Was Holmes' stunt possible?

[Killer Cyborg]

Holmes' stunt was not impossible...improbable, but not impossible.

I have seen many ways as to how he could have pulled it off.

~ Josh

Like?

[Toc Rat]

Going off of all material printed before the SoT, no it would not be possible. In all books prior the Bugs are clearly stated as attacking anything that comes there way. Flying enemies are an even higher priority then ground targets.

Holmes's entire army should have been Bug food to say the least. When you add in the Xiticix Invasion book and the information on Lazlo, it just adds more weight to the argument.

That's great the KS says the Xiticix book is still valid but I'm afraid it doesnt address the many inconsistences in Rifts continuity, particuarly those centered around the SoT.

[Toc Rat]

So, even if he was flying at a high enough altitude that the Xiticix cannot intercept them.

That would have been nice...for his flying units. All his ground units would have been very dead.

[Vrykolas2k]

As I stated in the other post about xiticix, in my campaign Holmes and 99% of his forces are dead. The survivors had to resort to cannibalism to survive, and some were rescued by Lazlo forces.
Which means the CS barely won the Tolkeen invasion in my game.

[Vrykolas2k]

Dude, that's your outlook of the event, not what is being mantioned here. I think they are trying to discuss if the events mentioned should be a mistake or not.

It's an obvious mistake.
They hadn't the supplies for a months-long trek through the hivelands, and the xiticix would have eaten them.

[Vrykolas2k]

...and the xiticix would have eaten them.

Xiticix don't eat people

Oh, yeah... just turn them into glop and THEN eat them...

[Killer Cyborg]

idiocracy (sp)

You either spelled an old word wrong, or you invented an extremly cool new word.

[Vrykolas2k]

idiocracy (sp)

You either spelled an old word wrong, or you invented an extremly cool new word.

I vote for the cool new word...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

look into the past to men who did what say cant be done

could he yes

[Vrykolas2k]

use smoke as both an irritant to keep the Xiticix
away and as cover,

I think this is the big factor. Smoke used right would confuse and blind the Xiticix. earth bees (killer and honey) swarm and attack when their hive is threaten, but bee keeps use smoke to confuse them and block the senses so they do nothing. Being as the Xiticix have been compaired to bees both physically and mentaly. This could have worked.

They wouldn't have enough smoke cannisters to last 8 or more months...

[Vrykolas2k]

not 8m but the first 72 hours after that the bugs backed off.

Until the smoke went away...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

my question is
do you all own all the books?
can you put 1+1 togethor


could jericho do it?
yes he could, why?

Jericho Holmes is cut from the same mold as Hannibal,Rommel, PATTON (TANKER GOD) as many others


What a brother couldnt be able to do this
hello hannibal wasnt white

Coalition States has the most info on Xiticix, and Jericho got lucky, yes he has the goldern horseshoe shove up his ass

[grandmaster z0b]

Now, let's consider the fact that they are 500,000 strong. Crossing the Xiticix territory in such a big "parade" would certainly caused a lot of ruse, but the giant insects will not attack. Safety in numbers applies here.

Unless there are double the number of Xiticix at the same spot where the troops are, the Xiticix is not likely to attack, unless they were provoked.

If the Xiticix are like the insects, in terms of intelligence, they will not attack unless they are molested.

But then again, they could have each carried 10 cans of insect-repellents. These aren't exactly heavy to carry.

The Xiticix have millions of troops so they outnumbered the CS about 2 to 1 at least.

They are incredibly territorial so they would probably attack as soon as a patrol saw them. Even if they were beaten, they would fly back to inform the Queen, who is very intelligent, as are the generals the Super Warriors.

As for poison vs. xiticix that's up for debate; they have supernatural PE so normal bug spray would probably not effect them. However it's possible that the CS may have used smoke to distract the Xiticix and hide their numbers.

Jericho Holmes is cut from the same mold as Hannibal,Rommel, PATTON (TANKER GOD) Razz as many others

I totally agree, look at what Hannibal achieved with crossing the Alps and it's not that different. However it's important to also note the differences between the two campaigns. The reason Hannibal was able to move such a huge army was due to many factors, the prime one being that it was a seemingly impossible task that the Romans never thought to defend the Alps properly. Hannibal had also planned it all meticulously and had huge baggage trains, which he fought hard to keep with the army. Another big factor was his use of a diversionary tactic to give the Romans the impression that they had been able to divert him from the road to Italy.

