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Do any of you have a understanding of how nuclear reactors work, and if so, do you have a guess on how much power a reactor in lets say a SAMAS would produce. Basic facts would be great, along with any good geusses.

If you value your sanity, I suggest you cease and desist.

Mack wrote:If you value your sanity, I suggest you cease and desist.

I lost my sanity years ago. I need info.

Current nuclear reactors are steam engines... presumably in the future, there will be some kind of technology that can capture the radiation escaping the nuclear reaction directly and will not need to have the heat turn water into steam in order to generate power. Its another one of those, just assume they came up with cool stuff in the future, suspension of belief things.

Currently nuclear reactors use nuclear fission to heat up water at high pressures. This hot water is then run through a heat exchanger where it's heat produces steam. This steam is used to move turbines that are attached to electrical generators.

The reactors in Rifts and other palladium products use a method of fusion I believe that can directly produce electricity. There are currently reactors in development today that will produce similar results, though on a larger scale.

As far as how much power they produce, consider that one of these nuclear reactors can last for 20 years. Then consider that one can hook up an energy weapon of some kind to the reactor and fire it continuously until 20 years have passed (assuming the weapon lasts that long). You should be able to pick up the conversion from there.

I've worked in a nuclear reactor, it's boring.

As for power armor and bots, they use nuclear "batteries", not reactors.

Glistam wrote:Currently nuclear reactors use nuclear fission to heat up water at high pressures. This hot water is then run through a heat exchanger where it's heat produces steam. This steam is used to move turbines that are attached to electrical generators.

The reactors in Rifts and other palladium products use a method of fusion I believe that can directly produce electricity. There are currently reactors in development today that will produce similar results, though on a larger scale.

Really, what ones?

All fusion reactors I know of plan to use the heat produced to drive turbines that turn generators.

Can we get some cites?


Right now, there are only five ways to manufacture electricity that I know of:

1. Magnets & Metal Coils (either one turning inside the other). Low to Very High power.
2. Solar Power Cells (aka Photovoltaics; photons bombarding a receptive surface; various types). Low power.
3. Thermocouples (the junction of two different metals where there is a difference in temperature across the junction). Very low power.
4. Chemical (Fuel Cells, Batteries). Low to Moderate Power from Batteries, Moderate from Fuel Cells.
5. Betavoltaics (beta particles, high energy electrons, bombarding a semi-conductor). Very Low power.

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:I've worked in a nuclear reactor, it's boring.

As for power armor and bots, they use nuclear "batteries", not reactors.

The following: Merc Ops, p.113: Minature Fusion Power Plant: "It provides power output equal to a big robot vehicle engine," suggests that big robots do use fusion power plants.

As to "nuclear batteries" and the running of PAs and bots, I really don't pay much attention to that.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:I've worked in a nuclear reactor, it's boring.

As for power armor and bots, they use nuclear "batteries", not reactors.

The following: Merc Ops, p.113: Minature Fusion Power Plant: "It provides power output equal to a big robot vehicle engine," suggests that big robots do use fusion power plants.

First off, that statement does not suggest they use fusion power plants. Secondly, the description also states the "Miniature Fusion Power Plant" is a nuclear powered generator, precluding it from being a fusion power plant.

As to "nuclear batteries" and the running of PAs and bots, I really don't pay much attention to that.

For some clarification on different types of nuclear and fusion power sources:

Nuclear Fission Reactor: Produces power by splitting atoms. Heat produced by this method heats a medium such as water, to create steam and spin turbines.

Radiothermal Generator (RTG): Basically a nuclear battery where heat produced by a decaying radioisotope is converted to thermoelectric energy. It has no moving parts and doesn't use fuel, which means that each battery is good for 3-14 years before it needs to be replaced.

Nuclear Power Unit (NPU): A high performance RTG using more volatile isotopes. Battery is good for 5 years before replacement. (This is the mostly like choice for "Nuclear Power Supplies" in Rifts, though the battery length would obviously be longer.)

Tokamak Fusion Reactor: A power plant that generates energy by fusing hygrogen into helium (or particles into atoms).

Cold Fusion Reactor: Mythical process where fusion occurs without the need for external heating, producing cheap, easy to use power. Fuel tank lasts for 100 years or more.

Shadow Wyrm wrote:Do any of you have a understanding of how nuclear reactors work, and if so, do you have a guess on how much power a reactor in lets say a SAMAS would produce. Basic facts would be great, along with any good geusses.

In all likelihood how they work IRL has nothing at all to how they work in the game.

So in short, don't ask.

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:

RainOfSteel wrote:

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:I've worked in a nuclear reactor, it's boring.

As for power armor and bots, they use nuclear "batteries", not reactors.

The following: Merc Ops, p.113: Miniature Fusion Power Plant: "It provides power output equal to a big robot vehicle engine," suggests that big robots do use fusion power plants.

