OMG BTSN 2

[Drakenred®™©]

So I take it you liked it more than I did?

I gave it a 3 out of 5 of 10 posible points since they only shiped half of the game, We will have to see what the total score is when they finaly shiped the books, and to be honest, this is the first book from them that honestly has me wondering if I should pulp it. up untill now I thought Splicers was the most useless thing they have put out but even that I can rig to work with my Rifts game.

the most usefull thing here, the 1X-10X modifier to ISP and even that is soo clunky that I probably will not even try to use it.

Quite frankly if you have Rifts and Nightbain you already have everthing you need to run a supernatural horror game.

[Sureshot]

I find myself in middle ground with BTS 2nd Edition. While I like what they did with the skills I was not happy that both magic and some monsters were left out. Don't call it a complete game if it's missing parts. I spend spme time looking through it and ultimatelty left without purchasing it,

[Rayven]

I liked it. The only thing I have felt was a let down so far was Chaos Earth...and that only because it kept referencing the Rifts equivalent of stuff. And it kept telling me to buy Rifts books to explain the Chaos Earth setting.

BTS2 I find is better than BTS1. So the monsters are in a different book. Big deal. You ever heard of Palladium Fantasy? How about a book called Monsters & Animals? I find that it works better to have the villains and such in a different book.

[maasenstodt]

The only thing I have felt was a let down so far was Chaos Earth...and that only because it kept referencing the Rifts equivalent of stuff. And it kept telling me to buy Rifts books to explain the Chaos Earth setting.

To me, Rifts: England was a let down. Chaos Earth was a frakking disaster.

[Guest]

Ultimately its not the book, but the imagination and know-how that make any of the Palladium Books successful. I find very little wrong with the book and can't wait for the other books to come out. I just think its ironic that we, as players, think that we need to be satisfied personally by Palladium Books. I have never really judged then by whether or not I like a book. My opinion is my opinion and nothing more. These guys know what they're doing. They've been successful at it since approximately '85. I'd say they've made a successful career in making the majority happy. I'm one of them. I've been gaming and GMing Palladium since '88.

The Only Thing Necessary For The Triumph Of Evil Is For Good Men To Do Nothing. -Edmund Burke

Once A Marine Always A Marine
Semper Fi
0331

What? We as consumers can't demand a quality product?!? And that's "ironic"????

[Sureshot]

Ultimately its not the book, but the imagination and know-how that make any of the Palladium Books successful. I find very little wrong with the book and can't wait for the other books to come out. I just think its ironic that we, as players, think that we need to be satisfied personally by Palladium Books. I have never really judged then by whether or not I like a book. My opinion is my opinion and nothing more. These guys know what they're doing. They've been successful at it since approximately '85. I'd say they've made a successful career in making the majority happy. I'm one of them. I've been gaming and GMing Palladium since '88.

The Only Thing Necessary For The Triumph Of Evil Is For Good Men To Do Nothing. -Edmund Burke

Once A Marine Always A Marine
Semper Fi
0331

What? We as consumers can't demand a quality product?!? And that's "ironic"????

I agree. Since when is it wrong to ask for a quality product? Ironic? Hardly.

[Sureshot]

I see psion. As long as one is always post postive commnetary on products one is not a whiner nor lacks imagination. If one does the reverse one lacks both. Thank you for making it so clear for us. No really

[Sentinel]

One can never watch "too much" Battlestar Galactica. Anyone who says differently is a Cylon spy.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a quality product.
Everyone will have different feelings about what that entails.
I liked BtS2: others have not.
I liked Chaos Earth, but I felt it could have offered more.
And, there are things about other Palladium books I hate, that others seem to like (MDC, for example).
Whether or not we agree, let's respect each others' opinions, and listen to the reasons for forming those opinions.

[maasenstodt]

One can never watch "too much" Battlestar Galactica. Anyone who says differently is a Cylon spy.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a quality product.
Everyone will have different feelings about what that entails.
I liked BtS2: others have not.
I liked Chaos Earth, but I felt it could have offered more.
And, there are things about other Palladium books I hate, that others seem to like (MDC, for example).
Whether or not we agree, let's respect each others' opinions, and listen to the reasons for forming those opinions.

Well stated.

[Drakenred®™©]

My two big *itches on this were one: The product is as far from a stand along book/game as they could make it, And number two: could it be any farther from the Megaverse standard?

They could have made it D-20.

