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C.R.A.F.T. wrote:Can you have a high tech society that is fundamentally illiterate?

I don't think so.

In order to maintain a level of technology, or advance, you need people who can build on what has happened in the past.

Apprenticeships can only go so far. It may work well in an underdeveloped society, but not in a world where technology permeates every bit of living.

The higher tech the society, the less literacy is required.
After a certain point, all you have to do is tell the computer what you want and let the computer build it.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

C.R.A.F.T. wrote:Can you have a high tech society that is fundamentally illiterate?

I don't think so.

In order to maintain a level of technology, or advance, you need people who can build on what has happened in the past.

Apprenticeships can only go so far. It may work well in an underdeveloped society, but not in a world where technology permeates every bit of living.

The higher tech the society, the less literacy is required.
After a certain point, all you have to do is tell the computer what you want and let the computer build it.

Correct. Perfect example: Star Trek TNG....sure they are all literate but they wouldn't have to be...the computer can read to you, you can dictate to the computer, and it can give you verbal information on any ships system you require....
COMPUTER: "Jordy, the containment field on antimatter reactor #1 is currently running at only 86% efficiency "
Jordy: "Computer, re-align the phase modulators to .001 degrees"
COMPUTER: "Sir, Containment field is now at 98% efficiency ."

Maintenence of current tech is more of a hands on thing and with computers that can diagnose porblems and even suggest soulutions there is little need for reading and writing.

Then there is the opposite of very high tech. The lower (lowest) tech societies do not require literacy either.

It is the middle ground where tech is being developed that requires the masses to be literate.

The knowledge needed to advance our high tech society is allready beyond the rank and file even if they are literate.

We are already dependant on an edcuated elite to design and improve our technology. Much of technology allready does not require literacy to operate, soon none of it will require literacy.

Not everybody needs written instructions or entertainment... when you can do things by audio-video (video conference vs IRC) (movies vs books) media, or command the machines by voice or through simply iconized symbols, you stop needing any true reading skills...

Let's face it, even OUR modern society is facing a much higher illiteracy rate than we like to recognize, and many who are formally literate never really read anyway... so with 150 years of technology advance on us, there's no reason to deny that the CS could get by with less than 20% literacy.

AdeptPaladin wrote:We're already headed that way;
The advent of spell-checking and grammar checking has made knowing how to spell or write sentences accurately less important.

untrue... a lot of mistakes can pass through those, because they match existing things... the checker may pass you, but not the guy at the other end.

Read Triplet by Timothy Zahn for a perfect example of a high-tech society that is funadmentally illiterate.

Zerebus wrote:Yes, yes you can.

Just look at what technology is doing to the grammar of today's youth.

Leet speak is only the beginning of the downhill slide.

| R3S3|\|T T|-|/\T

I believe that any society that is going to develop and maintain a high technology level needs to be literate. Yah, Jordie can tell the computer to realign the whatever, but in order to know what to realign it to he would have to be literate, in order to do that thing know as learning.

mindcrime, you get the dunce cap for leetness, I resent your making my reading unnecessarily difficult

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:Read Triplet by Timothy Zahn for a perfect example of a high-tech society that is funadmentally illiterate.

I will as soon as I download the new voice software for Adobe Acrobat where it reads you the book.





But seriously, as long as there is a literate elite, the rest of a civilization can be illiterate but high tech.

~ Josh

as soon as the elites die off, so would the society ... So while You can be iliterate the second those machines fail the society dies.

Killer Cyborg wrote:The higher tech the society, the less literacy is required.
After a certain point, all you have to do is tell the computer what you want and let the computer build it.

At that point, the computers control the people, and what you have is self-satisfied puppets running around in a zoo instead of people in a society.

AdeptPaladin wrote:We're already headed that way;
The advent of spell-checking and grammar checking has made knowing how to spell or write sentences accurately less important.

I read various mailing lists, usenet groups, and message boards.

I assure you, I am well aware of the problem you describe.

I've been spending the last few days monitoring and posting to some database newsgroups. The biggest trouble I have in answering people's questions is in figuring out what on Earth they are talking about amidst a jumble of misspelled words, cut-off thoughts, and incomplete information.

