Consiquences for CS actions

[Warmaster40k]

Is it me, or is it that nothing ever happens to the CS no matter what atrocities they commit, Lets look at the Tolkeen war Prosek promised a large force of soldiers Citizenship for them and their family but he weltched on his oath. So what do Gen Holmes and his forces do, what about all the countries in north america do. I mean how come the coalition can get away with all their actions but the moment some one does something a .1 as bad all hell falls on their head. So in the end is there no justice in the World of Rifts.

[Killer Cyborg]

Is it me, or is it that nothing ever happens to the CS no matter what atrocities they commit, Lets look at the Tolkeen war Prosek promised a large force of soldiers Citizenship for them and their family but he weltched on his oath. So what do Gen Holmes and his forces do, what about all the countries in north america do. I mean how come the coalition can get away with all their actions but the moment some one does something a .1 as bad all hell falls on their head. So in the end is there no justice in the World of Rifts.

I'm not sure what exactly you are saying/asking.
If it's along the lines of, "Why doesn't somebody do something about the CS?", then the answer is, "Because they can't. The CS would kill them. They're still the biggest, baddest empire in North America."

[Warmaster40k]

well the same could have been said WW2 Germany. Divided they dont stand a chance but united they can tackle the beast i mean one person cant slay a dragon but a group can.

[Killer Cyborg]

well the same could have been said WW2 Germany. Divided they dont stand a chance but united they can tackle the beast i mean one person cant slay a dragon but a group can.

Even if every other power in North America teamed up, they still couldn't take the Coalition.
But they're not going to team up anyway.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Is it me, or is it that nothing ever happens to the CS no matter what atrocities they commit, Lets look at the Tolkeen war Prosek promised a large force of soldiers Citizenship for them and their family but he weltched on his oath. So what do Gen Holmes and his forces do, what about all the countries in north america do. I mean how come the coalition can get away with all their actions but the moment some one does something a .1 as bad all hell falls on their head. So in the end is there no justice in the World of Rifts.

what COULD they do? weakened as they are, there's no other nation on NA that COULD do anything to them if they wanted to.

[Prince Artemis]

actually, not to ruin aftermath of the war, there are consequences. Dunscon is gathering all of the still angry tolkeen refugees and plans to attack the coalition in a second war. They plan on using storm spire for bait so that the cs will basically seem the agressors.

Most kingdoms and countries actually think that the cs is out for content domination which is furthest from the truth. They are hurting after the war and are concentrating purely on keeping the land they took during the war as well as continued defense of their states.

People are slowly trickling out of kingsdale as most think that the CS will just swat them easily, however they have no intention to as they fear retribution from the JLA, the borg community, as well as the fairly large areas that kingsdale is trading partners with(including the federation, los alamos(powerful thanks to naruni), ect. Because the CS fears an attack while they are significantly weakened, kingsdale is perhaps the safest place in north america from the cs.

Aftermath of the war was a great book in that it showed that the cs will pay for their arrogance. They have few allies and many enemies and they're going to be hard pressed to survive against the federation of magic's new attempt.

[Nekira Sudacne]

There's always Atlantis...

Yes, a place even more evil than the CS. why exsactly would they care that the CS is preforming atrocities? they'd find it amusing.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

lets see

a blight in the farmlands 0f Missouri

Pecos raiders hitting el dorado harder since they joined CS

El dorado is in the target sight of Dunscon

If Karl Prosek plans to continue to screw the soldiers and thier families out of citizenship , there will be a civil wars, with holmes leading the soldiers against cs leadership

Next move the coalition makes , depending on who is the target, the coalition states will not have a easy time like they did in tolkeen.

Tolkeen is still a war zone, and everybody is up there

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Woah. MV sees the light.

no that was just in aftermath see kids it's worth getting all the books

[cornholioprime]

Woah. MV sees the light.



The CS won the war against Tolkeen fair up. Yes, Holmes' stunt was pure writers fiat, but did anybody with even the most basic grasp of military tactics think that Tolkeen wouldn't be defeated? They made it hard, yes. They made the CS pay dearly for it's victory, and in the end they accomplished part of thier goal anyway. IF one looks at it in the long run, the CS shot itself in the foot, and the war against Tolkeen was the death knell for CS domination of North America.

Why?

One, the death camps for Tolkeen citizens and soldiers, and the flagrant attacks on refugee collumns attempting to escape has put the CS even higher on most peoples s*it list. The FoM already hated the CS, and now they're getting an influx of blodded soldiers and war-tested magitech into their forces. The FoM was alreadyh formiddable, now it's outright scary.

