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I was looking at some of my home-brewed martial arts styles, tweaking little things to keep them effective yet not over-balanced, and I got to thinking about the Style when granted to a particular OCC.
Should there be a Ninja OCC separate from the DMA? How about Samurai? Shaolin Monk? Professional Kickboxer/MMA Fighter/Etc?
Or, should the two existing OCCs simply be made more flexible so a player can select one or the other, and choose the style that will round out a WMA or DMA and make them into a Ninja/Samurai/Whatever?

My thought is, on one hand, if a Ninja OCC came with Gymnastics, then Ninjutsu wouldn't need to include that skill. Then, any other character selecting that style would have to use up one of their skill slots to have Gymnastics.
If the Ninja OCC came with the list of Weapon Katas currently contained in the style, then the actual style could be lessened.

On the other hand, I have a preferrence, from a gaming standpoint, to have fewer yet more flexible OCCs, not more. The OCCs that do exist should be distinct and not overlap each other heavily (Rifts is the worst at this).

Sentinel wrote:I was looking at some of my home-brewed martial arts styles, tweaking little things to keep them effective yet not over-balanced, and I got to thinking about the Style when granted to a particular OCC.
Should there be a Ninja OCC separate from the DMA? How about Samurai? Shaolin Monk? Professional Kickboxer/MMA Fighter/Etc?
Or, should the two existing OCCs simply be made more flexible so a player can select one or the other, and choose the style that will round out a WMA or DMA and make them into a Ninja/Samurai/Whatever?

While I think the OCCs should be more flexible, the examples you've given (i.e. Ninja, Samurai, Shaolin Monk, Pro Kickboxer/MMA Fighter, etc) aren't all directly related to the DMA (or even WMA) as a class. Samurai and Ninja particularly are more than just a class about martial arts. To a degree, the same could be said about the Shaolin Monk. Professional martial artists on the other hand would fall under the larger martial artists classes directly. So, does there need to be more OCCs, yes AND no. The existing OCCs should be more flexible to increase the options they offer and make those classes able to be customized to a lot of little different specialities, but some other classes would be required as well.

My thought is, on one hand, if a Ninja OCC came with Gymnastics, then Ninjutsu wouldn't need to include that skill. Then, any other character selecting that style would have to use up one of their skill slots to have Gymnastics.

I think this is more of a question of the chicken and the egg. But then there's more to the Ninja than just Gymnastics, so your example is fairly moot.

If the Ninja OCC came with the list of Weapon Kata currently contained in the style, then the actual style could be lessened.

Two weapon kata don't make that big of a difference, and technically an OCC itself can't come with weapon kata in the first place, as those are martial art powers directly link to the style they're learned with.

On the other hand, I have a preferrence, from a gaming standpoint, to have fewer yet more flexible OCCs, not more. The OCCs that do exist should be distinct and not overlap each other heavily (Rifts is the worst at this).

I agree in principle (especially in the case of Rifts where's there's hundreds of OCCs, with very little to differentiate them other than some specific little changes). However, there are going to be more than just a few OCCs if you really want to make a wide range of things available to the players, simply because there's a lot of different occupational foci out there.

Getting away from Rifts and it's multiple OCCs for the same thing, let's look at Palladium Fantasy. There are quite a few official OCCs if you get all the books together (69); Acrobat/Tumbler, Actor, Alchemist NPC, Artisan, Assassin, Barbarian, Barbarian Keeper, Bard, Beastmaster, Blacksmith, Blade Priest, Conjurer, Diabolist, Druid, Fletcher, Gladiator, Holy Crusader, Holy Palladin of Rurga, Illusionist, Imperial Janissary, Imperial Soldier, Juggler/Knife‑Thrower, Knight, Life Force Wizard, Long Bowman, Lumberjack, Mariner, Master Collector, Mercenary Warrior, Merchant, Mind Mage, Miner, Minstrel, Monk (Warrior), Monk Scholar, Necromancer, Noble, Nomadic Tribesman, Palladin, Pirate, Prestidigitator/Stage Magician, Priest of Darkness, Priest of Light, Psi‑Healer, Psi‑Mystic, Psychic Sensitive, Ranger, Sage NPC, Sailor, Scholar, Shaman, Shaman (Clan, Danzi), Shaman (Wandering, Danzi), Shaman/Priest (Tezcat), Slaver/Enforcer/Bounty Hunter, Soldier, Spy, Squire, Summoner, Thief, Trapper/Woodsman, Undead Hunter, Vagabond/Peasant, Warlock, Warrior (Tezcat), Were‑Shaman, Witch, Witch Hunter, & Wizard. However, while some of them could be merged into one class (Holy Crusader, Holy Palladin of Rurga, & Palladin OR Monk Warrior & Monk Scholar OR the four Shaman variants OR Soldier & Imperial Soldier, possibly a few others (like Witch & Undead Hunters)), others could not be so merged, having distinct differences which make them unique. Also, despite having quite a few classes, there's still room for more, especially psychic and magic classes, though other class-types have room for expansion as well. For instance, despite the claims that any of the other Entertainer OCCs can become a jester, they're really too specialized for that to be the case. Jesting is more than matter of selecting the Jesting skill and telling some jokes. Also, I've created the Western Drug Dealer class specifically because such a character couldn't be truly made with any of the existing classes (the Scholar came the closest, and still didn't have the right stuff). Sure, much of that is due to the OCC organization used in PF and Rifts (as well as some of Palladium's other games), but not all of it. While N&S does have a setup that allows for more flexible classes (one of the best OCC setups Palladium has, though Systems Failure & BTS2 have some interesting differences as well), there will still be room for plenty of different classes.