First off, that statement does not suggest they use fusion power plants. Secondly, the description also states the "Miniature Fusion Power Plant" is a nuclear powered generator, precluding it from being a fusion power plant.

So, something with "Miniature Fusion Power Plant" as its name is precluded from being a "fusion power plant" by being a "nuclear powered generator"?

That makes no sense whatsoever. The title clearly identifies it as a fusion plant, therefore it is a fusion plant.

"Nuclear" is a catch all word for processes related to the nuclei of atoms, and fusion power is definitely nuclear power.

The use of the word nuclear does not mandate fission processes.

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:

RainOfSteel wrote:As to "nuclear batteries" and the running of PAs and bots, I really don't pay much attention to that.

For some clarification on different types of nuclear and fusion power sources:

Nuclear Fission Reactor: Produces power by splitting atoms. Heat produced by this method heats a medium such as water, to create steam and spin turbines.

Radiothermal Generator (RTG): Basically a nuclear battery where heat produced by a decaying radioisotope is converted to thermoelectric energy. It has no moving parts and doesn't use fuel, which means that each battery is good for 3-14 years before it needs to be replaced.

The RTG is more properly known as the Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator.

It uses thermocouples to convert the heat into electricity, a very low efficiency form of power conversion.

It does most certainly use fuel. The radioactive material is the fuel.

It is a relatively low-power source of energy. It certainly cannot run bots.

The Stirling Radioisotope Generator is far more efficient, but it still couldn't hope to run a bot.

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:Nuclear Power Unit (NPU): A high performance RTG using more volatile isotopes. Battery is good for 5 years before replacement. (This is the mostly like choice for "Nuclear Power Supplies" in Rifts, though the battery length would obviously be longer.)

Toss me some real world cites here, my Google searches didn't turn up much.

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:Tokamak Fusion Reactor: A power plant that generates energy by fusing hygrogen into helium (or particles into atoms).

There are others types of proposed hot fusion reactors.

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:Cold Fusion Reactor: Mythical process where fusion occurs without the need for external heating, producing cheap, easy to use power. Fuel tank lasts for 100 years or more.

Muon cold fusion being the primary theoretical candidate, though it is just that, a theory.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Glistam wrote:Currently nuclear reactors use nuclear fission to heat up water at high pressures. This hot water is then run through a heat exchanger where it's heat produces steam. This steam is used to move turbines that are attached to electrical generators.

The reactors in Rifts and other palladium products use a method of fusion I believe that can directly produce electricity. There are currently reactors in development today that will produce similar results, though on a larger scale.

Really, what ones?

All fusion reactors I know of plan to use the heat produced to drive turbines that turn generators.

Can we get some cites?


Right now, there are only five ways to manufacture electricity that I know of:

1. Magnets & Metal Coils (either one turning inside the other). Low to Very High power.
2. Solar Power Cells (aka Photovoltaics; photons bombarding a receptive surface; various types). Low power.
3. Thermocouples (the junction of two different metals where there is a difference in temperature across the junction). Very low power.
4. Chemical (Fuel Cells, Batteries). Low to Moderate Power from Batteries, Moderate from Fuel Cells.
5. Betavoltaics (beta particles, high energy electrons, bombarding a semi-conductor). Very Low power.

No, really, Rain, Glistam's right.

He may not have the EXACT Mechanical Details 100% down pat (and I don't know one way or the other), but he IS correct in that they heat the water to make the Steam to turn the Turbines that make the Energy that powers the house that Jack built.......

Shadow Wyrm wrote:Do any of you have a understanding of how nuclear reactors work, and if so, do you have a guess on how much power a reactor in lets say a SAMAS would produce. Basic facts would be great, along with any good geusses.

Explanations about how classic fission power plants operate are useless, as Riftian power plants are, by and large, not fission systems.

Explanations about fusion plants get complicated. Shall I bring in discussion of aneutronic fusion processes? I say, nay. Suffice it to say that conventional fusion processes produce huge waves of fast neutrons that would roast even cockroaches, and they also give off large quantities of gamma-ray spectrum electomagnetic radiation, as if the fast neutrons weren't bad enough.

The bottom line for rifts, fusion power has been perfected beyond all imagination. Miniature and micro-miniature fusion plants are available, they are aneutronic, and MDC shielding stops the gamma-ray EM.

Power conversion from heat to electricity is by ballonium. It just happens.

If you need to know more than, "It can power X", just draw up a list of power plant sizes, and assign outputs, whatever scales you want to have to fit your campaign.

Personally I prefer the type of generalized description given in Merc Ops (see my cite earlier in the topic about the fusion power plant).

Maybe they're using some sort of thermionic converter, or possibly using the fusion plasma as some sort of MHD generator?

we also know, breaching a Rifts Nuclear Battery system for a PA or Robot does not cause fallout, etc...