[Maryann]

My two big *itches on this were one: The product is as far from a stand along book/game as they could make it, And number two: could it be any farther from the Megaverse standard?

They could have made it D-20.

Thats the only thing that would make "some" of the people here happy. There are certain people here that just slay me. I'm not sure why some people even bother to look at Palladium's stuff because unless its D20 they're aren't happy. But then again if they didn't ***** they wouldn't have anything to say.

Good thing that these people are in the minority

[Sureshot]

I see psion. As long as one is always post postive commnetary on products one is not a whiner nor lacks imagination. If one does the reverse one lacks both. Thank you for making it so clear for us. No really

You see Memorax, I disagree with the poster of this thread and stated my opinion on what was said. People do not always have to post a positive commentary on a product, but if I disagree I have the right to state that I disagree. Or am I not allowed to make replys to posts if I disagree with? If I see something as whining or a lack of imaginacion I will call it such.

I just can't imagine waiting for something, getting it then deciding it sucked without even trying it. It seems like a lack of imagination on my part.

Oh well....Your loss

I never said you were not allowed to disagree psion. You were the one who took apparent offence at anyone who disliked this game.

I did not like being labelled as someone who is a whiner or who lacks imagination. Which is what you called anyone who disliked this game. I do not consider that an opinion I consider that a personel attack. Look at some other responses to this thread. None of them attacked anyone for having a difference of opinion. Such as o={=redemption=> response.

Fianlly no big loss for me really.

[Sureshot]

Kuresu & Memorax-
I wasn't sayingthat it wasn't right for people to want a quality product. I was just stating that it seems to be ironic that since I've been coming to this site and when I was in the chats I've watched the xepectations of the players change from logical hopes and wants of a product to almost insane and unrealistic demands. True, Palladium could have (in my opinion) done a better job at some of their books. Still- from looking at the opinions of a good numbar of players- they're expecting more than what they are willing to pay for. If the people would pay for a 350-450 page book I'm sure they would have no problem printing one. I have heard too many complaints about the cost in these forums as it is so I know people would complain about a larger book regardless.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Myself and others. I was just stating that in my 17 years gaming Palladium there has been very little that has disappointed me. There has been some, but that's life. The majority of Palladium's products are good, not all are exceptional, but most are good. I just hope that the ones who don't like BTS2 doesn't ruin it for those who love it. I do understand how disappointing it is to look forward to a book's release and then not like it. My advice, chalk it up to "that sucks" and leave it at that. That's what I did for Mechanoids, Villians Unlimited, System Failure and Splicers. Hopefully the BTS2 sourcebooks that are supposed to be out soon will make up for what's missing in the 2nd Edition. We can only wait and see. Besides- ever hear the saying "don't cry over spilt milk?" The ones who don't like the book have made their point and have been heard. No use whining about it anymore.

The Only Thing Necessary For The Truimph Of Evil Is For Good Men To Do Nothing- Edmund Burke

Once A Marine- Always A Marine
Semper Fi
0331

It's not what they did to the game and I agree with most that it should have been updated. Nor is changing it into "rifts lite" as some has said bother me. After all the BTS world is what Rifts Earth will eventually evolve to. Unless that no longer applies.

What bothers me is that they release BTS 2nd edition with "a complete game label when it is not. I consider that false advertising. Also would it have really been that much of an effort on Palladiums end to release both Arcanum and Tome grotesque at the same time as BTS 2nd ed was released? Imo no. Doing so makes sense. Especially on a financial level.

As it stands I cannot really get a complete view of the game and the rules without the other books. It's like getting a car and being told the engine will be sent to you in six months.I personally would have rather they delayed the release of the game and came out wilth all three books. This type of behavior from palladium is starting to remind me of the old Tsr. I know this statement will make some unhappy but that's how I honestly feel. You think after the way some reacted to the same reaction to ther missing parts in Chaos Earth they would not repeat the same mistake.

Mind you my feelings about the game may yet change with the release of the other two books.

[Sureshot]

Amen brother.

BTW, I hate D20 more than ANYTHING Palladium has ever put out. No, that isn't not true...I LOATHE D20....that is more accurate.

Personally I like D20. It's actually my favorite system at the moment

[Natalya]

Any game that can be played or GMed by using a single book. BTS2 falls under that category. Still- I understand why it may not look like a "complete game" if compaired to the 1st Edition. There was alot more information in the 1st Edition than the 2nd, but it is still a "complete game." I'm not into the magic part of BTS- so that part not being in doesn't affect me, but I do see why it would disappoint magi fans.