Looking at N&S, I see an obvious need for a major overhaul to the existing classes, as several have very little to differentiate them whereas other areas are neglected entirely. The biggest thing is that, for a game called "Ninjas & Superspies" there's a real lack of classes for the former, while an unreasonable number of the latter. We get two martial arts classes that really aren't that special (more true in the revised edition, though certain points can be addressed for the original edition as well), the biggest lack being an actual "Ninja" class. Whereas for the Espionage classes we have a total of eight classes, many of which have little to differentiate them. There's not much difference, other than the cybernetics selection & skills available for the Cyber & Wired Agents, the same is true to a lesser degree for the Gadgeteer Agent. The Free Agent OCCs have two classes that truly don't belong in the category of Espionage Agents at all (the Private Eye and Thief), whereas the two so-called "Free Agents" really only consitute variants of one real class (one has a cybernetics focus, the other a martial arts focus...the only difference between them and the other Espionage classes is they don't work directly for an agency, you could easily lose both classes without affecting a player's options). The Mercenaries (despite the raging debates about the Academy Officer's use) is likewise glutted with a useless class, namely the Commando Mercenary, which is nothing more than a rule-breaking variant of the Veteran Grunt (whoever included this OCC didn't know what they were doing). Of the existing categories, the only one that has a full range of options without being too much or too little is the Gizmoteer category, where each class has a specific focus differentiating each class from the other (cybernetics, martial arts, and skills). Certainly, I could lump all those together into one, more flexible class (trading skill programs for cybernetics and/or martial arts), but of the existing class categories, the Gizmoteer is still the best done. Does that mean there's only room for, what, five classes in N&S (Martial Artist, Espionage Agent, Gizmoteer, Mercenary, & Other), no, not really. I can easily see the need for more class categories or even classes beyond that (police and criminal come to mind fairly quickly, as does the standard "ordinary person" class so under-utilized in Palladium). But even then I can still see the need for more classes. Look at Mystic China for example. Sure the Martial Artist OCCs in there are really only different versions of DMA/WMAs in that they each are Rifts-style specialty foci of martial artists...but those same foci could be used, in general, to expand the existing martial artist classes without causing a real problem. The other classes are too different from any of N&S's existing classes to really be easily removed (the Antiquarian and Capitalist could be variants of an "Ordinary Person" OCC in a stretch, and the RCCs are obviously too different for meaningful inclusion as for/against discussion, but the real change is the addition of magic "PCCs" (still a stupid decision to make them "Psychic" character classes, especially now that N&S/MC isn't directly compatible with BTS) that can't be easily lumped into the N&S class categories.

What it all boils down to is even though you could possibly limit any Palladium game down to a few overly general "class categories" (i.e. Scholars & Adventurers, Men of Arms, Men of Magic, Psychics, Rogues/Criminals, Police, Entertainers, Sea Farers, Martial Artists, Espionage Agents, Gizmoteers, Medics, Clergy, Ordinary People/Civilians, etc.), each category will have enough internal differences to make distinct classes within each category a viable option without limiting the number of classes and still be flexible enough to keep the minor class differences from taking up space that could be better used. Heck, there are 14 simple "class categories" in my above example, and I could easily fill each of those with 10 OCCs different and flexible enough to be practical, yet still end up with 140 different OCCs (which is still better than the, what, 1000 or so Rifts OCCs?).

Quote:
My thought is, on one hand, if a Ninja OCC came with Gymnastics, then Ninjutsu wouldn't need to include that skill. Then, any other character selecting that style would have to use up one of their skill slots to have Gymnastics.
I think this is more of a question of the chicken and the egg. But then there's more to the Ninja than just Gymnastics, so your example is fairly moot.

A lot more, you're right.
I was just trying to make an easily understood example.
I could have enumerated such skills as Disguise, Wilderness Survival, Impersonation and Imitation, Intelligence, and others, but the point of the question was really should these skills be indemic to the Ninja OCC or the martial art Ninjutsu?
Can a ninja be a ninja with the skills of disguise/et al and HtH: Martial Arts (or HtH Taijutsu)? Or, does being a ninja really require a unique martial arts form unto itself?

I am firmly against Point Buy systems myself.
Too much min-maxing.
Going in that direction would also put the advantage of skills in the hands of the Espionage characters, leaving the Martial Artists behind, as they would have (logically) fewer skills to select or trade for martial arts styles to begin with.
I think instead, giving the DMA the best selection of Martial Arts with the ability to select limited skills (domestics are fine, but not WP: Energy Weapons, for example), giving the WMA a more limited Martial Arts selection with a greater variety of skills, and then giving the military and espionage characters lesser martial arts forms (HtH type styles for example: with no Martial Arts Powers or extra skills) while giving them a more open Skill Program selection would be the better way to go.
That is a quick-and-dirty and oversimplified approach, but it could be easily expanded on.

Sentinel wrote:A lot more, you're right.
I was just trying to make an easily understood example.
I could have enumerated such skills as Disguise, Wilderness Survival, Impersonation and Imitation, Intelligence, and others, but the point of the question was really should these skills be indemic to the Ninja OCC or the martial art Ninjutsu?
Can a ninja be a ninja with the skills of disguise/et al and HtH: Martial Arts (or HtH Taijutsu)? Or, does being a ninja really require a unique martial arts form unto itself?

Due to the existance of Martial Art Powers, I'm going to have to say the latter. There's just too many powers directly derived from Ninjutsu that are directly applicable, which requires a unique martial art style unto itself. Some skills would be indemic to the Ninja OCC , however others would be more directly linked to a "Ninjutsu" martial art.

goodlun wrote:Although not a popular option and I understand why, but I would almost be willing to simply go another direction all togher. Everyone starts with x number of skill programs and just have martial arts be a skill program(or 2.3.4 what ever works out to be balanced). But this starts to become to much like a point buy system, also then you tend to get such skills as cooking being completly ignored. I just think there has to be a happy medium from a total points buy system and a class system.

Since it's applicable to the point you raised, I'm reposting this from the HU forum.

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:I'm currently debating the merits of two systems.

The first thing I did was recategorize the styles so the Exclusive/non-Exclusive classifications were more balanced.

I use the following replacement for determining Exclusive/non-Exclusive styles:
The following Revised Ninjas & Superspies and Mystic China martial arts are not Exclusive: Aikido, An Yin, Ba Gua, Bak Mei, Bok Pai, Ch'a Ch'uan, Chao Ta, Chi Hsuan Men, Chin-Na, Choy-Li-Fut, Gui Long, Han Yu, Hsing-I, Lee Kwan Choo, Li Chia, Liang Hsiung, Mien Chuan, Moo Gi Gong, Pao Pat Mei, Sankukai Karate, Shan Tung, Shih Ba Ban Wu Yi, Snake Style, Tai Chi Chuan, Taido, Tang Su, Te, Tong Lun, Triad Assassin, Yu Sool, and Zanji Shinjinken Ryu
The following martial art styles are considered Exclusive (meaning they must be the first style learned by the character): Drunken Style, Fong Ngan, Fu Chiao Pai, Hsien Hsia*, Hwarang Do, Isshin Ryu, Jujutsu, Kuo-Ch'uan, Kyokushinkai, Monkey Style, Ninjutsu, Pao Chih, Shao Lin, Sumo, Tae Kwon Do, Thai Kick Boxing, Tien Hsueh, Wu Shu Tsung**, Wui Wing Chun, and Xing Chiao.
*Note: Hsien Hsia, if taken, can be the only martial art learned by that character.
**Wu Shu Tsung is listed in its description as being a requirement for Chinese espionage agents. This note should either be removed, or a reasonable solution should be found which would make the style available for espionage agent O.C.C.s ( I recommend additional loss of skill programs).
This revised system results in a much more balanced approach to equating martial art styles with skills and their availability.

