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Would Phase Weapons be effective against Mechanoids? They don't have much sdc/hp after you get through the psi shields.

GhostKnight wrote:Would Phase Weapons be effective against Mechanoids? They don't have much sdc/hp after you get through the psi shields.

Hm.
Good thought.
I tend to think that they would, but I could see a GM over-ruling it.
The Mechanoid bodies seem to be more a part of them than a seperate piece of armor; they can use psionics through them.
On the other hand, they can survive fine without the mechanical bodies.

I would say no. They are intended to be MDC beings. In the case of Phase Weapons vs. Borgs the Palldium court ruled overwhelmingly in the favor of the Borgs. I think that establishes a precedent, that singular beings are intended to be taken as a whole, and not broken up into their component parts. At least as it relates to Phase Weapons.

If you can convince me that mechanoids are actualy robot pilots and not "one" with the machine. I might consider the argument.

Jesterzzn wrote:I would say no. They are intended to be MDC beings. In the case of Phase Weapons vs. Borgs the Palldium court ruled overwhelmingly in the favor of the Borgs. I think that establishes a precedent, that singular beings are intended to be taken as a whole, and not broken up into their component parts. At least as it relates to Phase Weapons.

If you can convince me that mechanoids are actualy robot pilots and not "one" with the machine. I might consider the argument.

They have life support systems with internal cooling, air filtration and independent oxygen supply. If their containment chamber is breached, they don't live long. They have "whole" bodies, which have become rather weak by themselves due to their reliance on their "robotic bodies" Definitely sounds more like a robot pilot with a cybernetic link rather than an actual "full conversion borg".

That seems to indicate they need a breathable controlled environment to survive in, and that they are not full "borgs" as it were. If they were more like borgs, having a breach shouldn't kill them because they would have direct connections with life support stuff.

Also, don't the higher up Mechanoids actually "get out" of their "robotic bodies" when interacting with the big brain pools on the big ships?

Finally, there is a picture (like 41 of Rifts Sourcebook 2: The Mechanoids) that shows the Mechanoid organism as being less than "integrated" into the mechanical body.

If they are indeed "whole" organisms despite being "cyborgs", and if they are so frail without their mechanical bodies, then it seems a lucky shot with a phase weapon could just cause trouble for the Mechanoids.

I don't know. I think they would still quilify as MDC only while in their shells.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Jesterzzn wrote:I would say no. They are intended to be MDC beings. In the case of Phase Weapons vs. Borgs the Palldium court ruled overwhelmingly in the favor of the Borgs. I think that establishes a precedent, that singular beings are intended to be taken as a whole, and not broken up into their component parts. At least as it relates to Phase Weapons.

If you can convince me that mechanoids are actualy robot pilots and not "one" with the machine. I might consider the argument.

*Plays a dirge for logic.*

Where do you think it died? Or should I begin a jeremiad to your lack of explanation in your platitudinal response?

Do phase weapons work through power armor and robot vehicles?

Killer Cyborg wrote:Do phase weapons work through power armor and robot vehicles?

Yes. So we have to figure out if mechanoids are borgs or robots with pilots. I am almost positive Kevin calls them borgs, but I might be wrong.

Jesterzzn wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Do phase weapons work through power armor and robot vehicles?

Yes. So we have to figure out if mechanoids are borgs or robots with pilots. I am almost positive Kevin calls them borgs, but I might be wrong.

He refers to them multiple times a "cyborgs" but I don't think he ever calls them "Borgs".

There is one other thing to consider about, size of the mechanoid beings compared to their cyborg/robot bodies.
The mechanoids themselves are organic and have come to rely on their machine bodies, but still have their own (if not poorly developed) bodies. Shooting at a Mechanoid with a phase weapon should be made something like playing a game of darts where only a bull's eye would count.

Maybe make it to where a phase weapon only hits the squishy filling on a natural 20, and otherwise it misses the lucky bundle of flesh inside.