With the death of Tolkeen, the CS tipped it's hand. People everywhere now know what the CS does to it's foes, and the next war they launch will cause a cascade effect that will bring many of their enemies together against them.

Heres how I see it. While many were murdured in thier homes and thousands more were butchered as they tried to run, many people from Tolkeen (who at the time were unarmed noncombatants in the first place) have fled outward. The Colorado Baronies will be seeing a massive surge in population, as Lazlo already has. For both regions, there is no longer any reason not to arm up, and every reason they should. Nobody knows who the CS will line up on next. Most likely Lazlo, but they'll fall back and fade into the wilderness.

The Baronies have some interesting potential. They're far enough away from the CS and it's Whermacht to be relatively safe. They're population was already growing, and now it's going to skyrocket. They're rich, developed and have may allies and abilities. By the time the CS can project a force that far and support it, the Barinies will be a regional superpower, just like the CS. Not as big, but nasty. And with they're allies (Ie: Cyber-Knights, Arnzo, Tundra Rangers, nearly every Merc company in NA -Larsens Brigade in particular) not to mention the people of Lazlo. They probably won't be able to meet the nazis man-to-man in firepower, but they'll make up for it in other areas (magic primarily).

It's won't soon, and it'll be so bloody that Tolkeen will seem like a border skirmish, but the CS's days are numbered now. The only ally that they can turn to is Free Qubec, and they may just let the CS rot.

Personally, I look foreward to the CS having a string of defeats to kick it in the gut after their "glorious victory" over a smaller foe.

Gotta disagree with you here, Lord Coake.

Even WITHOUT Writer's Fiat, the Coalition is simply far too big to be taken down by anyone short of the NGR, Atlantis, or the combined might of the Vampire Kingdoms.

[Warmaster40k]

I had just finished reading Sourcebook four and at first i dissapointed that the CS killed off Iron Heart Amrments as they made some of my more favorite gadgets. but because of thier greed they missed a large group of the company and now IHA has gone international wiht bases and factories in Newfoundland, Africa Mexico, and Azores

[Dustin Fireblade]

I had just finished reading Sourcebook four and at first i dissapointed that the CS killed off Iron Heart Amrments as they made some of my more favorite gadgets. but because of thier greed they missed a large group of the company and now IHA has gone international wiht bases and factories in Newfoundland, Africa Mexico, and Azores

You might want to double check that. Its just a fairly small group that has hide-outs from the CS at those locations. They don't have any type of factories.

[Jefffar]

I think that it is suppsoed to be up to the players to redress the balance against the CS.


The powers of Rifts North America would be able to take down the CS if they all unified, but short of near total co-operation amoung them, the CS could not be laid low.

Total co-operation between the remenents of Tolkeen, the Cyberknights, the JLA, Larsen, Braddock, Lazlo, Free Quebec, Ispheming, Manistique, the Black Market, the Federation of Magic, the Pecos Empire and Archie 3 is a pipe dream at best.

Besides, do you really want to be in a North America without the CS to act as a bullwark agaisnt the Vamps and the Xiticix?

[RainOfSteel]

did anybody with even the most basic grasp of military tactics think that Tolkeen wouldn't be defeated?

Why, yes. I do have a grasp of basic military strategy and tactics.

Given what the Chi-Town could have actually had, and what it could have actually deployed into the field (because of all the borders it still had to defend) . . .

And given what Tolkeen could have had . . .

Oh, wait, here, I'll just go into the details:

---------------------------------------------------------

Chi-Town's effective population is only 2.5 times that of Tolkeen.

They have a far greater territory and frontier that must be defended than Tolkeen does. Chi-Town cannot take its entire army to war. Let's repeat that, Chi-Town cannot take its entire army to war. Really, it can't.

With only 5 million effectives to draw upon, there is no way this side of little green potatoes that Chi-Town can mount a field army of 1,000,000. Forget it. It ain't goanna happen outside of dreamy la la land.

If Chi-Town arms 2.5% of its population, that's 125,000 troops. And you can probably tack on 20-50ka dogboys. This is adogboysthat the Chi-Town can actually afford to arm and equip. Were talking maybe 2,000 SAMAS, 2,000 other mecha, and maybe a dozen Death's Heads all told. This is still pushing the limits by a lot.
Now, you cannot possibly hope to take all of them to Tolkeen, maybe 20,000 troops or so as a field army, with maybe 10ka dogboys (all the rdogboysld be required to defend an enormous frontier against other enemies). Add 10ka or so mercenaries hired on whatever sort of financial skullduggery (like "war bonds"; that CS citizens couldn't possibly afford anyway, so that's more dreaminess) you want to stipulate to, and maybe a 2-5ka Iron Heart expeditionary force and a 5-10ka expeditionary force from FQ (only if FQ doesn't withdraw from the CS)(where 5ka and 10ka are the exceptionally high maximum figures in both cases). Oh, and toss in maybe 10-20ka skelebots (although the expense of even that many is a big stretch of the imagination).