I would be happy to believe in Holmes' story if it included some interesting tactic or strategy to explain how he was able to pull it off. I like the idea of a diversionary strike, sacrificing some of his biggest war machines as they were the hardest to hide to draw the Xiticix away from the main force. After that battle was over the rest of the force lights a large forrest fire north of their position to hide their scent from the Xiticix and use it as a shield that the Xiticix were unwilling to pass, especially as the army was by this stage moving south east away from the hivelands.

Or something like that.

[Jack Daniels]

:shock:
my question is
do you all own all the books?
can you put 1+1 togethor


could jericho do it?
yes he could, why?

Jericho Holmes is cut from the same mold as Hannibal,Rommel, PATTON (TANKER GOD) as many others


What a brother couldnt be able to do this
hello hannibal wasnt white

Coalition States has the most info on Xiticix, and Jericho got lucky, yes he has the goldern horseshoe shove up his ass

Who are you and what have you done to the Mech-Viper who wrote coherent posts? I have fond memories of reading what that guy had to say.

[grandmaster z0b]

:shock:
my question is
do you all own all the books?
can you put 1+1 togethor


could jericho do it?
yes he could, why?

Jericho Holmes is cut from the same mold as Hannibal,Rommel, PATTON (TANKER GOD) as many others


What a brother couldnt be able to do this
hello hannibal wasnt white

Coalition States has the most info on Xiticix, and Jericho got lucky, yes he has the goldern horseshoe shove up his ass

Who are you and what have you done to the Mech-Viper who wrote coherent posts? I have fond memories of reading what that guy had to say.

Just ignore all the racial stuff and it's still a good point

[AnubisXy]

See, Holmes is SO awesome he can just ignore what's in older books and make his own dreams into reality! He's that good!

Seriously, the issue with Holmes was just the last bit of stupidity in a long line of it. The whole Siege, from begining to end was just done very poorly. It's like, anything that contridicted with what they wanted was just ignored, and lots of stuff was just arbitrarily added in (like, oh, the largest city of dragons outside of Splynn that nobody happened to have mentioned, ever? And just, coincidently, these aren't just any dragons but the most powerful dragons short of the actual Dragon-gods? Gee, what a coincidence...)

I can see the development of the last stages of the Siege on Tolkeen.

"Xiticix attack cows and are really vicious? Well, we'll just say Holmes moved really slow. I've decided Xiticix are like the T-Rex from Jurassic Park, and if you move slow enough they don't notice you standing there."

"But.. but.. that's not what it says in the Xiticix book that was just released.."

"Who cares what was in other books! This is my vision! And if I decide Xiticix ignore people who move slow, then by golly they're gonna ignore people who move slow! Besides, do you honestly think I've actually read any of the books for Rifts that have come out in the last ten years?"

Really, this has been discussed on the forums alot, and everyone pretty much agrees that the only thing that saved Holmes from a horrible death was authors fiat.

AnubisXy

[Killer Cyborg]

Xiticix Invasion, p. 11
"Large groups of invaders (more than 20) typically elicit a massive swarm of Warriors with two Xiticix for every one invader; giant robots and vehicles will earn 4-8 Warriors each."

[Leonardo T Dragon]

Xiticix Invasion, p. 11
"Large groups of invaders (more than 20) typically elicit a massive swarm of Warriors with two Xiticix for every one invader; giant robots and vehicles will earn 4-8 Warriors each."

KC's got a point. I'm going to have to go back and re-read the book but I remember that this raised a few eyebrows when I first read the passage.

Plain and simple, unless something else was diverting ALL of the Xiticix away, Holmes should have been meat.

[cornholioprime]

Now, let's consider the fact that they are 500,000 strong. Crossing the Xiticix territory in such a big "parade" would certainly caused a lot of ruse, but the giant insects will not attack. Safety in numbers applies here.

Unless there are double the number of Xiticix at the same spot where the troops are, the Xiticix is not likely to attack, unless they were provoked.

If the Xiticix are like the insects, in terms of intelligence, they will not attack unless they are molested.

