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It is stated that it is possible for a host armor to have a maximum of two Heat Projector Cannons. My question is this: Is there any benefit to having two of them? The weapon already has an unlimited payload, and there is no mention of being able to fire both at the same time. Thoughts?

Aren't they required for Omega Cannons? I also seem to vaguely remember a limited rate of fire on the HPC. Sadly I don't have a book handy to refresh my memory.

Good question.

I don't have the book infront of me, so for now, I can only offer this: probably, the logic behind two would be to have an extra one just incase one is destroyed.

I'll check tonight though, and post tommorow.

~ Josh

Heat Projector Cannon - has no restriction on RoF except that each blast counts as 1 attack. There is no mention that you can or can not have more then one. However....
The Omega Blaster DOES mention that you can have up to 2 (two) Omega Blasters. Perhaps the thread starter meant this?

can't add anything extra to the above other than potential intimidation factor (for targets that can be intimidated )

After readin it over last night. I have to say that:

1. They possibly could be used as Paired Weapons...G.M.s call, unless someone can dig up something to the contrary.

2. Agreed with NMI, above.

3. Still agree with my original post.

Shalom

Josh

The Deific NMI wrote:Heat Projector Cannon - has no restriction on RoF except that each blast counts as 1 attack. There is no mention that you can or can not have more then one.However.... The Omega Blaster DOES mention that you can have up to 2 (two) Omega Blasters. Perhaps the thread starter meant this?

I suggest you look again. Under Bio-E Cost it says:

35 points for a single cannon, and a maximum of two heat cannons are possible

I was not refering to the Omega Blaster.

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:Good question.

I don't have the book infront of me, so for now, I can only offer this: probably, the logic behind two would be to have an extra one just incase one is destroyed.

I'll check tonight though, and post tommorow.

~ Josh

So a second one is pretty much useless.

Mindcrime wrote:

The Deific NMI wrote:Heat Projector Cannon - has no restriction on RoF except that each blast counts as 1 attack. There is no mention that you can or can not have more then one.However.... The Omega Blaster DOES mention that you can have up to 2 (two) Omega Blasters. Perhaps the thread starter meant this?

I suggest you look again. Under Bio-E Cost it says:

35 points for a single cannon, and a maximum of two heat cannons are possible

I was not refering to the Omega Blaster.

Sorry for being wrong.
Although referring to your question about being able to be fired together or not, sure it doesnt say they can, but it doesnt say they cant.

The Deific NMI wrote:Sorry for being wrong.
Although referring to your question about being able to be fired together or not, sure it doesnt say they can, but it doesnt say they cant.

If both could be fired at the same time... that would totally put Omega Blasters to shame in terms of cost effectiveness.

2*(1d8*10+10) with high RoF and for only 70 bio-e total

vs

2d8*10 with an awful RoF and 80 bio-e total.

Mindcrime wrote:

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:Good question.

I don't have the book infront of me, so for now, I can only offer this: probably, the logic behind two would be to have an extra one just incase one is destroyed.

I'll check tonight though, and post tommorow.

~ Josh

So a second one is pretty much useless.

Heck no. Two are great.

Just have each one cost 1 Attack, in other words 2 Attacks to fire both at once. Roll for each cannon. Why does it take 2 attacks, Just have it use more energy both at once. Charge Up time.

Benifits ?
5d10 MD per Heat cannon is not good enough for you ??
Thats 10d10 or 1d10x10 MD for Both at once at the same target.

Also, you might want to fire at Two targets.

Plus Two are great if one is taken out due to damage.

TechnoGothic wrote:Just have each one cost 1 Attack, in other words 2 Attacks to fire both at once. Roll for each cannon. Why does it take 2 attacks, Just have it use more energy both at once. Charge Up time.

That's not a good canon reason.

Benifits ?
5d10 MD per Heat cannon is not good enough for you ??
Thats 10d10 or 1d10x10 MD for Both at once at the same target.

Nope, that's really not enough for me... especially considering my book says that the HPC does 5d8 on a light blast, or 1d8x10+10 on a heavy blast.