Tolkeen's poTolkeen'sis 2,000,000, and they are fighting for their very survival. I think with their spells of legend and their smaller army*, they can blunt a force of 47-55ka, yes I do.

* Tolkeen's aTolkeen's be about 1.5% (smaller budget for the army) of the population. Or about 30,000 grand total. Add in about 5ka from mercenaries (Tolkeen damages itself economically to hire them), about 2-5ka volunteers from within the population, about 1-2ka volunteers from outside the population who hate Chi-Town, 2ka from NG, 2ka from MI, And another 300 from Lazlo (very high quality) and 700 from New Lazlo. No demons or monsters of any type would be recruited by any means. That is 43-47ka total troops. Most of which, 35ka or more, would be placed directly on the southern frontier. Oh, and the ancient, adult, and hatchling dragons of Freehold, let's not forget about them, the Dragon Kings. They plus the spells of legend, and the fact that it is easier to defend than attack (TolkTolkeen'sces will most often be under cover), and I think it would be a grinding war of losses for Chi-Town's forces.

Chi-Town loses 5ka when Jericho Holmes idiotically leads his forces into a meat grinder inside the Xiticix Hivelands (not the 400,000 listed in the back of SoT 3), thus doing away with one of military history's greatest morons.

About 1/2 way through the war, Chi-Town scrapes the bottom of the barrel of their manpower and forces posted in other locations, and adds another 20ka to the front lines. They push ToTolkeen'sorces back to the city itself (behind its impregnable force fields), where the Circle of Twelve unleash massive waves of their spells of legend stored up on scrolls (as is noted), aided by the Rings of Elder and having three nexi each member can draw upon. And this would be pre-RUE, where decent amounts of PPE could be had and spells would be mamagnified Spells of Legend on steroids, yes sir!

There was no Sorcerer's Revenge (just a long grinding battle).

There was no collective act of stupidity on the part of ToTolkeen'srmy to just give up and go home.

There is no surprise swooping of Holme's forces into Tolkeen from behind, Holmes and his forces were turned into sludge for the Duluth hive's accelerated population production plans. In any event, Tolkeen never did stop patrolling the areas north of it.

The Dragon Kings did not turn coward and run away. They had succeeded brilliantly before in combat, and flush with confidence in that success, did so again several times. They would sortie out, do tremendous damage, return for magical healing and reinvigoration, and would return to the battlefield undamaged once more . . . over and over (this had quite a demoralizing effect on the CS forces).

Chi-Town's forces lay siege to Tolkeen city for a week (or two), but are unable to gain entry. Battered and effectively out of supply due to massive hit and run tactics against their supply lines, Chi-Town's army is forced to retreat.

The war is over. Chi-Town has lost 30-40ka troops, but no civilian infrastructure (ok, maybe some is lost to covert strikes by Tolkeen, but nothing serious). Tolkeen loses 20ka troops, many are irreplaceable magi; and their entire southern territory is a wasteland of destruction.

---------------------------------------------------------

Tolkeen survives, but if it is a victory, it is a pyrrhic one.

Their economy is a shattered ruin, the winter is coming on, food is scarce, and there aren't many intact farms.

---------------------------------------------------------

The CS army retreats. The retreat becomes a general recall when opportunistic raiding by bandits on all their stripped-down borders increases to intolerable levels. The remnants of the field army are distributed to garrison posts throughout the CS to strengthen the borders.

---------------------------------------------------------

All these numbers are on the high sides and push toward too large given the actual economic capabilities available.

---------------------------------------------------------

(I believe the population figures used are the unadjusted PA100 figures, and are not compensated by the intervening few years of population growth, as I have done in other discussions of this subject.)

[tenakafurey]

Chi-Town's effective population is only 2.5 times that of Tolkeen.

But what about the rest of the Coalition States? And what about the millions who formed the bulk of the armies…that is, those who actually aren’t CS citizens? And what about Psi Stalkers? etc

An army of 1-2 million may be unrealistic for the CS, but you seem to be discounting an awful lot of people who would form the bulk of the CS army. At Tolkeen, for example, there were 200,000 Dog Boys, 100,000 Psi-Stalkers, 500,000 from the Burbs and 400,000 from the CS.

