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Isn't really a given set of stats to roll for a god. Gods are unique and powerful beings, with massive and varied abilities. You can pretty much create whatever you want, and call it a god. Base the power level on the gods provided in D&G, according to where you want your pantheon to be relative to them.

One of the major shortcomings of D&G is the ack of a table/template for rolling up original gods.

Rodney Stott wrote:

Sentinel wrote:One of the major shortcomings of D&G is the ack of a table/template for rolling up original gods.

never considered that a major shortcoming with the book myself, just the ommitted religion summary information from 1st ed fantasy.

After all gods are just too unique to be put down to series of random tables, after all designing a God of Wizards worshiped by main stream races is definately going to be different from designing a god of rains being worshipped by some primitive jungle tribe and probably will not just fit into some table.

With a a table to roll Spirits of Light, Alien Intelligences, Adult Dragons, and Elemental Beings, I didn't see where a template for gods was out of place.

I wanted to add a few more Gods to our campaigns so I rolled up
versions of the Minor Pantheon of the Church of Light and Dark. I used
both Pantheon of the Megaverse and Dragons and Gods as a template
and I researched some background information about who these gods
actually were. They are not as nearly as powerful as the Gods of Light
and Dark, but they are not as weak as the Lost Pantheon found in
Northern Hinterlands. However, they do take more of an active role
since they are eagerly looking for new worshipers/followers in order
to get out of the sub-group. In other words they want bigger statues
at the Church of Light and Dark. I even added one (Serket the Scorpion
Goddess) because she seemed to fit perfectly in the PF setting.

I don't consider a table for gods necessary or desirable honestly.

Spirits of Light numbers in the hundreds of thousands, AI's can be found in countless dimensions, Adult Dragons and Elemental Being are around in vast quantities.

Gods, however, are unique and individual, and aren't especially common.

I think the reason there isn't a table to roll up new ones is because all the PF gods that are on that power scale are listed - there aren't others (by canon). Forgotten gods and fallen gods can be found (The Wild Lords, for example, in Northern Hinterlands, or Antipator in Old Ones), but they lack the power of the big ones with their large pantheons and/or flocks of worshippers, and are not every remotely comparable.

Obviously it is 100% ok to make up your own gods, but I think the table is not around because it not something that would fit the canon system.

Sentinel wrote:One of the major shortcomings of D&G is the ack of a table/template for rolling up original gods.

I disagree. One of the major shortcomings of Dragons and Gods was the inclusion of NPC-style stats for the Gods themselves.

Gods arn't ment to be rolled up whatsoever. they're ment to be custom made to fit their own mythos. they arn't randomly spawned, they represent the peoples beliefs and embody them.

MrNexx wrote:

Sentinel wrote:One of the major shortcomings of D&G is the ack of a table/template for rolling up original gods.

I disagree. One of the major shortcomings of Dragons and Gods was the inclusion of NPC-style stats for the Gods themselves.

I like having stats for gods.
I definitely find a value to having the template for:
Demigods. This way, Heracles can adventure with the Argonauts.
Godlings. Lesser powered perhaps, but still mighty tough.
Gods. Thor, Odin, Zues, etc. Y'know, the fun bunch.

In the case that I want to write up a god to an existing pantheon (like adding Sif, Modi, and others to Asgard), it would be nice to have the formula used by the game writer so my stats aren't out of whack.

In the case that I wish to create an original pantheon (possibly for an alien race, or non-human gods for races like Elves or Trolls), then I want my gods to have the same advantages and attributes as the published characters.

Sentinel wrote:I like having stats for gods.
I definitely find a value to having the template for:
Demigods. This way, Heracles can adventure with the Argonauts.
Godlings. Lesser powered perhaps, but still mighty tough.
Gods. Thor, Odin, Zues, etc. Y'know, the fun bunch.

In the case that I want to write up a god to an existing pantheon (like adding Sif, Modi, and others to Asgard), it would be nice to have the formula used by the game writer so my stats aren't out of whack.