Maybe I hang with a totally different group of people, but every gamer I've met (in person) has always been of the opinion that psionics aren't really necessary, but magic is a requirement for a decent game. So by not having the magic, BtS2 is forcing those of us who prefer magic to either get a different Palladium book to make up for the lack of mention, or create our own from scratch. Either way, that means it's not complete, as it cannot be played with what we consider essential from just that one book.

Now, add to that the fact that Palladium has always advertised a "megaversal" system. To me, "megaversal" means that different stuff should fit together with a minimum-to-no fuss. So I have to ask - with the extremely low starting ISP and threat levels, how are you going to drop a BtS2 psychic into a group that pulls from TMNT, HU2, Rifts, and PFRPG, and not have the GM get frustrated with having to keep track of different ISP amounts for just one player/character, and not have the player get frustrated because a HU2 villian just mopped the floor with his character in less than one round? I know the obvious way is to change the way ISP works for the BtS2 character to make it more compatible with everyone else -- so why make it non-megaversal standard to begin with?

As a stand-alone - it's incomplete.
As part of the megaverse - it requires too much conversion.

Our particular group of gamers have looked through borrowed copies and have listened to a lot of people on these boards (even the ones that love it). It won't fit our needs, requires too much altering, and has added waaaaay too much realism vs enjoyability (trying to explain why psychic powers don't work under lab conditions). One of the GMs (three of us alternate) heard about the new version of the latent psychic, and his immediate response was "Great, a character with permanent PMS!"

So I guess you can count me as a whiner. But I really don't see what is so great about a book that doesn't cover everything and leaves the megaverse standard in the dust.

[Guest]

"As part of the megaverse - it requires too much conversion. "

Thats the odd thing, Natalya, I don't think it is suposed to jive with the rest of the megaverse. The reason I believe this is that other games state on the back 'compatable with Rifts and the Palladium megaverse' or something like that. Nowhere on BTS 2 does it say that. I would not want to take my BTS 2 psychic to HU, he would be slaped happy in short order, so I can see why that would not make some folk happy. For me it was not a consideration since I play most of my Palladium games as stand alone and have very little mixage. The exception being

*Sigh* Yeah, actually BTS2 does state it's "Compatible with the entire Palladium Books Megaverse!" it's on the very first page.

[Sureshot]

. I do not consider that an opinion I consider that a personel attack.

I was not attack ing you personely, just geeneral attack to all whinning I have seen of this page.

The point is it was uncalled for. Whether it's directed at myself or others. Calling it a general attack includes myself or others in the thread. It does not matter if you refered to myself or not.

I can understand your need to defend a game you like. At the same time remember that there are others who may not. I respect your position on the matter all that I ask is you respect mine.

[Sureshot]

Sureshot-
I see BTS2 as a complete game and it has been writen as one. Maybe everyone has their own definition of a "complete game." What the definition means to mosy of us veteran gamers (gaming since '76 qualifies me as a veteran- in my opinion ). Any game that can be played or GMed by using a single book. BTS2 falls under that category. Still- I understand why it may not look like a "complete game" if compaired to the 1st Edition. There was alot more information in the 1st Edition than the 2nd, but it is still a "complete game." I'm not into the magic part of BTS- so that part not being in doesn't affect me, but I do see why it would disappoint magi fans. I would be annoyed about that too. I am more into the cryptozoological references (monsters) and there wasn't much of those which dissapointed me, but still BTS2 is a "complete game" by definition- therefore not false advertising. However, most of us would have prefered a "more complete game." Also- I understand why they are releasing the main book and sourcebooks seperately. I have been waiting for this book (as well as many other players) for a very long time. It would be much quicker to release the main book at an earlier date and then release the others later. Sitting on a book and not printing it doesn't make any money. Just like any good successful business- you've got to make the majority happy and make a profit. Palladium is just doing what most ask them to do. They have gotten a lot positive feedback for doing Rifts this way and have been told in forums that they need to do the same with other systems. That's what they did with BTS2. The car reference about being bought, but the engine doesn't come until later doesn't make much sense since BTS2 does come "with an engine." It just happens to be a slow engine . I'm with you though when it comes to rather having the book delayed a little longer in order to have the sourcebooks released the same time, but it's just not good business.
You also mentioned how what you've written will make some unhappy and I'm sure that's true, but it's your opinion. You are entitled to it and I actually agree with you about most of what you have said. I have been accused of being a push-over when it comes to what Palladium does (not by you- just in the past). That's not the case at all. I just understand what makes a business successful. It sometimes annoys the Hell out of us, but realistically it makes sense.

