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what book cantains the w.p. paired firearms?

Bill Coffin's excellent Systems Failure does.

whats the rules on that...?

its not in the new west book, i just checked...
all thats in there is bolas, whip and sharpshooting

jade von delioch wrote:whats the rules on that...?

Off the top of my head, one can wield two one-handed firearms without penalty. There's a penalty for rifles and the like (-6 to strike, I think?), and machineguns, rocket launchers, etc. can't be used paired at all. In other words, it works pretty much like one would expect.

jade von delioch wrote:its not in the new west book, i just checked...
all thats in there is bolas, whip and sharpshooting

I could be wrong, but I don't think any book has it. It's a special OCC ability.

Dark Brandon wrote:

jade von delioch wrote:its not in the new west book, i just checked...
all thats in there is bolas, whip and sharpshooting

I could be wrong, but I don't think any book has it. It's a special OCC ability.

It can't be taken as a skill, it's a specific O.C.C. ability. Only certain classes can attain it. Yes, you can duel wield your pistols without the rule, but i'd cut all shooting bonuses, charge you two melee attacks, and make you roll a strike twice, one for each gun.

I recently tried shooting duel pistols. The safest place for a person to be when I did that was within my aim. That's how difficult it is.

jade von delioch wrote:what book cantains the w.p. paired firearms?

it's not a WP, it's an OCC ability possessed by a few classes and still fewer others can buy it as an extra skill, but only if they say they can specifically.

Res Sin Kai wrote:It can't be taken as a skill, it's a specific O.C.C. ability. Only certain classes can attain it. Yes, you can duel wield your pistols without the rule, but i'd cut all shooting bonuses, charge you two melee attacks, and make you roll a strike twice, one for each gun.

I recently tried shooting duel pistols. The safest place for a person to be when I did that was within my aim. That's how difficult it is.

That being said, characters proficiently wielding a pair of automatic pistols or SMGs are pretty damn cool. Realistic or not, if you're wanting a more cinematic game (which is what Kevin seems to be gearing Rifts towards nowadays), then I'd say let players take it as a skill if they want it and it fits their character.

If balance is an issue, you could always limit it to martial-oriented types and/or require two skill choices to pick it. Regardless, given the confused state of the Palladium ruleset, I wouldn't let trivialities rule your game.

maasenstodt wrote:That being said, characters proficiently wielding a pair of automatic pistols or SMGs are pretty damn cool. Realistic or not, if you're wanting a more cinematic game (which is what Kevin seems to be gearing Rifts towards nowadays), then I'd say let players take it as a skill if they want it and it fits their character.

Correct. As difficult as it would be IRL, this isn't RL we're talking about. As a techniqual answer, no, PC's may not have dual pistols unless they have a specific OCC.

The tech answer out of the way, personally, I have and would allow someone to take it at the cost of 4 skills. Remember, Most OCC's that do have dual pistols have very very small skill selections. So to keep it fair to those OCC's who only rely on those abilities (Like gun slingers), with their weak skill selection, I"d make it costly to obtain.

Right now I go with 4. W.P. Pistol for left hand, W.P. Pistol for Right, W.P. Paired modern for left hand, W.P. paired modern for right hand.

In canon using firearms as paired weapons is a class ability for a limited number of OCCs.

That having been said, I allow it as a WP for Men-at-Arms type characters at the cost of one skill, other OCCs must spend two slots to get it. The character must still buy the WP for the gun they wish to use, and paired weapons can only be used for guns that can normally be wielded one handed. In the alterative if a character has the special ability 'ambidextrous' they can use any one handed weapon paired, including guns.

technically, it's not just an OCC ability, Any Character who can Select WP Sharpshooting can select dual pistoling as their Sharpshooting Trick, as there are six of them..
It's NOT just a specific ability. the OCC ability gives Extra attacks and bonus initiative.

Gomen_Nagai wrote:technically, it's not just an OCC ability, Any Character who can Select WP Sharpshooting can select dual pistoling as their Sharpshooting Trick, as there are six of them..
It's NOT just a specific ability. the OCC ability gives Extra attacks and bonus initiative.

what sharpshooting ability is that?

I have recently started using parried weapons to encompass all weapons.

For example HTH: Commando and Assassin both give a character parried weapons at 1st level.

I do apply penalties when dual wielding pistols (and SMGs if your PS is high enough, or you’re in Power Armor)

-2 to strike with your dominant hand and -3 with your non-dominant hand (ambidextrous persons get -1 with both hands).

