"Double Existing Chi"

[Guest]

That's exactly how it works.

[Sentinel]

I've never had a problem with it.

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by Sentinel.
I've never had a problem with it.

Neither have I. In fact I've built characters to exploit it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

That would be how my Gunslinger got a chi of 1616.

no, your GM giving you a free extra x3 exsisting chi outside of your martial arts is how. if not for that houserule you'd only have 538 Chi

[Tinker Dragoon]

That would be how my Gunslinger got a chi of 1616.

no, your GM giving you a free extra x3 exsisting chi outside of your martial arts is how. if not for that houserule you'd only have 538 Chi

So he takes into account a creatures supernatural nature. Boo hoo.

Being supernatural does not equate to increased Chi, though having supernatural P.E. would. I don't know that triple base Chi is justifiable though.

[Sentinel]

I have always allowed players to add up their Chi mutipliers when they have had more than one (that is, if they had two styles that provided X2 Chi multipliers, I let them use both), but even then, with PE rarely rising higher than 30, the total Chi attribute was never more than a couple hundred. I have never seen legitimate Chi rise into the Thousands at Level One.

[Sentinel]

I have always allowed players to add up their Chi mutipliers when they have had more than one (that is, if they had two styles that provided X2 Chi multipliers, I let them use both), but even then, with PE rarely rising higher than 30, the total Chi attribute was never more than a couple hundred. I have never seen legitimate Chi rise into the Thousands at Level One.

The character in question is a 6th Gunslinger, 8th Spell Breather, and 6th Dedicated Martial Artist. He also along the way traded in his origional body for a Sea Titan one.

I can't say that I would approved that particular character.

[Library Ogre]

The character in question is a 6th Gunslinger, 8th Spell Breather, and 6th Dedicated Martial Artist. He also along the way traded in his origional body for a Sea Titan one.

I can't say that I would approved that particular character.

I love the understated statement you're making here, Sentinel.

[Sentinel]

The character in question is a 6th Gunslinger, 8th Spell Breather, and 6th Dedicated Martial Artist. He also along the way traded in his origional body for a Sea Titan one.

I can't say that I would approved that particular character.

I love the understated statement you're making here, Sentinel.

Sometimes, understatement is the only way to go.


Other times, screaming in stark terror is the appropriate response.

[RockJock]

I see absolutely no problem with it. It just means you have a character geared toward Chi manipulation. He probably has other weaknesses due to his singlemindedness with forms.

[Sentinel]

I see absolutely no problem with it. It just means you have a character geared toward Chi manipulation. He probably has other weaknesses due to his singlemindedness with forms.

With that much Chi, it becomes difficult to exploit his weaknesses, depending on what his Chi Abilities are. Hardened Chi, Soft Chi, Negative Empty Chi, Body Chi could all become seriously over-balanced by a character with over a thousand Chi to pump into any of the abilities.

[Sentinel]

I see absolutely no problem with it. It just means you have a character geared toward Chi manipulation. He probably has other weaknesses due to his singlemindedness with forms.

With that much Chi, it becomes difficult to exploit his weaknesses, depending on what his Chi Abilities are. Hardened Chi, Soft Chi, Negative Empty Chi, Body Chi could all become seriously over-balanced by a character with over a thousand Chi to pump into any of the abilities.

Sounds like a boring character to play honestly.

I wouldn't say boring per se, but definitely limited to taking on the higher powers of a campaign.
Yama Kings maybe.

[Sentinel]

Besides, we're taking on servants of the Old Ones.

For a game like that, I (as GM) would have advocated and approved Mega Heroes, Cosmo-Knights, Godlings and Demi-Gods, Dragon Hatchlings, and characters like Asgardian Elves & Dwarves, as well as True Giants (especially Titans), Phase Mystics, and Blayze Aliens.

[RockJock]

I was ignoring the characters with ungodly amounts of chi. I was thinking more like a human with two martial arts.

[Sentinel]

I was ignoring the characters with ungodly amounts of chi. I was thinking more like a human with two martial arts.