With only 5 million effectives to draw upon, there is no way this side of little green potatoes that Chi-Town can mount a field army of 1,000,000. Forget it. It ain't goanna happen outside of dreamy la la land.

But the CS is more than just Chi-Town. What is the population of the CS? Not just Chi-Town…but he entire CS? We know of 5-7 million in Chi Town alone….but what about everybody else?

EJL

[grandmaster z0b]

There's an almost identical discussion going on here so I'll essentially repost the same point:

The USA has total of 2,906,453 possible active troops from a country with a population of 298,217,215, that's only 1% of the population and that's in a far more efficient global economy than Rifts earth.

I find it hard to believe that the population or the economy of the CS could handle a million man army. The main problem is the CS supplying and supporting those numbers rather than actually aquiring that many men. The CS economy would have to be very healthy to provide enough resources for them all and continue production of military equipment as well as mainting it's own needs, especially considering how technically advanced their war machines are.

I suppose when you look to deeply at Rifts economics you get these sorts of problems. IMO you can either attribute it to advanced technology (automated factories, nano tech etc.) which can produce incredibly complex units relatively cheaply out of limited resources, or you can adjust the listed numbers around a bit. In that case you need to either up the population and resources of the CS or lower the numbers of troops. Not just of the CS but Tolkeen and most other North American countries.

I prefer the idea of smaller armies to give it more of a post-apocolyptic feel but I incorporate some of the super-tech ideas to account for the amazing technology the CS and other tech nations produce.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

you guys just dont get why the reasons the CS Military is larger then the US Military

[Mech-Viper Prime]

that and the need for jobs like sale clerk in a comic book store, warehouse worker in a music /video warehouse , or freelance programmer for a computer company or freelance writier or newpaper reporter or sale person for a wireless telephone service

[Subjugator]

Yes, but thats just Chi Town's population. The CS also has Lone Star, Missouri, and hundreds of smaller communities. At the time of Tolkeen, they also had Iron Heart.

I'm not saying that their numbers as printed wern't completely asinine (they were) but the CS was still a technological powerhouse, and every one of thier soldiers was well trained, and lavisly equipped.

The war would have bled them dry, but ultimately, Tolkeen was doomed.

And actually, I agree with you totally on the numbers issue. Given the the number of support troops needed for an army (roughly a ratio of 4:1 in modern times) the CS would havd to mobilize nearly it's entire population to field a one-million man army.

You're forgetting one thing - the army includes people that are not citizens. They've got TONS of people from the burbs in the military.

[Toc Rat]

Is it me, or is it that nothing ever happens to the CS no matter what atrocities they commit, Lets look at the Tolkeen war Prosek promised a large force of soldiers Citizenship for them and their family but he weltched on his oath. So what do Gen Holmes and his forces do, what about all the countries in north america do. I mean how come the coalition can get away with all their actions but the moment some one does something a .1 as bad all hell falls on their head. So in the end is there no justice in the World of Rifts.

Here let me read you a passge from The Kevinomicon, Book of Siembieda 3:16.

16 Blessed art Thou above all others, O COALITION STATES, beloved of Kevin;

17 For Thou art allowed to do Evil without Limit, nor do thy Enemies retaliate.

18 Thy Military be run by Fools and Dotards.

19 Yet thy Nation suffers not. Praise be unto Him that protects thee from all harm!!

See my brother? You are not alone, other share your pain

[Phadeout]

I have to agree that there is a lot more to it than just Chi-Town. There is sooo much, and any holes can be patched by a good GM since the states is a rather large place outside of Chi-town, with most of it not detailed at all. Plus the economy cannot in anyway be compared to today's economy - the majority of people on Rifts earch are fighting for their lives, not living a normal life. And if the numbers are still not good enough after that, then just change the way Free Quebec reacted, and instead of having them go home - do like I did: and have a nice chunk of Free Quebec help out the CS in the war.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Is it me, or is it that nothing ever happens to the CS no matter what atrocities they commit, Lets look at the Tolkeen war Prosek promised a large force of soldiers Citizenship for them and their family but he weltched on his oath. So what do Gen Holmes and his forces do, what about all the countries in north america do. I mean how come the coalition can get away with all their actions but the moment some one does something a .1 as bad all hell falls on their head. So in the end is there no justice in the World of Rifts.