For the record I want to appologize to those who I have offended by making the whining reference. I have just had it with all the complaints that it seems the same people are making. I would understand if the same people were making different complaints, but all they are doing is repeating the same thing over and over again. I does get real old real quick. They aren't doing any converting- that's for sure, but I still shouldn't have refered to it as whining. For that I apologize.

Once A Marine- Always A Marine.
Semper Fi
0331

Well said redemption. I can understand the fans of the game getting upset about all the negative comments about BTS 2. I would not expect less from fans of this game or any other rpg. AS long as one is respectful of the opposing opinion.

The thing is the game is missing parts imo to run. If we had all the parts than yes I would be complaing for the sake of complaining but as it is with both Arcanum and Tome grotesque coming much later down the line one cannot help but feel unsatisfied.

I just hope this is the last of the microsoft products from Palladium.

[Sentinel]

Actually, I have many times flipped through one book to another for one element or another : HUII may have a spell, or psionic description that works with whatever I'm running, while space vehicles construction in Phase World gives me options that Aliens Unlimited does not. N&SS and Mystic China are my standards for HtH combat, but I still get a lot of use out of the Rifts GMG as well.
Okay, so BtS needs two sourcebooks, but I didn't complain about having to buy a Monster Manual and Unearthed Arcanna for D&D, nor about being GM and yet still needing a GMs' guide as well as a Players' Guide.

[maasenstodt]

Okay, so BtS needs two sourcebooks, but I didn't complain about having to buy a Monster Manual and Unearthed Arcanna for D&D, nor about being GM and yet still needing a GMs' guide as well as a Players' Guide.

The difference between the D&D approach and Palladium's is that WotC doesn't make any bones about needing multiple books to play, whereas Palladium sells "complete, stand-alone" games. What's more, WotC has released all of the necessary materials for D&D at one time, whereas Chaos Earth (for example) is still incomplete!

If Palladium came out and said you can't play a game without additional materials, complaints in that regard would die down.

[Natalya]

A complete Game? Lets take a look shall we? Magic? No. Equipment? No. Ley lines? No. Are the monsters complete? Well if you just use the monsters with the Psychic powers it's okay, but if you want to use the two monsters with magical powers S.O.L. The list also doesn't even come close to the first edition.

I just do not get the uproar over such little things. Equipment? If you need anything other then guns, (damage given under the W.P. If you need seperate damage for a every hand gun and rifle caliber ever made, take a deep breath and remember its all abstract anyway.) use commen sence. No Ley lines? not as important to psychcs as they are to mages so they do not need to be in the basic book. No magic? Psychics and normal people are suposed to be the primary protagonists so thay are what needs to be in the basic book, magic not so much. I can make a charicter and play a good game with all the info in the book.

Guess you've never read The Adept series by Katherine Kurtz & Deborah Turner Harris. Modern setting, public illusion that nothing weird exists, and it's full of a mixture of psionics and magic. It's stuff to provide lots of ideas for a BtS game, but you need the magic section.

Items? Sure, but common sense will only get you so far. Let's see.....common sense will tell you about a Hand of Glory? I-Ching? The funky devices on Ghostbusters? And a million other occult items that would take the average GM hours of research and probably a visit to a local occult shop just to throw into a game?

Even if you want to dump the mages entirely, you still need ley lines. Where do you think all the random supernatural and evil genius plots are going to take place? Ley lines and nexuses. Speaking of, how are your bad guys/evil geniuses going to summon and bring across all those supernatural entities without magic?

Play a good game? I guess it really depends on your definition of "good game". Now while you personally may feel you can, it seems that a majority of people feel that it cannot. And just looking at it from strictly a business sense - success (and guaranteed additions to the bank account) comes from pleasing a majority of your target audience. And judging from the things said here, Palladium so far hasn't pleased a majority of BtS fans.

[Maryann]

I have written a campaign using the 2nd Edition with absolutely no other books. Granted there is no magic, but non of my players like the magic idea in BTS campaigns. I do see the disappointment to those of you who do like using magic. I guess the more experience one has at GMing Palladium- the easier it is. Maybe that's why I don't see the problems that some do in here. As I've stated so many times before. The book is a stand alone book to play. It's a simple fact. If you want to start adding personal ideas to the book then I can see your arguement, but then again any book written (Palladium or any other) can be considered incomplete. All of us have things that we wish were in books Palladium has printed and that's normal.