In the case that I wish to create an original pantheon (possibly for an alien race, or non-human gods for races like Elves or Trolls), then I want my gods to have the same advantages and attributes as the published characters.

You see, there are two kinds of stats. There are NPC-style stats, and then there are the vital statistics you need to know about a God to play him as a GM.

Sure, having rules for something like a mortal Hercules isn't bad... but I disagree with assigning mortal-style stats to deities. Some kind of stats? Sure. This god grants these spells. His churches tend to be this way. He has these priests. He likes these sacrifices, and has these holy days. Those are a whole lot more useful to me, in game, than knowing Rurga's P.B., especially when they specifically disavowed the gods revealing their true form to mortals.

MrNexx wrote:

Sentinel wrote:I like having stats for gods.
I definitely find a value to having the template for:
Demigods. This way, Heracles can adventure with the Argonauts.
Godlings. Lesser powered perhaps, but still mighty tough.
Gods. Thor, Odin, Zues, etc. Y'know, the fun bunch.

In the case that I want to write up a god to an existing pantheon (like adding Sif, Modi, and others to Asgard), it would be nice to have the formula used by the game writer so my stats aren't out of whack.

In the case that I wish to create an original pantheon (possibly for an alien race, or non-human gods for races like Elves or Trolls), then I want my gods to have the same advantages and attributes as the published characters.

You see, there are two kinds of stats. There are NPC-style stats, and then there are the vital statistics you need to know about a God to play him as a GM.

Sure, having rules for something like a mortal Hercules isn't bad... but I disagree with assigning mortal-style stats to deities. Some kind of stats? Sure. This god grants these spells. His churches tend to be this way. He has these priests. He likes these sacrifices, and has these holy days. Those are a whole lot more useful to me, in game, than knowing Rurga's P.B., especially when they specifically disavowed the gods revealing their true form to mortals.

I tend to need more specific stats, because it is always a possibility (however unlikely) that the group will find themselves in battle with a god.
Bear in mind that in comic style adventures (read Marvels' Thor comics for an idea), high powered supers and other characters find themselves in contention with such beings.
I also need them for comparisson to other high-level powerful beings: it is not un-feasable that the players might be adult dragons, Cosmo-Knights, Godlings, and so on, and they may find themselves in contention with an evil god (who may not yet have worshipers); also, for valid and plausible fluff text, it's nice to see how Thor compares on paper to Shiva.

Sentinel wrote:I also need them for comparisson to other high-level powerful beings: it is not un-feasable that the players might be adult dragons, Cosmo-Knights, Godlings, and so on, and they may find themselves in contention with an evil god (who may not yet have worshipers); also, for valid and plausible fluff text, it's nice to see how Thor compares on paper to Shiva.

See, there's a fun point about Palladium gods... until they have worshippers, they are weak and mortal. There is no such thing in Palladium as a god without worshippers - the power comes from the worshippers. Check out Antipator in PF Old Ones - He used to be an evil god, but his worship faded out, and now he's barely stronger than an average greater deevil.

As they gain worshippers, they gain powers, abilities, and health, but until they reach a certain point (unspecified) they remain mortals, able to be harmed by normal weapons, and subject to lifespan and death (albeit a very very very long lifespan).

MrNexx wrote:Sure, having rules for something like a mortal Hercules isn't bad... but I disagree with assigning mortal-style stats to deities. Some kind of stats? Sure. This god grants these spells. His churches tend to be this way. He has these priests. He likes these sacrifices, and has these holy days. Those are a whole lot more useful to me, in game, than knowing Rurga's P.B., especially when they specifically disavowed the gods revealing their true form to mortals.

no, they said if there's a conflict between two worshipers about what the gods true form is, the god will decline to actually show them the truth not wanting to alienate either worshiper. the statues and such all come from when they do reveal themselves. BIG difference. not to mention the fact there's the fact that all those various love goddesses who reward mortals, well...