Here let me read you a passge from The Kevinomicon, Book of Siembieda 3:16.

16 Blessed art Thou above all others, O COALITION STATES, beloved of Kevin;

17 For Thou art allowed to do Evil without Limit, nor do thy Enemies retaliate.

18 Thy Military be run by Fools and Dotards.

19 Yet thy Nation suffers not. Praise be unto Him that protects thee from all harm!!

See my brother? You are not alone, other share your pain

and for 4.99$, you can subscribe to the Church of Fools newsletter, and get a neat button

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Hmm.. Wouldn't an alliance between all the races on Atlantis and the vampire legions be sufficient to crush the CS? they can literally assault the CS day and night with little loss in waves of assault, constantly bombarding and tearing through the Cs ranks.

yup i'll some warm and wonderful person will step up to lead North Amerioa into the future maybe Dunscon, he seems to be a warm and loving type of guy, real salt of the earth type of guy, that every would just love

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Yeah! He's as loveable as a cactus!

I was thinking more along the line of Plato......

sorry I dont follow peace-preaching dragon anymore then i would follow his number one puppet Tarn how many dragons believe humans are equal to them, in every word because in freehold the dragons seemed to top the food chain there. then we have atlantis, where humans are part of the ruling elite, no wait food or slaves. yes the non-human race live in peace with NGR, i see Brodkil and garg helping to make europe a better place, then the phoenix empire aniother the perfect place to be a humans, Funny how the monsters cry about all being equals when the humans level the playfield more the tables against them

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hmm.. Wouldn't an alliance between all the races on Atlantis and the vampire legions be sufficient to crush the CS? they can literally assault the CS day and night with little loss in waves of assault, constantly bombarding and tearing through the Cs ranks.

well, three points:

1. it's pretty clear there can never be an alliance between Atlantis ans the CS. the splurgorth hate and fear the vampires far more than the CS.

2. why would atlantis care about what the CS does in NC in the first place?

3. it says plainly in atlantis that antlantis could OBLITERATE the CS with their own recourses with no alliance and without straining their resouces. they just don't want to.

in fact, it says that atlantis COULD destroy every nation on Rifts earth if it wanted, stated fact. it's just that it's not worth the resources to them to do so.

[Phadeout]

Atlantis likes N.A. the way it is and why not: Lots of slaves pend in by coastal waters, and a fun play ground (training ground) across the pond...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Yes, but thats just Chi Town's population. The CS also has Lone Star, Missouri, and hundreds of smaller communities. At the time of Tolkeen, they also had Iron Heart.

I'm not saying that their numbers as printed wern't completely asinine (they were) but the CS was still a technological powerhouse, and every one of thier soldiers was well trained, and lavisly equipped.

The war would have bled them dry, but ultimately, Tolkeen was doomed.

And actually, I agree with you totally on the numbers issue. Given the the number of support troops needed for an army (roughly a ratio of 4:1 in modern times) the CS would havd to mobilize nearly it's entire population to field a one-million man army.

You're forgetting one thing - the army includes people that are not citizens. They've got TONS of people from the burbs in the military.

Keep in mind also the Humans that have had to fight for scraps of food against all manner of Horros the imagination could conjur, on and on for weeks and weeks, even living in the Burbs. Desperately trying to not be food YOURSELF. Even if you can scrape something up, all you've got to look forward to in life is doing it over and over and over again until you die, probably horribly.

Then toss in the CS Military pamphlet and the promise of just eating well and sleeping in a warm place at night close to people you can trust to boot.
I can certainly understand why the CS has a large military.

now add in a chance to move to the older burbs, where it's more safer for the soldier's family, and maybe better jobs in older burbs for the soldier's love ones

[Toc Rat]

Is it me, or is it that nothing ever happens to the CS no matter what atrocities they commit, Lets look at the Tolkeen war Prosek promised a large force of soldiers Citizenship for them and their family but he weltched on his oath. So what do Gen Holmes and his forces do, what about all the countries in north america do. I mean how come the coalition can get away with all their actions but the moment some one does something a .1 as bad all hell falls on their head. So in the end is there no justice in the World of Rifts.

Here let me read you a passge from The Kevinomicon, Book of Siembieda 3:16.