While a small explosion may occur ( 1d4x10 MD ) to a 10 ft radius is all you get at best.

Most likely Rifts uses the Thermo-nukes model...
With an Updated materials, and better materials to capture the heat to turn into energy they might run on BB-sized fuel rod...

I'm picturing a Fuel Rod the size of a Cigg-lighter's flint-spark lighter part...While the Actual Unit is about the size of a Coke Can totally...
Its minature...but safe.

Rifts ( SA2 ) has Anti-matter sources too ( Universal Legion ) and more in other books...
SoT uses Elementals to power the Iron Juggernauts...

It would have been cool if RIFTS had just used something like "Protoculture" based for the Super-science power source...

Heck, Quantum Sigularities Power Sources would be cool...
If breached make them do as the "Annalilate Spell"... to the Item housing it only though...

RainOfSteel wrote:

Glistam wrote:Currently nuclear reactors use nuclear fission to heat up water at high pressures. This hot water is then run through a heat exchanger where it's heat produces steam. This steam is used to move turbines that are attached to electrical generators.

The reactors in Rifts and other palladium products use a method of fusion I believe that can directly produce electricity. There are currently reactors in development today that will produce similar results, though on a larger scale.

Really, what ones?

All fusion reactors I know of plan to use the heat produced to drive turbines that turn generators.

Can we get some cites?


Right now, there are only five ways to manufacture electricity that I know of:

1. Magnets & Metal Coils (either one turning inside the other). Low to Very High power.
2. Solar Power Cells (aka Photovoltaics; photons bombarding a receptive surface; various types). Low power.
3. Thermocouples (the junction of two different metals where there is a difference in temperature across the junction). Very low power.
4. Chemical (Fuel Cells, Batteries). Low to Moderate Power from Batteries, Moderate from Fuel Cells.
5. Betavoltaics (beta particles, high energy electrons, bombarding a semi-conductor). Very Low power.

The only way I know of to use heat to drive turbines is to have the heat make steam, then make the steam do the work. I say this based on 6 years of practical experience working on nuclear reactors. A quick google search will confirm that the way I listed it is, indeed, how nuclear power currently works. Also, you forgot about piezoelectricity as a method of generating electricity.

As far as the theory behind palladium nuclear power, who knows? And does it really matter in a science fiction/fantasy setting anyway?

Glistam wrote:The only way I know of to use heat to drive turbines is to have the heat make steam, then make the steam do the work. I say this based on 6 years of practical experience working on nuclear reactors. A quick google search will confirm that the way I listed it is, indeed, how nuclear power currently works.

I never said anything else (except that molten metal is proposed for some designs as a substitute for steam).

However, you said (bold face my addition):

Glistam wrote:The reactors in Rifts and other palladium products use a method of fusion I believe that can directly produce electricity. There are currently reactors in development today that will produce similar results, though on a larger scale.

This is what I was talking about. What do you mean by "directly produce electricity"?



And yes, I forgot about piezoelectricity (and had never heard of thermionic converters), so, 7 methods.

Qev wrote:Maybe they're using some sort of thermionic converter, or possibly using the fusion plasma as some sort of MHD generator?

That is also one I hadn't heard of.

Ok, I admit this is only one source, but from here, it says 7 W/sq cm @ 2000K. I guess we'll be looking for something else to run a bot on.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Qev wrote:Maybe they're using some sort of thermionic converter, or possibly using the fusion plasma as some sort of MHD generator?

That is also one I hadn't heard of.

Ok, I admit this is only one source, but from [url=http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1984spte.symp..703F]here[/b], it says 7 W/sq cm @ 2000K. I guess we'll be looking for something else to run a bot on.

"Thermionic converter" sounds like something out of Star Trek (in fact, I'm certain they've used the term), but it IS a real technology.

http://www.cooldictionary.com/words/Thermionic-converter.wikipedia

MHD (Magneto-hydrodynamics) uses the principle of moving charges generating magnetic fields to do work or generate electricity. Since plasma (the product of fusion) is an ionized gas, if you run it through coils, it can induce a current in them. Neato. The 'caterpillar drive' in Hunt for Red October was also an application of MHD technology.

I'm not certain which one, but there is a form of fusion that can produce electricity directly, since one of the fusion products, I believe, is protons. Aha! I think it's Deuterium - Helium 3 fusion:

D + He3 -> He4 (3.6 MeV) + p (14.7 MeV)

You accumulate protons (ie. a positive charge), creating a potential difference (voltage) that allows you to do work. The nice thing is that this reaction is aneutronic, meaning no fast neutrons to make the fusion reactor itself radioactive. And the byproduct is normal, everyday helium (HE4) and a bunch of protons (hydrogen ions). ( I think this is right, but I'm no fusion energy scientist! )

Of course, HE3 is hard to get in significant quantities, here on Earth. It's plentiful in the solar wind, and we figure there's lots of it stored up in the lunar regolith... but since there's no space travel in Rifts, they're screwed that way.

