How does everyone handle combos in their campaigns?

[Guest]

I was going through my old archives and came across some topics that looked like they still had some potential for discussion as well as being of possible interest to people who joined the message boards after they originally occured.

Im not talking about combo moves like combo parry/attack, Im talking about multi-hit combos. Either realistic ones like the classic boxing jab+jab+powerpunch, or more cinematic ones like seen in anime and videogames. I seem to be having gamer's block in regard to this so hopefuly a couple of creative ideas can help to get me rolling again.

Thanks in advance.

I've thought about this myself, I figure modified variants of the Lightning Form Kata could be used to represent multi-combo strikes. I'd suggest limiting the characters to one multi-combo per melee, with the same restrictions as Lightning Form (i.e. the next attack(s) are restricted to no dodge and no bonus to parry or other defensive moves (which raises the question of what happens if the character has Auto-Dodge)).

It could work this way:

2-strike combo: allows two attacks in one melee action, but the character can't dodge for the next two melee actions and has no bonuses to parry or any other defensive move (for the next two actions).

3-strike combo: allows three attacks in one melee action, but the character can't dodge for the next three melee actions and no bonuses to parry or other defensive moves (for those three actions).

and the same for 4-,5-,6-,and 7- strike combos (however many strikes are in the combo determine the number of actions following which the character cannot dodge or receive bonuses to other defensive moves).

Of course, to help simulate the cinematic level of play, I also recommend giving the characters the extra two attacks that the rest of Palladium characters get.

As for Auto-Dodge in these circumstances, I would allow characters to use the Auto-dodge after a multi-strike combo, but wouldn't allow bonuses.

The only other considerations I could think of that would have to be taken into account is what styles would receive the multi-combo strikes and when in the melee round they could be used. I suggest that they be used only if the character has initiative for that round, but I don't think they should have to be used as the first attack in the round (i.e. the character who wins initiative could throw a normal strike for his first attack, auto-parry the incoming attack, and then unleash a flurry of blows from a 3-strike combo). Another thing to consider is that these combos would allow a character to perform in one action attacks that would normally take two attacks, allowing them to retain the same number of actions per melee, yet use one of the more damaging moves in a melee round (Of course they are going to have fun trying to deflect the next incoming attack, but hey, like everything else, its a tradeoff).

More notes on multi-strike combos:

Further attacks in the same melee round: Assuming the character has enough actions, the character can attack again in after the number of actions equal to half the number of attacks used in the combo, rounded down (i.e. a character performing a four strike combo would be allowed to attack again in the third action after the combo was performed). For the interveining actions the character can defend with the usual restrictions or perform any other, non-attack action (i.e. moving in or out of combat range, drawing a weapon, peforming a skill, etc.).

Defense against multi-strike combos:
Due to the extremely fast paced nature of the multi-strike combo, only a few defensive moves are effective:
Back Flip (with half the normal bonuses, must be a Defensive Back Flip)
Automatic Body Flip/Throw (with half normal bonuses, can also be used to nullify the entire combo if performed by a margin of 5 or greater (i.e. the character's roll plus bonuses must be five or more points above the attacker's roll with bonuses))
Multiple Dodge (performed as normal, but only works against the attacker perfoming the multi-strike combo)
Automatic Dodge (can be used as normal to dodge the multi-strike combo, but counts as one melee action...just hope that isn't your opponents first attack (remember, to use a multi-strike combo, the attacker must have initiative))
Entangle (works the same as Automatic Body Flip/Throw against multi-strike combos)
Automatic Parry (can be used as normal, however in this instance it counts as one action)
Circular Parry (no change)

Disarm (no bonuses whatsoever, uses the defensive Disarm rules)

Simultaneous Attack (this can be done in place of a defense against a multi-strike combo, however, it does not allow the defender to strike for each strike of the combo (paired weapons can be used for a dual strike as per normal))

Roll with Punch/Fall/Impact (unless the character has Automatic Roll, only one strike of the multi-strike combo can be Rolled against (defender's choice))
Maintain Balance (This works against any knockdown effect of the entire multi-strike combo...unless (at the GM's option) the attacker attempts multiple knockdown attacks against the defender (i.e. the attacker attempts two tripping/leg hooks and Backward Sweeps (or other, purely knockdown, attack))


Normal Dodges and Parries (for those characters without hand to hand training) will only protect against the first strike of a multi-strike combo and are performed with no bonuses.