Wait, it's like that around here sometimes, too.

---------------------------------------

Ken Burns' documentary, The Civil War, was filled with readings from the diaries and letters of the people of the time. It seemed to be, upon hearing these writings, that the most average man or woman of the US of 1860 could write ordinary ramblings that equal the best work of today's writers (or, at least it seemed so in my opinion).

---------------------------------------

However, this does not change the fact that among those who drive* and build the technology of the world around us, literacy is the absolute and unequivocal key that allows it all to happen. Colleges and Universities are filled with books. Students spend large sums buying some of them and large periods of time studying those purchases and the many more they will never own in the obligatory giant library on campus.

A lack of this material would collapse the entire learning process.

Worse, what about the law? The law may be insane, but what little functionality remains to us is really all we have that holds are society together (those who doubt this need merely look at New Orleans a short while ago), and the size of the written word on the subject is immense. Saying we should just junk it all is as ridiculous as saying we should always trust . . . oops, I'm going in the wrong directly on that one, I'll just stop there.

* No, I am not referring to vehicular operation.

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I suppose, in a higher tech universe, where DNI is the norm, and implant learning is everyday, that literacy will become unnecessary as everything you want is neatly deposited into your mind without effort. Except that people would be able to become literate in a few moments, at will, via the technology, and so everyone would be. But even this aspect of possible future life is explored in SF literature. John C. Wright's The Golden Age trilogy sees this. In the second novel, the hero of the story is forced to uninstall scores of programs from the computer grown into his brain. Intelligence enhancers, secretaries, it all had to go. Finally, for the first time in his entire life, he had to think on his own. It wasn't a pretty picture, either. Quite a commentary on the possibilities, I rather thought.

Jefffar wrote:The knowledge needed to advance our high tech society is allready beyond the rank and file even if they are literate.

We are already dependant on an edcuated elite to design and improve our technology. Much of technology allready does not require literacy to operate, soon none of it will require literacy.

Well, yes, in large part*. But just because that technology will not require literacy to [b]operate[/be] does not mean that it will not require literacy to create (or, at least it will for a while to come, see my previous post).

* Civilian Consumer Technology.

Zerebus wrote:Yes, yes you can.

Just look at what technology is doing to the grammar of today's youth.

Leet speak is only the beginning of the downhill slide.

I kind of view "leet speak" as the precursor to Techno-Can.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The higher tech the society, the less literacy is required.
After a certain point, all you have to do is tell the computer what you want and let the computer build it.

At that point, the computers control the people, and what you have is self-satisfied puppets running around in a zoo instead of people in a society.

a) So?
b) Not necessarily. People telling the computers what to do is STILL people in charge of computers, regardless of whether the humans could do the work without the computers.
I constantly tell my computer to do things (by clicking with my mouse, or by typing) and it does them. I don't know how.
Does that somehow make me a "self-satisfied puppet"?

technocan is Technically already existing. Ever tried to read a schematic?

decipher a Maths book?

Understand Physics?


it's not english, it's Code.
technocan is an unspoken language (and they go out of their way to say this in RUE)

Cardiac wrote:

Zerebus wrote:Yes, yes you can.

Just look at what technology is doing to the grammar of today's youth.

Leet speak is only the beginning of the downhill slide.

I kind of view "leet speak" as the precursor to Techno-Can.

:thwak: Techno-can is just technical terms used in blue prints and manuals. Essentially it's being able to read stereo instructions and understand them or view a blueprint and realize what it's for with out reading the little block that says Coalition Deaths Head Transport.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Jefffar wrote:The knowledge needed to advance our high tech society is allready beyond the rank and file even if they are literate.

We are already dependant on an edcuated elite to design and improve our technology. Much of technology allready does not require literacy to operate, soon none of it will require literacy.

Well, yes, in large part*. But just because that technology will not require literacy to [b]operate[/be] does not mean that it will not require literacy to create (or, at least it will for a while to come, see my previous post).

* Civilian Consumer Technology.

