Quality in Rifts...back on the air!

[Braden Campbell]

I do believe that I am the only survivour of the Quality in Rifts board to come here anymore.

Long story short, the board is back in action...well...back on the web anyways. Please fell free to drop by and view it. Read the first act of my Rifts play, laugh at the Rifts Inconsistancies, behold the mostly complete Rifts Timeline.

http://spleen.mearcair.net/rifts/rifts.htm

[Rimmerdal]

you took the same aproach we came up with..neat...I'm not the only one who thinks a little tune would help...

[Rex]

Good to see it back. I really missed the site.


I read the piece by Coffin, that really explains a lot.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

great to see it back

[Scooter the Outlaw]

Wow, that is an awesome site! You have some really cool tidbits and articles on there. I like it a lot and will probably spend some time browsing around in the future. I especially appreciate the approach; instead of intricate numbers and stats, it's just good reading material.

[Kelorin]

That which was lost, has been regained. The return as prophesized has come to pass.

Seriously though, I'm very happy to see Quality in Rifts back online. Long live the site!

[Dustin Fireblade]

You have a darn good site there, John Stevens I think pointed me to it originally. Anyway got it as a favorite again. Keep up the good work.

[Guest]

That all said, my ego demands that I ask you spread the new address around, because I want to reclaim my #2 slot on Google's search results for "Rifts".

pete

That's better than I'll ever get for my site, I get topped out by dead sites and sites that only have links to my site.

[grandmaster z0b]

great site especially as most of it is palladium bashing
I'm just kidding

There's a big difference between criticising and slander. I think it's important for sites, magazines etc. to question a companies products and even the way it's run. I mean we are the people that pay their bills, we are also the ones who have to put up with promised books constantly coming out late if at all.

I do think the Bill Coffin article is probably too personal about KS however it is his right to speak it, even if only half the things he says are true.

I wonder if KS still doesn't use a computer with desktop publishing for the books. Also some things Bill says would explain why there are inconsistantcies between books, why things almost never get out on time and why there is a lot of cutting and pasting.

[AlexM]

great site especially as most of it is palladium bashing
I'm just kidding

There's a big difference between criticising and slander. I think it's important for sites, magazines etc. to question a companies products and even the way it's run. I mean we are the people that pay their bills, we are also the ones who have to put up with promised books constantly coming out late if at all.

I do think the Bill Coffin article is probably too personal about KS however it is his right to speak it, even if only half the things he says are true.

I wonder if KS still doesn't use a computer with desktop publishing for the books. Also some things Bill says would explain why there are inconsistantcies between books, why things almost never get out on time and why there is a lot of cutting and pasting.

There was a time when companies posted announcements and interested people would wait to see what happened. Any comments by anyone not involved in the day to day operations of the company likely do not know the current state of affairs here. A lot of things are not explained since our competitors also read these boards and they are keen to know what our plans are. This is done in the interest of fair competition.



Alex M

[Maryann]

I wasn't going to say anything but I can't resist. Quality in Rifts has always been about bashing Palladium, Kev and the people who work at Palladium. Its never been fair or unbiased

[Maryann]

I felt the Coffin comments were relevant because no one else who ever walked away from Palladium was chatting about it. It offered insight that no non-employee would likely get. If he had posted two long messages on the thread about how great it was and gave us some behind-the-scenes details, I would have posted that too. It's to get that look behind the wall, so to speak.


pete

Be careful what you believe from a disgruntled former employee. I could say more about Bill's "story" but well he is a creative writer ...

and I've been asked to keep my trap shut, so I will...

[Danger]

If you read a little more closely, I said I don't like the system. The Palladium mechanics are pretty bad. You personally may disagree, but rarely have I ever heard anyone go on about the ease and the joy of using Palladium mechanics. The setting and ideas behind it, I love.

Yep. Gotta agree here. Rifts game mechanics are pretty poor; I'm hardpressed to think of one that's worse, honestly. But, so what? Many many other games suffer from shoddy design as well. Does that mean that you cannot have fun playing them? I tend to try to overlook the flaws, as I try to enjoy the game, setting, and fellowship of players more than I try to stress about how stinko the system is. And, I like the background & setting of Rifts.

Also, I like to think of myself as being a loyal customer of Palladium, having first been introduced to the company when they published *gasp* Robotech. (I know, this might seem to be an alien concept to many people)

But I came out of a dfisgruntled batch of players who were tired of getting more and more toybooks (NGR and its sourcebook were the first major culprits), and wanted more world information. That's the genesis of the page - expanding, not wholesale revising.

Here I must disagree. Palladium & D20 are VERY WISE in providing new goodies en masse in nearly every book they put out. In fact, it is nothing short of sheer genius. Why? Because as much as many people may try to deny, that's what players want. This is what sells books, and makes money. Period. This is among the main reasons that D&D and Palladium have been around for as long as they have.

There have been other games that tried to put out strictly world background books, and guess what? They didn't sell. Example: Earthdawn, by FASA. The game didn't have enough stuff. They put out TOO many story books, without any other kind of content for the game (or very little, if any). Not enough monsters, magic items, weapons, gear, etc. Earthdawn was a game with alot of potential, but unfortunately, the company in my opinion, took it in the wrong direction. As a result, it failed.