If someone "knows" where inside a certain type of 'robotic shell' where the flesh is (say from taking apart a Runner before), then maybe allow a called shot at -4 to attempt to get a phase weapon shot to pass through the right part of the robotic shell to hit the mechanoid lifeform itself.

R Ditto wrote:There is one other thing to consider about, size of the mechanoid beings compared to their cyborg/robot bodies.
The mechanoids themselves are organic and have come to rely on their machine bodies, but still have their own (if not poorly developed) bodies. Shooting at a Mechanoid with a phase weapon should be made something like playing a game of darts where only a bull's eye would count.

Maybe make it to where a phase weapon only hits the squishy filling on a natural 20, and otherwise it misses the lucky bundle of flesh inside.

If someone "knows" where inside a certain type of 'robotic shell' where the flesh is (say from taking apart a Runner before), then maybe allow a called shot at -4 to attempt to get a phase weapon shot to pass through the right part of the robotic shell to hit the mechanoid lifeform itself.

Excellent point!

GhostKnight wrote:Would Phase Weapons be effective against Mechanoids? They don't have much sdc/hp after you get through the psi shields.

Yes phase weapony is effective again the flesh of the mechanoids. to rule otherwise, then you would have to make pilots of power armor immune to phase weaponry as well.

Only difference is that the mechanoids are one with their mechanical bodies. Not saying you're wrong, just saying a better example would be a borg.

wolfe wrote:I would have the phase weapons to hurt the mechanoids but would most likely use the mdc off the containment chamber as the Hitpoints to go by until actual stats were ever released.

All mechanoid stats were released in Mechanoid Invasion Trilogy. If you're going to be running any game involving the mechanoids I'd suggest getting it.

Mechanoids are closer to a race with machine merge who uses robot bodies than anything

By the book, they are SDC creatures.
By the book, phase weapons bypass armor and damage the SDC and/or MDC creatures inside them.
By the book, borg is slang for cyborg.

Jesterzzn, I'd like to see this Phase Weapons vs Borg debate. In my opinion right now though, only borgs that were MDC creatures before their conversion are still MDC creatures. The whole point of becoming a borg is to improve one's body. So while some of a borg's body may be MDC steel, the insides are still just a squishy.

MaddogMatarese wrote:By the book, they are SDC creatures.
By the book, phase weapons bypass armor and damage the SDC and/or MDC creatures inside them.
By the book, borg is slang for cyborg.

Jesterzzn, I'd like to see this Phase Weapons vs Borg debate. In my opinion right now though, only borgs that were MDC creatures before their conversion are still MDC creatures. The whole point of becoming a borg is to improve one's body. So while some of a borg's body may be MDC steel, the insides are still just a squishy.

This was taken from a chat transcript that Kevin was taking part in. The question was asked by Tinker Dragoon.

Question: Do 'borgs have hit points and SDC or are they strictly Mega-Damage beings?
Answer: kevinsiembieda: No full conversion 'borgs are Mega-Damage beings
kevinsiembieda: MDC only

It is also posted in the FAQ Answer forum, as I said in the other thread. You can find it here.

So, Borgs may still have the squishies, but they are no longer applicable in game terms.

Jesterzzn wrote:

MaddogMatarese wrote:By the book, they are SDC creatures.
By the book, phase weapons bypass armor and damage the SDC and/or MDC creatures inside them.
By the book, borg is slang for cyborg.

Jesterzzn, I'd like to see this Phase Weapons vs Borg debate. In my opinion right now though, only borgs that were MDC creatures before their conversion are still MDC creatures. The whole point of becoming a borg is to improve one's body. So while some of a borg's body may be MDC steel, the insides are still just a squishy.

This was taken from a chat transcript that Kevin was taking part in. The question was asked by Tinker Dragoon.

Question: Do 'borgs have hit points and SDC or are they strictly Mega-Damage beings?
Answer: kevinsiembieda: No full conversion 'borgs are Mega-Damage beings
kevinsiembieda: MDC only

It is also posted in the FAQ Answer forum, as I said in the other thread. You can find it here.

So, Borgs may still have the squishies, but they are no longer applicable in game terms.