Expectations, realistic or not (magic is a very realistic one even though I don't use it often) are just that- expectations. I guess the reason I'm not as disappointed as some others is that I don't "expect" anything. I listen to what's said about a book being written/printed by Palladium and don't expect any more than that. Palladium had said for a long time now that the other 2 sourcebooks will be out after the printing of BTS2. Therefore I was not surprised by this at all. Making this book a good book. However, I think they should have said that they weren't going to put ANY magic in it. They did put a few creatures in the book and I'm glad about that, but I think they should know that a lot of people out there like magic and they should have put it in. So I agree with all of you that this book is incomplete, but there is no basis on this book being not being able to be used without others to support it. The only reason for needing others is for personal needs and wants. I have never had a complaint from any of my players how I GM and I make sure my players have a great time. True I do look things up on the computer for my games, but that's just to keep my players on their toes and the game exciting. I don't need to do it to run a BTS2 game. The reason for people not seeing it as a stand alone book is because of comparing it to the 1st Edition. It is a stand alone book due to the fact that you can make great games and campaigns using this book and this book alone. That's just the reality of it all.

BTS was never meant to be magic based. Kevin never liked the idea of magic in Beyond

[Sentinel]

Okay, so BtS needs two sourcebooks, but I didn't complain about having to buy a Monster Manual and Unearthed Arcanna for D&D, nor about being GM and yet still needing a GMs' guide as well as a Players' Guide.

The difference between the D&D approach and Palladium's is that WotC doesn't make any bones about needing multiple books to play, whereas Palladium sells "complete, stand-alone" games. What's more, WotC has released all of the necessary materials for D&D at one time, whereas Chaos Earth (for example) is still incomplete!

If Palladium came out and said you can't play a game without additional materials, complaints in that regard would die down.

I was more referring to TSR D&D.

[Sentinel]

Maryann wrote:

BTS was never meant to be magic based. Kevin never liked the idea of magic in Beyond

Really? I find that surprising.
So, the only places Kevin wants/wanted magic were PFRPG and Rifts? 'Cause that's what it sounds like (I already know he didn't like magic in HU, and magic isn't a big part of TMNT, Robotech, AtB, or N&SS).

[maasenstodt]

I was more referring to TSR D&D.

I see, but don't understand how some products produced over two decades ago by a company that no longer exists is relevant with regards to completeness to Palladium's current policies or modern RPG production in general.

[Sentinel]

I was more referring to TSR D&D.

I see, but don't understand how some products produced over two decades ago by a company that no longer exists is relevant with regards to completeness to Palladium's current policies or modern RPG production in general.

My point was, it was an accepted practice. A Main Book, and several sourcebooks to support have been the method most used by any game system that goes beyond an initial box set, or book.
GURPS also forces one to purchase a Main Book, and require individual supplements and sourcebooks (Magic, Grimoire, Psionics, come right to my mind).
So, this isn't a new phenomenon, rather, it is the accepted practice (or at least, AN accepted practice).
Since I don't own any WoTC products, I didn't feel qualified to use them in my statement.

[Natalya]

Maryann wrote:

BTS was never meant to be magic based. Kevin never liked the idea of magic in Beyond

Really? I find that surprising.
So, the only places Kevin wants/wanted magic were PFRPG and Rifts? 'Cause that's what it sounds like (I already know he didn't like magic in HU, and magic isn't a big part of TMNT, Robotech, AtB, or N&SS).

I thought that magic became big in the NSS world with the release of MC. ???

[Ekos]

I like BTS-2. I believe(and hoping) the next 2 books will complete it. Then I believe I will like it even more than the original.

The thing I like about Palladium Books is that thier books read more like a story and less like a text book than most number crunching systems.

Problems with BTS-2:
1.) NO EQUIPTMENT : I have enough Guns&ammo mags and plenty of catalogues to fullfil every equiptment need. You can find anything for sell on the internet.

2.) No Magic O.C.C.'s !! This is a biggy. Like I said above I can't wait for the next 2 books.

3.) NO SUPERNATURAL MONSTERS!! Well again I can't wait for the next 2 books.

I don't see myself Game Mastering BTS-2 until the next 2 books come out. But I still do like it. Only thing I really wished they would have put in it is the Random creature generation tables. But then again I do have the original and I do believe I'm smart enough to come up with creatures of my owne, so I just might be GMing this game this weekend after all!!!

