Sniping with heavy weapons

[Zer0 Kay]

Now I have never seen any rules for more accurate fire using heavy weapons.

I always let power pilots use any skill that you can develop with a rile, with PA sized weapons that are fired like a sniper rifle. So a boom gun firing a APDS round, could use sniper skill, and if the wanted to and had the slots to spend they could even use the ruloes for sharp shooting

Why, vehicle weapon systems are very accurate. . Tanks, easily hit targets at pretty insane ranges, father then most rifles go. APDS or SABO rounds, are accurate. I’m not really sure, but I would think that a zeroed M1 is pretty close to a MOA of 1 or even .5 at range. Tankers from 3/3 ACR claim to be able to hit a stop sign with a 120mm APDSU at 2.5km or so. Which is pretty good, even with a 50 cal.

Any thoughts.

APDS are Sabot rounds what the heck is a SABO round?

[Zer0 Kay]

I don't recall there being any rules aginst Heavy weapons being used as sniper weapons. They just have to be single shot and capable to be aimed.

[JTwig]

Now I have never seen any rules for more accurate fire using heavy weapons.

I always let power pilots use any skill that you can develop with a rile, with PA sized weapons that are fired like a sniper rifle. So a boom gun firing a APDS round, could use sniper skill, and if the wanted to and had the slots to spend they could even use the ruloes for sharp shooting

Why, vehicle weapon systems are very accurate. . Tanks, easily hit targets at pretty insane ranges, father then most rifles go. APDS or SABO rounds, are accurate. I’m not really sure, but I would think that a zeroed M1 is pretty close to a MOA of 1 or even .5 at range. Tankers from 3/3 ACR claim to be able to hit a stop sign with a 120mm APDSU at 2.5km or so. Which is pretty good, even with a 50 cal.

Any thoughts.

I see no problem with allowing heavy weapon to be used by a sniper. Just remember that most railguns have a greatly reduced damage when not firing burst, usually 1d4 to 1d6 MD per round.

[The Galactus Kid]

...except the almighty boomgun

[Kalinda]

...except the almighty boomgun

Which is one thing that makes glitterboys so nasty.

According to the rules you can't make called shots with burst firing weapons, only single shots. (and now pulse weapons.)

So a SAMAS engaged in a dogfight with a flying titan can't make called shots at it's jet thrusters or wings in order to quickly disable it. the SAMAS is limited to pounding at the main body until it's scrap. same with any of the other giant robots and PA that use railguns, except glitterboys. they can put that 3d6x10 wherever they want it.

[jedi078]

There is documented proof in Carlos N. Hathcock book "Marine Sniper" (or another sniper book) that large weapons have been used for precision shooting, without the aid high tech weapon systems (which is what I define "sniping" is game text wise).

A VC sniper was taking potshots at an artillery base camp from the same spot at diffrent times during the day.

Well HQ sent some snipers to deal with the problem

The Marine snipers set up an arty piece to fire at the VC snipers firing spot (without any shots to zero the piece in) and instructed the arty crew to just pull the lanaryd to fire the arty piece next time the VC started taking potshots.

The next time the VC sniper started taking potshots a Marine pulled the arty lanyard and the VC sniper was no more. All they found was clothing and pieces of his rifle. It have been over kill but, "One shot still resulted in One Kill"

[Dr. Doom III]

I don't recall there being any rules aginst Heavy weapons being used as sniper weapons. They just have to be single shot and capable to be aimed.

Of course thay would need to be weapons that do not get the Weapons Systems bonus.

[jedi078]

I think Carlos N. Hathcock has the longest sniper shot on recored with a .50 caliber rifle at 2500 yards.

The first .50 snipier rifles were M2HB machine gun with scopes on them (I think).

Barrett Firearms makes the ones used by U.S. forces today.

They even have an XM-109 25mm sniper rifle in the works.

[Jefffar]

I think Carlos N. Hathcock has the longest sniper shot on recored with a .50 caliber rifle at 2500 yards.

The first .50 snipier rifles were M2HB machine gun with scopes on them (I think).

Barrett Firearms makes the ones used by U.S. forces today.