Around the same time I calculated the average equivalency of martial art styles to skill programs (given an average of five skills per skill program) and managed to figure out that a non-Exlusive style (after revision) was worth roughly three skill programs whereas an Exlusive style works out to about five skill programs. (Data is based on average number of skills, powers, and abilities available compared to the average number of skills available from a skill program...the numbers don't always match up (some styles are easily worth the equivalent of 9 skill programs, with a total range of 2 to 12 skill programs for the equivalent martial art style.))

Then, after some checking with the N&S OCCs, I determined that the average OCC gets roughly nine skill programs (with the average class getting something like six skill programs and one non-Exclusive style, obviously, the screwy range provided by "revised" N&S varies much more from the norm than that (i.e. the reaming of the DMA and WMA compared to the other classes), but that representing the average) so I checked the system to see how well that worked in creating OCCs and came up with the following options for "education":
Option A: 1 Exclusive Style + 1 Regular Style +1 Skill Program
Option B: 1 Exclusive Style + 4 Skill Programs
Option C: 3 Regular Styles
Option D: 2 Regular Styles + 3 Skill Programs
Option E: 1 Regular Style + 6 Skill Programs
Option F: 9 Skill Programs

Given an average of 5 skills per skill program means that each OCC has roughly 45 skills (exclusive of Secondary Skills and Base Minimum Skills), which is fairly realistic in terms of a person with advanced education (i.e. someone that spent 2-4 years in college). N&S does have skill program categories available with many more than 5 skills average (such as Military Skill programs which have an average of 10.5 skills), however the overall average is much lower, so it's not as much of a problem.

Lately however, I've been playing with a somewhat revised approach that lowers the total number available, simply to keep the bookkeeping involved simple but still offer the same range of abilities and skills.
Revised total of 6 Skill programs with a cost of 2 skill programs for regular styles and 4 skill programs for Exclusive styles:
Option A: 1 Exclusive Style + 1 Regular Style
Option B: 1 Exclusive Style + 2 Skill Programs
Option C: 3 Regular Styles
Option D: 2 Regular Styles + 2 Skill Programs
Option E: 1 Regular Style + 4 Skill Programs
Option F: 6 Skill Programs

This gives a much lower overall number of skills (30 vice 45), and is more useful for fantasy or post-apocalyptic settings where advanced education isn't as available to the common man. (Of course, I'm still ironing out how to work fantasy skill programs in a way that makes sense, is easy to work, and doesn't slow things down...in case you haven't guessed yet, I hate the OCC/OCC Related/Secondary skills system the majority of Palladium's games use due to it's inherent relative inflexibility.)

Super-powers, magic, psionics, and bionics have also been integrated into the system in a variety of ways (I think I posted my super power replacement of martial art powers in another post on this forum), that may or may not reflect a cost in skill programs (Super powers and psionics are relatively easy to use as replacements for martial art powers, though that means a super power or psionic ability is roughly equivalent to a skill program, not quite always the case given a specific power (such as Clock Manipulation which values at the equivalent of 1-2 skills (if anyone even bothered to use such a super power), whereas something like Control Elemental Forces: Earth could easily be the equivalent of 7 skills), but is generally balanced in terms of what trades for what. Aside from the martial art power applications, trading in skill programs for another power /augementation source, already an accepted standard in HU2 (such as Mystic Study power types giving up a skill program to study magic), is easy to apply in this revised system.

Due to the existance of Martial Art Powers, I'm going to have to say the latter. There's just too many powers directly derived from Ninjutsu that are directly applicable, which requires a unique martial art style unto itself.

Why couldn't the Martial Arts Powers be tied to the OCC itself?
For instance the Ninja OCC could get two Arts of Invisibility at level one, plus additional powers/abilities at higher levels.
That way, other OCCs could have Ninjutsu (or Tai-Jutsu if you prefer), but only true Ninjas would have Martial Arts powers associated with it previously.

Sentinel wrote:

Due to the existance of Martial Art Powers, I'm going to have to say the latter. There's just too many powers directly derived from Ninjutsu that are directly applicable, which requires a unique martial art style unto itself.

Why couldn't the Martial Arts Powers be tied to the OCC itself?

Because then they wouldn't be "Martial Art Powers," they'd be "O.C.C. Powers & Abilities."

For instance the Ninja OCC could get two Arts of Invisibility at level one, plus additional powers/abilities at higher levels.
That way, other OCCs could have Ninjutsu (or Tai-Jutsu if you prefer), but only true Ninjas would have Martial Arts powers associated with it previously.

I don't see any point in that.

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:

Sentinel wrote:

Due to the existance of Martial Art Powers, I'm going to have to say the latter. There's just too many powers directly derived from Ninjutsu that are directly applicable, which requires a unique martial art style unto itself.

Why couldn't the Martial Arts Powers be tied to the OCC itself?

Because then they wouldn't be "Martial Art Powers," they'd be "O.C.C. Powers & Abilities."

Well, okay, we'd have to change the name. But, why do Espionage Agents need access to the same Martial Arts Powers Ninjas get?

For instance the Ninja OCC could get two Arts of Invisibility at level one, plus additional powers/abilities at higher levels.
That way, other OCCs could have Ninjutsu (or Tai-Jutsu if you prefer), but only true Ninjas would have Martial Arts powers associated with it previously.

I don't see any point in that.

It would keep select Martial Arts powers exclusive to the Martial Arts OCCs, and out of the hands of Military and Espionage OCCs.
As I've said elesewhere, I can see why an Esionage agent might learn the moves of a Kung Fu style, but not that they should be able to select the Martial Arts powers that currently come with them.
Why should a Dreamer Gizmoteer or an Operative Agent have Tamashiwara or Zanshin with no distinguishment of power level from a DMA?

Sentinel wrote:Well, okay, we'd have to change the name. But, why do Espionage Agents need access to the same Martial Arts Powers Ninjas get?

Why do they need access to Ninjutsu in the first place?

It would keep select Martial Arts powers exclusive to the Martial Arts OCCs, and out of the hands of Military and Espionage OCCs.
As I've said elesewhere, I can see why an Esionage agent might learn the moves of a Kung Fu style, but not that they should be able to select the Martial Arts powers that currently come with them.
Why should a Dreamer Gizmoteer or an Operative Agent have Tamashiwara or Zanshin with no distinguishment of power level from a DMA?

Why not just give the Military and Espionage OCCs Quickie HTH skills then?

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:

Sentinel wrote:Well, okay, we'd have to change the name. But, why do Espionage Agents need access to the same Martial Arts Powers Ninjas get?

Why do they need access to Ninjutsu in the first place?