Plus Two are great if one is taken out due to damage.

...which seems to be the only benefit to having two HPCs in canon.

Mindcrime wrote:

Benifits ?
5d10 MD per Heat cannon is not good enough for you ??
Thats 10d10 or 1d10x10 MD for Both at once at the same target.

Nope, that's really not enough for me... especially considering my book says that the HPC does 5d8 on a light blast, or 1d8x10+10 on a heavy blast.

Plus Two are great if one is taken out due to damage.

...which seems to be the only benefit to having two HPCs in canon.

huh, my book says 5d10 for a light blast. 1d10x10 for a heavy blast.

don't forget your choice in targeting... someone may want to target in multiple directions with their heat cannons. Also more coverage.

Ohh yeah targeting two opponets is great.
And if you target the same target with both a max power, owww. 1d8x10+10 (20mdc to 90mdc per cannon) Thats 40mdc to 180 mdc dual shot. Get the Mega upgrade or both...80 to 320 mdc...

Dual Heat Cannons is far from useless.

Now compair them to a Boomgun More minimum damage on a max setting to equal max damage...

But sucks if you fighting a Raithenor though

Just to point out the difference between having two heat over two omega:
omega has a rather large splash damage zone

Prince Artemis wrote:Just to point out the difference between having two heat over two omega:
omega has a rather large splash damage zone

There are more differences than that. The ability to fire two omega cannons at once is canon, the same cannot be said of firing two HPCs at once.

I find absolutely nothing that says that you can't fire them both at once. If you can, then i'll admit it's a difference. If you can't then it is possible just like every other multi-cannon throughout all of palladiums games

Prince Artemis wrote:I find absolutely nothing that says that you can't fire them both at once. If you can, then i'll admit it's a difference. If you can't then it is possible just like every other multi-cannon throughout all of palladiums games

It is said in the Omega Blaster's description that two of them can be fired at once. Why would this even need to be said if it was a given (which its not)?

again, what makes it not possible though. I think they only made the note in the omega cannon because the protective plates have to be pulled back on both. The heat cannons are just like any other mounted weapon

Prince Artemis wrote:again, what makes it not possible though. I think they only made the note in the omega cannon because the protective plates have to be pulled back on both. The heat cannons are just like any other mounted weapon

There are other weapons with this note though. Several super light cells can be fired at once and this is noted in the description of the weapon. A precedent was set; if it's possible to fire two of the weapons at the same time, it is noted.

i see, fair enough, so by that logic, the claws can only be used one at a time, the bone blades either. and if as you say things are assumed the they can only fire both if it's stated then why did they go out of their way to not that you CAN'T fire simultaniously the bio-energy vents? You have your precidents, i have mine

Prince Artemis wrote:i see, fair enough, so by that logic, the claws can only be used one at a time, the bone blades either.

W.P. Paired weapons covers this quite nicely.

and if as you say things are assumed the they can only fire both if it's stated then why did they go out of their way to not that you CAN'T fire simultaniously the bio-energy vents?

That's a good point, but it is, however, only one example, and there are several others of the opposite being noted.

ultimately i think it's gms call seeing as how they have mentions of both for the different examples, and point of reference, i didn't check all the weapons to prove my point, i'm not going to waste that much time trying to win an argument that people will or will not use as per their own games anyway. There may very well be other examples but as you can probably tell by the order the weapons are sorted and the weapon i used as my example i didn't look very far for my support.

I play it as, if someone is going to waste that large chunk of bio-e to buy two of the same type of powerful weapon, which it clearly states you can, why not get to use them? The thing has practically unlimited ammo, can be used every attack without over heating, so if it's not meant to be used for dual blast what honest reason would someone have to waste their money on two?

i think it factors into these points:

#1 Attacks per melee firing each weapons.
a. Omega Blaster = 2 melee attacks to fire. Two can be fired at once without an addition attack(s) per melee, and without Pair Weapons WP.
b. Heat Cannon = 1 melee attack to fire. To fire both cannons with WP Paired Weapons, each cannon costs as a seperate attack. Using Paired Weapons WP allows both to be fired as one attack.
c. Several Weapons are given special mention as to be fired in volloys cause the shear amount you can buy. If each cost a seperate attack, some character would not be able to fire them all, ever...i'm looking at you super light cells...