I would almost wager that SoT is among the least selling series in RIFTS because most of it is just story. It certainly seems to be among the most hated supplements, just from viewing the posts on the boards.

Well, there *are* too many holes, inconsistencies and blah blah blah. If you played pure Rifts canon, your head would explode.

There are, this is true. Most people have to resort to House Rules to some degree, however minor.

Have never seen nor heard of the site, but I'll visit to see what the hubbub is about.

[Maryann]

I would almost wager that SoT is among the least selling series in RIFTS because most of it is just story. It certainly seems to be among the most hated supplements, just from viewing the posts on the boards.

You would lose that wager. Just because a few "vocal" people on message boards didn't like SOT doesn't mean it wasn't popular. It was (and is) a very popular series.

[Dr. Doom III]

You would lose that wager. Just because a few "vocal" people on message boards didn't like SOT doesn't mean it wasn't popular. It was (and is) a very popular series.

Is that based on sales?
Since I know a lot of people who bought all the books in the series and still didn't care for it.

[Maryann]

You would lose that wager. Just because a few "vocal" people on message boards didn't like SOT doesn't mean it wasn't popular. It was (and is) a very popular series.

Is that based on sales?
Since I know a lot of people who bought all the books in the series and still didn't care for it.

Actually its based on feedback that Palladium received in letter form and feedback at conventions, in person face to face, people tend to lose the backbone they have on the internet when they have to look at someone in the face. Now mind you my data is almost three years old so in three years its possible the naysayers may have decided to write letters and confront the guys at conventions, but I seriously doubt it.

[Danger]

I would almost wager that SoT is among the least selling series in RIFTS because most of it is just story. It certainly seems to be among the most hated supplements, just from viewing the posts on the boards.

You would lose that wager. Just because a few "vocal" people on message boards didn't like SOT doesn't mean it wasn't popular. It was (and is) a very popular series.

Which is why I said almost.

As for myself, I only own one of the books (SoT4), and haven't either had the funds or need to purchase the others (it hasn't been a focus of any of our RIFTS games). It's true that it's hard to judge the popularity or sales of a book based off of these boards, as you only really get the more vocal players here. The silent masses who may have purchased it are just that: silent.

[Danger]

You would lose that wager. Just because a few "vocal" people on message boards didn't like SOT doesn't mean it wasn't popular. It was (and is) a very popular series.

Is that based on sales?
Since I know a lot of people who bought all the books in the series and still didn't care for it.

Actually its based on feedback that Palladium received in letter form and feedback at conventions, in person face to face, people tend to lose the backbone they have on the internet when they have to look at someone in the face. Now mind you my data is almost three years old so in three years its possible the naysayers may have decided to write letters and confront the guys at conventions, but I seriously doubt it.

People do tend to favor the anonymity of the internet, yep.

Again, my statement was derived from viewing the posts on this board, not by actual statistics of sales or customer satisfaction polls.

[Subjugator]

I wasn't going to say anything but I can't resist. Quality in Rifts has always been about bashing Palladium, Kev and the people who work at Palladium. Its never been fair or unbiased

Hi Maryann,



I've got to say, I absolutely adore Palladium/Rifts books, and don't have any history with Quality in Rifts. I'll tell you what I agree with though...

I can deal with errata (I work 'em in somehow). I can deal with inconsistencies (I have a fundamental understanding of the rules and have my own rules too, so it's NBD). I can deal with typos. I can deal with slipped schedules.

Here's what's really eating me:

I want more story in my Rifts books. I want to know more about the area. I want to know more about the people. I want gangs, cities, vendors, political powers, and influential people defined. In short, I want The Vampire Kingdoms. That was and is my absolute favorite book. I have a fundamental understanding of the *feel* of that area. That book is beautiful, has few toys, but LORD does it have flavor!

Also, it's a simple request, and I don't know how to inform Kevin (Mr. Siembieda?) of what I want...but I want...I *WANT* Chi-Town. I want flavor text! I want descriptions of different levels, of which scum sell lives, and which saints save them!

I guess my real question is:

Where do I send a letter that he'll get and read? It's not an angry letter...I'm not bashing Palladium (LORD no...check out my order history and you'll see...I own at least one copy of every Rifts book made (and in many cases two...I own three main books) and have purchased two copies of Ultimate Rifts), but I would like to communicate what I want to the powers that be.

As far as the rest...I read the Coffin posts, and I'm sorry that he and KS are no longer friends. It sounds like an old friendship went sour because two people lost their tempers and said some things that maybe should have been said when they had cooled down...maybe had they done so that wouldn't have happened. Ultimately though, it's none of my business.

Subbie

[Maryann]

Getting a letter to Palladium is easy:

Palladium Books, Inc.
Attn: Kevin Siembieda
12455 Universal Dr.
Taylor, MI 48180

Kevin reads all letters address to him that are of the tone "you suck for the following reasons". Constructive critisim is and always has been welcome.

