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I think becoming like Tolkeen in allowing Demons and Evil Magic in ther city will make it Fall.

The People of Lazlo can Never Trust the FoM!
The FoM let Tolkeen fall.

To Me any Attack from the C.S is 20 or 30 years away.
Thing could changed in that time.

Lazlo must make Alliances with other Good kingdoms like Dweomer,Magestar and Psyscape,they must team-up and from a Defend from the FoM.

They known if the FoM win a War vs the C.S that ther Next.

My guess is that Lazlo is gradually become more and more corrupt as it involves itself in darker and darker magic.
In the end it is just going to be an Splogger outpost and nobody is even going to notice the transition.

I think it won't fall, and will just move eventually.

The Coalition will come crashing down on it eventually. For some reason their alliances with other cities will be forgotten. They will not run. Their magic will suddendly stop working. All the dragons, gods and other such powerful creatures will run. They will start summoning demons and monsters by the hundreds.

Basicly a replay of the kind of writting we saw in the SoT.

Kev will simply never allow a target of the Coalition to win a war against them. Period.

How I think it should play out? The CS attacks, Lazlo repulses their hoards, then follows up with several crippling blows to the Coalition's industrial/agricultural base. Sufficient damage is inflicted to cause the CS to retreat and lick it's wounds. They stay within their own borders for the next 40 years wondering what went wrong and trying to not to look weak.

The fall will happen quite suddenly when people find out plato is pulling a merrlynn. Come on an old and powerful dragon with no other motive but providing a place of peace and learning. Right, And he's in government that makes it even more believably now he's the loved father figure of some of the most powerful people on the planet. Dragons make long trem plan, I can't wait to see what his is.

The realistic answer: a combination of factors.

What will actually happen: Never fall, beating the CS in some Deus ex Machina pulled-out-of-the-corn-chute great paragon-of-virtue sacrifice that will stop the CS, like the ending of a bad 80's fantasy.

Face it: the story of Rifts NA as per KS will be the CS, dark pit of human fascist eeeeeevil, crushes all before it until Lazlo, the ordained center of all that is good and holy in NA, stops them without having to violate a principled alignment check.

Magnus wrote:Unlike some other magic kingdoms I know of they the ancient dragons in Lazlo can work together and are not likely to abandon the city alone so external threats are too much of a problem.

How do you know what the ancient dragons in lazlo are like? You have one really good dragon (Plato) and that's all we've ever heard of.

Also note: Read the Dragon RCC in the original rifts book. Dragons do not live close to each other, which is why tolkeen and Lazlo have just as much writers "fiat" as CS winning the war against tolkeen.

I would love to see KS outline Lazlo's military, hopefully it will be ORGANIZED, and well trained.. unlike some other useless magical kingdoms. Alos, Lazlo needs to expand it's borders and make sure it has the recources to fend off the Coalition.

Even if it is organized and train they've already admited they couldn't stop CS even with tolkeens help.

Lazlo is an idea. CS will hopefully never beat the idea that is lazlo. More than likely a mass exodus out west to rebuild their city, but they will not fight except to defend themselves long enough to evacuate their city.

darkbrandon wrote:Lazlo is an idea. CS will hopefully never beat the idea that is lazlo. More than likely a mass exodus out west to rebuild their city, but they will not fight except to defend themselves long enough to evacuate their city.

That's something that has been bothering me lately. Kev's answer for everything seems to be "Run away". Look at the SoT, Erin Tarn says "Run away" , Lazlo says "Run away", the great upholders of justice and the underdog, the cyber-knights said "Run away". Because you know running away solves all your problems

Seriously, that just seems to me to be the message KS is giving. Got a problem? Run away. Don't fight for what's right, give in to terror and tyranny. Also plays well in to the other part of that message, neighbor got problems? just look the other way. It's not your home that is being invaded afterall.

This may sound harsh but it is honestly the message I get from the Rifts metaplot.

Lazlo won't lose. Why? Because they have me as an ally. (If any of my players are reading it, remember that I like to say one thing and do another when it comes to the story arc ) As far as what Siembieda will do with the city? No clue. If things got too hot and heavy, I think they would probably either evac the city or rift all of it somewhere else.

I have not voted in this poll because Lazlo like the CS is far to intergal to the overall story of Rifts to ever fall.