TechnoGothic wrote:i think it factors into these points:

#1 Attacks per melee firing each weapons.
a. Omega Blaster = 2 melee attacks to fire. Two can be fired at once without an addition attack(s) per melee, and without Pair Weapons WP.
b. Heat Cannon = 1 melee attack to fire. To fire both cannons with WP Paired Weapons, each cannon costs as a seperate attack. Using Paired Weapons WP allows both to be fired as one attack.
c. Several Weapons are given special mention as to be fired in volloys cause the shear amount you can buy. If each cost a seperate attack, some character would not be able to fire them all, ever...i'm looking at you super light cells...

Paired Weapons does not work that way. Paired weapons only applies to 1-handed melee weapons.

pair Weapons when selected works for a single weapon type.

Paired Weapons : Swords...works just for swords.
Paired Weapons : Handguns ( New West books )
Paired Weapons : Rifles ( New West )

Paired Weapons gained from HtH training is HtH melee weapons only.

So, by selecting Paired Weapons : Heat Projector Cannon, it allows you to fire both at once at the same target or split your attack between two opponets.

Its been this way in Rifts for years, and i'm not changing how it works again.

TechnoGothic wrote:pair Weapons when selected works for a single weapon type.

Paired Weapons : Swords...works just for swords.
Paired Weapons : Handguns ( New West books )
Paired Weapons : Rifles ( New West )

Paired Weapons gained from HtH training is HtH melee weapons only.

So, by selecting Paired Weapons : Heat Projector Cannon, it allows you to fire both at once at the same target or split your attack between two opponets.

Its been this way in Rifts for years, and i'm not changing how it works again.

That is not how paired weapons works. It has never worked that way.

In N&S paired weapons only applies to one type of weapon for each selection, but still, it can only be selected for melee weapons. IIRC you have to have the triad assassin hth if you want to pair firearms in N&S.

In Rifts paired weapons allows the pairing of any melee weapons.

There is no "Paired Weapons: handguns." New West introduces "Paired Firearms." Paired Firearms is a class ability, it is not a skill that can be selected by just anybody. In fact, I know of only two OCCs outside of New West that can have Paired Firearms.

Mindcrime wrote:

TechnoGothic wrote:pair Weapons when selected works for a single weapon type.

Paired Weapons : Swords...works just for swords.
Paired Weapons : Handguns ( New West books )
Paired Weapons : Rifles ( New West )

Paired Weapons gained from HtH training is HtH melee weapons only.

So, by selecting Paired Weapons : Heat Projector Cannon, it allows you to fire both at once at the same target or split your attack between two opponets.

Its been this way in Rifts for years, and i'm not changing how it works again.

That is not how paired weapons works. It has never worked that way.

In N&S paired weapons only applies to one type of weapon for each selection, but still, it can only be selected for melee weapons. IIRC you have to have the triad assassin hth if you want to pair firearms in N&S.

In Rifts paired weapons allows the pairing of any melee weapons.

There is no "Paired Weapons: handguns." New West introduces "Paired Firearms." Paired Firearms is a class ability, it is not a skill that can be selected by just anybody. In fact, I know of only two OCCs outside of New West that can have Paired Firearms.

Simple logic says if one OCC has "Paired Handguns", others should be able to chose a skill like it. Simpling calling it Paired Weapon : ________ and not to broad catagory it to "melee" or "ranged" or "guns" works fine.

Our group has used Selected Related Skill Paired Weapons as a limited version of any HtH freebie version. Where the HtH freebie version is a broad "melee". The selected skill (using up a skill slot), Gives you a more limited version. PW-Swords. Works only when using swords. Of course selecting weapons should make since. No PW-Bazooka for example.