[slappy]

Quality in Rifts seems to be pretty hypercritical. It's kind of like complaining about the sound effects in the Star Wars space battles. Who cares if there is no sound in space. The sound helps build the atmosphere.

By the way, I loved SoT, so rail away.

[slappy]

I really like the expansion material. I probably should have started with that, but what hit me first was the way you layed out your site. You seem like a fan, but sometimes not. You start off with hammering away at Palladium and then get into your material. Which is some good stuff.

One of the things I've always liked about Palladium is that it is open enough to inspire your own imagination, much like it did with you. Rather than just giving you a fixed culture set to adapt your own style to. I think your site is almost proof of what works with their style, but I must admit that their own rules often contradict. Of course, you should understand with the sheer amount of material you've written that your own style and ideas often change compared to something you originally did.

[Dr. Doom III]

Actually its based on feedback that Palladium received in letter form and feedback at conventions, in person face to face, people tend to lose the backbone they have on the internet when they have to look at someone in the face. Now mind you my data is almost three years old so in three years its possible the naysayers may have decided to write letters and confront the guys at conventions, but I seriously doubt it.

In other words people are nicer in person and don't truly speak their mind in case they might offend and on a message board where they are anonymous they feel free to vent their true feelings.
Makes sense.

[Maryann]

Actually its based on feedback that Palladium received in letter form and feedback at conventions, in person face to face, people tend to lose the backbone they have on the internet when they have to look at someone in the face. Now mind you my data is almost three years old so in three years its possible the naysayers may have decided to write letters and confront the guys at conventions, but I seriously doubt it.

In other words people are nicer in person and don't truly speak their mind in case they might offend and on a message board where they are anonymous they feel free to vent their true feelings.
Makes sense.

Actually I like to think of it as they don't let their Alligator Ass override their Hummingbird Brains. In other words people tend to be more articulate in person rather than just shooting off their mouths cause no one can call them on it online other than in type.

[Jesterzzn]

Actually its based on feedback that Palladium received in letter form and feedback at conventions, in person face to face, people tend to lose the backbone they have on the internet when they have to look at someone in the face. Now mind you my data is almost three years old so in three years its possible the naysayers may have decided to write letters and confront the guys at conventions, but I seriously doubt it.

In other words people are nicer in person and don't truly speak their mind in case they might offend and on a message board where they are anonymous they feel free to vent their true feelings.
Makes sense.

Actually I like to think of it as they don't let their Alligator Ass override their Hummingbird Brains. In other words people tend to be more articulate in person rather than just shooting off their mouths cause no one can call them on it online other than in type.

I'm still not clear. You are saying that people are jerks on the internet because there are no direct repercussions, so the in person feedback is more honest and accurate?

[Maryann]

Actually its based on feedback that Palladium received in letter form and feedback at conventions, in person face to face, people tend to lose the backbone they have on the internet when they have to look at someone in the face. Now mind you my data is almost three years old so in three years its possible the naysayers may have decided to write letters and confront the guys at conventions, but I seriously doubt it.

In other words people are nicer in person and don't truly speak their mind in case they might offend and on a message board where they are anonymous they feel free to vent their true feelings.
Makes sense.

Actually I like to think of it as they don't let their Alligator Ass override their Hummingbird Brains. In other words people tend to be more articulate in person rather than just shooting off their mouths cause no one can call them on it online other than in type.

I'm still not clear. You are saying that people are jerks on the internet because there are no direct repercussions, so the in person feedback is more honest and accurate?

I think people think more about what they're going to say when they have to say it to your face. They don't just shoot their mouths off cause they can and because it makes them feel superior.

[Jesterzzn]

I think people think more about what they're going to say when they have to say it to your face. They don't just shoot their mouths off cause they can and because it makes them feel superior.

Okay, but I don't think that makes what they say more honest and true to their actual thoughts. I think it just means that people are more polite in person. Most people are far more shy in real life than on the internet, few would argue with you on that.

[Mudang]

I find many of the house rules on this site to be clunkier than what palladium has printed.

[Jesterzzn]

I find many of the house rules on this site to be clunkier than what palladium has printed.

Except for your own house rules, right?

[Mudang]

I find many of the house rules on this site to be clunkier than what palladium has printed.

Except for your own house rules, right?

None of my house rules are on that site.

[Jesterzzn]

I find many of the house rules on this site to be clunkier than what palladium has printed.

Except for your own house rules, right?

None of my house rules are on that site.

When you said "this" site, I thought you were refering to the boards. That what I get for not going back and rereading the thread before responding.

[Subjugator]

Getting a letter to Palladium is easy:

Palladium Books, Inc.
Attn: Kevin Siembieda
12455 Universal Dr.
Taylor, MI 48180

Kevin reads all letters address to him that are of the tone "you suck for the following reasons". Constructive critisim is and always has been welcome.

Thanks very much! I'm writing it now...though I'm not going to say the books suck...it's just that I think they can be better.

Sub

[Subjugator]

Here is something else that bears saying, because I've not seen anyone say it here...but this is THE dominant fact in role playing.