All the normal attack rules must be adhered to when performing multi-strike combos (i.e. if one attack of the multi-strike combo is an Axe Kick, no other kicks can be used in that multi-strike combo (or for the rest of the round)), this includes attacks that normally take up two (or more) attacks (i.e. a power punch that uses up two attacks would use up two strikes in a multi-strike combo).


Weapons and multi-strike combos:
To perform a multi-strike combo with a melee weapon (fist and foot augmentations aside--i.e. brass knuckles, claws, etc) the character must have either a Weapon Kata for that weapon and style or a specialized skill such as W.P. Sharpshooting (with the mutli-strike combo option--more detail later), Fencing (for swords), or something along the lines of W.P. Weapon Mastery (for that weapon).


Anything I am forgetting?

note

if the attacker is using muti-hand strikes then a drop-dodge, to intentionly fall down to dodge the attack, would dodge all the attacks.


the same Might be said if the attacker is using kick attacks.

if such lighting attacks are to be concedered true Katas then there is no(minaml) thought processes in the actions <all muscle reflexe learning skills> then the fallowup attackes to the 1st would be dodged if the 1st was. this is modifyed with the chars pull punch bonusese to see if the char can change the kata progame midstream other wise once the 1st hit/kick is dodged all other are dodged as well.

try this run though a srieze of punches and try to change your target of a punch after you start the punch. Notice that most of the time your going to hit the place you targeted the punch when you 1st intiated the action. well that is what you have to overcome to change in the middle of a Kata.
However a good portion of MA training is to overcome this same problem, changeing you strike/parry/dodge to match/respond to your oppnents strike/dodge/parrys.
The other part of MA training is to teach your muscles sparticuler movment so the brain only has to send an initiator signal to the muscles and mot the whole movment program. This is why the longer you practice the faster you can respond to something.

(it is very didtraciting to be in the flight path for a military base, with fighters and cargo plane flying over head on a landing approch)

[Addressing Ben's comment on muti-hand strikes]
As for combination moves that incorporate dodges and parries, they use the same rules for normal dodges and parries.

[Addressing Ben's comment on lightning attacks]
These are not kata, but offensive moves which have the game mechanics derived from the lightning kata.

[Addressing Ben's comment on MA training]
As above, these are not kata. In addition, feints and altering targets in mid-strike are not being covered as part of this method.

[General addendum comment]
On another note (in case I haven't covered it before), a multi-strike combo can be used to attack multiple opponents, but only if the first strike of the combo is an attack which allows two opponents to be struck with the same move (i.e. Leap Attack against two opponents who are close together, after initiating the multi-strike combo, the attacker could continue attacking either or both of the opponents with strikes used in the combo, remember though, any strike which normally only targets one opponent can only be used to strike one opponent in the multi-strike combo, to attack both opponents simultaneously, dual attacks are needed (i.e. paired weapons and so forth)).

http://sinestus.tripod.com/trin/march01.txt


(SHAMELESS PLUG!!!!)


anyways, there's my solution for it... "combos" I'm familiar with are referred to as "trapping" where the fighter holds off on offencive actions to trick their opponent into over-extending themselves (or moving into a poor position) then unleashing a fury of attacks...

I wrote "Card-FU" to promot this concept and the idea of "positioning" liiting what strikes are possible in a melee... (also it speeds up small hth combat, and prevents players from throwing 5 cresent kicks in a row...)

if the diret link doesn't work it's March 01, on :
http://sinestus.tripod.com/wbme.htm

the only reason it's "failed" is making decks can consume alot of time, so we'ver only run 1 campeign with it...

I allow multi-strike combos for the PCs, and generally they do not abuse them. However they know that if they have them, so do the villains. No more than three techniques can be combined in this fashion, and it's worked out pretty good.

second comment ... just though of this...

combos can also happen when
1. the right sequence of moves are used (eg: throw, strike, leg hook, strike) which would keep the enemy using actions to recover....
2. when the opponent runs out of actions.

finally... in the World Warriors Rifter issue (takes defensive stance in anticipation of flames) there are styles specifically designed for combos (like those offering 'auto-powerblock parries' and whatnot... don't remember the exacts...)
similarly, the use of autododges and whatnot can make the player seem to just be using a massive set of combos when they're actually dodging right before every strike...