Toc Rat wrote:That's something that has been bothering me lately. Kev's answer for everything seems to be "Run away". Look at the SoT, Erin Tarn says "Run away" , Lazlo says "Run away", the great upholders of justice and the underdog, the cyber-knights said "Run away". Because you know running away solves all your problems

Seriously, that just seems to me to be the message KS is giving. Got a problem? Run away. Don't fight for what's right, give in to terror and tyranny. Also plays well in to the other part of that message, neighbor got problems? just look the other way. It's not your home that is being invaded afterall.

This may sound harsh but it is honestly the message I get from the Rifts metaplot.

I'm sorry that's all you get from it. I get alot more from it. I'm even more sorry you're missing the point of the rifts RPG is about.

I like the idea that in 20 or 30 years the CS has them surrounded but will not be able to assault the city as long as Lazlo stays on the defensive. Besides its not really like they have trade routes that the CS can assault, need food open a rift, need weapons open a rift.

tolkeen had the same options for trade as lazlo by rifts and they werent able to get adequet (sp?) supplies for some strange reason. they had to rely on the colorado baronies.

Well the problem with opening rifts is that occasionally they misbehave and instead of a food shipment you get a swarm of THINGS trying to eat you.

Blight wrote:The fall will happen quite suddenly when people find out plato is pulling a merrlynn. Come on an old and powerful dragon with no other motive but providing a place of peace and learning. Right, And he's in government that makes it even more believably now he's the loved father figure of some of the most powerful people on the planet. Dragons make long trem plan, I can't wait to see what his is.

Ah yes, it all makes sense now, Plato is an agent of Styphathal, maneuvering for a key opportunity to break the back of Lazlo, with Tolkeen gone, and Kingsdale and New Lazlo next, Lazlo itself will not be far behind (far be it from the CS to actually attack the FoM anywhere in between).

Toc Rat wrote:That's something that has been bothering me lately. Kev's answer for everything seems to be "Run away". Look at the SoT, Erin Tarn says "Run away" , Lazlo says "Run away", the great upholders of justice and the underdog, the cyber-knights said "Run away". Because you know running away solves all your problems

Seriously, that just seems to me to be the message KS is giving. Got a problem? Run away. Don't fight for what's right, give in to terror and tyranny. Also plays well in to the other part of that message, neighbor got problems? just look the other way. It's not your home that is being invaded afterall.

This may sound harsh but it is honestly the message I get from the Rifts metaplot.

An excellent insight that hits the nail on the head with a rune-hammer.

RainOfSteel wrote:An excellent insight that hits the nail on the head with a rune-hammer.

Thanks

Blight wrote:The fall will happen quite suddenly when people find out plato is pulling a merrlynn. Come on an old and powerful dragon with no other motive but providing a place of peace and learning. Right, And he's in government that makes it even more believably now he's the loved father figure of some of the most powerful people on the planet. Dragons make long trem plan, I can't wait to see what his is.

Yea, sure. Plato is an evil dragon plotting against the very humans he pretends to be helping and serving. You know just like prosek is keeping his citizens ignorant so they can lead better, healthier, more productive, fuller lives. Just like dunscon is a good guy just because he isn't a member of the cs. Yea sure just like its ok for melbourne and perth to not share their technology with the rest of they dying,starving australians.


-you can convince yourself of anything if your willing to lie to yourself for long enough. Still won't be true though.

Larsen wrote:

Blight wrote:The fall will happen quite suddenly when people find out plato is pulling a merrlynn. Come on an old and powerful dragon with no other motive but providing a place of peace and learning. Right, And he's in government that makes it even more believably now he's the loved father figure of some of the most powerful people on the planet. Dragons make long trem plan, I can't wait to see what his is.

Yea, sure. Plato is an evil dragon plotting against the very humans he pretends to be helping and serving. You know just like prosek is keeping his citizens ignorant so they can lead better, healthier, more productive, fuller lives. Just like dunscon is a good guy just because he isn't a member of the cs. Yea sure just like its ok for melbourne and perth to not share their technology with the rest of they dying,starving australians.


-you can convince yourself of anything if your willing to lie to yourself for long enough. Still won't be true though.

Yep no plot twist like this has ever happened before.

Blight wrote:

Larsen wrote:

Blight wrote:The fall will happen quite suddenly when people find out plato is pulling a merrlynn. Come on an old and powerful dragon with no other motive but providing a place of peace and learning. Right, And he's in government that makes it even more believably now he's the loved father figure of some of the most powerful people on the planet. Dragons make long trem plan, I can't wait to see what his is.