They even have an XM-109 25mm sniper rifle in the works.

The longest recorded sniper kill shot held by a team of Canadian snipers supporting Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan.

The Payload Rifle is not using a tranditional 25 mm cannon round, isntead it is firing a 25 mm OCSW projectile (the gun that will replace both the .40 and the 40 mm high velocity grenade launceher). There are guns firing 20 mm cannon rounds in existence, though their effective range is less than that of the .50.

The ones that make me go hmmm are the 14.5 mm rifles, approximately twice the muzzle energy of a .50 and the Steyr 15.2 mm APFSDS weapon. That last weapon is probably the ultimate limit that a man portable weapon will get for armour penetration without resorting to explosive projectiles until we switch to railguns.

However, anti-materiel rifles (the proper term for these super heavy sniping weapons) are still precision engineered tools. They are built for the precise delivery of that single shot at long range.

Sniping with other man portable heavy weapons would be pretty damn difficult (unless they were subjected to heavy modifications and firing selected batches of ammo). Not impossible, but difficult. Especially in the case of any weapon intended to engage an area target.

[jedi078]

The longest recorded sniper kill shot held by a team of Canadian snipers supporting Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan.

Thanks for the heads up, what weapon were they using?


And since we are on the subject of sniping shouldn't the "Sniper" skill add bonuses to several other skills much like the Hunting skill does?

For example the "Sniper" skill should/could have the following bonuses
+2 to strike at level one and additional +1 to strike at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, and 15 (this makes you a more feared/respected sniper at higher levels)
+4% to the Prowl skill
+5% to the Inteligence, Detect Concelment, Land Navigation skills
+10% to the Camoflage skills

[Jefffar]

They were using a .50, I think one of the McMillian models, maybe the Barrett.

Our government does its best not to make the story well known.

[jedi078]

They were using a .50, I think one of the McMillian models, maybe the Barrett.

Our government does its best not to make the story well known.

Well distance/speed records are likely to be surpassed eventully.

[Shorty Lickens]

I allow sniping with heavy single-shot weapons.

http://cain7.worldbreak.com/tsaheavy.htm

About halfway down the page is an itm called the TSA-250 slammer MLA.
Its a single slug rail gun. I treat it like the rail gun from Quake 2 or Red Faction.
It seems to me this weapon should be extremely accurate within its max range and my PC's can snipe with it. Provided they are strong enough or use a bipod or tripod.

[Jefffar]

I think we are misusing the term sniping.

Snipers are not only accurate marksmen, they also are masters of stealth and intellegence gathering.

What we are talking about is feats of marksmanship with heavy weapons, not real sniping.

[Zer0 Kay]

I think we are misusing the term sniping.

Snipers are not only accurate marksmen, they also are masters of stealth and intellegence gathering.

What we are talking about is feats of marksmanship with heavy weapons, not real sniping.

Gee I thought we were talking about what can be used with the sniper skill. Last I checked all that was, was a marksman skill. It doesn't include a prowl or anything else a sniper does.

[Zer0 Kay]

The longest recorded sniper kill shot held by a team of Canadian snipers supporting Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan.

Thanks for the heads up, what weapon were they using?


And since we are on the subject of sniping shouldn't the "Sniper" skill add bonuses to several other skills much like the Hunting skill does?

For example the "Sniper" skill should/could have the following bonuses
+2 to strike at level one and additional +1 to strike at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, and 15 (this makes you a more feared/respected sniper at higher levels)
+4% to the Prowl skill
+5% to the Inteligence, Detect Concelment, Land Navigation skills
+10% to the Camoflage skills

YES

[Jefffar]

I think we are misusing the term sniping.

Snipers are not only accurate marksmen, they also are masters of stealth and intellegence gathering.

What we are talking about is feats of marksmanship with heavy weapons, not real sniping.

Gee I thought we were talking about what can be used with the sniper skill. Last I checked all that was, was a marksman skill. It doesn't include a prowl or anything else a sniper does.

Which brings us to problem number 2 . . .

[Zer0 Kay]

I think we are misusing the term sniping.

Snipers are not only accurate marksmen, they also are masters of stealth and intellegence gathering.