Do you know if there was any follow-up questions asked about this? Such as to why, in his (Kevin's) opinion, 'borgs that were normal humans get turned into MDC creatures? I'm not refering to the steel either. I'm wondering if that's what Kevin though Tinker Dragon meant, and , to me, the answer doesn't make sense.....

Oh wait. This is Palladium. It's not supposed to make sense.

MaddogMatarese wrote:Do you know if there was any follow-up questions asked about this? Such as to why, in his (Kevin's) opinion, 'borgs that were normal humans get turned into MDC creatures? I'm not refering to the steel either. I'm wondering if that's what Kevin though Tinker Dragon meant, and , to me, the answer doesn't make sense.....

Oh wait. This is Palladium. It's not supposed to make sense.

Nobody asked, there wasn't time.

I think you're wrong about it not making sense though, or at least you're not looking at the big picture.

IF a full-conversion borg still had SDC parts, then the entire OCC stops making sense. Why? Because they are designed for heavy combat, but they would be easy to kill.
A human brain would, at best, have 1-2 hit points.
Which means that if Borgs used HP, then according to the rules any borg could be killed by:
-Being hit by a car
-Falling 20+ feet.
-Getting hit by virtually any explosive force.
-Phase weapons
-Direct to Hit Point psychic or magical attacks

What's the point in having a soldier with hundreds of MDC if he can still be easily killed, more easily than a normal soldier?
None, really.
It just wouldn't make sense.

So for all practical intents and purposes, Borgs are to be considered MDC creatures. Otherwise the class would not realistically exist.

MaddogMatarese wrote:

Jesterzzn wrote:

MaddogMatarese wrote:By the book, they are SDC creatures.
By the book, phase weapons bypass armor and damage the SDC and/or MDC creatures inside them.
By the book, borg is slang for cyborg.

Jesterzzn, I'd like to see this Phase Weapons vs Borg debate. In my opinion right now though, only borgs that were MDC creatures before their conversion are still MDC creatures. The whole point of becoming a borg is to improve one's body. So while some of a borg's body may be MDC steel, the insides are still just a squishy.

This was taken from a chat transcript that Kevin was taking part in. The question was asked by Tinker Dragoon.

Question: Do 'borgs have hit points and SDC or are they strictly Mega-Damage beings?
Answer: kevinsiembieda: No full conversion 'borgs are Mega-Damage beings
kevinsiembieda: MDC only

It is also posted in the FAQ Answer forum, as I said in the other thread. You can find it here.

So, Borgs may still have the squishies, but they are no longer applicable in game terms.

Do you know if there was any follow-up questions asked about this? Such as to why, in his (Kevin's) opinion, 'borgs that were normal humans get turned into MDC creatures? I'm not refering to the steel either. I'm wondering if that's what Kevin though Tinker Dragon meant, and , to me, the answer doesn't make sense.....

Oh wait. This is Palladium. It's not supposed to make sense.

Well, general consensus at the time, was that it was a strictly game balance issue.

The evolution of the argument was pretty interesting. It started as a purely borgs vs phase weapons debate (for the record I was initially of the opinion that phase weapons did pass through the borgs non living parts). The debate turned on one issue it seemed, whether or not borgs still had Hit points/SDC for the phase weapons to damage. Another problem was that if they did have them, how many would they have? Some argued that you should just use whatever HP/SDC they had before conversion, other's thought that since little remained of the flesh body they should have very few HP and zero SDC. However, if they had the latter, this meant that OCC's like the Wolfen Qutora would be basically one hit killed by phase weapons, and this certainly didn't seem to jive properly. So the debate raged on for a while and then the topic was locked after some heated debate got out of hand. Later another topic was started focusing on what many thought to be the central issue, whether or not borgs had HP/SDC for the phase weapons to damage. After a few hundred posts in this topic, Tinker asked kevin at a Nokia sponsered fan chat for Promise of Power. Considering where the question was asked, I think we are fortunate to get the answer at all.