Yea, sure. Plato is an evil dragon plotting against the very humans he pretends to be helping and serving. You know just like prosek is keeping his citizens ignorant so they can lead better, healthier, more productive, fuller lives. Just like dunscon is a good guy just because he isn't a member of the cs. Yea sure just like its ok for melbourne and perth to not share their technology with the rest of they dying,starving australians.


-you can convince yourself of anything if your willing to lie to yourself for long enough. Still won't be true though.

Yep no plot twist like this has ever happened before.

None this big. Cs still run by a tyrannical leader and his flunkies. Lazlo still run by the idealists. vamps still in mexico trying to gather strength to conquer rifts. splorg still doing same thing. merrlynn still doing same thing. dark intelligence thing way under water ditto there. And also if it did happen it would be more that ks wants his precious cs to be the winners of yet another conflict.

darkbrandon wrote:
I'm sorry that's all you get from it. I get alot more from it. I'm even more sorry you're missing the point of the rifts RPG is about.

OK, give me what you get out of it then. Tell me what you think the point of Rifts RPG is about.
Note- I never said anything about the entire point of the RPG itself, just what I get out of a portion of the metaplot that deals with the Coalition States. However since you brought it up, I will say what I think the "point" of the RPG is. It's to have fun. That's the point of any RPG. Going back to the metaplot, yes in places I can see where the idea is "The human spirit can endure against incredible odds" However that goes right out the window the second the CS enter the picture. There the message is "run away or you will be killed now. By running away we will kill you later"

I would like to be wrong, it would be great if you could prove that "run away, it solves your problems" isn't the message KS has given us time and again with regards to the Coalition. Nothing would please me more.

I would like nothing more then for Kevin S himself to get on these boards and say, "The CS will eventually face an opponent they can't beat. Running away doesn't solve problems. The CS will not go on to conquer the whole world, kill every D-bee man, woman, baby, mages and anyone else that gets in their crosshairs. Don't worry, I just haven't written that book yet."[/i]

I actually think that neither the CS nor Lazlo will ever fall as they are both pivotal to KS' concept of Rifts North America.
If anything I think there is a greater chance of the CS' dictatorship changing into a democracy before Lazlo will fall. Maybe they will both end up forming a united force for the preservation of civilization in North America.

That would be another good plot, (insert really bad customer) rises up and they have to unite to stop them.

Lazlo will never fall, or if looks like they will falls ks will just transport them to a more safer area away for the coalition maybe in a more liberal friendly area

Mech-Viper wrote:Lazlo will never fall, or if looks like they will falls ks will just transport them to a more safer area away for the coalition maybe in a more liberal friendly area

agreed.
pretty much the same as the cs will never fall or lose a major battle. they are both the golden child of ks, just opposite sides of the coin.

on one side, tolerance, acceptance, love, freedom, intelligence, on the other bigotry, hate, ignorance, and machiavellian leadership.

Mech-Viper wrote:Lazlo will never fall, or if looks like they will falls ks will just transport them to a more safer area away for the coalition maybe in a more liberal friendly area

Why assume they are liberal? And are you implying that is a bad thing or good thing?

And if ks ever throws an old one as an active antagonist in rifts. (for the time being I'm just going to assume that Nyxla is a lier and not an old one) I will never again pick up a Rifts book. "Theres an old one building an empire in NA" "Wait you mean the alliance of light missed one??" "Ya you know there are many places to hide in a pocket dimension" .....Darn you people for making my favorite world where the fate of the mega-verse was decided into a bag of holding that my wizard owned while I still played D&D

Toc Rat wrote:OK, give me what you get out of it then. Tell me what you think the point of Rifts RPG is about.
Note- I never said anything about the entire point of the RPG itself, just what I get out of a portion of the metaplot that deals with the Coalition States. However since you brought it up, I will say what I think the "point" of the RPG is. It's to have fun. That's the point of any RPG. Going back to the metaplot, yes in places I can see where the idea is "The human spirit can endure against incredible odds" However that goes right out the window the second the CS enter the picture. There the message is "run away or you will be killed now. By running away we will kill you later"

You can't bet ignorance with ignorance. That old saying "Don't argue with an idiot, he'll bring you down to his level and then beat you with experience". CS is a war nation through and through. If your gonna beat something like that you can't beat it through war. You pull things like erin tarns and try to educate the people little by little. In a war like enviornment, CS and quebec are built for it, head to toe. It is the very fiber of their being, war. No, Tolkeen may have had a decent army, but they were not really set up for war on the scale the CS was bringing to them. That's why they had to rely on so many mercs and the cyber-knights.