What we are talking about is feats of marksmanship with heavy weapons, not real sniping.

Gee I thought we were talking about what can be used with the sniper skill. Last I checked all that was, was a marksman skill. It doesn't include a prowl or anything else a sniper does.

Which brings us to problem number 2 . . .

I'm missing something aren't I? Does this mean I need a thwak?

[Jefffar]

I'm missing something aren't I? Does this mean I need a thwak?[/quote]

Because you asked for it

Bu the point I was tossing out is the Sniper Skill is badly misdefined, miscategorized and otherwise messed up in Palladium books.

[Blight]

Which brings up the point a sniper rifle is tradionaly a heaver weapon, (there are some outstanding exceptions) 7.62 and up. In the world of Rifts the best standard sniper rifle i find is the shamarrian Rail gun. Had a light borge who had one for years. Range 6000' after comes a +2 after some modification came de made +4 to hit and dose 2d6x10 damage.

[Jefffar]

If it weren't for the fact that it's almsot impossible to get one, keep it,a nd keep it loaded, I'd agree with you on the Shemarrian.

Personally, as a heavy sniper weapon I like the I-11 Long Gun.

More traditional sniper weapons I think some of the best are the JA-series rifles and Wilk's weapons. The NG and Triax "snipers" are nothing to write home about.

[Blight]

Wilks dose have soon great weapons but call me antiquated but i love a slug thower. Tho a laser would be a suburb sniper weapon there damage if not enough in the rifts world to get that cofirmed kill on anything but a soft target. (We define any mdc as hard target in our game soft targets as sdc) To kill a target in armor you need a head shot and you have to get past that ungodly amount of MDC that is put in heads and helmet. The south american anti-tank laser gets the job done but is just not cost effective. (One E-clip a shot....the heck with that)

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm missing something aren't I? Does this mean I need a thwak?

Because you asked for it

Bu the point I was tossing out is the Sniper Skill is badly misdefined, miscategorized and otherwise messed up in Palladium books.[/quote]

Oh well then I didn't need the thwak. Your right though, I recall my old game group actually made it into a HtH type skill.

[Zer0 Kay]

If it weren't for the fact that it's almsot impossible to get one, keep it,a nd keep it loaded, I'd agree with you on the Shemarrian.

Personally, as a heavy sniper weapon I like the I-11 Long Gun.

More traditional sniper weapons I think some of the best are the JA-series rifles and Wilk's weapons. The NG and Triax "snipers" are nothing to write home about.

Why does everyone put the hate on the ATL-7? It does decent damage has good range and is definately single shot.

[Blight]

If it weren't for the fact that it's almsot impossible to get one, keep it,a nd keep it loaded, I'd agree with you on the Shemarrian.

Personally, as a heavy sniper weapon I like the I-11 Long Gun.

More traditional sniper weapons I think some of the best are the JA-series rifles and Wilk's weapons. The NG and Triax "snipers" are nothing to write home about.

Why does everyone put the hate on the ATL-7? It does decent damage has good range and is definitely single shot.

Oh no i don't hate the gun it's great. IMO It's under powered for it's deception It' emptys an E-clip in one shot the power of that beam would be astounding. I just couldn't afford to use it in most of my game.

[jedi078]

To kill a target in armor you need a head shot and you have to get past that ungodly amount of MDC that is put in heads and helmet. The south american anti-tank laser gets the job done but is just not cost effective. (One E-clip a shot....the heck with that)

Use armor penatration rules, and you won't need a BFG to make a sniper kill.

[Dustin Fireblade]

There is a excellent article in Rifter #23 regarding CS snipers.

[Jefffar]

The ATL-7's a great weapon, as anti-armour weapons go.

If you want to use it as a snipe, go ahead, but for thsoe purposes it's big, it's heavy, and you can't do a quick follow up.

Generally I stack up the ATL-7 vs Mini-missile launchers for a comparison, and it does pretty well. Slightly shorter range, but a higher rate of fire (unless you're using a magazine fed MML) and much less of a firing signature.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

There is a excellent article in Rifter #23 regarding CS snipers.

Yes, excellent.