Gomen_Nagai wrote:Any Character who can Select WP Sharpshooting can select dual pistoling as their Sharpshooting Trick, as there are six of them..

Please explain that.

in Rifts Ultimate paired firearms is available as a wp for any men of arms occ. its on page 327 as well as wp quickdraw. the abilities it grants are slightly less than for real 'slingers but respectable.

the sharp shooter trick that lets you fight with 2 guns, Duh. The power gets turned into a full occ ability in a later book.

newbee2004 wrote:No I mean under WP paired weapons in RUE has firearms in it too.

Well, sort of...
Actually, it says (p. 327) "WP Paired Weapons is designed for melee weapons like knives, swords, clubs, ets., not guns."
But it does list the penalties for the average person trying to fire paired guns: -2 to strike with the regular hand, and -6 with the off-hand.

I like this ruling because realistically anybody can try to fire paired guns... it's just harder to aim.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
I like this ruling because realistically anybody can try to fire paired guns... it's just harder to aim.

and with enough time on the range firing two weapons at the same time/target(s) they can become profcient at doing so.

W.P. Paired Weapons does appear in RUE.

Mack wrote:

Gomen_Nagai wrote:Any Character who can Select WP Sharpshooting can select dual pistoling as their Sharpshooting Trick, as there are six of them..

Please explain that.

One of the "tricks" you can choose when you take W.P.: Sharpshooting is the use of two firearms simultaneously. However, there are restrictions on whom can take the W.P. in the first place.

Gomen_Nagai wrote:the sharp shooter trick that lets you fight with 2 guns, Duh. The power gets turned into a full occ ability in a later book.

Sharpshooting makes no mention of of that. The six abilities are

fire a two handed weapon with one hand without penalty

shoot over shoulder

shoot while riding

Shoot while on head

dodge and shoot

and ricochet shot.

and with enough time on the range firing two weapons at the same time/target(s) they can become profcient at doing so.

Correct. But you will always have those penalties, but getting higher in level with a higher bonus to strike will help offset those penalties.

As it stands, only a few OCC's can do it effectivly without penalties.

Borast wrote:

Mack wrote:

Gomen_Nagai wrote:Any Character who can Select WP Sharpshooting can select dual pistoling as their Sharpshooting Trick, as there are six of them..

Please explain that.

One of the "tricks" you can choose when you take W.P.: Sharpshooting is the use of two firearms simultaneously. However, there are restrictions on whom can take the W.P. in the first place.

I do not believe sharpshooting has that ability.

Dark Brandon wrote:

Borast wrote:

Mack wrote:

Gomen_Nagai wrote:Any Character who can Select WP Sharpshooting can select dual pistoling as their Sharpshooting Trick, as there are six of them..

Please explain that.

One of the "tricks" you can choose when you take W.P.: Sharpshooting is the use of two firearms simultaneously. However, there are restrictions on whom can take the W.P. in the first place.

I do not believe sharpshooting has that ability.

You are correct sir, WP: sharpshooting does not include the ability to use paired firearms, that ability is only available to a few OCCs.

I believe what is confusing people is that in the writeups of those OCCs, the ability 'paired guns' is listed right next to the sharpshooter abilitys

C.R.A.F.T. wrote:Paired shooting should be a skill to be learned just like any other.

I would put a restriction on it that only characters with a PP of 15 or higher and ME of 12 or higher can attempt the feat.

The high PP is just for hand-eye coordination and the high ME is for situational awareness (knowing you surroundings in an ever-changing battle).

I don't mind it being a learned skill. Though you should take into account the limited number of skills OCC's that do get the dual pistol abilities and should ajust the skill as such.

In otherwords, I think if you are gonna allow someone to take it, you should make it cost a whole heaping of skills, and not just limit it to physical requirments. afterall, if I could play somethign like a cyber-knight and still get away with playing many of the benifits of a gunslinger, why would one want to play the gunslinger?

jedi078 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
I like this ruling because realistically anybody can try to fire paired guns... it's just harder to aim.

and with enough time on the range firing two weapons at the same time/target(s) they can become profcient at doing so.

Sure.
If they switch to a Man At Arms OCC.
Or if they level up enough that the penalties are offset by the bonuses.

Kalinda wrote:I believe what is confusing people is that in the writeups of those OCCs, the ability 'paired guns' is listed right next to the sharpshooter abilitys

You could very well be right.

That plus the fact that I haven't read New West or the other book(s) that deal with it in a while - except the "compiled" book, and I find it generally useless. The lay-out leaves much to be desired. But, then it was never planned on being a stand-alone book, neh?