I would like to be wrong, it would be great if you could prove that "run away, it solves your problems" isn't the message KS has given us time and again with regards to the Coalition. Nothing would please me more.

I do not see it simply as running away, just "Be smarter than your enemie". In this case, disgression is the better part of valor. Tolkeen didn't have any allies, the allies he did have were questionable, it wasn't as war viable as CS was made out to be. Besides, Tolkeen is/was a nation of learning and peace, they should have used that to beat CS.

tolkeen should have figured out it was pretty much done for when "WB10 Colition war campaign" came out. I know if I was in tolkeen I would have been like "OMG, they got their OWN book...and we don't have one! Crips....!" [/joke]

I would like nothing more then for Kevin S himself to get on these boards and say, "The CS will eventually face an opponent they can't beat. Running away doesn't solve problems. The CS will not go on to conquer the whole world, kill every D-bee man, woman, baby, mages and anyone else that gets in their crosshairs. Don't worry, I just haven't written that book yet."[/i]

Why do you need kevin to come out and say that to you? How about this "CS will not win rifts earth. It would cause my money maker to come to a complete end and then I would be out of a job, because part of rifts earth is diversity." How about "The siege on tolkeen was made as an adventure books more than anything, and it was something fun your players and you could take part in, in the end is has no real barring on RIFTS earth". How about if he just come in and says "Splugorth".

Personally, I can't see why someone would get so worked up over CS when things like the splugorth and vampire kingdoms and Nxla exist. Would any one of these be much much more likely to take over rift earth than CS? (Excluding the lame "CS is protected by the hand of god" joke")

Mad about tolkeen? Why? It was a piddly-nothing nation that had a few blurbs in a few books, that made for one little war that the players could take part in. Players are mad they can't change the outcome of the war? Well, Agreed partially. I think to keep continuity, you have to have a pre-determined outcome. People want updates on nations, how do you update a nation that should have gone through a war by now. How do you update triax, if they are still fighting the Gargs? I'd find it to be boring if there was no change.

Besides, the only time I've ever seen anyone run was lazlo saying tolkeen should pull back. CS is just too strong to take on in a war. Perhaps Lazlo knew what it was talking about. Perhaps if tolkeen had pulled out, the CS hive would become aggitated, and thus the inwardly collapse of the dictatorship. Maybe not.

In reality, I get ALOT more from this than simply "running away to solve your problems".

Remember who your dealing with, KS is the same guy who threw nighlords at nightbane, who have a huge army and the nightbane are hopelessly outnumbers/outmatched. This is the same guy who throws in Mechanoids who eat planets, at normal humans. Same guy who lets bugs go into the phone lines and takes over the world. It is the very nature of Kevins games to have this overwhelming threat. This is where you fight when you need to and only then. You continue to pull back until something amaizing happens.

This overwhelming threat is not new to Palladium games. And CS is no where near that level yet. You may very well see "RIFTS: Tomarrow" where you have to play as a dbee or dbee sympathizer cause CS/Triax and Quebec have won most of rifts earth, and the few dbees that exist still are on the run....who knows.

darkbrandon wrote:Remember who your dealing with, KS is the same guy who threw nighlords at nightbane, who have a huge army and the nightbane are hopelessly outnumbers/outmatched. This is the same guy who throws in Mechanoids who eat planets, at normal humans. Same guy who lets bugs go into the phone lines and takes over the world. It is the very nature of Kevins games to have this overwhelming threat. This is where you fight when you need to and only then. You continue to pull back until something amaizing happens.

This overwhelming threat is not new to Palladium games. And CS is no where near that level yet. You may very well see "RIFTS: Tomarrow" where you have to play as a dbee or dbee sympathizer cause CS/Triax and Quebec have won most of rifts earth, and the few dbees that exist still are on the run....who knows.

I had forgotten about that. Now I really feel that the Coalition will continue to expand thru bad writting more now then ever. Nothing will stand in their way. Watch Spylncryth will decide to give up Atlantis, the Lord of the Deep will be blown away by the mother of all depth charges.

Wait for something amazing to happen? Are you serious? Amazing as in what? a asteroid the size of new york gets past the lunar/space colonies and hits Chi-Town? You can't be serious about that.

I understand, to an extent, the use for a metaplot. However it has always been my deepest belief that the players are the focus of the game. NOT the "metaplot". If the SoT had really been written as a adventure series it would have given examples for a win by the CS and Tolkeen. It would also have given a case for a draw. What about more worldbooks? Plenty can still be written. Lazlo is still only a "few paragraphs" in a few books. That has been my contention all along, every new world book that came out also advanced the time line. He should have kept it the same time until we had a book for each place. Then you can write updates for them and "advance" the oh so important metaplot. Your argument that we shouldn't care about Tolkeen because it was only a few paragraphs in a couple books doesn't hold up. You can use that same logic for why we shouldn't be upset if Lazlo got nuked in the next book.