Just because a society is illiterate it doesn't mean there isn't a core cadre of literate individuals who are responsible for the creation of their technology and holdign the sum of their learning.

In a Post-apoc high tech society this maeks even more sense. A core group of surviors who understand the technology well enough to build and maintain it, plus a large mass of illiterate followers who are trained (not taught, but traiend) to operate the technology because teachign them all the operatign principles like we do today woudl take too mcuh time and is unnecissary to the immediate survival. After a couple of generations of this the differneces between the "reads" and the "read-nots" would become more or less institutionalized in the society.

Gomen_Nagai wrote:as soon as the elites die off, so would the society ... So while You can be iliterate the second those machines fail the society dies.

Which is why I said in another thread that the CS should have about 20% literacy rate... you will always need people able to read the manual or to type code... just most people won't be that specialized

Cardiac wrote:

Zerebus wrote:Yes, yes you can.

Just look at what technology is doing to the grammar of today's youth.

Leet speak is only the beginning of the downhill slide.

I kind of view "leet speak" as the precursor to Techno-Can.

wrong... techno can already exists... just try to understand tech folk of scientists talking shop...

leetspeak is used by tech savvy folk, but it's no more than a ludicrous form of slang with no spoken form... it's what people who'd speak slang do when they are stuck with surfing the net.

Gomen_Nagai wrote:technocan is Technically already existing. Ever tried to read a schematic?

decipher a Maths book?

Understand Physics?


it's not english, it's Code.
technocan is an unspoken language (and they go out of their way to say this in RUE)

actually, it does have a spoken form... technician and scientists use it when by mischance they find each other face to face... and normal folk don't understand any better, because knowing the language requires competence in math and tech skills few people have.

A technological, illiterate society would stagnate, I should think. Maybe not immediately, but they'd eventually run into roadblocks. Sure, you have your educated 'elite core', but they don't live forever. How do you replace them?

Certainly not from the illiterate masses, so perhaps you set up special schooling for their descendants, something along those lines? Well... there's no guarantee that the offspring of two geniuses is going to be a genius... or even two intelligent people having particularly intelligent offspring.

A limited education system directed towards a limited number of elites is also going to become limited. There will be fewer new minds, new ideas, new inspirations coming in. Things would become rigid, and new ideas would likely be shunned if they challenged 'established theory'. We see that sort of thing even today, with our generally widely-educated public and relatively open scientific community. I can't see it getting better in a system of 'elites and proles'.

Just my opinion, of course.

Qev wrote:A technological, illiterate society would stagnate, I should think. Maybe not immediately, but they'd eventually run into roadblocks. Sure, you have your educated 'elite core', but they don't live forever. How do you replace them?

Certainly not from the illiterate masses, so perhaps you set up special schooling for their descendants, something along those lines? Well... there's no guarantee that the offspring of two geniuses is going to be a genius... or even two intelligent people having particularly intelligent offspring.

Actually, as far as the CS are concerned, their is a guarentee: Genetic Engineering.

The CS can insure that a given offspring is intelligent.

~ Josh

Qev wrote:A technological, illiterate society would stagnate, I should think. Maybe not immediately, but they'd eventually run into roadblocks. Sure, you have your educated 'elite core', but they don't live forever. How do you replace them?

Certainly not from the illiterate masses, so perhaps you set up special schooling for their descendants, something along those lines? Well... there's no guarantee that the offspring of two geniuses is going to be a genius... or even two intelligent people having particularly intelligent offspring.

A limited education system directed towards a limited number of elites is also going to become limited. There will be fewer new minds, new ideas, new inspirations coming in. Things would become rigid, and new ideas would likely be shunned if they challenged 'established theory'. We see that sort of thing even today, with our generally widely-educated public and relatively open scientific community. I can't see it getting better in a system of 'elites and proles'.

Just my opinion, of course.

make a motion and I'll second it

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:Actually, as far as the CS are concerned, their is a guarentee: Genetic Engineering.

The CS can insure that a given offspring is intelligent.

~ Josh

Assuming that there is an 'intelligence gene' that can be fiddled.

