"Exclusive" always equals "two"?

[Guest]

This came up in the DMA thread:

Because, in the "revised" edition, they don't necessarily get two styles. Which means that a poor DMA with that one Exclusive style doesn't stack up to the Operative Agent with his non-Exclusive style AND SIX (6) skill programs.

It wasn't until I started poking around this forum (and Kuseru's site) that I realized there were lots and lots of N&S players effectively treating all the Exclusive styles as two forms.

No, the "revised" edition of N&S tried to make that equation. The players usually ignore it entirely.

From the Dedicated Martial Artist description, page 47 of N&S Rev:

Choose two (2) forms, one Primary and one Secondary or one "exclusive" form.

Now, because only two Exclusive styles (Ninjitsu and Thai Kick Boxing) actually say they count as two forms -- and because of the lack of helpful commas in the cited sentence -- I always just assumed this was a poorly worded way of saying, "One of the forms the DMA can choose can be Exclusive."

Oh it's poorly worded alright, but not the way you're thinking. By stating that if you select and Exclusive style you can only choose one, those notes under Ninjitsu and TKB mean that THEY CAN'T BE SELECTED by anyone. If it was the case you were thinking of, the sentence would only read "Choose two (2) forms, one Primary and one Secondary."

So, for example, a DMA could take Aikido (Exclusive) and, say, Jujutsu as a Secondary form; not just be stuck with Aikido.

Not in the revised edition.

Of course, if the DMA picked Ninjutsu or Thai Kick Boxing, that was it. (Although that's its own issue. I get the reasoning behind Ninjutsu's two-form status, as presented on page 99, but I'm not sure "Because (it's) so intense" (107) is enough. I would think Kyokushinkai or Taido -- or any given form, for that matter -- would be pretty freakin' "intense" too. Although I haven't done the math on the bonuses; perhaps Kuseru can enlighten me as to whether Thai Kick Boxing is indeed heads and shoulders above other forms, number-wise.)

Nope, TKB isn't heads and shoulders above the other forms. In fact, it's roughly lower middle.

Thoughts?

Johnny Chronic

See the Revised edition errata on my site for the fixes and why they were done that way.

[sinestus]

note...

it says "one primary and one secondary or one exclusive"


ah engrish, greatest of all languages...

i can remember translating that as

"one prime and one exclusive" or "one prime and one second"

[The Beast]

And I took it to mean: one primary and one secondary, or one exclusive. The emphasis being on the comma.

[Sentinel]

And I took it to mean: one primary and one secondary, or one exclusive. The emphasis being on the comma.

It only adds to the confusion that there are martial arts (Thai Kickboxing, Ninjutsu) that specifically state they count as two selections.
The DMA is the only character that can select Exclusive styles, and the only N&SS character who gets two styles, adding to the confusion.

[Trooper Jim]

The DMA is the only character that can select Exclusive styles, and the only N&SS character who gets two styles, adding to the confusion.

This is why I prefer the original version over the revised book. I like the idea of WMA being able to get exclusive styles also.

[Sentinel]

The DMA is the only character that can select Exclusive styles, and the only N&SS character who gets two styles, adding to the confusion.

This is why I prefer the original version over the revised book. I like the idea of WMA being able to get exclusive styles also.

I generally agree that the martial artists got the short end of the stick in the Revised edition, but their original presentations are a little over-balanced the other way.
There is a happy medium between the original DMA and the Revised DMA.
If the WMA didn't also get Three extra Physical Skills, an Extra martial Art Power at level One and Ten, and 35 SDC (10 more that the DMA, and generally more than any other OCC), then Exclusive Martial Arts would be okay for the WMA.

[Yendor]

Of course, then, on pg 169, you have the fun little contradiction:

QUICK ROLLING
THE VILLAIN O.C.C.
01-05 Dedicated Martial Artist with three (3) Forms

I always just went with Dedicated 3, WMA 2, with the ability to pick *some* exclusive forms (depending on the form desired, the reason, and a good character background).