But then again, they could have each carried 10 cans of insect-repellents. These aren't exactly heavy to carry.

Incorrect.

EVERY large group larger than 2-5 incites an Xiticix Attack.

In this case, one member of an X-Patrol would have challenged the Armies while the other(s) flew back to warn the Queen.

And Xiticix Leaders (Super Warriors and Queens) surpass even Human Intelligence on average.

On top of all this, Xiticix probably are impervious to Toxins; Desmond Bradford was able to get his hands on a few of them for his research in creating the Xiticix Killer, and even he apparently was unable to craft a Toxin that would kill them.

[Prince Artemis]

Okay, seriously, you guys are kicking this dead horse to the point that it's now a scattered pile of dust. so i'll say this.

Does it honestly matter? Seriously, doing the 'impossible' is what this game is all about. If you've never played a game where your characters have pulled off a certain death situations and won through to the end i honestly have pitty on the horrably boring games you've been playing. Do your characters all sit arround playing darts and discuss the weather?

So what if an NPC was able to pull off the same? As someone pointed out, this guy has a habit of being lucky. This game is is all about this kind of thing. Is it unlikely that this was able to happen? Definatly, but not impossible. Heck, if you're going to complain about this then what about the odds of both japan turning on their warp gates the exact moment the ley lines errupted? That a dragon was able to work as a librarian in chi town for several years? Seriously, you guys would have an easier time arguing about the continuity of the simpsons than an rpg that's different for every player group and the main setting revolves arround reality being shattered!

[grandmaster z0b]

Okay, seriously, you guys are kicking this dead horse to the point that it's now a scattered pile of dust. so i'll say this.

Does it honestly matter? Seriously, doing the 'impossible' is what this game is all about. If you've never played a game where your characters have pulled off a certain death situations and won through to the end i honestly have pitty on the horrably boring games you've been playing. Do your characters all sit arround playing darts and discuss the weather?

So what if an NPC was able to pull off the same? As someone pointed out, this guy has a habit of being lucky. This game is is all about this kind of thing. Is it unlikely that this was able to happen? Definatly, but not impossible. Heck, if you're going to complain about this then what about the odds of both japan turning on their warp gates the exact moment the ley lines errupted? That a dragon was able to work as a librarian in chi town for several years? Seriously, you guys would have an easier time arguing about the continuity of the simpsons than an rpg that's different for every player group and the main setting revolves arround reality being shattered!

If you don't want to discuss it then you don't have to read this thread, some of us want to discuss how this is possible to enhance the game.

For example, on the last page of this thread I proposed some strategies that Holmes could have used to make the entire situation more believable. In fact I will re-post it in the hope in the hope we can discuss this or other ideas in more depth;

I would be happy to believe in Holmes' story if it included some interesting tactic or strategy to explain how he was able to pull it off. I like the idea of a diversionary strike, sacrificing some of his biggest war machines as they were the hardest to hide to draw the Xiticix away from the main force. After that battle was over the rest of the force lights a large forrest fire north of their position to hide their scent from the Xiticix and use it as a shield that the Xiticix were unwilling to pass, especially as the army was by this stage moving south east away from the hivelands.

Or something like that.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, seriously, you guys are kicking this dead horse to the point that it's now a scattered pile of dust. so i'll say this.

Does it honestly matter? Seriously, doing the 'impossible' is what this game is all about. If you've never played a game where your characters have pulled off a certain death situations and won through to the end i honestly have pitty on the horrably boring games you've been playing. Do your characters all sit arround playing darts and discuss the weather?

No, we do the difficult but possible. We fight, we kill, we use tactics, strategy, bravery and luck.
We do NOT use crappy deus ex machina garbage in order to save the day. If we did, then we wouldn't even need to actually play Rifts; we'd just pretend that we did.

So what if an NPC was able to pull off the same? As someone pointed out, this guy has a habit of being lucky. This game is is all about this kind of thing. Is it unlikely that this was able to happen? Definatly, but not impossible. Heck, if you're going to complain about this then what about the odds of both japan turning on their warp gates the exact moment the ley lines errupted? That a dragon was able to work as a librarian in chi town for several years? Seriously, you guys would have an easier time arguing about the continuity of the simpsons than an rpg that's different for every player group and the main setting revolves arround reality being shattered!