I highly recommend it.

"Silent souls leave laser holes.'

~ Josh

[Jefffar]

I've linked it up tos tuff pleny of times.

My personal fave is a CS MZ 10 with the turret redesigned to have an ATL-7, a Wellington Industries Belt Fed grenade Launcher and a Wilk's Pulse Laser (the last is for minor targets)

[Qev]

Why does everyone put the hate on the ATL-7? It does decent damage has good range and is definitely single shot.

Oh no i don't hate the gun it's great. IMO It's under powered for it's deception It' emptys an E-clip in one shot the power of that beam would be astounding. I just couldn't afford to use it in most of my game.

Maybe it's just savagely inefficient?

[grandmaster z0b]

"Silent souls leave laser holes.'

~ Josh

Sorry, what does this mean? I've seen it in someone's sig before and it makes no sense to me. What's a silent soul? What does it have to do with lasers?

[Zer0 Kay]

If it weren't for the fact that it's almsot impossible to get one, keep it,a nd keep it loaded, I'd agree with you on the Shemarrian.

Personally, as a heavy sniper weapon I like the I-11 Long Gun.

More traditional sniper weapons I think some of the best are the JA-series rifles and Wilk's weapons. The NG and Triax "snipers" are nothing to write home about.

Why does everyone put the hate on the ATL-7? It does decent damage has good range and is definately single shot.

One shot when using an E-Clip.

Somewhere, I forget where, there's basically a backpack mounted powerpack that functions as a 6 e-clip reserve. Combine that with the ATL-7 and it goes from single-shot to 6 shot.

The CAF in Phaseworld have a power pack equivalent to 10 clips.

[Dustin Fireblade]

"Silent souls leave laser holes.'

~ Josh

Sorry, what does this mean? I've seen it in someone's sig before and it makes no sense to me. What's a silent soul? What does it have to do with lasers?

That would likely be mine, since I've been playing in a CS TAG play by email game GM'ed by the author of the TAG article.

AdeptPaladin has it right though.

[Dustin Fireblade]

"Silent souls leave laser holes.'

~ Josh

Sorry, what does this mean? I've seen it in someone's sig before and it makes no sense to me. What's a silent soul? What does it have to do with lasers?

That would likely be mine, since I've been playing in a CS TAG play by email game GM'ed by the author of the TAG article.

AdeptPaladin has it right though.

I found that CS TAG online.. wasn't sure if they had made it into a Rifter or not though.

Whoa...where did you find that at? If you can pm me the link I'll forward it to John Stevens, the author of the Rifter article. I'm pretty sure he would like to check it out.

[Zer0 Kay]

The ATL-7's a great weapon, as anti-armour weapons go.

If you want to use it as a snipe, go ahead, but for thsoe purposes it's big, it's heavy, and you can't do a quick follow up.

Generally I stack up the ATL-7 vs Mini-missile launchers for a comparison, and it does pretty well. Slightly shorter range, but a higher rate of fire (unless you're using a magazine fed MML) and much less of a firing signature.

Important parts:
1. Silent by canon
2. If you put some RL in it the beam is invisible to the eye unless it's being shot at you or going through dense particulate matter (smoke, fog etc)... depending on the wavelength. Hell I'd try to make the laser UV or IR anyway.
3. Due to the damage there is likely going to be a hole through the target. If so the attackers now have two possible directions to look for you.
4. Due to the no recoil canon rule there should be no "back and to the left, back and to the left, back and to the left" so the body would just slump. Now which way was he standing when that hole was put through him?
5. Get a CAF power pack or the one the CS now sells that is like 6 clips and there you go.

[Zer0 Kay]

Why does everyone put the hate on the ATL-7? It does decent damage has good range and is definitely single shot.

Oh no i don't hate the gun it's great. IMO It's under powered for it's deception It' emptys an E-clip in one shot the power of that beam would be astounding. I just couldn't afford to use it in most of my game.

Maybe it's just savagely inefficient?