[Sentinel]

Of course, then, on pg 169, you have the fun little contradiction:

QUICK ROLLING
THE VILLAIN O.C.C.
01-05 Dedicated Martial Artist with three (3) Forms

I always just went with Dedicated 3, WMA 2, with the ability to pick *some* exclusive forms (depending on the form desired, the reason, and a good character background).

Obviously a poor cut-and-paste leftover from the original edition of N&SS.
Palladium Editing: gotta love it (can't shoot it.)

[Trooper Jim]

If the WMA didn't also get Three extra Physical Skills, an Extra martial Art Power at level One and Ten, and 35 SDC (10 more that the DMA, and generally more than any other OCC), then Exclusive Martial Arts would be okay for the WMA.

I never bought the whole "to bring N&SS into balance" excuse, for the revision. As for the 35 SDC, yea that is kinda steep. But the additional Martial art power thing never really bothered me. I always just believed that the WMA was just tougher then some of the other OCCs.
It just bugged me that I had to be a DMA to play a Ninja. When doing so left you short on important skills that are essential to playing that type of character.

Just my opinion, take or leave it.

[Sentinel]

If the WMA didn't also get Three extra Physical Skills, an Extra martial Art Power at level One and Ten, and 35 SDC (10 more that the DMA, and generally more than any other OCC), then Exclusive Martial Arts would be okay for the WMA.

I never bought the whole "to bring N&SS into balance" excuse, for the revision. As for the 35 SDC, yea that is kinda steep. But the additional Martial art power thing never really bothered me. I always just believed that the WMA was just tougher then some of the other OCCs.
It just bugged me that I had to be a DMA to play a Ninja. When doing so left you short on important skills that are essential to playing that type of character.

Hence, my topic about the DMA (among other reasons).

Just my opinion, take or leave it.

I'll have one to go. Can I get Onion Rings with that?

[Sentinel]

I'm glad this is here, I just got Ninjas and Superpies yesterday and am a little confused.

If exclusives count as two then why do Aikido and Chi Hsuan Men give bonuses to how quickly you can train in other styles for a secondary.

Wait, Ninjitsu does it too... Hmmmm....

Because once upon a time, DMAs could select three styles, and WMAs could select two, or one Exclusive.

[drewkitty ~..~]

All that I will say is that the N&SS R book is full of contradictions.

[Library Ogre]

All that I will say is that the N&SS R book is full of contradictions.

Theory: The original was often confused by people familiar with the company to not be a Palladium product, due to its relative lack of internal contradiction. Therefore, it was revised, to be more consistent with the rest of the catalogue.

[The Beast]

All that I will say is that the N&SS R book is full of contradictions.

All I will add is so are the rest of them.

[RockJock]

The WMA has always seemed a much more useful class then the DMA. The focus of the DMA is just so limiting.

[Guest]

All that I will say is that the N&SS R book is full of contradictions.

All I will add is so are the rest of them.

Mmm...generally not to the degree "revised" N&S was though. I think the only books that beat it out for "needs editing" were the Rifts novels.

[Sentinel]

The WMA has always seemed a much more useful class then the DMA. The focus of the DMA is just so limiting.

See I find the WMA almost completly useless as there are other classes that can pick all the same MAs as the WMA. Atleast the DMA can take two MAs.

Of course my question to all of you is, what is the signficant advantage of having more then one martial art other then the increase in number of MA powers? And are the MA powers really all that signficant of a class feature?

Part of that depends on what Martial Arts Powers are available.
If a character can select a style that provides two Body Hardenings, and another that provides three Atemi or Chi abilities, yes, it's a great advantage in combat to have two styles.
The cumulative bonuses of multiple styles can also beef one up fairly well (although, not as well as selecting Boxing/Wrestling/Acrobatics/Gymnastics; but, again Body Hardenings make up for this if you can get them).
The right combination (a favorite of mine is either Tae Kwon Do or Tang Su with Yu Sool: Two Body Hardenings or Martial Arts Techniques, and Three Chi Powers), can make a character formidable in combat to be sure. The added advantage of Yu Sool is the Automatic Locks and Automatic Body Flip/Throw, which equalize the disadvantage of only getting Two Attacks while the most Basic Palladium Characters get four.
Now, if the martial arts of N&SS were made more adaptable by the other settings (HU, Rifts, CHaos Earth, BtS, etc), then the book would be even more worthwhile outside of it's self-contained setting. This would require more than two pages alloted to it in the Conversion Books.