Qev wrote:

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:Actually, as far as the CS are concerned, their is a guarentee: Genetic Engineering.

The CS can insure that a given offspring is intelligent.

~ Josh

Assuming that there is an 'intelligence gene' that can be fiddled.

According to Rifts canon: There is.

~ Josh

Gomen_Nagai wrote:as soon as the elites die off, so would the society ... So while You can be iliterate the second those machines fail the society dies.

So lets forget about killing off the Emperor and little Jojo we'll use a virus bomb that targets the smart genes and makes them stupid. Then they'll stagnate and drift into oblivion

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:According to Rifts canon: There is.

~ Josh

I shudder to think what the Deadboy armor for their hypercephalic genius types looks like.

Qev wrote:

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:According to Rifts canon: There is.

~ Josh

I shudder to think what the Deadboy armor for their hypercephalic genius types looks like.

Would their smart guys be called Braindead Boys?

lonewolfm wrote:I believe that any society that is going to develop and maintain a high technology level needs to be literate. Yah, Jordie can tell the computer to realign the whatever, but in order to know what to realign it to he would have to be literate, in order to do that thing know as learning.

The question is "Can you have a high tech society that is fundamentally illiterate?" Not "Can you create high tech in a society that is fundamentally illiterate?" Additionally, illiterate doesn't mean "uneducated." So neither of your points actually answer the question.

Gomen_Nagai wrote:as soon as the elites die off, so would the society ... So while You can be iliterate the second those machines fail the society dies.

Unless whoever created the society built it so the machines take care of themself. Another moot point.

RainOfSteel wrote:
[SNIP]

---------------------------------------

Ken Burns' documentary, The Civil War, was filled with readings from the diaries and letters of the people of the time. It seemed to be, upon hearing these writings, that the most average man or woman of the US of 1860 could write ordinary ramblings that equal the best work of today's writers (or, at least it seemed so in my opinion).

---------------------------------------

However, this does not change the fact that among those who drive* and build the technology of the world around us, literacy is the absolute and unequivocal key that allows it all to happen. Colleges and Universities are filled with books. Students spend large sums buying some of them and large periods of time studying those purchases and the many more they will never own in the obligatory giant library on campus.

A lack of this material would collapse the entire learning process.

No it wouldn't. There's many different ways of learning something, not limited to reading it in a book.

Worse, what about the law? The law may be insane, but what little functionality remains to us is really all we have that holds are society together (those who doubt this need merely look at New Orleans a short while ago), and the size of the written word on the subject is immense. Saying we should just junk it all is as ridiculous as saying we should always trust . . . oops, I'm going in the wrong directly on that one, I'll just stop there.

* No, I am not referring to vehicular operation.

You don't have to have written word to have law.

---------------------------------------

I suppose, in a higher tech universe, where DNI is the norm, and implant learning is everyday, that literacy will become unnecessary as everything you want is neatly deposited into your mind without effort. Except that people would be able to become literate in a few moments, at will, via the technology, and so everyone would be. But even this aspect of possible future life is explored in SF literature. John C. Wright's The Golden Age trilogy sees this. In the second novel, the hero of the story is forced to uninstall scores of programs from the computer grown into his brain. Intelligence enhancers, secretaries, it all had to go. Finally, for the first time in his entire life, he had to think on his own. It wasn't a pretty picture, either. Quite a commentary on the possibilities, I rather thought.

That's a comment on a bad education process, not whether or not literacy is necessary for a high tech society.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Jefffar wrote:The knowledge needed to advance our high tech society is allready beyond the rank and file even if they are literate.

We are already dependant on an edcuated elite to design and improve our technology. Much of technology allready does not require literacy to operate, soon none of it will require literacy.

Well, yes, in large part*. But just because that technology will not require literacy to [b]operate[/be] does not mean that it will not require literacy to create (or, at least it will for a while to come, see my previous post).

* Civilian Consumer Technology.

Again, just because the society has high technology doesn't mean they're required to create it.