[Guest]

Ah yes, the classic "you can do it yourself, you don't need the RPG company to make rules and stats for you" argument.

You are absolutely right. I can create an entire rules set and all the supplementary information I need. I can go out and buy a $6 paperback novel and do it even. Why am I wasting money on RPG books?

[Marcantony]

The original HU didnt have magic. It was added later most reluctantly (according to Kevin says in the intro blurb).
"I personally dislike magic in superhero comic books, so I didnt put it in my game", page 6 of the Revised version.

[Sentinel]

The original HU didnt have magic. It was added later most reluctantly (according to Kevin says in the intro blurb).
"I personally dislike magic in superhero comic books, so I didnt put it in my game", page 6 of the Revised version.

Not very "Unlimited", was it?

[Sureshot]

Okay, so BtS needs two sourcebooks, but I didn't complain about having to buy a Monster Manual and Unearthed Arcanna for D&D, nor about being GM and yet still needing a GMs' guide as well as a Players' Guide.

Why would I complain. I don`t need to buy Unearthed Arcana to run the game. All you need is the Players Guide, DMG and Monster Manaual 1. The other products are optional. Not exactly a fair comparison. Especially when they made no effort to hide that it would take 3 books. Where BTS 2nd edition went from one book to 3 books change at the last possible moment.

Then same cannot be said of BTS 2 or Chaos Earth. Both are missing pieces to make them complete. Nor are the books needed to make them complete coming out right away and they should be.

Actualy I said it was a geeneral attack, my 'E' button sticks..

¨

Your point being? An attack is an attack no matter if your keyboard works or not.

and

Well, maybe you can't......But the rest of us can be creative on our own and do not need Kevin or the rest of the Palladium staff to do our thinking for us. You act as though to do so 'doing it yourself ' would be wrong

If I had the same amount of time to work on a game like I did 10 years I would do everything myself. I no longer have the time nor will I admit the will to do it myself. That is not a bad thing like you make it out to be. Nor is asking for a game designer to come out with all the needed information to properly run a game either.

[Chuck Lang]

[...] All you need is the Players Guide, DMG and Monster Manaual 1. The other products are optional. Not exactly a fair comparison. Especially when they made no effort to hide that it would take 3 books. Where BTS 2nd edition went from one book to 3 books change at the last possible moment.

You still need to buy three books to run a D&D campaign: each book being $30.00 (I have all three and one additional book).

I could've swore we knew about the three books for BTS2 at least a few months ahead of time, didn't we? (Serious question, I don't have the press releases or Rifters with me right now.)

It didn't' come as a surprise to me when magic and monsters weren't included.

Look at the final prices for Tome Grotesque and the Arcanum Sourcebook: $17.95 to $22.95 depending on page count. Sounds to me that they will be pretty substantial books adding quite a bit to the system.

Perhaps a better tactic on Palladium's part would have been to get all three books completed and then release them all at one time, or at least successively with a maximum one month span between releases.

[Sentinel]

[...] All you need is the Players Guide, DMG and Monster Manaual 1. The other products are optional. Not exactly a fair comparison. Especially when they made no effort to hide that it would take 3 books. Where BTS 2nd edition went from one book to 3 books change at the last possible moment.

You still need to buy three books to run a D&D campaign: each book being $30.00 (I have all three and one additional book).

I could've swore we knew about the three books for BTS2 at least a few months ahead of time, didn't we? (Serious question, I don't have the press releases or Rifters with me right now.)

It didn't' come as a surprise to me when magic and monsters weren't included.

Look at the final prices for Tome Grotesque and the Arcanum Sourcebook: $17.95 to $22.95 depending on page count. Sounds to me that they will be pretty substantial books adding quite a bit to the system.

Perhaps a better tactic on Palladium's part would have been to get all three books completed and then release them all at one time, or at least successively with a maximum one month span between releases.

That might have been a good idea: the feeling I got was that they wanted to get the core rules out as quickly as possible, because there were some changes from the way things had been done before (skills for example).

[Chuck Lang]

That might have been a good idea: the feeling I got was that they wanted to get the core rules out as quickly as possible, because there were some changes from the way things had been done before (skills for example).

Yeah, I can understand that. Quick doesn't mean better though; not that I am saying that you are personally inferring this.

I (as a company) would rather have avoided threads such as this one with a timely release.