It's like the Bus Jump in the movie Speed.
It is poor writing, and poor storytelling. It's hard for the audience to suspend disbelief when the writers throw believability out the window.

[grandmaster z0b]

Just to play Devils Advocate here...

There's absolutely no in-character evidence to say that the super-intelligent soldier castes, let alone the mega-super-intelligent queens won't recognise the law of diminishing returns when it comes to prey.

No-one, and that means no-one on Rifts Earth has ever /tried/ marching even a couple of thousand heavy mechanised troopers into Hive territory, let alone nearly a third of the adult male military-age population of the C.S. (but that's a different argument ^_^ ). Hell, no-one but the C.S. and Triax /have/ those kind of forces deployed in the field (Atlantis is pointedly not deploying those kind of forces anywhere, because it likes being able to stay on the planet without having to fight a war that would probably destroy it).

Given that they would all have been low-P.P.E. and quite specifically avoiding aggressive contact with any representatives of the nest who didn't outright attack them, it's not impossible that the usual 'get them' response got edited by some fairly bright local hive-commanders after the first couple of patrols met up with blast-radius plasma missiles and the initial wave of coalition casualties happened, none of whom were mages.

It's not necessarily what happened, but it's as plausable a line of thinking as any - though I of course say that from the position of not having bothered with the SoT books from something of a lack of interest at the time.

In xiticix Invasion it clearly states that the CS know about Super-Warriors and Queens and that they are clearly far more intelligent than normal Xiticix. The CS got the data from Orion Greefield and CS agents who crept into hives for this info. Furthermore it states that the CS have been very open with this data and have provided it to states like Lazlo in the hope they will use it to kill the Xiticix for them.

[Prince Artemis]

oh, my mistakes, the difficult but possible huh? that's a relative term you know. heck, me passing university calculous is difficult but possible.

Now, one thing i can't do is call down lighting with a few words and a gesture, throw things arround with my mind, phase through walls, take a tank round to the chest without fliching, survive in space in casual wear or shot someone one handed with a rifle behind my back using a spoon. These are Impossibilities and improbabilities, all of which the average pc is capable of and in some case even more amazing things.

to site something someone else brought up:
Xiticix Invasion, p. 11
"Large groups of invaders (more than 20) typically elicit a massive swarm of Warriors with two Xiticix for every one invader; giant robots and vehicles will earn 4-8 Warriors each."

okay, so what happens if they can't have the numbers advantage that this clearly illustrates is their standard mode of operations. Likely, they make minor attacks with a few bugs occasionally to see if they can splinter the main group and take out those that give chase. as far as i've seen they didn't survive unscathed and people did die, someone mentioned 100k died. You wondered about food and water? well, 100k dead is alot of readily available meat, especially since the bugs only use kinetic attacks(spears, swords, and tk weapons). this means most of the meat left over is likely paste, purie, but not vaporized meaning it is edible. Fluids can be gained by recycling urine, and proper rationing, not to mention that the xiticix's terraforming efforts don't stop precipitation from occuring.

Now, if you're going to say that the cs would never canabalize your own men, consider the circumstances. They're fighting for their very survival with the goal of having the ultimate surprise attack. They don't know that the mages have left from where they chased them in so they can't leave there, so when worse comes to worse you do what you can to survive. Also consider that these people are heavily trained(despite popular opinion to the contrary) and they would do whatever their commanding officer told you to do, espeically since not doing so would just mean you'd likely end up joining the next meal. gruesome, yes, horrible, yes, likely, darn tooting in that situation.

dues ex machina? not quite. the 'come out of no where' type deals have happen countless times in war. in ww2 i do beleive(it may have been ww1, i don't have the book near by to check) there was a hill, fortified with a machine gun and the troops there were using mustard gas. 2 american squads and a british squad were slaughtered there. the only people in the area were newfoundland engineers so they were given the mission. They pissed on some rags and tied them over their mouths and noses and were able to take the hill since the gunners at the top never even considered they'd survive the mustard gas and were cought completely off guard. Now, does this story sound familiar?

[cornholioprime]

Also consider that these people are heavily trained(despite popular opinion to the contrary) and they would do whatever their commanding officer told you to do, espeically since not doing so would just mean you'd likely end up joining the next meal. gruesome, yes, horrible, yes, likely, darn tooting in that situation.