RULES EXIST ONLY TO PROVIDE A FRAMEWORK FOR THE FUN OF A ROLE PLAYING EXPERIENCE. TO A GOOD GM AND PLAYER GROUP THEY SHOULD BE NIGH ON INVISIBLE TO THE GAMEPLAY!

Erick Wujcik understood this beautifully when he made the...err...diceless RPG that I don't know if I'm allowed to mention by name but that all hopefully understand of what I speak. Anyway, within the scope of that game, there are no dice. There's a reason - in a perfect world, roleplayers don't need dice.

Anyway - don't gripe about the rules - just make them fit whatever your needs are for the moment. The rules are not the game, and if they get in the way of what you need to do, just change them. It's what I do every time something inconvenient comes up.

As far as I'm concerned, I've spent about two grand building my Palladium Books collection (about 6' from edge to edge if they're stacked next to each other) not because of the rules (which, by the way, are fine for me...I fix 'em when I have a problem), but because Palladium produces GREAT worlds with GREAT ideas and COOL NPCs with INCREDIBLE weapon ideas! They give me the REAL structure...a world to play in...with things that I really do need...the rules are invisible, it's the idea food that I need, and I get my fix from Palladium regularly on that score. There are problems - power creep, inconsistencies, and the like, but Palladium has panache like nobody's business, and I'll continue buying their books until they're done with the panache.

Sub

[Jesterzzn]

Anyway - don't gripe about the rules - just make them fit whatever your needs are for the moment. The rules are not the game, and if they get in the way of what you need to do, just change them. It's what I do every time something inconvenient comes up.
Sub

I really hope that the arguments that take place on these boards (including the ones made by yours truly) are not also made during the playing of the game. If you (not you subjugator, but "you" as in whoever) as a player feel the need to argue every detail with your GM while playing the game, please stop. But its still fun to argue on these boards, hell, sometimes I just take the opposite side of the one most people seem to agree with, even though I too agree with them.

[Subjugator]

Anyway - don't gripe about the rules - just make them fit whatever your needs are for the moment. The rules are not the game, and if they get in the way of what you need to do, just change them. It's what I do every time something inconvenient comes up.
Sub

I really hope that the arguments that take place on these boards (including the ones made by yours truly) are not also made during the playing of the game. If you (not you subjugator, but "you" as in whoever) as a player feel the need to argue every detail with your GM while playing the game, please stop. But its still fun to argue on these boards, hell, sometimes I just take the opposite side of the one most people seem to agree with, even though I too agree with them.

I change the rules secretly...I don't tell 'em about it...they might argue then. So my lizard mage has more PPE than normal, or my magot is immune to ionizing radiation instead of fire/heat...it just depends on what I need for the moment.

[Braden Campbell]

It might also be important to note that a lot of the constructive ideas were hashed out on the Quality in Rifts message board...but it has been long since taken over by spambots and viagra offers.

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/QualityInRifts/

(I would give the link some neat name...but I've forgotten how to do that at the moment...)

You can look through the old archives to see what I mean. My essay on Toasters and the Technology of Rifts is still there...one of my favourites.

[Pox]

I was going to initially write a lengthy post on how much I am mad about this whole entire thread but have decided to trash it thanks to some advice I requested. I will use some of what I said in that other reply but without the screaming.

The meat of my rant was somewhat focused on the fact that this message board is Palladium property and as such is as much an advertising tool for Their (and by their, read as KS since he IS palladium) product (be it Rifts, Nightspawn, robotech, whatever) as much as any magazine ad. For people to come to their board and openly slam the board that they pay for is annoying to me. It is the internet not America (I am an American) there is no freedom of speech here...just money and data.

Another thing that got my attention is the fact that so many people complain about how "broken" the system is. That is odd that I as a seven year old can comprehend and have satisfying battles and role-playing experiences and now twenty years later...still have no trouble, but that is just me. That may just be I have a better comprehention of the system or have not muddled it up by playing other companies products and put myself in a rut (FYI...I used to play AD&D and marvel superheroes, but that was ages ago)

Lastly, I find it funny and kind of a catch-22 about flavor text in geographic circumstances. When PB(KS and a few others) doesn't put "enough" flavor text in...people complain about it. When they do add places and population numbers and all kinds of goodies to shut those before mentioned people up...other people (including a few of the ones that were supposed to be satisfied) still complain due to lack of accuracy or some little thing that made that part of the world special that was forgotten (hell...look at how many Aussies didn't find their Australia to their liking). The problem that I see pop in this situation is that Coming of the Rifts happened in the final years of the 21st century, not tomorrow or yesterday, but almost a hundred years from now...so statistics of current day Earth are irrelavent.

That is all I am going to say for now, since I am starting to get worked up again and will revert to openly b(&?hing about things and I don't want that...take what I said however you want.

[Braden Campbell]

I was going to initially write a lengthy post on how much I am mad about this whole entire thread but have decided to trash it thanks to some advice I requested. I will use some of what I said in that other reply but without the screaming...

OK...

I put this thread up so I could let people know that a web site that was very dear to my heart was back at last, not to create havoc and riots amoung the populace.