Qev wrote:A technological, illiterate society would stagnate, I should think. Maybe not immediately, but they'd eventually run into roadblocks. Sure, you have your educated 'elite core', but they don't live forever. How do you replace them?

Certainly not from the illiterate masses, so perhaps you set up special schooling for their descendants, something along those lines? Well... there's no guarantee that the offspring of two geniuses is going to be a genius... or even two intelligent people having particularly intelligent offspring.

A limited education system directed towards a limited number of elites is also going to become limited. There will be fewer new minds, new ideas, new inspirations coming in. Things would become rigid, and new ideas would likely be shunned if they challenged 'established theory'. We see that sort of thing even today, with our generally widely-educated public and relatively open scientific community. I can't see it getting better in a system of 'elites and proles'.

Just my opinion, of course.

Again, literacy does not equate to education. There is a difference between the two.

So far I haven't seen any solid basis for the people who are voting no to the question. Kinda surprising given how many people have voted no so far.

RainOfSteel wrote:Ken Burns' documentary, The Civil War, was filled with readings from the diaries and letters of the people of the time. It seemed to be, upon hearing these writings, that the most average man or woman of the US of 1860 could write ordinary ramblings that equal the best work of today's writers (or, at least it seemed so in my opinion).

Not really, the ones that read, "I tink yur moms hot!!!one1111" get discarded over time while the ones that are readable are saved and put into books so people like you and I can see them. Do you think we know even half the plays that were put on in England in the 1600's?



Daniel Stoker

To build from scratch/design Yes. (just try and build a tree house or put up shelves properly...or better yet wire a multi-room stereo...)

to use No. (a trigger is a trigger)

Rimmerdal wrote:To build from scratch/design Yes. (just try and build a tree house or put up shelves properly...or better yet wire a multi-room stereo...)

to use No. (a trigger is a trigger)

Done, done & done....I've done all of those things and none of them requires you to read anything (so long as your stereo wires are color coded & numbers and math are useable by the illiterate )

You can easily learn a trade without reading any "how to" manuals or useing instructions.

Thinyser wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:To build from scratch/design Yes. (just try and build a tree house or put up shelves properly...or better yet wire a multi-room stereo...)

to use No. (a trigger is a trigger)

Done, done & done....I've done all of those things and none of them requires you to read anything (so long as your stereo wires are color coded & numbers and math are useable by the illiterate )

You can easily learn a trade without reading any "how to" manuals or useing instructions.

Weapons and explosive asside that is true, but harder to learn with out a manual.out curiostiy how many swears did you say while wiring that speaker set up? kidding...

to help this guy further what jobs need a manual? (that is if the guy who started this thread doesn't mind....)

C.R.A.F.T. wrote:Can you have a high tech society that is fundamentally illiterate?

I don't think so.

In order to maintain a level of technology, or advance, you need people who can build on what has happened in the past.

Apprenticeships can only go so far. It may work well in an underdeveloped society, but not in a world where technology permeates every bit of living.

Are you familiar with Robotech? In specifict the story of the Macross saga? A society can exist without having the slightest idea of how their high technology items work. However, those citizens also have no hope of fixing them or replacing them when the inevitably fail.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

RainOfSteel wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The higher tech the society, the less literacy is required.
After a certain point, all you have to do is tell the computer what you want and let the computer build it.

At that point, the computers control the people, and what you have is self-satisfied puppets running around in a zoo instead of people in a society.

a) So?
b) Not necessarily. People telling the computers what to do is STILL people in charge of computers, regardless of whether the humans could do the work without the computers.
I constantly tell my computer to do things (by clicking with my mouse, or by typing) and it does them. I don't know how.
Does that somehow make me a "self-satisfied puppet"?

The level of implied involvement is not the same. You cannot tell your computer to build you a new liver, create a symphony to beat Mozart, and plan and manage a spectacular solar system wide celebration for next Tuesday.

Any computing environment with computers smart enough to do what you originally suggested will be run by sentient AIs. And they will be far too smart to be "controlled" involuntarily (I find it more than likely that they'll be able to out think us with ease).