Brother, there ain't an Army in the Megaverse who would, in "real life," NOT fire upon an Enemy who was delivering unto them such horrendous casualties.

What makes it even worse is that, according to the Books, nobody seemed to fire a sucessful shot off even before Holmes gave his order!!!

Somebody, somewhere in the Ranks -a whole bunch of somebodies -would have inevitably snapped.

ESPECIALLY the Soldier in question who was getting literally chewed on but who was still alive.

Go ahead, I dare you. Just TRY and tell me that some General's Orders are gonna stop you from killing at least one of the Bugs before you yourself go down.

That should have released the Death Scent, and not too long after that, a certain General and about 500,000 of his Troops should have been Nit Sludge on the floor of an X-Tunnel.....

[Prince Artemis]

i never said they didn't take shots, i'm more making the case of the possibility. seriously, i think it's a rather spectacular event that they did it but my case is entirely on the 'it's entirely possible' which, unless i completely misread the topic's title is the real issue here. Yes there are TONNES of ways the plan could and likely would have blown up in their faces. probably along the same risk lines that human beings form correctly at birth. Yes, there are people with birth defects but there are certainly alot of normal healthy people. (seriously, if you knew even half the possible causes for someone to be born with birth defects/malformations/birth complications that lead to death, ect. you'd be stunned that we somehow manage to be born at all)

[Killer Cyborg]

oh, my mistakes, the difficult but possible huh? that's a relative term you know. heck, me passing university calculous is difficult but possible.

Now, one thing i can't do is call down lighting with a few words and a gesture, throw things arround with my mind, phase through walls, take a tank round to the chest without fliching, survive in space in casual wear or shot someone one handed with a rifle behind my back using a spoon. These are Impossibilities and improbabilities, all of which the average pc is capable of and in some case even more amazing things.

Magic is possible within the context of the game world.
What Holmes did is not.

to site something someone else brought up:
Xiticix Invasion, p. 11
"Large groups of invaders (more than 20) typically elicit a massive swarm of Warriors with two Xiticix for every one invader; giant robots and vehicles will earn 4-8 Warriors each."

okay, so what happens if they can't have the numbers advantage that this clearly illustrates is their standard mode of operations.

What makes you think that's what happened here?
A mature hive will have 1-200 million or more xiticix in it. Larger hives have more, up to 500 million.

Likely, they make minor attacks with a few bugs occasionally to see if they can splinter the main group and take out those that give chase.

More likely, they'd follow similar tactics to when they encounter lesser groups of travelers. They'd send in a team to attack, which would "fight to the death and battle until all the interlopers are destroyed!" (even if the travelers try to flee), and if that team got wiped out there would be another waiting to move in as soon as the previous team was down to its last man. "This process is repeated until the intruders are slain."

as far as i've seen they didn't survive unscathed and people did die, someone mentioned 100k died.

A token gesture tossed vaguely in the direction of plausibility, but about as realistic as it would have been for Custer's men to only take minor losses, or even lose 1/5 of their number but to survive.

You wondered about food and water?

No. I don't think that eating would be on their list of priorities.

dues ex machina? not quite. the 'come out of no where' type deals have happen countless times in war. in ww2 i do beleive(it may have been ww1, i don't have the book near by to check) there was a hill, fortified with a machine gun and the troops there were using mustard gas. 2 american squads and a british squad were slaughtered there. the only people in the area were newfoundland engineers so they were given the mission. They pissed on some rags and tied them over their mouths and noses and were able to take the hill since the gunners at the top never even considered they'd survive the mustard gas and were cought completely off guard. Now, does this story sound familiar?

No.
It might compare to Holmes' trick if they marched through Nazi territory in open view and emerged unscathed.

[Prince Artemis]

Well, i'm going to fly the original flag i've flown. that you guys are beating a dead horse so far into the ground it's come out the other side and you won't even consider other options, but just one last point i'd like to make before i go. if the hive had that many soldiers why didn't they just over throw tolkeen long ago? seriously, as much as they attack any intruders they also like to spread and they intend to know that tolkeen is gone according to aftermath.

anyway, obviously your view is entirely right and everything everyone else says is wrong and the writers of the series should cut their hands off so that they may never commit such a litterary abortion ever again.

to quote homer simpsons: "now that's sarcasm!"