See, there's a fun point about Palladium gods... until they have worshippers, they are weak and mortal.

And yet, gods in mythology often exist prior to the rise of man, particularly since the gods create men themselves.
Thus, they would have to be powerful, because they create their own worshipers.

Palladium gods may follow the line of needing worship, but there are more to gods than Palladiums' take on them (and I tend to prefer classical and historical mythology).

Sentinel wrote:

See, there's a fun point about Palladium gods... until they have worshippers, they are weak and mortal.

And yet, gods in mythology often exist prior to the rise of man, particularly since the gods create men themselves.
Thus, they would have to be powerful, because they create their own worshipers.

Palladium gods may follow the line of needing worship, but there are more to gods than Palladiums' take on them (and I tend to prefer classical and historical mythology).

That's perfectly acceptable, but if that's the case, don't ask for a Palladium table for the creation of non-Palladium gods.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:no, they said if there's a conflict between two worshipers about what the gods true form is, the god will decline to actually show them the truth not wanting to alienate either worshiper. the statues and such all come from when they do reveal themselves. BIG difference. not to mention the fact there's the fact that all those various love goddesses who reward mortals, well...

That's silly. That would mean there would be a ton of statues of the God in their true form, and almost no chance for a serious confusion of true form to arise... you might have a question as to whether she had sandy brown hair or dirty blonde, but you're certainly not going to have a "Giant Golden Snake" vs. "Minute Purple Wombat" disagreement if they keep appearing in their true form.

Besides, what they actually said (on page 85 of D&G) is that Gods have a single Primal Manifestation.. how they actually look. However, they might appear differently to any number of different worshippers. They only pull the "Sir Not Appearing in this Adventure" trick if they're trying to avoid the conflict.

MrNexx wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:no, they said if there's a conflict between two worshipers about what the gods true form is, the god will decline to actually show them the truth not wanting to alienate either worshiper. the statues and such all come from when they do reveal themselves. BIG difference. not to mention the fact there's the fact that all those various love goddesses who reward mortals, well...

That's silly. That would mean there would be a ton of statues of the God in their true form, and almost no chance for a serious confusion of true form to arise... you might have a question as to whether she had sandy brown hair or dirty blonde, but you're certainly not going to have a "Giant Golden Snake" vs. "Minute Purple Wombat" disagreement if they keep appearing in their true form.

Besides, what they actually said (on page 85 of D&G) is that Gods have a single Primal Manifestation.. how they actually look. However, they might appear differently to any number of different worshippers. They only pull the "Sir Not Appearing in this Adventure" trick if they're trying to avoid the conflict.

it depends. if the god never actually shows themselves to a particular batch of worshipers, they're most likely to come up with statues and apparences completely on their own.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:it depends. if the god never actually shows themselves to a particular batch of worshipers, they're most likely to come up with statues and apparences completely on their own.

Yes, but then where do those worshippers come from? Why do they start worshipping Panath, if Panath never comes to them?

J. Lionheart wrote:

Sentinel wrote:

See, there's a fun point about Palladium gods... until they have worshippers, they are weak and mortal.

And yet, gods in mythology often exist prior to the rise of man, particularly since the gods create men themselves.
Thus, they would have to be powerful, because they create their own worshipers.

Palladium gods may follow the line of needing worship, but there are more to gods than Palladiums' take on them (and I tend to prefer classical and historical mythology).

That's perfectly acceptable, but if that's the case, don't ask for a Palladium table for the creation of non-Palladium gods.

It would be necessary to establish parameters for gods that haven't been written to help maintain internal consistency.
Palladium has seen fit to give us Thor and his son Magni. But, they left out Sif (Thors' wife) and Modi, Thors' other son. I could use a table/template to write these characters up and keep them in line with the existing characters if one existed.
With such a table I could write up either (A) a complete pantheon of classical gods of mythology, or (B) write up a wholly original pantheon of my own.