16 Blessed art Thou above all others, O COALITION STATES, beloved of Kevin;

17 For Thou art allowed to do Evil without Limit, nor do thy Enemies retaliate.

18 Thy Military be run by Fools and Dotards.

19 Yet thy Nation suffers not. Praise be unto Him that protects thee from all harm!!

See my brother? You are not alone, other share your pain

and for 4.99$, you can subscribe to the Church of Fools newsletter, and get a neat button

You know this from being a member no doubt

[grandmaster z0b]

There's an almost identical discussion going on here so I'll essentially repost the same point:

The USA has total of 2,906,453 possible active troops from a country with a population of 298,217,215, that's only 1% of the population and that's in a far more efficient global economy than Rifts earth.

quote]

You are trying to apply the priciples that set the size of a democratic free market econamy to a nation taht is a socialistic dictatorship. Guess what the german army of WWII couldn't have been as large as it was if you applied modern US restraints...its amazing what you can do with a dictatorship and central controll of all of the resources.

Without a global economy and trade you cannot maintain an army of that size regardless of what kind of government you have.

I'm not just talking numbers of troops I'm also talking about all the vehicles, guns, ammo, armour etc. you need for all those troops. Even in WWII countries could still trade with other countries for resources, albiet not as efficiently as before the war, but a hell of a lot more than the CS could.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Is it me, or is it that nothing ever happens to the CS no matter what atrocities they commit, Lets look at the Tolkeen war Prosek promised a large force of soldiers Citizenship for them and their family but he weltched on his oath. So what do Gen Holmes and his forces do, what about all the countries in north america do. I mean how come the coalition can get away with all their actions but the moment some one does something a .1 as bad all hell falls on their head. So in the end is there no justice in the World of Rifts.

Here let me read you a passge from The Kevinomicon, Book of Siembieda 3:16.

16 Blessed art Thou above all others, O COALITION STATES, beloved of Kevin;

17 For Thou art allowed to do Evil without Limit, nor do thy Enemies retaliate.

18 Thy Military be run by Fools and Dotards.

19 Yet thy Nation suffers not. Praise be unto Him that protects thee from all harm!!

See my brother? You are not alone, other share your pain

and for 4.99$, you can subscribe to the Church of Fools newsletter, and get a neat button

You know this from being a member no doubt

i'm not quoting corny like you are, so how is that membership to the CoF

[Mech-Viper Prime]

There's an almost identical discussion going on here so I'll essentially repost the same point:

The USA has total of 2,906,453 possible active troops from a country with a population of 298,217,215, that's only 1% of the population and that's in a far more efficient global economy than Rifts earth.

You are trying to apply the priciples that set the size of a democratic free market econamy to a nation taht is a socialistic dictatorship. Guess what the german army of WWII couldn't have been as large as it was if you applied modern US restraints...its amazing what you can do with a dictatorship and central controll of all of the resources.

Without a global economy and trade you cannot maintain an army of that size regardless of what kind of government you have.

I'm not just talking numbers of troops I'm also talking about all the vehicles, guns, ammo, armour etc. you need for all those troops. Even in WWII countries could still trade with other countries for resources, albiet not as efficiently as before the war, but a hell of a lot more than the CS could.

There is recycle option

[Wise_Owl]

There's an almost identical discussion going on here so I'll essentially repost the same point:

The USA has total of 2,906,453 possible active troops from a country with a population of 298,217,215, that's only 1% of the population and that's in a far more efficient global economy than Rifts earth.

You are trying to apply the priciples that set the size of a democratic free market econamy to a nation taht is a socialistic dictatorship. Guess what the german army of WWII couldn't have been as large as it was if you applied modern US restraints...its amazing what you can do with a dictatorship and central controll of all of the resources.

Without a global economy and trade you cannot maintain an army of that size regardless of what kind of government you have.

I'm not just talking numbers of troops I'm also talking about all the vehicles, guns, ammo, armour etc. you need for all those troops. Even in WWII countries could still trade with other countries for resources, albiet not as efficiently as before the war, but a hell of a lot more than the CS could.

There is recycle option

Not really. The Problem is one of scale and basic economics. The US present technological capability is presaged on international trade. The ability to get oil and petrolium, rubber, uranium, and a whole host of other products from around the world, as well as technical developement promoting economic growth. The CS is basically a limited Fascist economy, with limited trade potential, and very limited natural resources. More or less, even granting a far advanced level of technological sophistication and hand-waving a variety of things, your still left with a state that should be poorer than sub-saharan africa, a spiralling population density, and production problems of all kinds. It was one of my principal problems with the CWC, there is no way, even NOW, to produce the military they are supposed to have produced in secret. That's simply not how high technology, espeically miliatry technology works. The CS is a cartoonish villain. After Tolkeen they should be awash in refugee's, have an economic system tumbling to the ground from years of military expenditures and no corresponding increase in 'capital', and a military that is increasingly fractured and rebellious. I mean you ever even think about what it takes to Feed, house and transport a Million Man Army, let alone field one of the technological sophisticated the US is supposed to do. Google the Long March for an example of what moving that kind of troops across terrain looks like, starvation is only the beginning of your worries.