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, i'm going to fly the original flag i've flown. that you guys are beating a dead horse so far into the ground it's come out the other side and you won't even consider other options, but just one last point i'd like to make before i go. if the hive had that many soldiers why didn't they just over throw tolkeen long ago? seriously, as much as they attack any intruders they also like to spread and they intend to know that tolkeen is gone according to aftermath.

Seriously, READ the Xiticix Invasion book. The expand their territory in incremental steps, regardless of other species and their populations or numbers.

anyway, obviously your view is entirely right and everything everyone else says is wrong and the writers of the series should cut their hands off so that they may never commit such a litterary abortion ever again.

to quote homer simpsons: "now that's sarcasm!"

"My view" is the official text of the game books. I'm not making this stuff up, read the book.
The writers shouldn't cut off their hands, but they certainly should be a lot more careful about what they write, and what they have written in the past. It's only human to make mistakes, but it's folly to pretend that the mistakes were never made, or that they weren't mistakes.

[grandmaster z0b]

...dues ex machina? not quite. the 'come out of no where' type deals have happen countless times in war. in ww2 i do beleive(it may have been ww1, i don't have the book near by to check) there was a hill, fortified with a machine gun and the troops there were using mustard gas. 2 american squads and a british squad were slaughtered there. the only people in the area were newfoundland engineers so they were given the mission. They pissed on some rags and tied them over their mouths and noses and were able to take the hill since the gunners at the top never even considered they'd survive the mustard gas and were cought completely off guard. Now, does this story sound familiar?

Yes but there is a good explanation as to how they pulled it off, they didn't just march up the hill and take it due to being lucky, they had an intelligent plan.

I would be happy to believe the Holmes story if they had used some strategy or plan to explain how it worked.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

page 11 yup and a couple of smoke grenades launched into Xiticix mouths, would teach the others not to mess with that one over there.

I wish everybody stop acting like Holmes just walked thru there untouched

He losed 25% of his troops and armor and only used non-lethal defensive moves, poke, jab and swat with the use of smoke for 72 hours then after that 60% of the xiticix broke off, maybe they saw the CS was no longer a threat( both sides have faced each other ) the other 40% stayed with them and hover, buzzed them and did lone random attacks with no attacks back for three weeks

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

IMO, it was about as possible as me suddenly attaining ultimate dominion over mankind and ruling it with an iron fist for eternity. Not totally impossible, but really, really far down the scale of probability.

[cornholioprime]

page 11 yup and a couple of smoke grenades launched into Xiticix mouths, would teach the others not to mess with that one over there.

I wish everybody stop acting like Holmes just walked thru there untouched

He losed 25% of his troops and armor and only used non-lethal defensive moves, poke, jab and swat with the use of smoke for 72 hours then after that 60% of the xiticix broke off, maybe they saw the CS was no longer a threat( both sides have faced each other ) the other 40% stayed with them and hover, buzzed them and did lone random attacks with no attacks back for three weeks

When I get back I'll shoot all this balderdash out of the water.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

page 11 yup and a couple of smoke grenades launched into Xiticix mouths, would teach the others not to mess with that one over there.

I wish everybody stop acting like Holmes just walked thru there untouched

He losed 25% of his troops and armor and only used non-lethal defensive moves, poke, jab and swat with the use of smoke for 72 hours then after that 60% of the xiticix broke off, maybe they saw the CS was no longer a threat( both sides have faced each other ) the other 40% stayed with them and hover, buzzed them and did lone random attacks with no attacks back for three weeks

When I get back I'll shoot all this balderdash out of the water.

please do

[Jack Daniels]

He losed 25% of his troops and armor and only used non-lethal defensive moves, poke, jab and swat with the use of smoke for 72 hours then after that 60% of the xiticix broke off, maybe they saw the CS was no longer a threat( both sides have faced each other ) the other 40% stayed with them and hover, buzzed them and did lone random attacks with no attacks back for three weeks

When I get back I'll shoot all this balderdash out of the water.

please do

I'll take a shot and make it quick. You served in the military right? How likely is it that you would have sat there while 1 in 4 of your mates got carried off/killed in front of you? How likely is it that you would not have tried to defend one of them by killing their attacker? Now how likely is it that everyone of your 500,000 young scared tired soldiers would have your same restraint?
Like you say, it's not impossible, but I'm far more likely to get Angelina, Sarah, and George Bush all in an orgy with me than it is that Jericho Holmes could succeed at that stunt as it was written.