I can see your case for "fight smarter then your enemies" with the SoT. I still feel that my observation of the message being "run away" has more evidence to support it. Just take a look at the message boards. On the Lazlo threads many have said "Run away". Even you have said that, so it would seem you got the messaage loud and clear.

Thanks for your insights, you haven't changed my conclusions but I am glad that you gave your thoughts on the matter.

Oh as for why I would want KS to say it here, it's because it's his game and company and just so there is no missunderstanding, I don't want him to say it to me personally, just here on the boards for all to read and have drawn similar conclusions to mine.

Toc Rat wrote:I had forgotten about that. Now I really feel that the Coalition will continue to expand thru bad writting more now then ever. Nothing will stand in their way. Watch Spylncryth will decide to give up Atlantis, the Lord of the Deep will be blown away by the mother of all depth charges.

More than likely, if anyone is gonna "take over" it'll either be the vampires, or splyn or China hells. Unless you take one little war book adventure to heart, which, luckly, even as a CS sympathizer, I don't. It was just an adventure book. If push ever came to shove, CS would fall to splynn. Want proof? Mechanoids, Kevin's first love (First major badguy ever created, launched palladium onto the market, super powerful) was eventually beaten. So yes, it can happen.

Wait for something amazing to happen? Are you serious? Amazing as in what? a asteroid the size of new york gets past the lunar/space colonies and hits Chi-Town? You can't be serious about that.

In Mechanoids, just one day, the entire complex died. No one knows why. They were on the verge of winning...and then....what? what?! I dunno!!! but they will return....oh...yes they will. But these are the type of enviornments Kevin puts up. Ones you just can't win...Nightbane is similar...and System failor.

I understand, to an extent, the use for a metaplot. However it has always been my deepest belief that the players are the focus of the game. NOT the "metaplot".

To me, the game is what is important. Sometimes players just can't make a difference on the grand scheme of things. But that doesn't mean they don't help. I played SoT, and we for example, took down the Orphanage/Slave trade place. Granted, we couldn't stop the CS onslaught, but we did make a difference.

If the SoT had really been written as a adventure series it would have given examples for a win by the CS and Tolkeen.

Not if future books are gonna have relevence to CS/Tolkeen. You'd have to have a definate winner. If anything, I hope's he's learned just to release the info that the war is over, who won some interesting war items and that is it. I guess it just depends on how one looks at it and what they expect.

It would also have given a case for a draw. What about more worldbooks? Plenty can still be written. Lazlo is still only a "few paragraphs" in a few books. That has been my contention all along, every new world book that came out also advanced the time line. He should have kept it the same time until we had a book for each place. Then you can write updates for them and "advance" the oh so important metaplot. Your argument that we shouldn't care about Tolkeen because it was only a few paragraphs in a couple books doesn't hold up. You can use that same logic for why we shouldn't be upset if Lazlo got nuked in the next book.

I wouldn't be. Not because of me liking CS or anything. Simply because it would make a book I own (CS war campaign, a good portion of SB 1) worthless. If lazlo gets bumped who cares, no one lost any money over it...if Quebec gets bumped another book worthless. If vampire kingdomes get bumped...oh, i'm mad...about the only one I wouldn't care about is camalot. That place can be razed and burn. i'll even burn my world book 3 if they make a new better one of it.

I can see your case for "fight smarter then your enemies" with the SoT. I still feel that my observation of the message being "run away" has more evidence to support it. Just take a look at the message boards. On the Lazlo threads many have said "Run away". Even you have said that, so it would seem you got the messaage loud and clear.

The message run away is just plain smart. Someone posted the specs of lazlo...having less than a million people living there. Don't know where they got it from, but it it does sound legit. At that point, I don't think it's so much the message that KS is giving, but simply a message of logic.

Thanks for your insights, you haven't changed my conclusions but I am glad that you gave your thoughts on the matter.

Oh as for why I would want KS to say it here, it's because it's his game and company and just so there is no missunderstanding, I don't want him to say it to me personally, just here on the boards for all to read and have drawn similar conclusions to mine.

any time. Personally, i'd like him to get online to answer rules questions. Nothing like a "MDC/SDC" Debate to really appriciate official answers.