Secondly, if you delve into the site at all, or read through the archived message board, you will find out that most of the QiR members tossed about constructive ideas that we felt would fill continuity holes, add more depth to the background, act as adventrue hooks, and whatnot. Members who did nothing but bash, bash, bash, never lasted long. We complained becasue we loved the Rifts setting and all of its incredible potential for role playing...they complained because they liked complaining.

Thirdly, Pox, I GMed Rifts since its release in 1990 (until 2002 when I got married and had a baby...) that's 12 years of experience running the game...probably over 600 seperate gaming sessions. And you know what I found out in all that time? I found that there were aspects of the basic design that made no snese or just did not work for me...moreover, I found out that I wasn't alone in my concerns or problems. There are handguns that can dish out as much damage as the giant cannons on the Abolisher. If you do not think that is a game mechanic that should, at the very least, be disscussed with other players and GMs, then I envy you.

Folks, if you want to read some interesting essays and reviews on most of the Rifts line, drop on by. If you think we complain too much, or are just talking out of our butts, don't go see the site.

Here endeth the lesson.

[Maryann]

I was going to initially write a lengthy post on how much I am mad about this whole entire thread but have decided to trash it thanks to some advice I requested. I will use some of what I said in that other reply but without the screaming...

OK...

I put this thread up so I could let people know that a web site that was very dear to my heart was back at last, not to create havoc and riots amoung the populace.

Secondly, if you delve into the site at all, or read through the archived message board, you will find out that most of the QiR members tossed about constructive ideas that we felt would fill continuity holes, add more depth to the background, act as adventrue hooks, and whatnot. Members who did nothing but bash, bash, bash, never lasted long. We complained becasue we loved the Rifts setting and all of its incredible potential for role playing...they complained because they liked complaining.

Thirdly, Pox, I GMed Rifts since its release in 1990 (until 2002 when I got married and had a baby...) that's 12 years of experience running the game...probably over 600 seperate gaming sessions. And you know what I found out in all that time? I found that there were aspects of the basic design that made no snese or just did not work for me...moreover, I found out that I wasn't alone in my concerns or problems. There are handguns that can dish out as much damage as the giant cannons on the Abolisher. If you do not think that is a game mechanic that should, at the very least, be disscussed with other players and GMs, then I envy you.

Folks, if you want to read some interesting essays and reviews on most of the Rifts line, drop on by. If you think we complain too much, or are just talking out of our butts, don't go see the site.

Here endeth the lesson.

Sorry Braden I've read a lot of whats over there, 99% of it isn't constructive at all, its bashing and insulting. Maybe my idea of constructive is just different than yours, I don't know, but the "essays and reviews" were pretty scathing.

[Pox]

I was going to initially write a lengthy post on how much I am mad about this whole entire thread but have decided to trash it thanks to some advice I requested. I will use some of what I said in that other reply but without the screaming...

OK...

I put this thread up so I could let people know that a web site that was very dear to my heart was back at last, not to create havoc and riots amoung the populace.

Secondly, if you delve into the site at all, or read through the archived message board, you will find out that most of the QiR members tossed about constructive ideas that we felt would fill continuity holes, add more depth to the background, act as adventrue hooks, and whatnot. Members who did nothing but bash, bash, bash, never lasted long. We complained becasue we loved the Rifts setting and all of its incredible potential for role playing...they complained because they liked complaining.

Thirdly, Pox, I GMed Rifts since its release in 1990 (until 2002 when I got married and had a baby...) that's 12 years of experience running the game...probably over 600 seperate gaming sessions. And you know what I found out in all that time? I found that there were aspects of the basic design that made no snese or just did not work for me...moreover, I found out that I wasn't alone in my concerns or problems. There are handguns that can dish out as much damage as the giant cannons on the Abolisher. If you do not think that is a game mechanic that should, at the very least, be disscussed with other players and GMs, then I envy you.

Folks, if you want to read some interesting essays and reviews on most of the Rifts line, drop on by. If you think we complain too much, or are just talking out of our butts, don't go see the site.

Here endeth the lesson.

I understand why you put this thread up...doesn't mean I like it or think it is right to get a piggy-back for the site's popularity from Palladium as you stick the knife in its back while you are there...but that's just me and my opinion.

I know that there is insufficient amount of data about locations to people out there which you seem to be one of, but the whole concept of Rifts, and this is just my opinion, is it is MY world as a GM to create and sculpt. If whatever you have on your website is your vision of Rifts and you want to just use it as a resource for whatever D20 crap...whatever, but don't expect me to sit by while you trash the intellectual property of a man who has spent 20+ years writing and inspiring the imaginations of thousands and many generations of players lightly.

and when you can point out a handgun that can shoot 2d4x10 in a single shot (no ridiculous burst rules) 6000 ft. while simutaneously providing 590 M.D.C. and full sensor coverage and environmental protection (that isn't something Carella put out), I might give that one to you.

When the whole argument about the power of firearms vs. vehicular weapons, I always laugh since no one seems to step back and look at how much damage as the only thing that matters...there is range, payload, and protection that should ALWAYS be considered. But if firepower is all some think makes a good weapon...so be it, its their game.