[Samored II]

Holmes could have pulled off his maneuver, if he planned and re-tooled his forces to specificially counter the Xiticix. Since he pulled the idea out of his butt in the middle of a combat retreat his troops would lack the specialized equipment and supplies they'd need to get through the Hivelands. Do you have any idea the amount of water 500,000 troops would need every day while on the march? Something like 3000 calories and two gallons of potable water per man per day. That's two million gallons of water just to get out of the initial 72 hours of heavy combat. Assuming the Bugs didn't hit the tanker trucks and no evaporation loss or spillage. Jerico might be a millitary genius but unless he could conjure up 16 million pounds of H2O, his men die of dehydration before the Swarm ever pulls back, or they die slowly hiking across the Hivelands because you can't scrounge food and water for 400,000 people while keeping in close formation and not pissing off the Xiticix.

[Samored II]

The Xiticix keep attacking any large group until all are slain, no matter how many of their warriors it takes to do it.
They don't back off.
They don't retreat.
If you were one of the 25% of the soldiers that got killed, I'm 1,000,000% certain that you'd open fire when the xiticix is trying to carry you off to the hive or is peeling open your armor with a megadamage xiticix can opener. Unless you were lobotomized temporarily for the trip there's NO WAY IN HEAVEN OR EARTH THAT THE SOLDIERS BEING BUTCHERED did not open fire. None. Not even a little chance. Not even a teeny tiny chance.
I don't care if the guy next to him, whose been his best friend for 10 years, decides not to open fire. The guy whose being made into a xiticix chew toy is going to shoot....repeatedly....

9 people or less, maximum, should have come out of the hivelands alive, under any circumstances.

So you're saying Xiticix Invasion has still been Highlander 2-ed?

[Slag]

Do I think Holmes could realistically pull it off?

NO.

Do I really believe we live in a world where Rifts are just waiting for enough PPE to spit out demons from across the Megaverse, Atlantis is simply phased out for the moment, the Native Americans are quietly waiting in a Spirit Realm for us to kill ourselfs off, and that hand-held pistols will be developed to the point of ridiculous power yet field guns will be neglected and barely be more powerful than they are today?

NO.

Do I think it's time to move on and face the fact that we're stuck with poorly-conceived SoT canon material now half a friggin' decade old?

YES.

Check out what's hangin' over my Ba'als, Foos!

[Slag]

Hmmm...a contradiction in Rifts!

Last time Josh & I noticed two contradictary World Books (CS Navy & Spirit West) we ended up with the green light two World Books and a Sourcebook.

Wouldn't it be crazy if instead of adding to the incessent whining about that which can not be changed someone were to capitalize on this golden opportunity to join the echelons of Palladium Books Freelancers?

[Vrykolas2k]

The Xiticix keep attacking any large group until all are slain, no matter how many of their warriors it takes to do it.
They don't back off.
They don't retreat.
If you were one of the 25% of the soldiers that got killed, I'm 1,000,000% certain that you'd open fire when the xiticix is trying to carry you off to the hive or is peeling open your armor with a megadamage xiticix can opener. Unless you were lobotomized temporarily for the trip there's NO WAY IN HEAVEN OR EARTH THAT THE SOLDIERS BEING BUTCHERED did not open fire. None. Not even a little chance. Not even a teeny tiny chance.
I don't care if the guy next to him, whose been his best friend for 10 years, decides not to open fire. The guy whose being made into a xiticix chew toy is going to shoot....repeatedly....

Oh, and on top of that, a large portion of the frontline troops are specifically stated as being dogboys and psi-stalkers. Yeah, no psi-stalkers or dogboys opened fire when the alien monsters were attacking....right....


And unless the contingent just happened to snag APCs full of supplies or turned to cannibalism which we haven't heard about, they'd have starved. They were in the hivelands for months. Even if the above occurred, they didn't have drinking water. Dead in a week. The hivelands are desolate wastes. And to get water from rivers they'd have to get out of the APCs and stock up...there are millions of xiticix trying to get at them in their "suddenly invulnerable to MDC weapons" APCs. What joker got the short straw to open the door and dunk a million convenient canteens into the river?