That said, choosing a Weapon that on your Host Armor should be possible. Such in the case of Heat Cannons. Sure this is limiting your overall skills, but it works.

My older Mainbook even says of RIFTS says Paired Weapons must be selected for a specific weapon type each time selected. I bought my Rifts mainbook in 1996 btw. So this is what i still use, dispite rules changes over the years. Why, cause it works. I've had player who wanted bad arse Knife fighters, who selected PW-Knife. Others who wanted to mimic action flicks with the dual pistol shooters, so they took PW-Pistols. Not revolvers, Pistols. One of my splicer players did buy PW-Heat Cannons for his Host Armor use. Even though he has only used both at once, Twice in the hole game. If had Psychic characters select PW-Psi-sword just in case they ever created two psi-swords at once. At 60 ISP they did so rarely, but when they did, BOOYah...

TechnoGothic wrote:
Simple logic says if one OCC has "Paired Handguns", others should be able to chose a skill like it. Simpling calling it Paired Weapon : ________ and not to broad catagory it to "melee" or "ranged" or "guns" works fine.

Paired firearms is not a skill though. It is a class ability, and very few classes have it.

Our group has used Selected Related Skill Paired Weapons as a limited version of any HtH freebie version. Where the HtH freebie version is a broad "melee". The selected skill (using up a skill slot), Gives you a more limited version. PW-Swords. Works only when using swords. Of course selecting weapons should make since. No PW-Bazooka for example.

This is a house rule and not canon.

That said, choosing a Weapon that on your Host Armor should be possible. Such in the case of Heat Cannons. Sure this is limiting your overall skills, but it works.

It is not possible in canon.

My older Mainbook even says of RIFTS says Paired Weapons must be selected for a specific weapon type each time selected. I bought my Rifts mainbook in 1996 btw. So this is what i still use, dispite rules changes over the years. Why, cause it works. I've had player who wanted bad arse Knife fighters, who selected PW-Knife. Others who wanted to mimic action flicks with the dual pistol shooters, so they took PW-Pistols. Not revolvers, Pistols. One of my splicer players did buy PW-Heat Cannons for his Host Armor use. Even though he has only used both at once, Twice in the hole game. If had Psychic characters select PW-Psi-sword just in case they ever created two psi-swords at once. At 60 ISP they did so rarely, but when they did, BOOYah...

My RMB is 9th printing (from 1995) and it has the exact same definition of Paired Weapons given in Splicers.

Mindcrime wrote:
Paired firearms is not a skill though. It is a class ability, and very few classes have it.

What can be a class ability SKILL, can be a Selected Skill. No rules say otherwise. Limited it to just "cowboys is dumb and Lame.

This is a house rule and not canon.
It is not possible in canon.

Not in our core book. It does not mention limiting to melee/ancient weapons at all.

My RMB is 9th printing (from 1995) and it has the exact same definition of Paired Weapons given in Splicers.

Well MY core books "Select a single WP". No mention of melee or ancient weapons. Thats what we have been doing. Its not "house rule" if the book, my book, does not say otherwise.
Until i bought Splicers/Rue, our group never saw the Lame version. Kinda like the new GI Joe Rule. We are going to ignore them both and continue to use the version in my old corebook.

TechnoGothic wrote:

Mindcrime wrote:
Paired firearms is not a skill though. It is a class ability, and very few classes have it.

What can be a class ability SKILL, can be a Selected Skill. No rules say otherwise. Limited it to just "cowboys is dumb and Lame.

So let's let every class get battle magus training too! Let every class learn a N&S martial art!

This is a house rule and not canon.
It is not possible in canon.

Not in our core book. It does not mention limiting to melee/ancient weapons at all.

Splicers page 205

W.P. Paired Weapons. A tactic in which a one-handed weapon is held in each hand to be used in any combination of combat moves simultaneously. For example, two short swords, or a short swoard and a broadsword, sword and knife, mace and shield, and so on....

Note how it specifically says "a one-handed weapon is held in each hand." This rules out the HPC, because it is not held in one's hands. Also note how it fails to mention any ranged weapons.