[Subjugator]

I was going to initially write a lengthy post on how much I am mad about this whole entire thread but have decided to trash it thanks to some advice I requested. I will use some of what I said in that other reply but without the screaming.

The meat of my rant was somewhat focused on the fact that this message board is Palladium property and as such is as much an advertising tool for Their (and by their, read as KS since he IS palladium) product (be it Rifts, Nightspawn, robotech, whatever) as much as any magazine ad. For people to come to their board and openly slam the board that they pay for is annoying to me. It is the internet not America (I am an American) there is no freedom of speech here...just money and data.

Another thing that got my attention is the fact that so many people complain about how "broken" the system is. That is odd that I as a seven year old can comprehend and have satisfying battles and role-playing experiences and now twenty years later...still have no trouble, but that is just me. That may just be I have a better comprehention of the system or have not muddled it up by playing other companies products and put myself in a rut (FYI...I used to play AD&D and marvel superheroes, but that was ages ago)

Lastly, I find it funny and kind of a catch-22 about flavor text in geographic circumstances. When PB(KS and a few others) doesn't put "enough" flavor text in...people complain about it. When they do add places and population numbers and all kinds of goodies to shut those before mentioned people up...other people (including a few of the ones that were supposed to be satisfied) still complain due to lack of accuracy or some little thing that made that part of the world special that was forgotten (hell...look at how many Aussies didn't find their Australia to their liking). The problem that I see pop in this situation is that Coming of the Rifts happened in the final years of the 21st century, not tomorrow or yesterday, but almost a hundred years from now...so statistics of current day Earth are irrelavent.

That is all I am going to say for now, since I am starting to get worked up again and will revert to openly b(&?hing about things and I don't want that...take what I said however you want.

Uhh...let's address the meat of the issue first:

You will never satisfy 100% of the people 100% of the time. It's axiomatic that someone will almost always complain.

Now - I didn't bash Palladium (I'm a zealot for cripes sake! Hehe...), but I do wish that there were some things that are different, and I will ask for what I want. What's the problem with that? I'm a customer...I spend a lot of money with the company (it's a lot for me anyway...I'm sure I'm not a big client for them, but I'm a client nonetheless). I'm sure they're interested to a certain degree in what I have to say.

The one time I met KS, he was a nice guy and didn't laugh at me openly for gaping like an unlettered fool. He signed one of the movie shirts for me and was even glad that I'd bought a couple of used Palladium books...despite the fact that he didn't profit directly from the purchase of a used book. I'm not bashing him...heck, I'm not even intruding on his personal life.

Anyway, the books are good, but I think they could be better (for me). I don't gripe about the errors when compared to modern life or anything like that. I just want more flavor is all.

Then again, maybe I'm not the one you were mad at. <G>

Sub

[Danger]

I find it very hard to enjoy the setting when, for instance, it takes us four hours to do a five on five combat, by the book.

Alot of games have that problem. Seriously. Don't get me started on games like Champions (which I love). You shouldn't give up on a system just because a combat took too long. Maybe you should look at it this way:

How can you streamline the combat? Is it purely people not knowing the rules (or arguing the rules), and having to look everything up every action that is slowing it down? Are players (or the GM) taking too long to decide on their actions? Are you trying to make it overly complex? And so on...

I certainly can overlook flaws for a good enough game (see: setting of Shadowrun), but there comes a point when such things are overwhelming. About all I will say about it is this - the Palladium core system needs revamping. It really, really does. There is almost no aspect of it which is not bent severely or broken.

You and I both agree on this.

The inverse of what you said below is, "There have been some amazing games with great settings who have been killed by bad systems." The fact that Rifts - the setting - is great enough to survive its terrible mechanics shows what a good property they have. I just wish they would do something about it.

This is also quite true. There have been many interesting games that were ruined by a terrible system. It often amazes me that RIFTS has survived as long as it has using their current mechanics. It strikes me as more of an attitude of 'If it ain't broke...'.

Or maybe they just feel that it would be more of a hassle than it's worth. They'd have to hire writers to revamp everything, then play test, then cross their fingers & hope that the final product is acceptable to the fans. All of this is time and money based on the chance that it might be even partly as successful as the original.

I know that they've avoided putting out a 2nd Edition Rifts because they were afraid that they might lose their fan base. I don't agree with that, but then again, I'm not the one doing this for a living. As a pure business move, maybe it is wiser to leave things alone to a certain extent.

I don't consider myself "disloyal" for what the page contains. In fact, I have purchased every single book since I found PFRPG (although I sold my N&SS stuff), and every single Rifts book through Aftermath. After Aftermath (ha ha), I was so apathetic about it that I decided I would no longer firsthand purchase Rifts books (I am still hopeful for Nightbane, which I came late to), but only secondhand or accept donations of Rifts books other people wanted to get rid of.

If something as mundane as "purchasing power" was credit for loyalty, I'd have stock in the company, because it would have been cheaper. It's the fact that there is so much potential there that keeps me glued to it.

I wasn't implying that you were disloyal because of the page (again I haven't read or looked at it). I feel that just because you've bought a game book doesn't mean that you have to take everything as scripture. That's what creative freedom is all about. Some other people seem to feel otherwise.