Erick Wujcik wrote:

MrNexx wrote:Yes, but then where do those worshippers come from? Why do they start worshipping Panath, if Panath never comes to them?

As a god, Panath can then choose to perform deifically, or magically, or psionically, or just speak (anything from a voice like thunder, to the soft whisper in just one person's ear) without ever actually appearing.

Yes, Erick, but while Panath can do these things, and it is to his advantage to do them to gain worshippers, wouldn't it be further to his advantage to have a regularity of appearance... i.e. he may not always be a human, but he always looks somewhat similar, no matter his race? Wouldn't encouraging this lessen the problems his faithful would have within the faith?

But it then goes back to the original point of the discussion... do gods reveal themselves in the primal manifestation? If they do so, and you have works of art based off these appearances in primal manifestation appearing independantly in several different places, that certainly reduces the claims of others to have seen the true form.

MrNexx wrote:Yes, Erick, but while Panath can do these things, and it is to his advantage to do them to gain worshippers, wouldn't it be further to his advantage to have a regularity of appearance... i.e. he may not always be a human, but he always looks somewhat similar, no matter his race? Wouldn't encouraging this lessen the problems his faithful would have within the faith?

But it then goes back to the original point of the discussion... do gods reveal themselves in the primal manifestation? If they do so, and you have works of art based off these appearances in primal manifestation appearing independantly in several different places, that certainly reduces the claims of others to have seen the true form.

Remember that most people in the PF world will never go more than, say, 20 miles from their homes. They will never meet the other worshippers in other areas, nor have reason to have conflict with them.

It would be very helpful to the process of gaining worshippers to appear to each group in a form familiar to that group. Appear as a human to the humans, to avoid scaring them. Appear as a big, powerful ogre to the goblins, to earn their respect. Appear as a small woodland spirit to the gnomes, to appeal to their compassion, the like.

Okay, so there's nothing in the books on creating your own deity. Surely our collective IQ can come up with something......right?

Maybe a building chart along the lines of a VU or NSS organization?

With that line of thought, what would be the 15 or so top necessities when making a god?

I can think of:

Size of pantheon/number of fellow beings.
Rank in above pantheon.
Alignment.
Number of current worshippers.
Rate of mortals' conversions.
Size of the area of specialization (god of fire vs god of chandlers, for example).
Method of attaining deityhood.
Quantity of raw deific power.

Anyone else think of another category?

Also, what about sub-dividing the above into 6 tiers of weakest/strongest?

Size of pantheon -
1. Solitaire - You are a pantheon of one, a monotheistic deity. Therefore, you are trying to carve out your own little niche on your own. Makes the dinner parties a little lonely.
2. Sister Act - The total number can be counted on one hand. Like any small family, sibling rivalry is ugly, but only until someone outside the family agrees with your family rants.
3. Enough for in-laws - There about a dozen of you all living together on the same pantheon plane. Still plenty of elbow room, but at least you can avoid Aunt Ethel and her "When I was a godling, we showed our elders respect!" rants. At least for a little while.
4. Over the Hill - if the number of fellow gods equalled age, you'd be ordering one of those black milestone cakes. Enough to where you're starting to forget names if you don't look at your address book. But still small enough for people to remember that you forgot to send them a solstice card last decade.
5. It Takes a Village - getting fairly large on the pantheon scale. You're pushing the 3 digit figure, give or take a few minor gods of swamp water.
6. Super-Size - your fellow gods number into the hundreds, and you've never even met half of them, even at the pantheon reunion parties.

Anyone else want to add to it?

[quote="Natalya"]Okay, so there's nothing in the books on creating your own deity. Surely our collective IQ can come up with something......right?[quote]

I'm sorry, Nat, but I refuse to even CONSIDER that idea. Simply because I believe, deeply, that assigning stats to gods was the third biggest mistake PB made. Paying so little attention to the PF line was number 2, and assigning stats to the Old Ones (1st edition) was the STUPIDEST thing.