9 people or less, maximum, should have come out of the hivelands alive, under any circumstances. They should have been disheveled, half-crazed, starved, dehydrated, suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and incapable of attacking a Florida nursing home effectively.

Yet another point I was going to get to.
I was in the army myself, and I'm pretty sure if some idiotic officer had ordered us not to fire back when we were being butchered, there would have been one less officer to push paper-work at the end of the week.
As far as the post-traumatic stress, it's also possible that all they would do is attack everyone and everything in sight for the rest of their lives.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hmmm...a contradiction in Rifts!

Last time Josh & I noticed two contradictary World Books (CS Navy & Spirit West) we ended up with the green light two World Books and a Sourcebook.

Wouldn't it be crazy if instead of adding to the incessent whining about that which can not be changed someone were to capitalize on this golden opportunity to join the echelons of Palladium Books Freelancers?

The only way I can see to capitalize on this golden opportunity is so change what happened. As of this moment, what happened makes no sense. Sure, I could come up with a fix to the problem (like Vanguard mages casting large-scale sanctuary spells or something), but it's not number 1 on my "to do" list. I've got plenty of projects in mind already.


And complaining about story problems is not "whining", not if it's a legitimate complaint. Which this is.
Not to mention that people have pretty much stopped bringing their complaints up in the forums, except when people pop up who deny the problem exists. That's when you get people pointing out how lame that part of SoT is.

As a wise man once said, "Do I think it's time to move on and face the fact that we're stuck with poorly-conceived SoT canon material now half a friggin' decade old? YES."

Which means that not only do people need to face the fact that this is canon (which, really, people already do face... they just don't like it), but that everybody needs to face up to the fact that this material was poorly conceived.

I have nothing against a writer coming in and fixing the problem, but it does annoy me when people cannot admit that it IS a problem.

[cornholioprime]

I have nothing against a writer coming in and fixing the problem, but it does annoy me when people cannot admit that it IS a problem.

:ok:

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Holmes never challenged Xiticix and had his troops keep on moving

[Sureshot]

I have nothing against a writer coming in and fixing the problem, but it does annoy me when people cannot admit that it IS a problem.

:ok:

Seconded.

[Samored II]

I have nothing against a writer coming in and fixing the problem, but it does annoy me when people cannot admit that it IS a problem.

:ok:

Agreed.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Holmes never challenged Xiticix and had his troops keep on moving

That has nothing to do with the issue....there's no mention of either challenging the xiticix or keeping moving as being a factor in their behavior. It's like saying "they made it out because water south of the equator goes down the drain counterclockwise."

really??that's not what page 11 says

[Mech-Viper Prime]

its canon deal with it, i win, you lose, you like that answer i sure do

holmes had they at 2 to 1 odds or 1.6 to 1 depending on the number

i know the information bewteen SOT and XI makes little sense

it should have been over 1 million or maybe close to 2 millions Xiticix on top of Holmes and his troops, but that is close to the entire xiticix population or half depending on who information you want to believe, so every xiticix is going to rush to a rival's defensive and leave their own area open to attack?

if someone can find where holmes and his troops got push all the way to the doorstep of the hive itself please do.

[Killer Cyborg]

i know the information bewteen SOT and XI makes little sense

So there ya go.

[grandmaster z0b]

Hmmm...a contradiction in Rifts!

Last time Josh & I noticed two contradictary World Books (CS Navy & Spirit West) we ended up with the green light two World Books and a Sourcebook.

Wouldn't it be crazy if instead of adding to the incessent whining about that which can not be changed someone were to capitalize on this golden opportunity to join the echelons of Palladium Books Freelancers?

So you noticed a contradiction and *poof* in a puff of smoke you became PB freelancers?
I fail to see what this has to do with our current discussion or what your comment does to help.

If you don't like the "incessent whining" then don't read this thread and certainly don't post in it.

I'm sick of threads where people are having a healthy discussion about a topic get sidetracked by these kinds of useless comments.

[Slag]

I'm sorry everyone...bi-, er, continue on on. I'm sure the 10,000th time we discuss it a resolution will present itself.