[Sentinel]

It was my understanding(I can be way off) that the bonuses don't stack unless you are talking about bonuses to atributes themselves.

You are correct, I was referring to the Attribute bonuses.
Although, the Body Hardenings are universal (in other words, your Chagi bonus applies whenever you are kicking, regardless of form), Martial Arts Techniques (you can use them with any of your forms), and IIRC a couple of the Arts of Invisibility as well.

[Library Ogre]

Getting the powers of two styles can be pretty useful and all, but I always felt that a DMA should have an option of "dedicating" himself to just one style and be superb at that rather than having to split himself between two (or three).

Hmmm... somewhat like a toned-down Ancient Master? Maybe starting at 5th level in the form, with some more skills to round them out? That would make a "dedicated" martial artist, as opposed to a Worldly Martial Artist, who has more skills, but less skill?

[Tinker Dragoon]

Getting the powers of two styles can be pretty useful and all, but I always felt that a DMA should have an option of "dedicating" himself to just one style and be superb at that rather than having to split himself between two (or three).

Hmmm... somewhat like a toned-down Ancient Master? Maybe starting at 5th level in the form, with some more skills to round them out? That would make a "dedicated" martial artist, as opposed to a Worldly Martial Artist, who has more skills, but less skill?

It seems to me that the simplest way to accomplish that is to give them the "Special Martial Arts Bonus" and extra physical skills that the Worldy Martial Artist gets (and remove them from the WMA while you're at it).

[Library Ogre]

It seems to me that the simplest way to accomplish that is to give them the "Special Martial Arts Bonus" and extra physical skills that the Worldy Martial Artist gets (and remove them from the WMA while you're at it).

Yes, but the extra physical skills aren't always appropriate to a given form... starting a few levels ahead of the game in the Martial Art is.

[Library Ogre]

But what do you do when a character at 1st level starts his MA at 5th level then the character reachs say level 11? Do you figure out a progression or does he simply just max out allowing the WMA to eventually catch up with him?

A simple trick I stole from someone else: start over again at 1, and add those bonuses again.

[Yendor]

But what do you do when a character at 1st level starts his MA at 5th level then the character reachs say level 11? Do you figure out a progression or does he simply just max out allowing the WMA to eventually catch up with him?

A simple trick I stole from someone else: start over again at 1, and add those bonuses again.

Same thing I do when it comes to Ancient Masters.

[Sentinel]

But what do you do when a character at 1st level starts his MA at 5th level then the character reachs say level 11? Do you figure out a progression or does he simply just max out allowing the WMA to eventually catch up with him?

A simple trick I stole from someone else: start over again at 1, and add those bonuses again.

Same thing I do when it comes to Ancient Masters.

You can also do that for gods and immortals.

[Guest]

I'd be tempted to introduce a whole new class of martial art powers available only after 15th level, you know the stuff that all the really powerful martial art masters can do, but the temptation for abuse by too many people kills it every time.

[Sentinel]

I'd be tempted to introduce a whole new class of martial art powers available only after 15th level, you know the stuff that all the really powerful martial art masters can do, but the temptation for abuse by too many people kills it every time.

Go ahead and introduce them.
As the Munchkins identify themselves, have your snipers pick them off.

[Guest]

I'd be tempted to introduce a whole new class of martial art powers available only after 15th level, you know the stuff that all the really powerful martial art masters can do, but the temptation for abuse by too many people kills it every time.

Go ahead and introduce them.
As the Munchkins identify themselves, have your snipers pick them off.

*Cough*Ninja*Cough*

[Sentinel]

I'd be tempted to introduce a whole new class of martial art powers available only after 15th level, you know the stuff that all the really powerful martial art masters can do, but the temptation for abuse by too many people kills it every time.

Go ahead and introduce them.
As the Munchkins identify themselves, have your snipers pick them off.

*Cough*Ninja*Cough*

Need a Robitussin?