Am not trying to crap on anyones opinions here and some good points have definately been brought up, but when Kevin S first designed Rifts he had no plans for special energy weapons that could completely bypass armor. So the whole concept of "completely MDC creatures for gaming purposes" made sense at the time.
Then later on, Palladium debuted a weapon that was really weird and unbalancing by the old standards. I still dont think borgs could be killed "more easily than a normal soldier". That will never be the case. Soldiers have soft bodies and light MDC armor. Borgs have tough bodies and heavy MDC armor.

My point is: If Phase weapons can help someone even the odds over Power Armor, Robots, and vehicles, why not borgs?
Or should we just not bother using them altogether?

For MY campaigns, I'll say that Mechanoids are closer to pilots than cyborgs. They just have a little more intimate control over their vehicles than most pilots. Similar to a Rigger from Shadowrun. BUT, I probably wont be allowing any Phase technology in my Earth-based campaign, so it shouldnt matter.

Shorty Lickens wrote:My point is: If Phase weapons can help someone even the odds over Power Armor, Robots, and vehicles, why not borgs?
Or should we just not bother using them altogether?

Because in the case of Pilots they have SDC/HPs to be damaged, whereas Borgs do not. Even if you said they did have HP/SDC how many do they have? Remember that Phase Weapons can bypass armor, but they still only do SDC damage to SDC creatures. So that means if they do SDC to a borgs SDC innards, those innards have to have stats in order to be damaged.

Shorty Lickens wrote: I still dont think borgs could be killed "more easily than a normal soldier". That will never be the case. Soldiers have soft bodies and light MDC armor. Borgs have tough bodies and heavy MDC armor.

RUE, p. 355-356 describe the ways to take physical SDC/HP damage while "inside a MDC structure".
Armor is specifically padded against impact, but damage still gets through to the squishy parts.
Power armor is specifically padded against impact, but damage still gets through to the squishy parts.
Logically, the same would apply to a full conversion Borg.
Follow so far?

Now let me ask you a question:
Do you think that the remaining human tissue (a brain) in a full conversion Borg would have as many HP/SDC as a full human body?

Hopefully not.
The remaining SDC/HP parts of a full conversion Borg would be a brain and maybe a bit of spinal column. 1-2 HP maximum.
Any vehicular impact of 70 MPH or more would probably kill a borg on impact by dealing 1d4 SDC damage to the fleshy parts.
The same attack on a normal human would result in a minor bruise.
Same applies to a 40+ MD explosion, or a fall of 40+ feet.
That's pretty easy to kill.

My point is: If Phase weapons can help someone even the odds over Power Armor, Robots, and vehicles, why not borgs?

Because against a power armor, it evens the odds. A phase beamer that does 4d6 damage has the same odds of killing the pilot as a .45 calibre pistol has of killing an unarmored human.
Against a Borg's SDC/HP bits (a brain), a direct hit would have the same chance of killing the Borg as a .45 calibre pistol would have of killing a grapefruit. That's not even odds.

Mechanoids have enough HP that they are closer in comparison to power armor pilots, as far as game balance goes.

Or should we just not bother using them altogether?

Phase beamers?
Well, not using them would simplify matters but borgs could still be killed by car crashes, explosives, and falls pretty easily.

For MY campaigns, I'll say that Mechanoids are closer to pilots than cyborgs. They just have a little more intimate control over their vehicles than most pilots. Similar to a Rigger from Shadowrun. BUT, I probably wont be allowing any Phase technology in my Earth-based campaign, so it shouldnt matter.

Makes sense to me.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shorty Lickens wrote: I still dont think borgs could be killed "more easily than a normal soldier". That will never be the case. Soldiers have soft bodies and light MDC armor. Borgs have tough bodies and heavy MDC armor.

RUE, p. 355-356 describe the ways to take physical SDC/HP damage while "inside a MDC structure".
Armor is specifically padded against impact, but damage still gets through to the squishy parts.
Power armor is specifically padded against impact, but damage still gets through to the squishy parts.
Logically, the same would apply to a full conversion Borg.
Follow so far?