[Toc Rat]

i'm not quoting corny like you are, so how is that membership to the CoF

Ah but you did mention this CoF first. I did not as I knew nothing of any such church. You also went further to mention membership price, thus showing an increased knowledge of them beyond their existence. So it is far more likely that you are a member then I or anyone else on the boards.

For the record though, in case you missed it, my using of Corny's quote was for humor factor. As I am sure we are all well aware, topics involving the CS, Tolkein, numbers and reality can get rather heated. So I felt a little humor was called for.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i'm not quoting corny like you are, so how is that membership to the CoF

Ah but you did mention this CoF first. I did not as I knew nothing of any such church. You also went further to mention membership price, thus showing an increased knowledge of them beyond their existence. So it is far more likely that you are a member then I or anyone else on the boards.

For the record though, in case you missed it, my using of Corny's quote was for humor factor. As I am sure we are all well aware, topics involving the CS, Tolkein, numbers and reality can get rather heated. So I felt a little humor was called for.

i guess you missed the

part so sad

[Mech-Viper Prime]

There's an almost identical discussion going on here so I'll essentially repost the same point:

The USA has total of 2,906,453 possible active troops from a country with a population of 298,217,215, that's only 1% of the population and that's in a far more efficient global economy than Rifts earth.

You are trying to apply the priciples that set the size of a democratic free market econamy to a nation taht is a socialistic dictatorship. Guess what the german army of WWII couldn't have been as large as it was if you applied modern US restraints...its amazing what you can do with a dictatorship and central controll of all of the resources.

Without a global economy and trade you cannot maintain an army of that size regardless of what kind of government you have.

I'm not just talking numbers of troops I'm also talking about all the vehicles, guns, ammo, armour etc. you need for all those troops. Even in WWII countries could still trade with other countries for resources, albiet not as efficiently as before the war, but a hell of a lot more than the CS could.

There is recycle option

Not really. The Problem is one of scale and basic economics. The US present technological capability is presaged on international trade. The ability to get oil and petrolium, rubber, uranium, and a whole host of other products from around the world, as well as technical developement promoting economic growth. The CS is basically a limited Fascist economy, with limited trade potential, and very limited natural resources. More or less, even granting a far advanced level of technological sophistication and hand-waving a variety of things, your still left with a state that should be poorer than sub-saharan africa, a spiralling population density, and production problems of all kinds. It was one of my principal problems with the CWC, there is no way, even NOW, to produce the military they are supposed to have produced in secret. That's simply not how high technology, espeically miliatry technology works. The CS is a cartoonish villain. After Tolkeen they should be awash in refugee's, have an economic system tumbling to the ground from years of military expenditures and no corresponding increase in 'capital', and a military that is increasingly fractured and rebellious. I mean you ever even think about what it takes to Feed, house and transport a Million Man Army, let alone field one of the technological sophisticated the US is supposed to do. Google the Long March for an example of what moving that kind of troops across terrain looks like, starvation is only the beginning of your worries.

to be honestly if you look from the mineral location in north america click

So depending how refined the coalition mining operations are and if they are doing long range mining operations.

[Toc Rat]

i guess you missed the

part so sad [/quote]

Sad?

Hmm, I think it best to let go. I'll inject humor in other threads...

[Jack Daniels]

to be honestly if you look from the mineral location in north america click

So depending how refined the coalition mining operations are and if they are doing long range mining operations.

So if you look at the map, you might notice that St. Louis and Itasca counties are in northern Minnesota, right near to where Duluth used to be. Hmmm, seems like I remember something about Duluth. Bug country. Mining operations would have to be mighty refined indeed to make use of the Mesabi Iron Range.
In any case, iron ore is among the least important strategic resources that the CS would need to build its army so that doesn'r really make any difference.
I am quite curious as to what mineral resources do exist in CS claimed territory. I mean recycled cities can only build so many SAMAS and DHT. Eventually they'll need to find another source.

[tenakafurey]

Not really. The Problem is one of scale and basic economics. The US present technological capability is presaged on international trade. The ability to get oil and petrolium, rubber, uranium, and a whole host of other products from around the world, as well as technical developement promoting economic growth.