Thanks for all the replies. One thing I thought of is a level/combo restriction. It breaks down like this; a character can link one move for every level of experience into his combo. For example, a fourth level character can work up to 4 hit combos. A sixth level character can do up to 6 hit combos. Yes, that means first level characters cannot use combos yet. They just learned their art to where they can just use it effectively.

Now go get some experience boy...

Kuseru wrote "Due to the extremely fast paced nature of the multi-strike combo, only a few defensive moves are effective:
{snip}
Simultaneous Attack (this can be done in place of a defense against a multi-strike combo, however, it does not allow the defender to strike for each strike of the combo (paired weapons can be used for a dual strike as per normal))"

I would think that a successful Simultaneous Attack by the defender would stop (interrupt) a combo attempt.

[In response to Mantisking's post]
C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!!

Lovin it. My two cents on that is the further into the combo the victim is the harder it becomes to break.

[In response to Ten Tiger's thank you post]
Don't forget to also limit by number of attacks (otherwise you'll have them munchy players throwing multi-strike combos which exceed their number of attacks).

[In response to Kuseru's last post]
Good idea. I am now tinkering with how much it costs attack per melee wise. Otherwise it is just an overglorified lightning combo from Thai Kick Boxing if it depletes their action completely. Just to illustrate the economy of motion that makes combos possible. Example: three hit combo from a parry; Paries with the right hand then hits with a crossing left elbow, to a jutting left elbow (which is already coiled to strike), to a right handed power punch (which is now cocked fron jutting forward with the left.]

Four seperate moves (parry/elbow/elbow/powerpunch), but I would only charge two attacks. However the combo could not exceede the total attacks per melee, even if it only cost two attacks. Or the level restriction for that matter. A third level character with two attacks per melee could not perform the above combo.

combos should cost more actions, not less... otherwise you weaken the power of "combo moves" (like drop kick) and the Lightning Kata...
perhaps not limiting by level, but saying each attack after the first costs an additional action... thus the first attack takes one action, the second two, the third three... so a three his combo would take a total of six actions...

[In response to Sinestus's last post]
There is no way I would charge someone 6 actions for that three hit combo. Thats more than most characters ever see without stacking their characters with boxing and every other thing under the sun to up that rate. jab jab uppercut. I dont see the need to charge 6 attacks for that. That seems ludicrous. Besides, moves like drop kick can be worked into the combo, so it in no way devalues it. And as far as the lightning combo goes, it will always have the advantage of no level restriction/hit total, and being treated like a volley of missles (one strike roll).

oy, where's it say "one strike roll"
they get all their attacks in one action, doesn't mean they arn't seperate attacks.

anyways, what about auto-moves... can you auto-lock then strike as a combo?

[In response to Sinestus's last post]
By George the lad is right. Sorry about the lightning kata you are so right about that. But to answer your question, yes an autolock can combo into a strike. In fact some of the more sinister styles out there have something that goes like this; the enemy throws a right power punch. The defender then does a cirrcular style auto lock, binding the elbow up, then immediatly comos into an elbow strike to the locked elbow, shattering it in the process.

I am at a loss for the lightning kata however. If anything else, I would just rewrite the lightning kata. Maybe have it reduce the level requirements for doing combos or something like that.

Either way I still find spending 6 attacks for a 3 hit combo to be a little too much. Especialy if a campaign is geared more toward cinimatic style of combat. Kung Fu Theater anyone?

One thing I was concidering is making it a rule that combos need to be pre-formated. A character cannot just create them on the fly. Of course limiting the ammount of usable combos, by level restrictions.