If I were a DMA (or an Unrevised WMA) I would hope I would not have such powerful opponents.

[Sentinel]

a Shemarrian turned Amazon Psi-Warrior

How'd you manage that one? I thought Shemarrians were artificials...?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I see absolutely no problem with it. It just means you have a character geared toward Chi manipulation. He probably has other weaknesses due to his singlemindedness with forms.

With that much Chi, it becomes difficult to exploit his weaknesses, depending on what his Chi Abilities are. Hardened Chi, Soft Chi, Negative Empty Chi, Body Chi could all become seriously over-balanced by a character with over a thousand Chi to pump into any of the abilities.

actually, his weakness is that his martial art form is Hisen Heisa, a martial art spcifically barred from using their chi and cannot learn any chi mastery.

[Hibik]

In a Mystic China game, I had a Taichi/An Yin Empty Handed Artist (Fei Song Lin)... she was all PP, All Chi. Her PS was... 10, I think. But with Chi and PP... well, that's all she needed. She was pretty scary too, more than once I opted to just palm shove someone into a pillar or the ceiling.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Besides, we're taking on servants of the Old Ones.

For a game like that, I (as GM) would have advocated and approved Mega Heroes, Cosmo-Knights, Godlings and Demi-Gods, Dragon Hatchlings, and characters like Asgardian Elves & Dwarves, as well as True Giants (especially Titans), Phase Mystics, and Blayze Aliens.

actually the main foe is a race the GM created using the tables for random races in the Phase World book. specifically, the best in almost every catagory. furthermore, all memebers of said race have Invunerability as a natural power, males have APS Plasma to boot, and females are Natural Psychics.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I dislike it because of the disparate levels of power it can create in a few level ups as compared to non-chi martial arts. To me it would be kind of like allowing a LLW in Rifts to gain 200+ PPE from one level up.

Another thing I dislike, more for flavor than mechanics, is that a relatively young martial artist (10th level or so) can amass more chi than an Infernal Overlord.

I know Palladium has never exactly been about balance, but when you have a character who can boost their strength by upwards of 200 points or generate an extra 1,000 SDC, and when their chi pools far exceed the supernatural "pure chi" critters in Mystic China, it just seems to be the epitome of one of Palladium's greatest weaknesses, which is a complete lack of scaling.

Dude! 10th level is NOT young! tenth level is Anceint Master Territory!

[Overlord Rikonius]

I dislike it because of the disparate levels of power it can create in a few level ups as compared to non-chi martial arts. To me it would be kind of like allowing a LLW in Rifts to gain 200+ PPE from one level up.

Another thing I dislike, more for flavor than mechanics, is that a relatively young martial artist (10th level or so) can amass more chi than an Infernal Overlord.

I know Palladium has never exactly been about balance, but when you have a character who can boost their strength by upwards of 200 points or generate an extra 1,000 SDC, and when their chi pools far exceed the supernatural "pure chi" critters in Mystic China, it just seems to be the epitome of one of Palladium's greatest weaknesses, which is a complete lack of scaling.

Dude! 10th level is NOT young! tenth level is Anceint Master Territory!

Actually, doesn't the Ancient Master start at level 15?

[Sentinel]

I dislike it because of the disparate levels of power it can create in a few level ups as compared to non-chi martial arts. To me it would be kind of like allowing a LLW in Rifts to gain 200+ PPE from one level up.

Another thing I dislike, more for flavor than mechanics, is that a relatively young martial artist (10th level or so) can amass more chi than an Infernal Overlord.

I know Palladium has never exactly been about balance, but when you have a character who can boost their strength by upwards of 200 points or generate an extra 1,000 SDC, and when their chi pools far exceed the supernatural "pure chi" critters in Mystic China, it just seems to be the epitome of one of Palladium's greatest weaknesses, which is a complete lack of scaling.

Dude! 10th level is NOT young! tenth level is Anceint Master Territory!

Actually, doesn't the Ancient Master start at level 15?

Actually, Ancient Masters begin at Level 1D6+3.