:shock: on a vehicle hooked to a power supply??? How would that be inefficient? Fire once per round and does same as boomgun (I think, too lazy to look up right now)... hey great idea. New GB, has two BG style mounts on both sides of pack instead of one. (I know you see where I'm going with this.) One mount carries the BG (over the right shoulder) the other carries the ATL-7 for use on all non-Laser Resistant units.

[Blight]

i think he was talking power consummation, when he said "savagely inefficient" and he's right one E-clip i think would have much greater out-put. But given the description of south america's level of tec it fits the story.

[Zer0 Kay]

i think he was talking power consummation, when he said "savagely inefficient" and he's right one E-clip i think would have much greater out-put. But given the description of south america's level of tec it fits the story.

But again if it's hooked into a PA or Vehicle/Giant Robot power supply it won't matter.

[Jefffar]

Well, let's see about energy efficiency:

Laser Rifle, 3D6 MD per blast, 20 shot clip, if it empties the clip on full auto (the only way to drain it in a short span, back when lasers could do full auto of course) it's 3D6x10 damage

That's about what the ATL-7 does.

Yes if you go one shot at a time from the standard rifle you get ultimately higher damage, but 1) that takes more time and 2) gives the opposition more chances to shoot back.

[Qev]

Well, let's see about energy efficiency:

Laser Rifle, 3D6 MD per blast, 20 shot clip, if it empties the clip on full auto (the only way to drain it in a short span, back when lasers could do full auto of course) it's 3D6x10 damage

That's about what the ATL-7 does.

Yes if you go one shot at a time from the standard rifle you get ultimately higher damage, but 1) that takes more time and 2) gives the opposition more chances to shoot back.

Well, bear in mind that the laser rifle, firing full auto, is going to miss an awful lot of those shots. The ATL-7 is firing an entire e-clip in one aimed shot, which should all impact the target... should it not do more damage?

[Zer0 Kay]

Thats the damage roll, its just xD6x7 because it misses some, 7 shots hit out of a 20 round e-clip...

Although you have a point, you can't do an aimed shot at full auto...

ATL-7 to the brain...

and kick to the head nyah nyah

[Jefffar]

Uhm ATL-7 to the brain? Theres no head to kick or eyes to poke.

[Zer0 Kay]

Uhm ATL-7 to the brain? Theres no head to kick or eyes to poke.

Yeah there is... it just wouldn't matter. Haven't you ever heard the Radio skit? One ot the boots to the head doesn't sound like it was the one on the shoulder.

[Shorty Lickens]

[quote="Lord_Coake"]Even better, combine sniping skill with the C27.

Nothing like a pinpoint plasma blast from 488km away.[/quote]

Umm, you may wanna reread that statistic.
I just checked the book and it says the C27 has a range of 488 METERS.
You should probably just stick to the imperial standard and go with 1600 feet.

[Mack]

Even better, combine sniping skill with the C27.

Nothing like a pinpoint plasma blast from 488km away.

Umm, you may wanna reread that statistic.
I just checked the book and it says the C27 has a range of 488 METERS.
You should probably just stick to the imperial standard and go with 1600 feet.

The typo "488km" was repeated for over ten years, in many books, and many printings.

[Zer0 Kay]

Why does everyone put the hate on the ATL-7? It does decent damage has good range and is definitely single shot.

Oh no i don't hate the gun it's great. IMO It's under powered for it's deception It' emptys an E-clip in one shot the power of that beam would be astounding. I just couldn't afford to use it in most of my game.

Maybe it's just savagely inefficient?

:shock: on a vehicle hooked to a power supply??? How would that be inefficient? Fire once per round and does same as boomgun (I think, too lazy to look up right now)... hey great idea. New GB, has two BG style mounts on both sides of pack instead of one. (I know you see where I'm going with this.) One mount carries the BG (over the right shoulder) the other carries the ATL-7 for use on all non-Laser Resistant units.

inefficiency would be a factor of how much of the input energy is converted to output energy. If it was only converting 30% of the E-clips energy to output that would be pretty inefficient, but usable.

That's fine but again... who cares when it's connected to a nuke power supply? Still though I'd consider a burst (when you could still do that) more innefficient than the ATL's beam. I mean how many shots "miss" even though there is no kick and they would be sent out almost instantaniously.