Now let me ask you a question:
Do you think that the remaining human tissue (a brain) in a full conversion Borg would have as many HP/SDC as a full human body?

Hopefully not.
The remaining SDC/HP parts of a full conversion Borg would be a brain and maybe a bit of spinal column. 1-2 HP maximum.
Any vehicular impact of 70 MPH or more would probably kill a borg on impact by dealing 1d4 SDC damage to the fleshy parts.
The same attack on a normal human would result in a minor bruise.
Same applies to a 40+ MD explosion, or a fall of 40+ feet.
That's pretty easy to kill.

My point is: If Phase weapons can help someone even the odds over Power Armor, Robots, and vehicles, why not borgs?

Because against a power armor, it evens the odds. A phase beamer that does 4d6 damage has the same odds of killing the pilot as a .45 calibre pistol has of killing an unarmored human.
Against a Borg's SDC/HP bits (a brain), a direct hit would have the same chance of killing the Borg as a .45 calibre pistol would have of killing a grapefruit. That's not even odds.

Mechanoids have enough HP that they are closer in comparison to power armor pilots, as far as game balance goes.

Or should we just not bother using them altogether?

Phase beamers?
Well, not using them would simplify matters but borgs could still be killed by car crashes, explosives, and falls pretty easily.

For MY campaigns, I'll say that Mechanoids are closer to pilots than cyborgs. They just have a little more intimate control over their vehicles than most pilots. Similar to a Rigger from Shadowrun. BUT, I probably wont be allowing any Phase technology in my Earth-based campaign, so it shouldnt matter.

Makes sense to me.

Actually when I made my borg PC, we had the Modern Weapons book, and just used that to figure out how much the head had.

MaddogMatarese wrote:Actually when I made my borg PC, we had the Modern Weapons book, and just used that to figure out how much the head had.

Great.
Now subtract the SDC from the hair, flesh, skull, and other bits, and you have the HP for the brain.
Let me know what you come up with.

I stumbled upon something while looking through the Mechanoids sourcebook for Rifts.
On page 89, part of the reminders and footnotes section, #5 & #6, makes almost conflicting remarks.

#5 says they fragile SDC creatures that are integrated with their "cyborg bodies" and that they cannot survive long without them. This suggests that they can be 'removed' from their bodies, something that one cannot do with a 'normal' cyborg. (It doesn't mention anything like 'partial' or 'full' conversion, only having 'cyborg' bodies)
#6 says that all mechanoids are encased in environmental body armor and exo-skeleton containing various life support systems, and compares their 'containment chamber' to the reinforced pilot compartment of a human vehicle.

GhostKnight wrote:Would Phase Weapons be effective against Mechanoids? They don't have much sdc/hp after you get through the psi shields.

It should...they have PE don't they?

Oops... I mentioned #5 and #6, but missed #8...
They have to partially or entirely slip out of their mechanized body housing and into a liquid nutrient tank in order to feed. It also says most mechanized body housings have 2-5 weeks of food supply.

Hmmm...I don't remember that point, but it does make some sense.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shorty Lickens wrote: I still dont think borgs could be killed "more easily than a normal soldier". That will never be the case. Soldiers have soft bodies and light MDC armor. Borgs have tough bodies and heavy MDC armor.

RUE, p. 355-356 describe the ways to take physical SDC/HP damage while "inside a MDC structure".
Armor is specifically padded against impact, but damage still gets through to the squishy parts.
Power armor is specifically padded against impact, but damage still gets through to the squishy parts.
Logically, the same would apply to a full conversion Borg.
Follow so far?

Logically, the difference between being inside an MDC structure and wearing it like a suit and having an MDC structure surgically implanted around you makes all the difference. Replacing 95%+ of your body with MDC materials should by you a boat-load of resistance to transmitted shock damage; there are little, if any, fluids to transmitt kinetic shock. We know a called shot to a 'borgs head can kill it faster than depleating the main body, why should phase weapons work differently?