Sadly, that is true. I acknowledge wholeheartedly that Palladium is a business. Somewhere on my page, I acknowledge that, and state very openly that if I have a family to feed, I'll put out any ol' **** I can pack into a book. I am lucky enough not to do it for a living, and I understand the whims of the market. I always sort of jokingly said that Palladium's books sell so consistently well over twenty years because there is always a large demographic of boys 12-15. *smile*

Or men who act like they're 12-15.

I am not even talking about eliminating the toys, anyway. I have nothing against toys, I quite like them. But surely in between the 40+ books the line has put out, they might have put out ONE "Rifts Atlas" sort of thing? Or cut the comic from NGR and push the background information on the area to a whopping 50 pages? The rest of the book would be unchanged. If you look at the ratio of toys to background in pre-SoT books, I'd be willing to bet it might peak out at about 70:30, on a good day.

There are certain things that should be fleshed out. Would it happen at the expense of eliminating toys as you put it? Who can say? I, like you, do enjoy seeing new things, and as a comic & art fan, I also enjoy seeing new & original pieces in the books. I wouldn't want to have plain history text that drones on & on without something to break up the monotony.

Anyway, I think if the setting is very strong, it perseveres. Say what you will about White Wolf, but they had a solid market for a long time based on depth of setting and downplaying mechanics. It *can* be done. But of course, they had scores and scores of writers and multiple developers, compared to Palladium's eternal one developer. Did this cause some havoc between editions? Yes. But were the lines kept relatively fresh and dynamic? Yes.

True, but White Wolf was not without adding their own 'toys' into most books either. Many Clanbooks had their own merits, flaws, magical items, etc. Also, important difference here. The books that White Wolf tended to put out directly influenced the way that the game was perceived & characters were played. Again, the Clan books as an example. These gave insights on activities, politics, powers, personalities, and suggestions on how to play a certain character. It's quite another thing to have a history book that reads like stereo instructions.

Say what you will about the story, I will agree, but the basic format - a lot of text, helpful material - did well. It was the fact that it ran over six books when it could have been done in two or three that I think honked people off, more than the content proper. Heck, the "metaplot information" in book three was crammed to TWO PAGES, and the Cybetr-Knight book shouldn't have even been in the series at all. If Palladium was really good, they would have reserved a section for disgruntled metaplot fans who wanted Tolkeen to win (or stalemate). Metaplot is always like handling fire (ask White Wolf), but I was impressed enough that the Rifts world evovled and changed in a significant way, because I've always been under the belief that canon Rifts was designed such that PCs could win little victories but the setting would essentially remain the same.

I like the Cyber Knight book, but yes. I don't see why they put it in the SoT series.

[slappy]

As I noted above, given the volume of books published, I doubt ONE SINGLE SOLITARY BOOK on the topic of culture, politics, and religion (where the heck did religion go? spirituality is a major fact of life for over 70% of the planet).

You got to admit, trying to fictionalize religion has a pretty good chance of pissing people off. That's one where it is usually best to avoid the subject all together in our overly-sensitive culture.

[Danger]

I was going to initially write a lengthy post on how much I am mad about this whole entire thread but have decided to trash it thanks to some advice I requested. I will use some of what I said in that other reply but without the screaming.

The meat of my rant was somewhat focused on the fact that this message board is Palladium property and as such is as much an advertising tool for Their (and by their, read as KS since he IS palladium) product (be it Rifts, Nightspawn, robotech, whatever) as much as any magazine ad. For people to come to their board and openly slam the board that they pay for is annoying to me. It is the internet not America (I am an American) there is no freedom of speech here...just money and data.

Another thing that got my attention is the fact that so many people complain about how "broken" the system is. That is odd that I as a seven year old can comprehend and have satisfying battles and role-playing experiences and now twenty years later...still have no trouble, but that is just me. That may just be I have a better comprehention of the system or have not muddled it up by playing other companies products and put myself in a rut (FYI...I used to play AD&D and marvel superheroes, but that was ages ago)

Lastly, I find it funny and kind of a catch-22 about flavor text in geographic circumstances. When PB(KS and a few others) doesn't put "enough" flavor text in...people complain about it. When they do add places and population numbers and all kinds of goodies to shut those before mentioned people up...other people (including a few of the ones that were supposed to be satisfied) still complain due to lack of accuracy or some little thing that made that part of the world special that was forgotten (hell...look at how many Aussies didn't find their Australia to their liking). The problem that I see pop in this situation is that Coming of the Rifts happened in the final years of the 21st century, not tomorrow or yesterday, but almost a hundred years from now...so statistics of current day Earth are irrelavent.

That is all I am going to say for now, since I am starting to get worked up again and will revert to openly b(&?hing about things and I don't want that...take what I said however you want.

Dude, this is a board to discuss, give opinions, and all other things that are Palladium. Not everyone is going to be agreeable, or post things that are going to be all sunshine & rainbows all the time. That's just the way it is.

Actually there is more freedom of speech on the internet, mostly due to the lack of universal laws that control what information can be put out there.