If sentient AIs of such intellect would allow humans to instruct them to do "whatever", and then they carried it out, we humans would undoubtedly be zoo specimens at that point; and you can bet the environment would be sufficiently well managed to ensure that those within the zoo would never realize their position, and would never even think to ask to be released.

Rimmerdal wrote:to help this guy further what jobs need a manual?

Don't matter. If the society is high enough tech, the manuals will be built into computers which feature speech and speech recognition software and the ability to project aesthetically pleasing, simple, animated diagrams.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

RainOfSteel wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The higher tech the society, the less literacy is required.
After a certain point, all you have to do is tell the computer what you want and let the computer build it.

At that point, the computers control the people, and what you have is self-satisfied puppets running around in a zoo instead of people in a society.

a) So?
b) Not necessarily. People telling the computers what to do is STILL people in charge of computers, regardless of whether the humans could do the work without the computers.
I constantly tell my computer to do things (by clicking with my mouse, or by typing) and it does them. I don't know how.
Does that somehow make me a "self-satisfied puppet"?

The level of implied involvement is not the same. You cannot tell your computer to build you a new liver, create a symphony to beat Mozart, and plan and manage a spectacular solar system wide celebration for next Tuesday.

Any computing environment with computers smart enough to do what you originally suggested will be run by sentient AIs. And they will be far too smart to be "controlled" involuntarily (I find it more than likely that they'll be able to out think us with ease).

Not necessarily.
People are always afraid of AIs taking over and going rogue and such, but those are human ambitions.
Computers have no ambitions.

If sentient AIs of such intellect would allow humans to instruct them to do "whatever", and then they carried it out, we humans would undoubtedly be zoo specimens at that point; and you can bet the environment would be sufficiently well managed to ensure that those within the zoo would never realize their position, and would never even think to ask to be released.

Still don't see where you're getting this.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Not necessarily.
People are always afraid of AIs taking over and going rogue and such, but those are human ambitions.
Computers have no ambitions.

Computers as we know them have no ambitions. No one has any idea what a truly sentient program would behave like. I have my doubts that they would harbor malicious intent, but... well, a lot of damage can be done without any malice at all.

If an AI has any sense of self-preservation, you'll probably see some interesting behaviours cropping up.

Yaknow, it would probably make this discussion easier if we decided on exact what level of high technology we're talking about. Is this about 109PA Rifts level technology, or are we talking about cornucopia hypertech societies where even your left toenail has its own AI?

I think a high-tech society can exist and be fundamentally illiterate but research of any kind would be extremely limited. Even with audio records of everything. It's easy(ish) to learn from audio sources, and easy to record information in audio sources, but it's hard to compare information from audio sources directly against each other, which is necessary for most types of research. Try something simple, like making a timeline from two or three different sources, just from having somebody read them to you. Ain't easy.
On another note, I think that using pictograms to represent everything could be considered a written language; there are real-life precidents. But, since written words wouldn't exist until a representation was assigned to them, it could be an excellent method of eliminating certain ideas. Never assign an idea a representation and the idea would only exist in verbal language which (usually) drifts far faster than written languages. With a little government encouragement the word describing the idea could disappear completly. Then without a word to describe the idea, people could not communicate whatever it was to each other. The idea would effectivly cease to exist. Study 1984.
Proficiency in Coalition should be strongly encouraged by the Coalition.

rellik wrote:*cough*unitedstatesofamerica*cough*

We're not 99% Illiterate. Illegitimate is another story

Thinyser wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:To build from scratch/design Yes. (just try and build a tree house or put up shelves properly...or better yet wire a multi-room stereo...)

to use No. (a trigger is a trigger)

Done, done & done....I've done all of those things and none of them requires you to read anything (so long as your stereo wires are color coded & numbers and math are useable by the illiterate )

You can easily learn a trade without reading any "how to" manuals or useing instructions.

If they can write numbers they are partially litterate. Numerate does not mean you can write numbers. "Express yourself in numbers" does not mean that you can write numbers. So according to you if your numerate you can use American, Chinese, Japanese or Korean numbers. Besides complex computations require the use of symbols. So what the CS uses 2(picture of dog) to the (picture of pistol) power (2x^nth power)

C.R.A.F.T. wrote:

Mindcrime wrote:

Zerebus wrote:Yes, yes you can.