Foresight is a good thing when it comes to book releases.

[Sentinel]

While a lot of Palladium stuff is late, I am reasonably certain that Big Kev would rather it not be. When you start making promises to people and don't deliver, it makes them think twice about how much they should order/carry from your company.
The frequent delays annoy me to no end sometimes: but I'm sure they give Kevin grey hairs as well. He's the one who has to explain it to the distributers, and so on...

[BigLEE]

He's the one who has to explain it to the distributers, and so on...

The irony is, in his GAMA report KS was complaining about the distributors not having enough stock of BTSv2 to cover their orders or promoting the product. It's a bit hypocritcal of KS to complain about the distributors not doing their jobs, when he isn't doing his by not getting the book out when promised.

[maasenstodt]

While a lot of Palladium stuff is late, I am reasonably certain that Big Kev would rather it not be. When you start making promises to people and don't deliver, it makes them think twice about how much they should order/carry from your company.
The frequent delays annoy me to no end sometimes: but I'm sure they give Kevin grey hairs as well. He's the one who has to explain it to the distributers, and so on...

I think that problem travels down the line as well. My LGS made the decision to stop posting Palladium titles on it's "Coming Soon" releases board because the release dates, at least until something is at the printers, are so unreliable.

I can understand Kevin's decision to release BtS2 earlier than the required supplements from a business standpoint, but from a gamer's view, there's no doubt that this is a frustratingly scattershot approach. Hopefully those sourcebooks won't meet the fate of the Chaos Earth supplements, some of which may never materialize despite Kevin's promises at the game's release.

[Sentinel]

I was just thinking how nice it would be to have a BtS/Chaos Earth campaign sourcebook.

[Sureshot]

You still need to buy three books to run a D&D campaign: each book being $30.00 (I have all three and one additional book).

I could've swore we knew about the three books for BTS2 at least a few months ahead of time, didn't we? (Serious question, I don't have the press releases or Rifters with me right now.)

It didn't' come as a surprise to me when magic and monsters weren't included.

Look at the final prices for Tome Grotesque and the Arcanum Sourcebook: $17.95 to $22.95 depending on page count. Sounds to me that they will be pretty substantial books adding quite a bit to the system.

Perhaps a better tactic on Palladium's part would have been to get all three books completed and then release them all at one time, or at least successively with a maximum one month span between releases.

Either way whether it's for D&D or BTS 2nd edition one still has to purchase 3 books. So one has to still spend the money one way or the other. Granted both Arcanum and Tome Grotesque will be cheaper but one has to remember that the 3 core D&D books are in color and hardcover. It's almost impossible to find cheap hardcovers today. I may be wrong but I have yet to see that.

I do like your suggestion though. It kind of suprise me that Palladium did not think of it themselves.

[Chuck Lang]

I don't care about glossy paper and pretty pictures. That's why I buy Palladium, it's allabout the bang for the buck with me.

I have to agree, for the most part, with what Geronimo 2.0 said.

I was sitting at work today (the LGS) paging through the D&D books while talking to my work mate (also and RPr) and we came to agree it seems that the color, semi-gloss format is just a bit too much. Approximately a 160 page book for Palladium is $14.00 cheeper than the WotC equivalent

Do I care about semi-gloss and color? Not really. It's the setting, content, and rules that I care about (for the most part). And I don't want to pay $14.00 extra for something I don't care for. This is not to say I don't enjoy the D20 rules; nor is this an attack on D20.

I remember when the art was strictly black and white with some blue or magenta art thrown in with maybe a couple color pages. Simple art seems to conjure more freedom and contrast and inspires imagination.

The artwork in the Palladium books have greater artistic rendering and contrast; the art is weighted and balanced. Whereas the covers on WotC books seem to be unbalanced and lack cohesiveness or unity.

I'm getting a bit off topic, but from an artistic standpoint, many of Palladium's books are quite well done. Much of WotC's art is well done also, but its style just doesn't sit right artistically with me for many reasons.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

I liked it. The only thing I have felt was a let down so far was Chaos Earth...and that only because it kept referencing the Rifts equivalent of stuff. And it kept telling me to buy Rifts books to explain the Chaos Earth setting.

BTS2 I find is better than BTS1. So the monsters are in a different book. Big deal. You ever heard of Palladium Fantasy? How about a book called Monsters & Animals? I find that it works better to have the villains and such in a different book.

Throwing my cents in with Rayven here.