Samored II wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shorty Lickens wrote: I still dont think borgs could be killed "more easily than a normal soldier". That will never be the case. Soldiers have soft bodies and light MDC armor. Borgs have tough bodies and heavy MDC armor.

RUE, p. 355-356 describe the ways to take physical SDC/HP damage while "inside a MDC structure".
Armor is specifically padded against impact, but damage still gets through to the squishy parts.
Power armor is specifically padded against impact, but damage still gets through to the squishy parts.
Logically, the same would apply to a full conversion Borg.
Follow so far?

Logically, the difference between being inside an MDC structure and wearing it like a suit and having an MDC structure surgically implanted around you makes all the difference. Replacing 95%+ of your body with MDC materials should by you a boat-load of resistance to transmitted shock damage; there are little, if any, fluids to transmitt kinetic shock.

Solid metal and ceramics also transmit shock.

We know a called shot to a 'borgs head can kill it faster than depleating the main body, why should phase weapons work differently?

It shouldn't, but it shouldn't be a one-shot kill either.

Sweet Jesus, why has every discussion I get involved with lately turned into a weiner slapping party? Now people are even bumping old stuff to irritate me.


If I video tape myself beating a dead horse will you guys let it go?
(Same deal for the scrap armor discussion.)

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shorty Lickens wrote: I still dont think borgs could be killed "more easily than a normal soldier". That will never be the case. Soldiers have soft bodies and light MDC armor. Borgs have tough bodies and heavy MDC armor.

RUE, p. 355-356 describe the ways to take physical SDC/HP damage while "inside a MDC structure".
Armor is specifically padded against impact, but damage still gets through to the squishy parts.
Power armor is specifically padded against impact, but damage still gets through to the squishy parts.
Logically, the same would apply to a full conversion Borg.
Follow so far?

Logically, the difference between being inside an MDC structure and wearing it like a suit and having an MDC structure surgically implanted around you makes all the difference. Replacing 95%+ of your body with MDC materials should by you a boat-load of resistance to transmitted shock damage; there are little, if any, fluids to transmitt kinetic shock.

Solid metal and ceramics also transmit shock.

We know a called shot to a 'borgs head can kill it faster than depleating the main body, why should phase weapons work differently?

It shouldn't, but it shouldn't be a one-shot kill either.

Transmit shock to where? absent a large mass of SDC tissue, all that's getting hit is MDC materials.

Logically it's a better arguement to claim that the borg's life support system keeps the phase weapon from a one-shot kill. That would give a full-conversion borg about 30 points of damage before dying.

Samored II wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shorty Lickens wrote: I still dont think borgs could be killed "more easily than a normal soldier". That will never be the case. Soldiers have soft bodies and light MDC armor. Borgs have tough bodies and heavy MDC armor.

RUE, p. 355-356 describe the ways to take physical SDC/HP damage while "inside a MDC structure".
Armor is specifically padded against impact, but damage still gets through to the squishy parts.
Power armor is specifically padded against impact, but damage still gets through to the squishy parts.
Logically, the same would apply to a full conversion Borg.
Follow so far?

Logically, the difference between being inside an MDC structure and wearing it like a suit and having an MDC structure surgically implanted around you makes all the difference. Replacing 95%+ of your body with MDC materials should by you a boat-load of resistance to transmitted shock damage; there are little, if any, fluids to transmitt kinetic shock.

Solid metal and ceramics also transmit shock.

We know a called shot to a 'borgs head can kill it faster than depleating the main body, why should phase weapons work differently?

It shouldn't, but it shouldn't be a one-shot kill either.

Transmit shock to where? absent a large mass of SDC tissue, all that's getting hit is MDC materials.

The brain.

Logically it's a better arguement to claim that the borg's life support system keeps the phase weapon from a one-shot kill. That would give a full-conversion borg about 30 points of damage before dying.

How so?

Killer Cyborg wrote:The brain.

Logically it's a better arguement to claim that the borg's life support system keeps the phase weapon from a one-shot kill. That would give a full-conversion borg about 30 points of damage before dying.