Someone will inevitably want to do a Military character who trained with Stephen K Hayes, or some such.

It would keep select Martial Arts powers exclusive to the Martial Arts OCCs, and out of the hands of Military and Espionage OCCs.
As I've said elesewhere, I can see why an Esionage agent might learn the moves of a Kung Fu style, but not that they should be able to select the Martial Arts powers that currently come with them.
Why should a Dreamer Gizmoteer or an Operative Agent have Tamashiwara or Zanshin with no distinguishment of power level from a DMA?

Why not just give the Military and Espionage OCCs Quickie HTH skills then?

Not enough of a selection of HtH styles at present.
Also, the N&SS styles have a more complete syllabus of moves including Strike/Parry and Joint Locks, which seem to have fallen off the map of Palladium combat.

Sentinel wrote:Someone will inevitably want to do a Military character who trained with Stephen K Hayes, or some such.

I solved that problem years ago, my answers are called Street Ninjitsu and Self Defense Ninjitsu .

Not enough of a selection of HtH styles at present.

Hand-to-Hand: Aggressive and Deadly Combat 04
Hand-to-Hand: Aikido 30
Hand-to-Hand: Arkenas 61
Hand-to-Hand: Aslyl Okta 48
Hand-to-Hand: Assassin 01, 02, 03, 04, 10, 14, 30, 37, 38, 39, 62
Hand-to-Hand: Assassin 13
Hand-to-Hand: ASSASSIN COMMANDO (AGENT) 08
Hand-to-Hand: Basic 01, 02, 03, 04, 10, 14, 30, 32, 34, 37, 38, 39, 62
Hand-to-Hand: BASIC (AGENT) 08
Hand-to-Hand: Blade Master 57
Hand-to-Hand: Bull Fight 01
Hand-to-Hand: Commando 30, 37, 62 (as CS Commando)
Hand-to-Hand: Defensive and Fast Combat 04
Hand-to-Hand: Dog Boxing Kung Fu 27
Hand-to-Hand: Donathair 48
Hand-to-Hand: Dragon Combat 63
Hand-to-Hand: Drunken Style Kung Fu 27
Hand-to-Hand: Eighteen Weapons Kung Fu 27
Hand-to-Hand: Evasive Combat 15
Hand-to-Hand: Expert 01, 02, 03, 04, 10, 14, 30, 32, 34, 37, 38, 39, 62
Hand-to-Hand: EXPERT COMMANDO (AGENT) 08
Hand-to-Hand: Fencing 72
Hand-to-Hand: Foot Ninjitsu 39
Hand-to-Hand: Gladiator 16, 70, 72
Hand-to-Hand: Judo 30
Hand-to-Hand: Jujitsu 30
Hand-to-Hand: Karate 30
Hand-to-Hand: Kendo 30
Hand-to-Hand: Kirndayv'Zhyf (Kirn) 31
Hand-to-Hand: Knight 13
Hand-to-Hand: Kung Fu (Terran) 31
Hand-to-Hand: Long Bowman 13
Hand-to-Hand: Martial Arts 01, 02, 03, 04, 10, 14, 30, 32, 34, 37, 38, 39, 62
Hand-to-Hand: MARTIAL ARTS (AGENT) 08
Hand-to-Hand: Martial Arts Master 04
Hand-to-Hand: Mercenary 13
Hand-to-Hand: Mngutch (Ular) 31
Hand-to-Hand: Monkey Style Kung Fu 27
Hand-to-Hand: Ninjitsu 39
Hand-to-Hand: Ninjitsu/Tai-Jutsu 30
Hand-to-Hand: Nomadic Tribesman 18, 72
Hand-to-Hand: Non-Men of Arms 13
Hand-to-Hand: None 02
Hand-to-Hand: Palladin 13
Hand-to-Hand: Ranger 13
Hand-to-Hand: Shao-Lin Kung Fu 27
Hand-to-Hand: Shtek-iyr (Chiropti) 31
Hand-to-Hand: Slaver/Enforcer/Bounty Hunter 18, 72
Hand-to-Hand: Soldier 13
Hand-to-Hand: Tai-Chi Ch'uan 27
Hand-to-Hand: Talitsu 29
Hand-to-Hand: Tarlok Martial Arts 29
Hand-to-Hand: Teng-Jutsu 30
Hand-to-Hand: Thief 13
Hand-to-Hand: White Jade Fan 27
Hand-to-Hand: Zanji Shinjinken-Ryo (Ryu) 30
Hand-to-Hand: Zanji Shinjinken Ryu 59
Hand-to-Hand: Zero Gravity Combat: Basic 05, 30, 31, 41
Hand-to-Hand: Zero Gravity Combat: Elite 05, 30, 31, 41

Those aren't enough for you?!? Then see Creating Quickie Styles to replace Hand to Hand Martial Arts

Also, the N&SS styles have a more complete syllabus of moves including Strike/Parry and Joint Locks, which seem to have fallen off the map of Palladium combat.

While that's true, there's already solutions in place to fix that.

That is a fairly comprehensive list, although many of those aren't really appropriate for a modern setting commando or espionage character.
Aggressive and Deadly can only be taken by Physical Training characters from HU: not available to spies and grunts, for example.

I solved that problem years ago, my answers are called Street Ninjitsu and Self Defense Ninjitsu .

Now, if those were only in an official book. Or a Rifter at least.

Sentinel wrote:That is a fairly comprehensive list, although many of those aren't really appropriate for a modern setting commando or espionage character.
Aggressive and Deadly can only be taken by Physical Training characters from HU: not available to spies and grunts, for example.

I solved that problem years ago, my answers are called Street Ninjitsu and Self Defense Ninjitsu .

Now, if those were only in an official book. Or a Rifter at least.

I don't think all my styles would fit in a Rifter, the last one I saw was only 126 pages, and I've got more styles than that (not too mention all the ancilliary information that would have to be included, skills, weapons, costumes, martial art powers, etc).

*Waits for Sentinel to propose the Kuseru-authored "Martial Arts Unlimited" sourcebook*

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:

Sentinel wrote:That is a fairly comprehensive list, although many of those aren't really appropriate for a modern setting commando or espionage character.
Aggressive and Deadly can only be taken by Physical Training characters from HU: not available to spies and grunts, for example.

I solved that problem years ago, my answers are called Street Ninjitsu and Self Defense Ninjitsu .

Now, if those were only in an official book. Or a Rifter at least.

I don't think all my styles would fit in a Rifter, the last one I saw was only 126 pages, and I've got more styles than that (not too mention all the ancilliary information that would have to be included, skills, weapons, costumes, martial art powers, etc).