Qev wrote:"Thermionic converter" sounds like something out of Star Trek (in fact, I'm certain they've used the term), but it IS a real technology.

http://www.cooldictionary.com/words/Thermionic-converter.wikipedia

The description above . . .

Does not seem to have anything to do with MHD processes . . . like those listed below. When I was googling for Themionic Processes, a couple of links did mention something about MHD in relation to it, but I'm just wondering, since the link above doesn't explain the apparent association. Or maybe I'm just misinterpreting.

Qev wrote:
MHD (Magneto-hydrodynamics) uses the principle of moving charges generating magnetic fields to do work or generate electricity. Since plasma (the product of fusion) is an ionized gas, if you run it through coils, it can induce a current in them.

It was the thermionic process I hadn't heard of, not MHD. MHD is essentially a magnets and coils variant as far as power generation goes. The generators aren't that effecient, although as add-ons to existing systems, they could raise overall efficiency by better utilizing heat in the existing cooling cycle.

Qev wrote:I'm not certain which one, but there is a form of fusion that can produce electricity directly, since one of the fusion products, I believe, is protons. Aha! I think it's Deuterium - Helium 3 fusion:

D + He3 -> He4 (3.6 MeV) + p (14.7 MeV)

You accumulate protons (ie. a positive charge), creating a potential difference (voltage) that allows you to do work. The nice thing is that this reaction is aneutronic, meaning no fast neutrons to make the fusion reactor itself radioactive. And the byproduct is normal, everyday helium (HE4) and a bunch of protons (hydrogen ions). ( I think this is right, but I'm no fusion energy scientist! )

I was under the impression that there were going to be problems attempting to artificially sustain a reaction like that, but I was only reading a layman's explanation of it.

But as an answer for Rifts, it'll do.

I have nothing to add to this discussion except to say that this:

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:I've worked in a nuclear reactor, it's boring.

Reminded me of this

That's all, carry on...

RainOfSteel wrote:The description above . . .

Does not seem to have anything to do with MHD processes . . .

Oh, sorry... I guess I was kind sloppy. Yeah, thermionic conversion has nothing to do with MHD.

I was under the impression that there were going to be problems attempting to artificially sustain a reaction like that, but I was only reading a layman's explanation of it.

But as an answer for Rifts, it'll do.

Yeah, that type has problems, at theoretical peak output temperature, with energy loss due to bremsstrahlung (I had to copy-and-paste that word!) radiation... moreso than deuterium-deuterium fusion. But it's cleaner.

And hooray for Florence!

Kalinda wrote:I have nothing to add to this discussion except to say that this:

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:I've worked in a nuclear reactor, it's boring.

Reminded me of this

That's all, carry on...

You read Freefall too? I should have known.

What I want to know is how does a nuclear generator of any kind power rockets and jets without any jet fuel? IE a SAMAS. Is there any possible way?

grandmaster z0b wrote:What I want to know is how does a nuclear generator of any kind power rockets and jets without any jet fuel? IE a SAMAS. Is there any possible way?

Not known to OUR current level of Science; I HAVE heard that such Rocket "engines" could be used in Space t propel a Spacecraft with an Ion Stream, but that's about it......

grandmaster z0b wrote:What I want to know is how does a nuclear generator of any kind power rockets and jets without any jet fuel? IE a SAMAS. Is there any possible way?

It's probably just a nuclear jet. Turbines suck in air, it gets super-heated by the nuclear reactor (maybe even to plasma temperatures, but I doubt it), superheated air expands and is expelled out the back, generating thrust.

It obviously wouldn't work in space/vacuum without some sort of onboard fuel source.

Thanks for all the posts, it has hepled me deside what I'm going to do.

Qev wrote:

grandmaster z0b wrote:What I want to know is how does a nuclear generator of any kind power rockets and jets without any jet fuel? IE a SAMAS. Is there any possible way?

It's probably just a nuclear jet. Turbines suck in air, it gets super-heated by the nuclear reactor (maybe even to plasma temperatures, but I doubt it), superheated air expands and is expelled out the back, generating thrust.

It obviously wouldn't work in space/vacuum without some sort of onboard fuel source.

The trouble with this is that it requires that the air that is being sucked into the turbine, and passed throught it, at great speed, be heated by . . . thermal radiation.

The air will not be in the chamber long enough to receive much heat from thermal radiation. I don't think some radiating heat vanes are going to be able to compensate, either (not to mention the drag they'd introduce).

Jet fuel heats the air going through the turbine by burning in it and releasing heat via a dramatic exothermal chemical reaction.


I am thinking of jet engines that could serve for fighters, etc.