My RMB is 9th printing (from 1995) and it has the exact same definition of Paired Weapons given in Splicers.

Well MY core books "Select a single WP". No mention of melee or ancient weapons. Thats what we have been doing. Its not "house rule" if the book, my book, does not say otherwise.
Until i bought Splicers/Rue, our group never saw the Lame version. Kinda like the new GI Joe Rule. We are going to ignore them both and continue to use the version in my old corebook.

Can you quote your RMB for me?

my corebook

WP: Paired Weapons.
(Exculsive to Men at Arms OCCs), A tactic in which a one handed weapons is held in each hand, to be used in combination of combat moves simultaneously. For example, two short swords or short and broad sword, sword and knife, mace and shield, two pistols, and so on. Two handed weapons cannot be used as paired weapons. Users of Paired Weapons can :
1. Strike and Parry simultanteously, if the weapons allow such tactics. In other words, those skilled in Paired Weapons can often perform two action for every one action/attack.
2. Twin simultanteous STrikes against the same target. Both weapons hit the same opponet or target at once, making it ONE attack/action (roll only once to strike with both weapons). The defender under attack can only try to parry one of the two weapons coming at him for his defensive parry. The other will strike, unless too has WP:Paired Weapons and is using two weapons or a shield to try to block the attacks; needs to roll one parry only.
3. Strike at two differant targets, with must be within weapon range.
4. Parry two differant attackers, one in each hand, if using the right weapons or shield.

(snip) the huge NOTE section about examples.

Only my RUE, GMG, and Splicers include the huge "NOTE" section though. My Old Rifts Core book, does not.

TechnoGothic wrote:

my corebook

WP: Paired Weapons.
(Exculsive to Men at Arms OCCs), A tactic in which a one handed weapons is held in each hand, to be used in combination of combat moves simultaneously. For example, two short swords or short and broad sword, sword and knife, mace and shield, two pistols, and so on. Two handed weapons cannot be used as paired weapons. Users of Paired Weapons can :
1. Strike and Parry simultanteously, if the weapons allow such tactics. In other words, those skilled in Paired Weapons can often perform two action for every one action/attack.
2. Twin simultanteous STrikes against the same target. Both weapons hit the same opponet or target at once, making it ONE attack/action (roll only once to strike with both weapons). The defender under attack can only try to parry one of the two weapons coming at him for his defensive parry. The other will strike, unless too has WP:Paired Weapons and is using two weapons or a shield to try to block the attacks; needs to roll one parry only.
3. Strike at two differant targets, with must be within weapon range.
4. Parry two differant attackers, one in each hand, if using the right weapons or shield.

(snip) the huge NOTE section about examples.

Only my RUE, GMG, and Splicers include the huge "NOTE" section though. My Old Rifts Core book, does not.

And that's from your RMB? What printing?

I dont really feel like digging it back out again to check its printing. I do remember its year, 1996.

Checking through my RUE, my Paired Weapons skills is missing several hole sentance here and there. About half of the last paragraph is missing. This i know is printer error though, not PB's error.

TechnoGothic wrote:I dont really feel like digging it back out again to check its printing. I do remember its year, 1996.

Checking through my RUE, my Paired Weapons skills is missing several hole sentance here and there. About half of the last paragraph is missing. This i know is printer error though, not PB's error.

I find it very odd that my older RMB has the same description as Splicers, while your slightly newer one does not.

Well the other two Rifts corebooks i had (1999/2000) had the infamous -10 rule in the combat section and WP Modern sections.

Its not odd that palladium makes small changes to their books at times. All that boils down to pb thought they'd change/update a rule, and later went back to the way it was. Busness as usual with palladium.
I gave away my two spare Rifts corebooks cause i dislike the -10 to dodge rule, and gave them two other GMs i knew who liked the rule.

Nothing new or odd.

One of players bought a rifts corebook in 2003, and t has rules not in my book. They rules closly match the GMG though, like the revised -10 rule that allows juicers, crazies, and cyber-knights to dodge as normal.