatural (HUII) all use the Supernatural PS damage table found in HUII.

When converting from different settings, compare lift/carry abilities.
Lift=200X, then it's Extraordinary.
Lift =300X then it's Superhuman.
Lift=500X then it's Supernatural.
This means that a vampire from Rifts does not have the same catagory of PS as Hercules.

Unkledak wrote:I myself use one other strength category; Paranormal I use this for a x50 carry, x100 lift. This works for many of the lesser supernatural creatures and abilities. I find it fits in nicely. I've lately been thinking of adding a Divine lvl strength x500 carry and x1000 lift for godlings of unusual PS and greater Dragons and full powered gods.

When I play a straight game, it's not a big deal. Even blending N&SS and BtS wasn't a major thing. But, when combining HU and the others, it became necessary to have additional PS catagories, as you said, to separate guys like Heracles, Adult Dragons, and whathaveyou.
When I think of vampires, I think of Dracula, who had the strength of 20 men according to Stoker. Super Heroes are often way-way stronger than that.
I even had to add a sub-catagory, for characters/creatures with PS of 70 or higher: Carry 500X, Lift 1000X.
There aren't many of them, but they do exist.

After watching Muay Thai professionals shin kick through a baseball bat (and walk away happy), I'd say there's comparable power. It may not have the same quality of hydrostatic shock, penetration, and the difference in mass is obvious.
I think if you ask Duk Kuk Kim (who was killed by punch from Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini) whether the punch or a bullet would have hurt more, I'm sure he'd say that he's just as dead either way.

Maybe if you're doing point fighting where touching is all that matters. Please...

Point fighting lacks the elements of full contact true. I have always regarded point fighting as a quick-draw competition: Either you're quick, or your dead. If I can't dodge or parry a punch or kick in point fighting, in my mind, that represents serious injury at least to me.
All you do is touch (although I've been in plenty where the touching gets pretty vigorous). But, what really matters is speed.

Point fighting is no substitute for realistic training, full contact and good conditioning.
Point fighting is good for developing the mentality that you get one shot. Only one. Make it count.

Zylo wrote:

Sentinel wrote:Point fighting is good for developing the mentality that you get one shot. Only one. Make it count.

I went to a few point sparring tourneys when I was younger, and now I look back and laugh at what was considered a "good" shot.

The problem I see with the blinding, fast one shot mentality is people who don't land that strike don't know what the heck to do afterwards. They aren't training to fight and win with effective combinations. They are training to land something, anything, first, and not think about defense. I just don't like it, but opinions vary...

Our instructor gave us the mentality that being fast was a good defense.
He also taught us that one punch often would not end a fight.
But, to still train to land a clean, precise, fast blow, and not get hit in the process.
We trained in full-contact, but that was for developing a different set of skills.
It can be a joke, yes.
It can also be used to sharpen skills if looked at properly.

My copy of BTS2 is on the way via mail order. I got the original BTS years ago when it first came out in 1991 or so from a store in the Mall of Memphis when I was stationed at a Strategic Air Command base in nearby Arkansas. I LOVED the game. It introduced me into a world of contemporary horror... I rented my first horror movies, read my first horror novels, purchased and listened to my first horror soundtrack scores (The Thing, Night Breed, Friday the 13th The Series, A Nightmare on Elm Street, etc...). BTS was rich and very well done.

I can't wait to get the 2nd Edition, but... without having even seen it... and having read your list of shortcomings, it dismays me to read that Palladium left out such elements as magic, victims, etc. I suppose they see that the collection of several books as "core" to the idea and game of Beyond the Supernatural. In other words, once all three books are released, we'll all have an "expanded" version of the original book. This does increase profit... and while they are in it because they love what they do, they also have to look at the business side of things and "the bottom line." Money.

Maybe I can add some more meaningful comments once my book arrives. I can't wait to see the new art... read the new writing... immerse myself into the mystery, the supernatural... the ethereal, the astral... and, most of all... the HORROR.

Chai

Heeey, it's not that bad. Remember...