[Sentinel]

With that much Chi, it becomes difficult to exploit his weaknesses, depending on what his Chi Abilities are. Hardened Chi, Soft Chi, Negative Empty Chi, Body Chi could all become seriously over-balanced by a character with over a thousand Chi to pump into any of the abilities.

Or you could just use Tai Chi's special maneuver....

Send your opponent flying hundreds, even thousands, of feet with a single melee attack. Whee!!

Laterz.

Well there is that.
But, if your martial art of choice is Mien Chuan and Snake Style, you have to go with other options.

[Guest]

I dislike it because of the disparate levels of power it can create in a few level ups as compared to non-chi martial arts. To me it would be kind of like allowing a LLW in Rifts to gain 200+ PPE from one level up.

Another thing I dislike, more for flavor than mechanics, is that a relatively young martial artist (10th level or so) can amass more chi than an Infernal Overlord.

I know Palladium has never exactly been about balance, but when you have a character who can boost their strength by upwards of 200 points or generate an extra 1,000 SDC, and when their chi pools far exceed the supernatural "pure chi" critters in Mystic China, it just seems to be the epitome of one of Palladium's greatest weaknesses, which is a complete lack of scaling.

Dude! 10th level is NOT young! tenth level is Anceint Master Territory!

Actually, doesn't the Ancient Master start at level 15?

Actually, Ancient Masters begin at Level 1D6+3.

While this is true there Martial Arts if using a NSS as a source for the MA then that MA starts at lvl 10. At any rate I think the statement that a 10th level martial artist is hardly "young".

Not if you're using HU2.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The reason "Ancient Masters" aren't especially high level is the same reason none of Palladium's NPCs are very high level, which is for some reason the authors just don't see people getting very far. The Alien Intelligences are obviously the most extreme example. Beings that are millions of years old and top out at what, 12th-15th level? Come on.

Back to NSS though, just how many decades of game time does it take your PCs to get to 10th level? I'm guessing less than even a single decade, which means the character is probably no more than 30, maybe 40. Compared to an Infernal Overlord who is not only made of pure chi but is hundreds to thousands of years old.

And my point about styles with chi doublers vastly outpacing the power of styles without still stands. I don't even mind some styles being a bit better than others in most ways, but someone with hundreds of chi, plus Body chi and Hard (?) chi is pretty much unbeatable to anyone without those, even if that guy has all of the Body Hardening Exercises, special Katas, and MA Techniques.

well remember, most GM's don't give XP out the way it's intended. every one i've met uses house interpretations of some kind.

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by Freefall.
And my point about styles with chi doublers vastly outpacing the power of styles without still stands. I don't even mind some styles being a bit better than others in most ways, but someone with hundreds of chi, plus Body chi and Hard (?) chi is pretty much unbeatable to anyone without those, even if that guy has all of the Body Hardening Exercises, special Katas, and MA Techniques.

I'm sorry, but that is B.S. We've had people say that before and we've posted plenty of ways around it.

[Sentinel]

I'm sorry, but that is B.S. We've had people say that before and we've posted plenty of ways around it.

I wouldn't mind seeing some of them. You're basically saying that someone who can imbue themselves with a PS score in the hundreds and a few thousand extra SDC is on the same playing field as other martial artists? Sure, I can see how Atemi could get around this, but the Tiger Claw or Shaolin guy is pretty screwed.

Parry and Dodge as normal, then hit them with a Tamashiwara Power Punch.
That learns a chi master right quick.

[Sentinel]

I'm sorry, but that is B.S. We've had people say that before and we've posted plenty of ways around it.

I wouldn't mind seeing some of them. You're basically saying that someone who can imbue themselves with a PS score in the hundreds and a few thousand extra SDC is on the same playing field as other martial artists? Sure, I can see how Atemi could get around this, but the Tiger Claw or Shaolin guy is pretty screwed.

Parry and Dodge as normal, then hit them with a Tamashiwara Power Punch.
That learns a chi master right quick.

Finger Snap Atemi. Let him melee, you hit him with that and watch him drop to his ass. It works very nicely. Just ask our resident Cosmo Knight, who learned Mig has quite a few tricks up his sleeve.