I mean, come on people, these are GODS. giving them stats is simply a justification for being able to have PCs kill them. And before anyone says "impossible", wrong. I've been in God-killing campaigns. Not impossible, just tough. Especially if you have a high-level (ie, about 3 PC's, with average of 20 levels) it's not even all that difficult. Its just a matter of being smart about it.

Anyone else think of another category?

Source of Immortality.
The Asgardians had to eat the Golden Apples of Idun (rhymes with "Eden"?)
Olympians did not.
Shiva did not.

Minions.
Jehovah has his Angels.
Odin has his Valkyrie.
Hephastus has his Cyclops.

Goliath Strongarm wrote:Especially if you have a high-level (ie, about 3 PC's, with average of 20 levels)

I'm happy if I make it to 5th level

Edit: and I agree, gods should not have stats..

I mean, come on people, these are GODS. giving them stats is simply a justification for being able to have PCs kill them. And before anyone says "impossible", wrong. I've been in God-killing campaigns. Not impossible, just tough. Especially if you have a high-level (ie, about 3 PC's, with average of 20 levels) it's not even all that difficult. Its just a matter of being smart about it.

Yes, but being a god is not the end all be all of the universe.
And nowhere does it say that in assigning stats that they have to be low enough for anything less than a party full of high powered chjaracters can take them.
The stats of the gods in Pantheons of the Megaverse certainly don't make them look easier to kill to me.
Giving them stats on the other hand, helps to put them in a perspective to other characters (player and non-player alike) particularly for those who use them regularly.
In my own HU campaign, I let a player run Thor: it worked out well.

Generally, my players have been unable to actually kill a god, as they usually retire to their home planes before they take too much damage.

MrNexx wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:it depends. if the god never actually shows themselves to a particular batch of worshipers, they're most likely to come up with statues and apparences completely on their own.

Yes, but then where do those worshippers come from? Why do they start worshipping Panath, if Panath never comes to them?

they do see a traveling preacher. that's what the Preist OCC is for after all.

I mean, how many jews do you know that have personally seen god? you don't need to see a god to start worshiping them...

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I mean, how many jews do you know that have personally seen god? you don't need to see a god to start worshiping them...

That's a faulty analogy, however. In those cases, they usually have a family and comunity history of following that deity, in that way. Moses saw God (or at least his messenger), who told him,at one point along the way, not to make any statues. Ergo, they don't.

A travelling preacher might introduce worship into an area, but then that's also likely to introduce the iconography (i.e. pictures and statues) of the church... you don't just do drive-by conversion, most of the time. While these may differ somewhat for local flavor, you're still not getting golden snake vs. purple wombat.

Dragons and Gods, page 85 wrote:As to having several appearances, that's something that most gods do routinely. For example, a god worshipped by different races might appear to reflect the appearance of particular worshippers (looks like an Elf to Elves, and like an Orc to Orcs, etc). In other words, members of different congregations may see the same god in different ways.

When push comes to shove, and when they are visited by worshippers with different visions, the god will have to pick a form, and manifest itself in that one way ("See? I told you she was a giant serpent. How could you ever believe that kid's story about her being a fairy with gossamer wings?").

Golden Snake, meet Purple Wombat.

J. Lionheart wrote:

Dragons and Gods, page 85 wrote:As to having several appearances, that's something that most gods do routinely. For example, a god worshipped by different races might appear to reflect the appearance of particular worshippers (looks like an Elf to Elves, and like an Orc to Orcs, etc). In other words, members of different congregations may see the same god in different ways.

When push comes to shove, and when they are visited by worshippers with different visions, the god will have to pick a form, and manifest itself in that one way ("See? I told you she was a giant serpent. How could you ever believe that kid's story about her being a fairy with gossamer wings?").

Golden Snake, meet Purple Wombat.

Kormath meet Korameth

Now let this discussion REALLY get going...

Goliath Strongarm wrote:

Natalya wrote:Okay, so there's nothing in the books on creating your own deity. Surely our collective IQ can come up with something......right?