*Waits for Sentinel to propose the Kuseru-authored "Martial Arts Unlimited" sourcebook*

Maybe we could call it Rifts Mega Sourcebook Three: Martial Arts Of The Megaverse.

Sentinel wrote:

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:

Sentinel wrote:That is a fairly comprehensive list, although many of those aren't really appropriate for a modern setting commando or espionage character.
Aggressive and Deadly can only be taken by Physical Training characters from HU: not available to spies and grunts, for example.

I solved that problem years ago, my answers are called Street Ninjitsu and Self Defense Ninjitsu .

Now, if those were only in an official book. Or a Rifter at least.

I don't think all my styles would fit in a Rifter, the last one I saw was only 126 pages, and I've got more styles than that (not too mention all the ancilliary information that would have to be included, skills, weapons, costumes, martial art powers, etc).

*Waits for Sentinel to propose the Kuseru-authored "Martial Arts Unlimited" sourcebook*

Maybe we could call it Rifts Mega Sourcebook Three: Martial Arts Of The Megaverse.

Uh oh. You said the R word.

Marcantony wrote:

Sentinel wrote:

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:

Sentinel wrote:That is a fairly comprehensive list, although many of those aren't really appropriate for a modern setting commando or espionage character.
Aggressive and Deadly can only be taken by Physical Training characters from HU: not available to spies and grunts, for example.

I solved that problem years ago, my answers are called Street Ninjitsu and Self Defense Ninjitsu .

Now, if those were only in an official book. Or a Rifter at least.

I don't think all my styles would fit in a Rifter, the last one I saw was only 126 pages, and I've got more styles than that (not too mention all the ancilliary information that would have to be included, skills, weapons, costumes, martial art powers, etc).

*Waits for Sentinel to propose the Kuseru-authored "Martial Arts Unlimited" sourcebook*

Maybe we could call it Rifts Mega Sourcebook Three: Martial Arts Of The Megaverse.

Uh oh. You said the R word.

Perhaps that might make it more palatable to big Kev.
Kuseru: "Hey Kev, I have this great new book for Rifts. It has Ninjas, and Superspies, and Martial Arts and stuff."
Big Kev: "A New Rifts Worldbook...<drools>...Run with it Kuseru!"
Kuseru then undoes all the damage done to Palladium Martial Arts by Rifts Japan and China I and II.

Sentinel wrote:

Marcantony wrote:

Sentinel wrote:

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:

Sentinel wrote:That is a fairly comprehensive list, although many of those aren't really appropriate for a modern setting commando or espionage character.
Aggressive and Deadly can only be taken by Physical Training characters from HU: not available to spies and grunts, for example.

I solved that problem years ago, my answers are called Street Ninjitsu and Self Defense Ninjitsu .

Now, if those were only in an official book. Or a Rifter at least.

I don't think all my styles would fit in a Rifter, the last one I saw was only 126 pages, and I've got more styles than that (not too mention all the ancilliary information that would have to be included, skills, weapons, costumes, martial art powers, etc).

*Waits for Sentinel to propose the Kuseru-authored "Martial Arts Unlimited" sourcebook*

Maybe we could call it Rifts Mega Sourcebook Three: Martial Arts Of The Megaverse.

Uh oh. You said the R word.

Perhaps that might make it more palatable to big Kev.
Kuseru: "Hey Kev, I have this great new book for Rifts. It has Ninjas, and Superspies, and Martial Arts and stuff."
Big Kev: "A New Rifts Worldbook...<drools>...Run with it Kuseru!"
Kuseru then undoes all the damage done to Palladium Martial Arts by Rifts Japan and China I and II.

...and "revised" Conversion Book 1, and Phase World Sourcebook, and Spirit West, and Skraypers, and SOT4/RUE, and any other books I might have missed from the list of "Shake things up so they don't work anymore."

New, workable, Hand to Hand and Ranged Combat rules... <drool>

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:

Sentinel wrote:

Marcantony wrote:

Sentinel wrote:

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:

Sentinel wrote:That is a fairly comprehensive list, although many of those aren't really appropriate for a modern setting commando or espionage character.
Aggressive and Deadly can only be taken by Physical Training characters from HU: not available to spies and grunts, for example.

I solved that problem years ago, my answers are called Street Ninjitsu and Self Defense Ninjitsu .

Now, if those were only in an official book. Or a Rifter at least.

I don't think all my styles would fit in a Rifter, the last one I saw was only 126 pages, and I've got more styles than that (not too mention all the ancilliary information that would have to be included, skills, weapons, costumes, martial art powers, etc).

*Waits for Sentinel to propose the Kuseru-authored "Martial Arts Unlimited" sourcebook*

Maybe we could call it Rifts Mega Sourcebook Three: Martial Arts Of The Megaverse.

Uh oh. You said the R word.

Perhaps that might make it more palatable to big Kev.
Kuseru: "Hey Kev, I have this great new book for Rifts. It has Ninjas, and Superspies, and Martial Arts and stuff."
Big Kev: "A New Rifts Worldbook...<drools>...Run with it Kuseru!"
Kuseru then undoes all the damage done to Palladium Martial Arts by Rifts Japan and China I and II.

...and "revised" Conversion Book 1, and Phase World Sourcebook, and Spirit West, and Skraypers, and SOT4/RUE, and any other books I might have missed from the list of "Shake things up so they don't work anymore."

New, workable, Hand to Hand and Ranged Combat rules... <drool>

That's the spirit.
Use your Ninja Powers on Big Kev.
Bend him to your will, make him your puppet.

If your evil goes beyond that though, I will have to stop you.

goodlun wrote:It would be a book all the munckins would die to have

I'm sure Kuseru has some secret Ninja Contact Poison that will eliminate the munchkins as they read the pages.

Sentinel wrote:

goodlun wrote:It would be a book all the munckins would die to have

I'm sure Kuseru has some secret Ninja Contact Poison that will eliminate the munchkins as they read the pages.

Hmm...that reminds me, I really should rewrite those rules for learning martial arts from Rifter #3...

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:

Sentinel wrote:

goodlun wrote:It would be a book all the munckins would die to have

I'm sure Kuseru has some secret Ninja Contact Poison that will eliminate the munchkins as they read the pages.

Hmm...that reminds me, I really should rewrite those rules for learning martial arts from Rifter #3...

Well, there's a 168 Page Sourcebook in the making.

Sentinel wrote:

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:

Sentinel wrote:

goodlun wrote:It would be a book all the munckins would die to have

I'm sure Kuseru has some secret Ninja Contact Poison that will eliminate the munchkins as they read the pages.

Hmm...that reminds me, I really should rewrite those rules for learning martial arts from Rifter #3...

Well, there's a 168 Page Sourcebook in the making.