The game mechanics of RIFTS could use some work. The different aspects are one of the more frequently discussed topics on the boards here. No one is saying that the game completely sucks because the system needs some fixing. Well, at least not that I've read thus far. There are many reasons to enjoy playing RIFTS; I don't play it because of the mechanics. I like my character, the world, and the setting. (edit: I do also find some guilty pleasures in the system as it is written as well)

I agree that 'you can't please all of the people all of the time' with the history or flavor text, whichever you want to call it. Not to mention that when that sort of text does find its way to print, people are always going to complain that it doesn't fit their own personal vision of the way that places should be described, or events should have unfolded. Possibly that's a reason that some things have been left undetailed. This does, really, give alot of creative freedom to the GMs, who can detail out things as they see fit.

[Danger]

As I noted above, given the volume of books published, I doubt ONE SINGLE SOLITARY BOOK on the topic of culture, politics, and religion (where the heck did religion go? spirituality is a major fact of life for over 70% of the planet).

You got to admit, trying to fictionalize religion has a pretty good chance of pissing people off. That's one where it is usually best to avoid the subject all together in our overly-sensitive culture.

D&D does it all the time. So do other fantasy books, & other genres as well. Churches (and Gods) play a large part.

To my knowledge, New West is the only book that even mentions such a thing, with the Preacher OCC.

[slappy]

I'm not saying it would bother me. I find religious mythology fascinating. In fact, Pantheons of the Megaverse is a favorite book of mine. It defines the gods, and it got my creative juices flowing on the types of people that would worship them. These were safe religions to examine because our culture defines them as false (same with the Dragonwright Church). Trying to show how our current religions carried on into the Rifts age would likely offend people.

I figure that as beleaguered as Palladium is by their "fans," they may intentionally steer clear of possibly contentious topics.

[Danger]

D&D does it all the time. So do other fantasy books, & other genres as well. Churches (and Gods) play a large part.

To my knowledge, New West is the only book that even mentions such a thing, with the Preacher OCC.

I don't know if you know this...but D&D got attacked Ruthelessly by conservative religious types for having Churches and Gods...
Okay I was being sarcastic, but really it's a debate that refuses to die between roleplayers and non-roleplayers/concerned parents/citizens

Of course I know about that. I've been gaming for over 25 years. I remember the Dark Ages of Gaming in the 80's.

[Pox]

As I noted above, given the volume of books published, I doubt ONE SINGLE SOLITARY BOOK on the topic of culture, politics, and religion (where the heck did religion go? spirituality is a major fact of life for over 70% of the planet).

You got to admit, trying to fictionalize religion has a pretty good chance of pissing people off. That's one where it is usually best to avoid the subject all together in our overly-sensitive culture.

D&D does it all the time. So do other fantasy books, & other genres as well. Churches (and Gods) play a large part.

To my knowledge, New West is the only book that even mentions such a thing, with the Preacher OCC.

There is also the Catholic Priest in Rifts World Book 17: Warlords of Russia on pg. 208 and I believe that a more Wicca-esque version of a witch is somewhere in Mystic Russia. Plus there is Wormwood that is so permeated with Religious overtones that it defines the book.

A look on religion, talk about how the average joe lives AND toys in one book...So if more books were like WB 17 would more people be happy?

[Braden Campbell]

You know...overall...I would be.

Russia had world info...maps...new toys...aside from a few things (like the Sovietski...does every country have to have a Coalition in all but name?) Russia is pretty good.

Japan, as Pete mentioned, also deserves high props. Same reasons... world info... new toys... even maps! When the company gets it right, we fully acknowledge it.

But compare these to Psyscape...or Rifts Canada.

Here... http://spleen.mearcair.net/rifts/books.htm

[Subjugator]

D&D does it all the time. So do other fantasy books, & other genres as well. Churches (and Gods) play a large part.

To my knowledge, New West is the only book that even mentions such a thing, with the Preacher OCC.

I don't know if you know this...but D&D got attacked Ruthelessly by conservative religious types for having Churches and Gods...
Okay I was being sarcastic, but really it's a debate that refuses to die between roleplayers and non-roleplayers/concerned parents/citizens

Of course I know about that. I've been gaming for over 25 years. I remember the Dark Ages of Gaming in the 80's.

*shudder*

People gravely assuring me that I'm going to go to hell if I so much as crack open a D&D book...man I hated that.

Zealot: I'm telling you, those books and games are a gateway to hell.
Me: Have you ever actually *read* one of the books?
Zealot: Well...no....
Me: Well let me educate you. They read like stereo instructions, not a manual to some pagan religion.
Zealot: That's just a clever disguise! They're trying to get you to believe in magic!
Me: So you don't believe magic exists?
Zealot: Of course not!
Me: What about where the Bible says to avoid it and calls it evil? What about what so many people actively practiced in the Bible?
Zealot: That's different! That's Satan!
Me: Well, I hereby invite you to a game and see if any of us use anything REMOTELY like magic!
Zealot: I will not participate in such a thing! (heatedly)
Me: I'm asking you to show me what I'm doing that's wrong. To help me...illuminate my blind eyes and show me where what I'm doing is evil. I don't see it.

...and so on and so on...