I'm sorry, Nat, but I refuse to even CONSIDER that idea. Simply because I believe, deeply, that assigning stats to gods was the third biggest mistake PB made. Paying so little attention to the PF line was number 2, and assigning stats to the Old Ones (1st edition) was the STUPIDEST thing.

I mean, come on people, these are GODS. giving them stats is simply a justification for being able to have PCs kill them. And before anyone says "impossible", wrong. I've been in God-killing campaigns. Not impossible, just tough. Especially if you have a high-level (ie, about 3 PC's, with average of 20 levels) it's not even all that difficult. Its just a matter of being smart about it.

Stats don't have to be created, if you don't like. But a method towards creating a new deity (size of pantheon, place in pantheon, general level of power, specific abilities, family tree) would be helpful, would fill most of what people are asking for, and is something that could be brainstormed here.

J. Lionheart wrote:

Dragons and Gods, page 85 wrote:As to having several appearances, that's something that most gods do routinely. For example, a god worshipped by different races might appear to reflect the appearance of particular worshippers (looks like an Elf to Elves, and like an Orc to Orcs, etc). In other words, members of different congregations may see the same god in different ways.

When push comes to shove, and when they are visited by worshippers with different visions, the god will have to pick a form, and manifest itself in that one way ("See? I told you she was a giant serpent. How could you ever believe that kid's story about her being a fairy with gossamer wings?").

Golden Snake, meet Purple Wombat.

I'm aware of it, J. That's part of why I've been using the golden snake line. However, it still doesn't explain WHY they would have such widely divergent images. Appearing as an elf to elves, and a dwarf to dwarves? Sure, no problem. But why a purple wombat or a golden snake?

The problem is we're given no religious background. We're given character stats. We don't know anything about the cults that worship them, why they believe what they do, or how various things developed... but we can tell you how much damage a deity can do in hand to hand combat. Could I make it up? Sure. But there aren't even coherent guidelines... Dragons and Gods is nearly useless for religious purposes.

Not unlike dragons.

Natalya wrote:Stats don't have to be created, if you don't like. But a method towards creating a new deity (size of pantheon, place in pantheon, general level of power, specific abilities, family tree) would be helpful, would fill most of what people are asking for, and is something that could be brainstormed here.

No need for brainstorming -- why reinvent the wheel? Though I'm reluctant to invoke the title on the Palladium boards, given the old lawsuit, I'll hope for the best and assume it's all water under the bridge by now.

If you want your own unique pantheon of gods, as well as a framework within which they can and should interact with the world of mortals, look no further than Wizards of the Coast's first product -- The Primal Order. It's a terrific book, and it belongs on the shelf of any GM who wants to put his own stamp on religion in his campaign. Here's a copy on Ebay.

Wow, talk about timing. An e-magazine I get just had a feature issue on deity creation. It took almost a week, but it finally hit the online archives, so everyone can read it.

http://www.roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=313

Yisterwald wrote:

Natalya wrote:Stats don't have to be created, if you don't like. But a method towards creating a new deity (size of pantheon, place in pantheon, general level of power, specific abilities, family tree) would be helpful, would fill most of what people are asking for, and is something that could be brainstormed here.

No need for brainstorming -- why reinvent the wheel? Though I'm reluctant to invoke the title on the Palladium boards, given the old lawsuit, I'll hope for the best and assume it's all water under the bridge by now.

If you want your own unique pantheon of gods, as well as a framework within which they can and should interact with the world of mortals, look no further than Wizards of the Coast's first product -- The Primal Order. It's a terrific book, and it belongs on the shelf of any GM who wants to put his own stamp on religion in his campaign. Here's a copy on Ebay.

I've read through it, and it isn't a bad book.
But, I feel Palladium characters should be able to be created with Palladium sourcebooks.
While it's a good idea to look into source material from other systems, one shouldn't have to look elsewhere exclusively for that material.