When Mystic China finally makes its' way into the Conversion Book (whenever that is, I don't know) I wonder how the new Atemi abilities will be chopped in order to fit the MDC of Rifts and Phase World.

By default as an Atemi Ability, Finger Snap has decreased effectiveness against MD beings.

[Guest]

When Mystic China finally makes its' way into the Conversion Book (whenever that is, I don't know) I wonder how the new Atemi abilities will be chopped in order to fit the MDC of Rifts and Phase World.

Mystic China will never be in the conversion book, it's material was saved for the Rifts China books.

By default as an Atemi Ability, Finger Snap has decreased effectiveness against MD beings.

Ah, the great Atemi debate.

[Sentinel]

When Mystic China finally makes its' way into the Conversion Book (whenever that is, I don't know) I wonder how the new Atemi abilities will be chopped in order to fit the MDC of Rifts and Phase World.

Mystic China will never be in the conversion book, it's material was saved for the Rifts China books.

That sucks, because there is a lot of material in Mystic China that is substantially different from Rifts: China.

By default as an Atemi Ability, Finger Snap has decreased effectiveness against MD beings.

Ah, the great Atemi debate.

And of course, there is no Finger Snap Atemi in Rifts: China.

[Guest]

When Mystic China finally makes its' way into the Conversion Book (whenever that is, I don't know) I wonder how the new Atemi abilities will be chopped in order to fit the MDC of Rifts and Phase World.

Mystic China will never be in the conversion book, it's material was saved for the Rifts China books.

That sucks, because there is a lot of material in Mystic China that is substantially different from Rifts: China.

That's the understatement of the century

By default as an Atemi Ability, Finger Snap has decreased effectiveness against MD beings.

Ah, the great Atemi debate.

And of course, there is no Finger Snap Atemi in Rifts: China.

YET. Don't forget that we SHOULD eventually get a "Rifts China 3."

[Library Ogre]

By default as an Atemi Ability, Finger Snap has decreased effectiveness against MD beings.

Ah, the great Atemi debate.

Really, how effective would atemi be against non-humans?

[Guest]

By default as an Atemi Ability, Finger Snap has decreased effectiveness against MD beings.

Ah, the great Atemi debate.

Really, how effective would atemi be against non-humans?

Exactly.

[Sentinel]

When Mystic China finally makes its' way into the Conversion Book (whenever that is, I don't know) I wonder how the new Atemi abilities will be chopped in order to fit the MDC of Rifts and Phase World.

Mystic China will never be in the conversion book, it's material was saved for the Rifts China books.

That sucks, because there is a lot of material in Mystic China that is substantially different from Rifts: China.

That's the understatement of the century

By default as an Atemi Ability, Finger Snap has decreased effectiveness against MD beings.

Ah, the great Atemi debate.

And of course, there is no Finger Snap Atemi in Rifts: China.

YET. Don't forget that we SHOULD eventually get a "Rifts China 3."

I really don't know that I look forward to that.

[Sentinel]

Parry and Dodge as normal, then hit them with a Tamashiwara Power Punch.
That learns a chi master right quick.

And how exactly do you get this guy's strike, parry, and dodge bonuses so much higher than the chi master's that there is no significant chance of him being able to hit you, or being able to "parry and dodge as normal" himself?

Because bonus to strike maxes out at +8 with a PP of 30 and DOES NOT increace any after that.

Bingo.

It is possible that you can use the "old" bonus table from TMNT, which tops out at 42, but most people do not use that anymore (I have been slowly phasing it out myself).

[Nekira Sudacne]

It is possible that you can use the "old" bonus table from TMNT, which tops out at 42, but most people do not use that anymore (I have been slowly phasing it out myself).

I don't recall seeing that, but since everything since caps s/p/d bonus at 8, it's moot. And my mage with magic net can toast said chi master easily. I'll use Mig as an example (mostly because he doesn't believe in fighting fair).