Just look at what technology is doing to the grammar of today's youth.

Leet speak is only the beginning of the downhill slide.

| R3S3|\|T T|-|/\T

How sad is it that even I can read that?!?

I don't think that is true Leet it's like wanna be leet so it has a built in redundancy wannabe wannabe.

Lorkinas wrote:

Gomen_Nagai wrote:as soon as the elites die off, so would the society ... So while You can be iliterate the second those machines fail the society dies.

The society wouldnt neccesarly die but it would go through some very rough and hard restructering.

Society of today is so relied on computers its almost scary, even now our children are being tought more things by voice and visual reprenstation that its almost sad. Reading and writing is a important evolution of humans, but with technology comes alot of short cuts and ability to go around the things that take some work to do. Even though most of the people in CS can not read, there technology allows them to function atm even better then if they could read. If the technology ever falls though CS wouldnt be able to sustain itself and would require some major restructering and most likely the current goverent would fall pretty quickly.

If the elites are gone including those who can fix real problems not just patch things up then they'd die.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:To build from scratch/design Yes. (just try and build a tree house or put up shelves properly...or better yet wire a multi-room stereo...)

to use No. (a trigger is a trigger)

Done, done & done....I've done all of those things and none of them requires you to read anything (so long as your stereo wires are color coded & numbers and math are useable by the illiterate )

You can easily learn a trade without reading any "how to" manuals or useing instructions.

If they can write numbers they are partially litterate. Numerate does not mean you can write numbers. "Express yourself in numbers" does not mean that you can write numbers. So according to you if your numerate you can use American, Chinese, Japanese or Korean numbers. Besides complex computations require the use of symbols. So what the CS uses 2(picture of dog) to the (picture of pistol) power (2x^nth power)

BULL **** ..... Don't put words in my mouth please.

According to me it is possible to build and hang a shelf and build a treehouse if you are able to use math and numbers (which according to palladium is not linked to reading and writing LANGUAGE) and hook up a stereo useing color coded wires, WITHOUT being able to read and write. The math for such tasks is simple math and doesn't require any symboles, and even if it did math symbols (in palladium) such as + - / X (as well as all the others) are covered in the related skill not under language skills.

Thinyser wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:To build from scratch/design Yes. (just try and build a tree house or put up shelves properly...or better yet wire a multi-room stereo...)

to use No. (a trigger is a trigger)

Done, done & done....I've done all of those things and none of them requires you to read anything (so long as your stereo wires are color coded & numbers and math are useable by the illiterate )

You can easily learn a trade without reading any "how to" manuals or useing instructions.

If they can write numbers they are partially litterate. Numerate does not mean you can write numbers. "Express yourself in numbers" does not mean that you can write numbers. So according to you if your numerate you can use American, Chinese, Japanese or Korean numbers. Besides complex computations require the use of symbols. So what the CS uses 2(picture of dog) to the (picture of pistol) power (2x^nth power)

BULL **** ..... Don't put words in my mouth please.

According to me it is possible to build and hang a shelf and build a treehouse if you are able to use math and numbers (which according to palladium is not linked to reading and writing LANGUAGE) and hook up a stereo useing color coded wires, WITHOUT being able to read and write. The math for such tasks is simple math and doesn't require any symboles, and even if it did math symbols (in palladium) such as + - / X (as well as all the others) are covered in the related skill not under language skills.

OK OK calm down I'm sorry. You said use I made the bad assumption that it included write, guess that is just as bad as assuming that Numericy's 'express' means you can write numbers. So then you agree in order to be a technological productive member of a nation (meaning you actually have to produce stuff namely technology and will likely need to use complex math) that you couldn't cut it without being litterate. However the average joe could still survive without reading as do many now.