Actually, the Kuseru Kenobi Project is currently at 42 pages, though it will probably end up around 50 when I finally finish adding in all the missing stuff.

goodlun wrote:

Sentinel wrote:

goodlun wrote:It would be a book all the munckins would die to have

I'm sure Kuseru has some secret Ninja Contact Poison that will eliminate the munchkins as they read the pages.

But then who would be left to play rifts?

Us.
Once the munchkins are dead, it'll be really fun.

Sentinel wrote:

goodlun wrote:

Sentinel wrote:

goodlun wrote:It would be a book all the munckins would die to have

I'm sure Kuseru has some secret Ninja Contact Poison that will eliminate the munchkins as they read the pages.

But then who would be left to play rifts?

Us.
Once the munchkins are dead, it'll be really fun.

Uhmm...yeah...

Don't you mean, "Once the munchkins are dead, Kuseru's rewritten it to remove 75% of the OCCs as redundant, trimmed all the books down by reorganizing them and cutting out all the reprints, making the whole thing an actual post apocalypse setting, and fixing the rules so they make sense and including all the ancilliary stuff that Sentinel keeps asking about or telling other people to ask Kuseru about"?

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:

Sentinel wrote:

goodlun wrote:

Sentinel wrote:

goodlun wrote:It would be a book all the munckins would die to have

I'm sure Kuseru has some secret Ninja Contact Poison that will eliminate the munchkins as they read the pages.

But then who would be left to play rifts?

Us.
Once the munchkins are dead, it'll be really fun.

Uhmm...yeah...

Don't you mean, "Once the munchkins are dead, Kuseru's rewritten it to remove 75% of the OCCs as redundant, trimmed all the books down by reorganizing them and cutting out all the reprints, making the whole thing an actual post apocalypse setting, and fixing the rules so they make sense and including all the ancilliary stuff that Sentinel keeps asking about or telling other people to ask Kuseru about"?

Yes, I just said it with fewer words.
Clearly, you know what I want.

heretic888 wrote:

Sentinel wrote:Can a ninja be a ninja with the skills of disguise/et al and HtH: Martial Arts (or HtH Taijutsu)? Or, does being a ninja really require a unique martial arts form unto itself?

Depends on your definition of "ninja".

Laterz.

Maybe a good place to start then, is to set a concrete (in-game) definition of what a "ninja" is, and what it is not.

I like the direction that D&D 3.x took. In D&D, prestige classes took a generic class and focused it to fit a particular flavor. For example, if we were playing Forgotten Realm, the Magic User class would be remolded to fit the feel of playing, say a Red Wizard of Thay.

Taking that same notion, instead of a Ninja OCC, you would have something like the Foot Clan OCC. The former is redundant in that a WMA is identified as a ninja as soon as he takes ninjatsu whereas the latter says yes, he's a ninja but with a twist (maybe the OCC emphasizes certain skills or abilities more).

I know Sentinel hasn't posted here in a long time, but this post was during my self-imposed exile from the N&S boards and I feel like replying.

Sentinel wrote:Should there be a Ninja OCC separate from the DMA? How about Samurai? Shaolin Monk? Professional Kickboxer/MMA Fighter/Etc?

No, no, no, no, no.

Sentinel wrote:Or, should the two existing OCCs simply be made more flexible so a player can select one or the other, and choose the style that will round out a WMA or DMA and make them into a Ninja/Samurai/Whatever?

How are they not flexible enough?

Sentinel wrote:My thought is, on one hand, if a Ninja OCC came with Gymnastics, then Ninjutsu wouldn't need to include that skill. Then, any other character selecting that style would have to use up one of their skill slots to have Gymnastics. If the Ninja OCC came with the list of Weapon Katas currently contained in the style, then the actual style could be lessened.

But then how would someone who took the style, and wasn't a "ninja o.c.c.", get the Weapon Kata?

Sentinel wrote:On the other hand, I have a preferrence, from a gaming standpoint, to have fewer yet more flexible OCCs, not more. The OCCs that do exist should be distinct and not overlap each other heavily (Rifts is the worst at this).

Exactly.

Mephisto wrote:Woot I love it when dead topics get resurrected this should happen more often.

Done!

I have a Ninja OCC for my games. While I call it the 'Ninja OCC', it can be used for equivalent non-japanese martial artists with specialized Espionage training.

Educational Level: Minimum of Trade School/On the Job Training

Basic OCC skills:
Language and Literacy: Native Tongue (Typically Japanese)
Basic Mathematics
Impersonation or Camoflauge
Intelligence
Prowl
Hojo-Jutsu or Rope Works
Escape Artist
Wilderness Survival
Land Navigation

Additional Skill Programs: Ninja may choose any Basic Program (Typically at least 1 Civilian/Cover Job Program), and have access to Criminal/Rogue and/or Espionage programs as well.

Martial Form: Typically Ninjitsu. If a lesser, non-exclusive, form is chosen, the Ninja can select one additional skill program. Good candidates for alternate forms include Jujutsu, Kyokushinkai Karate, Sankukai Karate, and Te.

I should note that I have players roll on an Educational Equivalent table similar to the one found in HU2, and the Civilian/Cover Job Programs are equivalent to the Occupations found on tables in the BtS2 and Dead Reign game books.

Mephisto wrote:Well Mantisking would you have more Martial Artist OCC's?

I've always been against adding more O.C.C.s.

Mephisto wrote:Also I was always curious your take on the Mystic China Martial Artists, since it seems like part of the reason that the Mystic China styles were weaker than N&S is because the OCC advancement bonuses were a lot higher (Jian Shih especially).

I think the only O.C.C. I've actually used out of MC is the Demon Hunter. And your reasoning, about the overall weakness of MC styles, does make sense.

Mephisto wrote:After all, Lee Kwan Choo is pretty much a style tailor made for a monk, same with Pao Chih, Han Yu and of course, Shaolin Kung Fu. I could see MMA definitely being available for a Worldly Martial Artist, same with Boxing and Collegiate Wrestling, but some of the more esoteric styles should be limited to either the DMA (by being Exclusive) or being linked to a particular OCC that fits the training and mold of that style.

Why? What if a player comes up with an interesting character background that involves a particular esoteric style, but wants to play a Veteran Merc?

I think the real problem comes with not having archetypes to copy. If splatbooks were made for each O.C.C. division (martial artist, agent, free agent, gizmoteer, and soldier) we could put example starting characters in each book. "See? This is how you make a Meditative Martial Artist. This is how you make a Ninja." Without falling victim to Riftsian bloat and power-creep.

not sure about actual types, but new chi powers would be interesting additions for sure... Read some book on kung fu a while back and one of the so called powers was the ability to climb brick walls with your shoulderblades!