MA: *Uses Body Chi to become ludicrous*
Mig: *Casts Magic Net*
MA: *Is stuck*
Mig: *Shoots MA until he is dead*

sounds about right.

hell, I just enjoy using smoke grenades

[Sentinel]

It is possible that you can use the "old" bonus table from TMNT, which tops out at 42, but most people do not use that anymore (I have been slowly phasing it out myself).

I don't recall seeing that, but since everything since caps s/p/d bonus at 8, it's moot.

I have the TMNT GM Screen, which extends the bonuses all the way to 42.
In TMNT, SPD also provided a Dodge bonus.

And my mage with magic net can toast said chi master easily. I'll use Mig as an example (mostly because he doesn't believe in fighting fair).

MA: *Uses Body Chi to become ludicrous*
Mig: *Casts Magic Net*
MA: *Is stuck*
Mig: *Shoots MA until he is dead*

Carpet of Adhesion also works well.
I also like to end fights with Calm Minds.

[Sentinel]

It is possible that you can use the "old" bonus table from TMNT, which tops out at 42, but most people do not use that anymore (I have been slowly phasing it out myself).

I don't recall seeing that, but since everything since caps s/p/d bonus at 8, it's moot.

I have the TMNT GM Screen, which extends the bonuses all the way to 42.
In TMNT, SPD also provided a Dodge bonus.

And my mage with magic net can toast said chi master easily. I'll use Mig as an example (mostly because he doesn't believe in fighting fair).

MA: *Uses Body Chi to become ludicrous*
Mig: *Casts Magic Net*
MA: *Is stuck*
Mig: *Shoots MA until he is dead*

Carpet of Adhesion also works well.
I also like to end fights with Calm Minds.

Yeah, those are good too.

You can also choke them to death with Chex Mix, and make it look like they died of gluttony.

[Sentinel]

You can also choke them to death with Chex Mix, and make it look like they died of gluttony.

Then party with the naked women. I like this plan best.

I have occasional flashes of inspiration.

Enjoy them while you may: They are trying melt my brain over on HU.

[Sentinel]

In a game I was in years ago, I played a WMA with Tang Su, who faced a Snake Style/ Mien Chuan fighter (DMA). My character was hit with a Negative Chi attack in the first action (but, we were in close range), and I suffered a Negative Chi infection (about 12 points, IIRC). When it was my turn to strike back, I used Power Punch with Tamashiwara. I rolled a Natural 19 which was critical for me, and inflicted triple damage direct to hit points. I had a PS of 32. With his Hit Points obiliterated in the one shot, I was free to seek out a CHi Master of Good orientation to reverse the effects.

[Nekira Sudacne]

In a game I was in years ago, I played a WMA with Tang Su, who faced a Snake Style/ Mien Chuan fighter (DMA). My character was hit with a Negative Chi attack in the first action (but, we were in close range), and I suffered a Negative Chi infection (about 12 points, IIRC). When it was my turn to strike back, I used Power Punch with Tamashiwara. I rolled a Natural 19 which was critical for me, and inflicted triple damage direct to hit points. I had a PS of 32. With his Hit Points obiliterated in the one shot, I was free to seek out a CHi Master of Good orientation to reverse the effects.

a luckey shot is just that. congrats

you could miss, in which case your screwed for the rest of the round.

[Sentinel]

In a game I was in years ago, I played a WMA with Tang Su, who faced a Snake Style/ Mien Chuan fighter (DMA). My character was hit with a Negative Chi attack in the first action (but, we were in close range), and I suffered a Negative Chi infection (about 12 points, IIRC). When it was my turn to strike back, I used Power Punch with Tamashiwara. I rolled a Natural 19 which was critical for me, and inflicted triple damage direct to hit points. I had a PS of 32. With his Hit Points obiliterated in the one shot, I was free to seek out a CHi Master of Good orientation to reverse the effects.

a luckey shot is just that. congrats

you could miss, in which case your screwed for the rest of the round.

It turned out my Parry Bonus was better than his.
I'd have been okay.

The final confrontation saw me get a Knockout/Stun off a Reverse Turning Kick, and finishing off an Axe Kick.