EPIC wrote:here's an interesting thought ... when was the last time you looked at the instruction books that come with oh say a vrc/dvd player? i don't think i've ever done so. yet i can figure out how to work it pretty easily.

i think that being illiterate in a high tech society wouldn't be that big a deal. granted not everyone is illiterate in the CS but i believe the majority are meant to be illiterate as far as the setting goes. when it comes to figureing out how that large hunk of machinery called a samas works, i think that because they grew up with the samas all around them and seeing it being used everyday, they simply take what they know already and apply it the samas directly. same as what we do with vcr/dvd players. i'm not sure on the exact term for that sort of knowledge, but i think it is called world knowledge or working knowledge or something like that (if you know what i'm talking about let me know what the term is, i'm curious).

yeah just like everyone automatically knows how to drive a tank seeing how it operates on the outside allows you to know how it is piloted how?

as an aside ... i have seen children unable to read at any significant level, if at all, work their way through the use of a computer which is far more complicated than a vdr/dvd player. no one actually taught them how it works, they have just been around them and seeing how they are used they figured it out on their own. some of the little buggers could work the computer better than i can! *feels ashamed*

Yeah but they can't manipulate it as well as a person who can read what is supposed to be going on or play any complicated games.

besides as technology increases, the user friendlyness of them does as well. even though the actual tech has become much more complicated.

So why are they still piloting 'cars'? Because there tech base went, for the most part, pre golden age.

but i do agree that if the elite few who have access to mechanical skills and literacy were to dissapear the world would fall apart at the seams. but even in today's modern world where literacy is viewed as a must, if the elite few who build and maintain our technology were to dissapear, i'm sure we'd all be beating rabbits with sticks for food and hiding in caves before to long.

Not true because one of the rest of the masses who simply had a less technical job could pick up the manuals and perform. Oh thanks for calling me elite but we're by no means few.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:To build from scratch/design Yes. (just try and build a tree house or put up shelves properly...or better yet wire a multi-room stereo...)

to use No. (a trigger is a trigger)

Done, done & done....I've done all of those things and none of them requires you to read anything (so long as your stereo wires are color coded & numbers and math are useable by the illiterate )

You can easily learn a trade without reading any "how to" manuals or useing instructions.

If they can write numbers they are partially litterate. Numerate does not mean you can write numbers. "Express yourself in numbers" does not mean that you can write numbers. So according to you if your numerate you can use American, Chinese, Japanese or Korean numbers. Besides complex computations require the use of symbols. So what the CS uses 2(picture of dog) to the (picture of pistol) power (2x^nth power)

BULL **** ..... Don't put words in my mouth please.

According to me it is possible to build and hang a shelf and build a treehouse if you are able to use math and numbers (which according to palladium is not linked to reading and writing LANGUAGE) and hook up a stereo useing color coded wires, WITHOUT being able to read and write. The math for such tasks is simple math and doesn't require any symboles, and even if it did math symbols (in palladium) such as + - / X (as well as all the others) are covered in the related skill not under language skills.

OK OK calm down I'm sorry. You said use I made the bad assumption that it included write, guess that is just as bad as assuming that Numericy's 'express' means you can write numbers. So then you agree in order to be a technological productive member of a nation (meaning you actually have to produce stuff namely technology and will likely need to use complex math) that you couldn't cut it without being litterate. However the average joe could still survive without reading as do many now.

Again this is NOT what I said.

You can be a carpenter or a carpet layer or a tradesperson of many kinds WITHOUT being able to read and write your language so long as you have a grasp of basic math and can use (read and either write or remember) numbers. This is in real life....Palladiums system further seperates math and language and in game its not necessary to know one to know the other. In theory you could know trig and calculus in rifts without knowing how to read and write your own name.

So while in real life I dont think that an illeterate person would be capable of produceing new tech they can probably do many things that require numbers (reading and either remembering or writing them) and basic math, In game this does not necessairly hold true. You might be a computational wonder (advanced math) and can do calculus in you head and can design a new Force Field generator without ever knowing how to write a paragraph explination for the fantastic new device you just designed.

I think they would learn by watching others or as KC (?) put it with nice user-freindly diagrams.

So after a read through Yeah they could be Illiterate and still be high tech.