I think the real problem comes with not having archetypes to copy. If splatbooks were made for each O.C.C. division (martial artist, agent, free agent, gizmoteer, and soldier) we could put example starting characters in each book. "See? This is how you make a Meditative Martial Artist. This is how you make a Ninja." Without falling victim to Riftsian bloat and power-creep.

Better explanation of the OOCs and perhaps some stock example archetypes I always felt would have helped.

As for martial arts themselves, I take a lot of issues with that whole exclusive/unexclusive thing, especially as it isn't entirely clear to me what defines them. If we're basing it upon availability, it's possible it's simply based upon the time frame the book was written. Muay Thai (or at least a form of it), for example, is now one of the more common martial arts in the west. Total bonuses also don't seem to add up. As Mantisking noted in his numbers thread, styles like Aikido, Chi Hsuan Men, etc, aren't quite as powerful as an 'exclusive' ranking might suggest.

I would probably rank redefining popularity of styles and how restrictions work in learning them pretty high on the list for a hypothetical rewrite, just so the hypothetical veteran grunt with a cool back story can get styles that make sense without arbitrary exclusive tags.

Hibik wrote:Better explanation of the OOCs and perhaps some stock example archetypes I always felt would have helped.

Which we would have room for in splatbooks.

Hibik wrote:As for martial arts themselves, I take a lot of issues with that whole exclusive/unexclusive thing, especially as it isn't entirely clear to me what defines them. If we're basing it upon availability, it's possible it's simply based upon the time frame the book was written. Muay Thai (or at least a form of it), for example, is now one of the more common martial arts in the west. Total bonuses also don't seem to add up. As Mantisking noted in his numbers thread, styles like Aikido, Chi Hsuan Men, etc, aren't quite as powerful as an 'exclusive' ranking might suggest.

I think basing Exclusivity on terms of raw numbers is a mistake. As Hibik says, if you look at the Combat Bonuses/Moves numbers the only style that posts huge numbers and is Exclusive is Wu Shu Tsung. Although if you break it down by category things are a little more telling. Eleven of 28 of my random categories are held by exclusive styles.

Best Chi Bonus: x2 (Aikido / Tien Hsieh / Snake) (Exclusive/Exclusive/not)
Best Total Stat. Bonus: +10 (Ninjutsu / Pao Pat Mei) (Exclusive/not)
Best S.D.C. Bonus: +30 (Sumo) (Exclusive)
Best ApM @ 1st: 5 (Muay Thai) (Exclusive)
Best ApM Total: 11 (Muay Thai / TKD) (Exclusive/not)
Best Zenjorike @ 1st: 2 (Hsien Hsia) (?)
Best Zenjorike Total: 5 (Hsien Hsia) (?)
Best Strike Bonus: +8 (Muay Thai) (Exclusive)
Best Breakfall Bonus: +7 (Aikido) (Exclusive)
Best Bodyflip/Throw Bonus: +8 (Aikido) (Exclusive)
Best Disarm Bonus: +7 (Chi Hsuan Men) (Exclusive)
Best Maintain Balance Bonus: +8 (Sumo) (Exclusive)
Best Initiative Bonus: +3 (18 Weapons) (?)
Best Rear Attack Bonus: +3 (Bagua / Hwarang Do / Kuo Ch'uan / Pao Pat Mei / Drunken) (not/Exclusive/not/not/not)

Anyway. I think of the current arts Monkey Style should be an Exclusive, with maybe Lee Kwan Choo and Hsien Hsia as well. And Exclusivity should be based on availability/story reasons in future.

Hibik wrote:I would probably rank redefining popularity of styles and how restrictions work in learning them pretty high on the list for a hypothetical rewrite, just so the hypothetical veteran grunt with a cool back story can get styles that make sense without arbitrary exclusive tags.

Well, the Vet. Grunt can still get an Exclusive style -- outside of Ninjutsu.

Mantisking wrote:

Hibik wrote:Better explanation of the OOCs and perhaps some stock example archetypes I always felt would have helped.

Which we would have room for in splatbooks.

Hibik wrote:As for martial arts themselves, I take a lot of issues with that whole exclusive/unexclusive thing, especially as it isn't entirely clear to me what defines them. If we're basing it upon availability, it's possible it's simply based upon the time frame the book was written. Muay Thai (or at least a form of it), for example, is now one of the more common martial arts in the west. Total bonuses also don't seem to add up. As Mantisking noted in his numbers thread, styles like Aikido, Chi Hsuan Men, etc, aren't quite as powerful as an 'exclusive' ranking might suggest.

I think basing Exclusivity on terms of raw numbers is a mistake. As Hibik says, if you look at the Combat Bonuses/Moves numbers the only style that posts huge numbers and is Exclusive is Wu Shu Tsung. Although if you break it down by category things are a little more telling. Eleven of 28 of my random categories are held by exclusive styles.

Best Chi Bonus: x2 (Aikido / Tien Hsieh / Snake) (Exclusive/Exclusive/not)
Best Total Stat. Bonus: +10 (Ninjutsu / Pao Pat Mei) (Exclusive/not)
Best S.D.C. Bonus: +30 (Sumo) (Exclusive)
Best ApM @ 1st: 5 (Muay Thai) (Exclusive)
Best ApM Total: 11 (Muay Thai / TKD) (Exclusive/not)
Best Zenjorike @ 1st: 2 (Hsien Hsia) (?)
Best Zenjorike Total: 5 (Hsien Hsia) (?)
Best Strike Bonus: +8 (Muay Thai) (Exclusive)
Best Breakfall Bonus: +7 (Aikido) (Exclusive)
Best Bodyflip/Throw Bonus: +8 (Aikido) (Exclusive)
Best Disarm Bonus: +7 (Chi Hsuan Men) (Exclusive)
Best Maintain Balance Bonus: +8 (Sumo) (Exclusive)
Best Initiative Bonus: +3 (18 Weapons) (?)
Best Rear Attack Bonus: +3 (Bagua / Hwarang Do / Kuo Ch'uan / Pao Pat Mei / Drunken) (not/Exclusive/not/not/not)

Anyway. I think of the current arts Monkey Style should be an Exclusive, with maybe Lee Kwan Choo and Hsien Hsia as well. And Exclusivity should be based on availability/story reasons in future.

Hibik wrote:I would probably rank redefining popularity of styles and how restrictions work in learning them pretty high on the list for a hypothetical rewrite, just so the hypothetical veteran grunt with a cool back story can get styles that make sense without arbitrary exclusive tags.

Well, the Vet. Grunt can still get an Exclusive style -- outside of Ninjutsu.