[In response to Sinestus's post about "one strike roll"]
I just had a good idea to bring LK back up to speed. Treat it as all one attack. Make it a one roll move. Now a character has a nasty little Chun Li style attack. I almost like that better than the original write up. Combos or no combos.

the problem with making it one attack is the fact it's supposed to be a wicked combo, thus many different attack types in it... and with the power of Kickboxing, giving that hind of hitting power an all-or-noting hit for all their attacks is silly... if the defender dodges the first attack, there should still be a good chance the others catch them... the kata's meant to drive the guy against the ropes, quickly and efficiently...

[In response to Ten Tigers concerning the "Good idea"]
These would be multi-strike combos, which means that defensive moves like parry would not be part of the combo.

[In response to Sinestus' post about combos costing more actions & Ten Tiger's reply about not charging 6 actions for a 3-hit combo]
Both of these points are equally valid, I would probably recommend having combos cost one action more than the number of strikes in the combo by way of compromise.

[In response to Ten Tiger's lightning kata rewrite]
One way to keep balance between multi-strike combos and lightning kata would be to put bonus restrictions on the combos (i.e. no bonuses or half bonuses to strike...or simply limit bonuses to a combo strike bonus).
The problem with pre-formated combos, is that you have to come up with a lot of formats for combos and that's quite a bit of effort for something which should be relatively simple. Also since each combat encounter is different, most martial artsits wouldn't want to be limited in what they could do in their combos.

[In response to the "one strike roll" post and all of it's replies]
I pretty much agree with Sinestus on this.

[In response to Ten Tigers post concerning the "Good idea"]
For the Number off attacks it takes I would use the thrash method (can't remeber the site buts a free Martial Arts/Anime RPG). This si slightly modified so here it goes.

The number of hits in a Combo can not and should not exceed your number of attacks.

The number of attacks it takes are equal to the number of hits -1. So a 3 hit is 2 attacks and a 1 hit is 1 attack.

Another note. Maybe you should only get PP bonus's to strike with combos. Just a thought.

Got a few thoughts on all this:

Aside from a rewrite of Ninjas, I think the following might be good:

Combos: The total number of attacks that can be linked is equal to the number of attacks -1 for every 3 levels after first (so level 1-3: number of hits=number of attacks, 4-6: number of connects-1=number of attacks, 7-9: number of attacks -2, etc)

Hence, a third level character trying to link a punch, knee, and throw would have to spend 3 attacks to do it, though it would be all at once. A fifth level character would make the same combo in two attacks, and a 8th level character would do it in one, signifying his experience in the martial arts. Of course all attacks would cost at least one attack, and a defender may roll defense against the number of attacks used against him. So up to 3 rolls against the 3rd level character, 2 against the 5th character, and only 1 against the 8th level. This would signify how scary it is to go against a master of the art, and allow for combos. And of course certain defenses are better for breaking combos, which needs to be fully fleshed out.

Whatcha think

[In response to Mikel's post]
Not bad Mikel. I kinda like that. And there are a lot of ideas in this thread for combo-breakers. Even if that breaks down to a simultanious attack for the untrained.

As far as the Thai boxin/ Lightning Kata dilema goes, the problem started way back when they decided that Muay Thai is an exclusive martial art form. Puhleeez dont make me laugh. It would probably be easier to find a Muay Thai instructor than some of the "non-exclusive" chinese martial arts. It needs to be rewritten. Especialy if combos are to be instituted. Personaly, I have found a lot better versions on the internet.

no, definately not less actions for more moves, that's downright cheap. you're suggesting that a 4th level fighter with 6 APM can combo for 9 hits each melee...
no...

perhaps have a damage level thing, where enough damage in one hit requires the opponent to maintain focus or something (a d20 roll?) or loose an action, thus allowing the attacker to continue attacking, giving the simulation of a combo, but still draining attacks normally.

since the "melee" is an arbitrary unit of time, this woule let a 6-hit combo to happen in just a few seconds, despite it having been a full melee.

[In response to Sinestus' last post]
I think you are on to something. This reminds me of a conversation I had with one of my old sparing partners. It was all about combos, and how they dont always work. It all breaks down to the fact that some people just dont get rolled by combos. They are either immune to pain, or just too **** dense for the attacks to get the desired chain reaction. Its a sad day when that elbow opener doesnt reel him like you anticipated.

It may be a *****, but I really want to get a good combo system for palladium. It would be well worth the effort in my opinion.