How so?

Shock transmittal and damage while wearing MDC armor arises from different sources; For instance when wearing armor and getting hit by a car doing 100 mph, the armor might resist the damage however there is a great deal of compression of the body within the armor resulting from being thrown through the air. The armor, no matter how well fitted to the body will move first and with more force than the body within (Newton's Law). However, a cyborg doesn't wear armor, the body is armor, there would not be anywhere close to the compressive inertial pressure applied to the internal body mass. And that body mass is much smaller than an armored man which means it could absorb more inertial stress.

A full conversion borg has internal life support that keeps the brain functioning when all MDC is depleated. It's reasonable to assume this life support could sustain SDC tissues damaged by phase energy. Much like a car battery can be drained by leaving the headlights on then jump-started and function normally.

Samored II wrote:A full conversion borg has internal life support that keeps the brain functioning when all MDC is depleated. It's reasonable to assume this life support could sustain SDC tissues damaged by phase energy. Much like a car battery can be drained by leaving the headlights on then jump-started and function normally.

I see it more as trying to jumpstart a battery that somebody has put a bullet or two through.
The life supports system sustains the brain's functions when the normal support systems have been compromised (which happens when the MDC of the body is depleted).
There is nothing to indicate that it would prevent damage or heal damage inflicted directly to the brain, and there is nothing to indicate that it could keep a borg's brain alive until that brain reached -30 HP.
Even if it could keep the brain alive, it wouldn't be conscious; it would be in a coma. So you're still looking at a single called shot dropping a Borg.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Samored II wrote:A full conversion borg has internal life support that keeps the brain functioning when all MDC is depleated. It's reasonable to assume this life support could sustain SDC tissues damaged by phase energy. Much like a car battery can be drained by leaving the headlights on then jump-started and function normally.

I see it more as trying to jumpstart a battery that somebody has put a bullet or two through.
The life supports system sustains the brain's functions when the normal support systems have been compromised (which happens when the MDC of the body is depleted).
There is nothing to indicate that it would prevent damage or heal damage inflicted directly to the brain, and there is nothing to indicate that it could keep a borg's brain alive until that brain reached -30 HP.
Even if it could keep the brain alive, it wouldn't be conscious; it would be in a coma. So you're still looking at a single called shot dropping a Borg.

It depends on how phase energy works. There is no physical damage to the tissue, it just stops working. It can kill you but doesn't leave a mark. The car battery hasn't been shot, or damaged in any physical way, just disconnected. Switch it back on and everything is fine. Of course, turning it on and off like a switch is damaging and after about 30 points of phase damage the life functions are so disrupted that the internal life support can't sustain the borg. In game balance terms, it puts the borg on a par with a resonably tough human in power armor.

various mechanoids have some sdc parts, but this SDC would have to be taken out to 0 to kill a mechanoid, this isn't possible with any Phase weapon except a phase cannon with a good damage roll

To Grimjack

Mechanoids themselves are not usually MDC IMO.

I would guess the MDC is because the ABM brain has a LOT of brain. It probably would take 10 MD worth of punishment just to 'kill' it because it apparently has a good 4ft mound of brain matter, along with possibly having 'redundent' portions of brain to allow them to function even if badly injured.

Another thing is that the brain is a "leader" type, and would be (to me) expected (if not engineered) to be a bit more durable than the other Mechanoids, especially since the mechanoid being itself is not as well protected as other Mechanoids are (the whole big dome and all).

Making even a lowly and expendable "grunt" as durable as a "general" just doesn't make much sense to me.

Grimjack wrote:For some reason, I love this topic.

First, I have to say that KS saying the phase weapons don't work on borgs seems completely ridiculous to me. There is no *good* reason for this. I always played it like phase tech was the great bane of borgs.

At any rate, I would have to say that phase tech would not affect Mechanoids. The Abm Mechanoid Brain's fleshy part is described as having 10 MDC in SB2, so I would extrapolate that to all Mechanoids.

Your point being? Phase weapons do MDC damage to MDC creatures.