Actually, no he doesn't. The Free Agent Thief does with Aikido, as well as the Commando Merc with a choice of 3 Exclusives (Tien Hsueh, Wui Wing Chun and Wu Shu T'sung)

JuliusCreed wrote:Actually, no he doesn't. The Free Agent Thief does with Aikido, as well as the Commando Merc with a choice of 3 Exclusives (Tien Hsueh, Wui Wing Chun and Wu Shu T'sung)

Umm, what?

Mephisto wrote:Actually I'd rather replace Hammer of the Forge for a possible list of Rifter articles that could detail material like that, rather than try to do too much with full sourcebooks. I guess it depends on how much of a rewrite N&S is felt to be needed.

Well, I was thinking there would be other things in each splatbook besides O.C.C. examples/clarifications. For a Soldier book you could have additional weapons, military organizations, etc. This wouldn't be a re-write per se, more of an expansion.

JuliusCreed wrote:Actually, no he doesn't. The Free Agent Thief does with Aikido, as well as the Commando Merc with a choice of 3 Exclusives (Tien Hsueh, Wui Wing Chun and Wu Shu T'sung)

Mantisking wrote:Umm, what?

From Ninjas and Superspies (Revised Edition);

pg 56 Veteran Grunt; Martial Art Forms: Choose 1 martial art form. Any of the 41 martial arts can be selected, except exclusive forms.

pg 54 Commando Mercenary; Martial Art Forms: Choose 1 martial art from the following list; HTH Assassin (Agent), Ch'in-Na, Drunken Style of Kung Fu, Kuo-Ch'Uan Dog Boxing Kung Fu, Monkey Style Kung Fu, Pao Pat Mei Leopard Style Kung Fu, Sankukai Karate, Snake Style Kung Fu, Tien Hsueh Touch Mastery, Wui Wing Chun, or Wu Shu T'Sung P.R.C. Kung Fu.

pg 52 Thief (Free Agent); Martial Art Forms: Choose either HTH: Basic (Agent) or trade in 1 secondary skill for HTH Expert (Agent), or 2 secondary skills for HTH Martial Arts (Agent), or 4 secondary skillsfor any of the following; Jujutsu, Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, or Moo Gi Gong.

As I said... The veteran Grunt does NOT get any exclusive forms... the Thief and Commando Merc can select forms that are exclusive

JuliusCreed wrote:From Ninjas and Superspies (Revised Edition);

pg 56 Veteran Grunt; Martial Art Forms: Choose 1 martial art form. Any of the 41 martial arts can be selected, except exclusive forms.

pg 54 Commando Mercenary; Martial Art Forms: Choose 1 martial art from the following list; HTH Assassin (Agent), Ch'in-Na, Drunken Style of Kung Fu, Kuo-Ch'Uan Dog Boxing Kung Fu, Monkey Style Kung Fu, Pao Pat Mei Leopard Style Kung Fu, Sankukai Karate, Snake Style Kung Fu, Tien Hsueh Touch Mastery, Wui Wing Chun, or Wu Shu T'Sung P.R.C. Kung Fu.

pg 52 Thief (Free Agent); Martial Art Forms: Choose either HTH: Basic (Agent) or trade in 1 secondary skill for HTH Expert (Agent), or 2 secondary skills for HTH Martial Arts (Agent), or 4 secondary skillsfor any of the following; Jujutsu, Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, or Moo Gi Gong.

As I said... The veteran Grunt does NOT get any exclusive forms... the Thief and Commando Merc can select forms that are exclusive

Ah, okay. I'm using the old rules.

page 52, Veteran Grunt; Martial Arts Forms: Choose (1) martial art form. Any of the 41 martial arts can be selected, except Ninjitsu.

page 51, Thief (Free Agent); Martial Arts Forms: None. Choose either Hth: Basic (Agent) or trade in one secondary skill for Hth: Expert (Agent), or two secondary skills for HtH: Martial Arts (Agent).

Commando Mercenary doesn't exist.

Mantisking wrote:

JuliusCreed wrote:From Ninjas and Superspies (Revised Edition);

pg 56 Veteran Grunt; Martial Art Forms: Choose 1 martial art form. Any of the 41 martial arts can be selected, except exclusive forms.

pg 54 Commando Mercenary; Martial Art Forms: Choose 1 martial art from the following list; HTH Assassin (Agent), Ch'in-Na, Drunken Style of Kung Fu, Kuo-Ch'Uan Dog Boxing Kung Fu, Monkey Style Kung Fu, Pao Pat Mei Leopard Style Kung Fu, Sankukai Karate, Snake Style Kung Fu, Tien Hsueh Touch Mastery, Wui Wing Chun, or Wu Shu T'Sung P.R.C. Kung Fu.

pg 52 Thief (Free Agent); Martial Art Forms: Choose either HTH: Basic (Agent) or trade in 1 secondary skill for HTH Expert (Agent), or 2 secondary skills for HTH Martial Arts (Agent), or 4 secondary skillsfor any of the following; Jujutsu, Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, or Moo Gi Gong.

As I said... The veteran Grunt does NOT get any exclusive forms... the Thief and Commando Merc can select forms that are exclusive

Ah, okay. I'm using the old rules.

page 52, Veteran Grunt; Martial Arts Forms: Choose (1) martial art form. Any of the 41 martial arts can be selected, except Ninjitsu.

page 51, Thief (Free Agent); Martial Arts Forms: None. Choose either Hth: Basic (Agent) or trade in one secondary skill for Hth: Expert (Agent), or two secondary skills for HtH: Martial Arts (Agent).

Commando Mercenary doesn't exist.

Ahhh I see... my bad then.

JuliusCreed wrote:Ahhh I see... my bad then.

But that does bring up a good point. Should Exclusive styles be kept exclusive to the two martial artist O.C.C.s to provide niche protection?

Mantisking wrote:But that does bring up a good point. Should Exclusive styles be kept exclusive to the two martial artist O.C.C.s to provide niche protection?

Mephisto wrote:It depends at least in my view. An exclusive style should provide one of three things to make it exclusive: high level of combat training, high level of skills or high level of martial art powers.

I wish we had asked Erick why he made certain styles Exclusive and others not.

Mephisto wrote:To make a style warrant being exclusive means that ONLY a Dedicated Martial Artist can select it; and lets face it the DMA is pretty neutered skill wise.

True.

Mephisto wrote:My personal view is that Aikido should not be an option for a Thief, or else take away it's Exclusive restriction. It isn't fair really that a Thief gets a better skill package and the same martial art as a DMA.

The Thief O.C.C. should be returned to its original rules, no "name" martial arts.

Mephisto wrote:Aikido, Tien Hsueh, and Chi Hsuan Men are exclusive and yet Snake Style, Zanji and Fong Ngan aren't? I don't understand why that is the case at all.

{* shrug *} I don't know, man.