[Tinker Dragoon]

But I am dishearted that so many on this forum seem so content to tear it. I wonder why they play palladium if they are unhappy with the products they produce. Nobody I have met in person at the game stores I visit have anything negative to say. Sure we joke about the car rules not being there and what not but nothing loke I have seen here. This is my first visit and I do not think I will be back

It's called feedback, and it comes in both negative and positive flavors. One thing you have to realize about an open forum is that people won't necessarily have the same opinions you do. Instead of complaining that others give negative feedback, just provide some positive feedback of your own.

And by the way, if you think this is bad, it's nothing compared to some of the other RPG message boards out there

[Sureshot]

But I am dishearted that so many on this forum seem so content to tear it. I wonder why they play palladium if they are unhappy with the products they produce. Nobody I have met in person at the game stores I visit have anything negative to say. Sure we joke about the car rules not being there and what not but nothing loke I have seen here. This is my first visit and I do not think I will be back

It's called feedback, and it comes in both negative and positive flavors. One thing you have to realize about an open forum is that people won't necessarily have the same opinions you do. Instead of complaining that others give negative feedback, just provide some positive feedback of your own.

And by the way, if you think this is bad, it's nothing compared to some of the other RPG message boards out there

Exactly. This is an open forum where you will get both positive and negative opinions on games. Why do people insist on always getting one side of an issue?

I think he did. Nothing like constructive critasism. Gee tinker you gave him all kinds of reasons to come back no wonder you are a moderater..

That was not constructuve critism. He basically was unhappy about some of us being unhappy about the game. And that we as consumers have to happy and like the product because he does. Well guess what not all of us like every Palladium product and to expect no to demand to hear only postive commentary is naive. The same I will admit can be said of the opposite.


If you think this forum is bad try going on the Wotc boards. Some of the things written by the balance nutcases make what is written on this board pretty tame. Most of the time when asked for a question they give house rules. Which is nice but that does not answer a question. Granted it's a vocal minority but a very vocal minority. I still shudder to think that some of the players on that board get people in their games. Some of the stuff made my mouth drop.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Instead of complaining that others give negative feedback, just provide some positive feedback of your own.

I think he did.

That he did, followed by the statement that he won't be returning, which is not nearly as helpful as posting a separate topic about what he likes about the game.

----BEGIN RANT----

Every time Palladium has released a new game in recent years there have been topics decrying the game with well-composed and logically sound arguments, which are responded to with inane comments that only people who like the game should be here. Just once I'd like to see those who love a game give as good an argument as those who hate it.

----END RANT----

In summation, if you don't like the negativity in a topic, do something useful like posting a positive rebuttal in a separate topic.

[Sureshot]

Instead of complaining that others give negative feedback, just provide some positive feedback of your own.

I think he did.

That he did, followed by the statement that he won't be returning, which is not nearly as helpful as posting a separate topic about what he likes about the game.

----BEGIN RANT----

Every time Palladium has released a new game in recent years there have been topics decrying the game with well-composed and logically sound arguments, which are responded to with inane comments that only people who like the game should be here. Just once I'd like to see those who love a game give as good an argument as those who hate it.

----END RANT----

In summation, if you don't like the negativity in a topic, do something useful like posting a positive rebuttal in a separate topic.

Well said Tinker Dragoon.

[maasenstodt]

Every time Palladium has released a new game in recent years there have been topics decrying the game with well-composed and logically sound arguments, which are responded to with inane comments that only people who like the game should be here. Just once I'd like to see those who love a game give as good an argument as those who hate it.

Well stated. I'd only add that the problem is not limited to topic discussing newly released games. On almost any topic where Kevin & Co.'s decisions are questioned, there you will find those who I'd liken to Palladium fundamentalists, unwilling to admit any possibility of error regardless of the evidence presented.

[Beelzebozo]

Agreed, Tinker.

[Gallahan]

Can't we all just be friends and maybe... roleplay?

C'mon... It's all just a game, and guidelines... and each book (BTS1 & BTS2) can be tailored and combined into your own style of game. I mean, after all is said and done, it's your STORY that wins out at the end of the day when the fat lady sings, or is dismembered by that ghoul hiding behind the mannequin under the stairwell, right?

The point is to use what you like (accentuate the positive) and cast away or modify what'cha don't like (downplay the negative). I mean, no one is going to monitor how you use the books. Unless you're playing in a top secret government facility or something.

Just some thoughts from a mere Wanderer. But hey, Conan wandered too, right?