And we know very little about CS manufacturing technologies. How automated are the factories? What effect does nanotechnology have on production processes, recycling and resource management? What are their mines and farms like? And so on.

Feeding troops is a matter of growing enough food, and transporting it. Can the farms of the CS grow that amount of food? Probably. The CS can probably grow more than enough using 20th century tech. Can they transport it? Depends.

And there are technologies such as hydroponics which may be of use. Indeed, it may be that the human element is very much reduced and that it may cost the CS cents/pennies to grow acres of food...at least once he equipments is bought.

Is this likely? Is it possible?

Other resources are a different problem of course. But, right now, we have progress being made in the artificial creation of crude oil, and many materials have substitutes. And again, very little information on CS mining technologies and techniques.

But, if the CS mines, factories and farms are very automated, then while startup costs will be high, running costs will be very low and allow quick, cheap and plentiful manufacture of CS gear.

And if they're very automated, then the CS need for people, or the economic impact of a massive military build up, would be quite low.

I mean you ever even think about what it takes to Feed, house and transport a Million Man Army, let alone field one of the technological sophisticated the US is supposed to do.

I dunno. How much does it cost to give each man an energy weapon that's produced in an automated, self contained factory - of the type that also produces body armour? Remember, Rifts has MD plastics....the raw materials of which can be found in the very air. Process air, make oil, make plastics, make MD armour and casings, etc.

EJL

[grandmaster z0b]

There's an almost identical discussion going on here so I'll essentially repost the same point:

The USA has total of 2,906,453 possible active troops from a country with a population of 298,217,215, that's only 1% of the population and that's in a far more efficient global economy than Rifts earth.

quote]

You are trying to apply the priciples that set the size of a democratic free market econamy to a nation taht is a socialistic dictatorship. Guess what the german army of WWII couldn't have been as large as it was if you applied modern US restraints...its amazing what you can do with a dictatorship and central controll of all of the resources.

Without a global economy and trade you cannot maintain an army of that size regardless of what kind of government you have.

I'm not just talking numbers of troops I'm also talking about all the vehicles, guns, ammo, armour etc. you need for all those troops. Even in WWII countries could still trade with other countries for resources, albiet not as efficiently as before the war, but a hell of a lot more than the CS could.

The CS was trading with NG and the NGR. The two other major tech countries that they know about. Beyond that they would be very resource light (nuke plants instead of oil in all of their vehicles). You are using free market arguments on a group that is most defiantly not a free market. You have low to no labor costs (bots do most of the work and work 24/7) for manufacturing. I have to imagine the nanotech that allows for things like the IRMSS kits also allows for easy and cheap fabrication of materials so you have a low raw materials cost. Your power is most likely fusion (cold fusion) so fuel costs are nonexistent (you got a big lake and hell the stuff falls from the sky). Really the only place you *NEED* to employ people is on R&D. any other no automated job is that way to keep unemployment down in the big cities. You combine automated factories, cheap resources, large idle population and most likely mandatory conscription for all citizens (see Israel or Switzerland for examples). Add to that a large number of non-citizen recruits desperate to get on the fast track to citizenship via the military and well you have a large military.

Trading with two nations is massively different to global trade.
Now your hypothesising about possible technology that would make it more believable - that is exactly what I do with my Rifts games, but you cannot use it as a argument about canon as none of these technologies has been quoted in the books and it would raise a whole lot of dilemas themselves. If they have sauch advanced nano-tech what can they build and what can't they?
I think Wise Owl's comments sum up most of my points better than I could for the moment.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i guess you missed the

part so sad

Sad?

Hmm, I think it best to let go. I'll inject humor in other threads...[/quote]yup humorless i see

[Mech-Viper Prime]

to be honestly if you look from the mineral location in north america click

So depending how refined the coalition mining operations are and if they are doing long range mining operations.

So if you look at the map, you might notice that St. Louis and Itasca counties are in northern Minnesota, right near to where Duluth used to be. Hmmm, seems like I remember something about Duluth. Bug country. Mining operations would have to be mighty refined indeed to make use of the Mesabi Iron Range.
In any case, iron ore is among the least important strategic resources that the CS would need to build its army so that doesn'r really make any difference.
I am quite curious as to what mineral resources do exist in CS claimed territory. I mean recycled cities can only build so many SAMAS and DHT. Eventually they'll need to find another source.

depends on materials, power armor is made of???????????? where does free quebec get thier , how about NGR , or NG and MI , or any other tech nation get the materials, to be honest only archie has the best set up

[Wise_Owl]

Not really. The Problem is one of scale and basic economics. The US present technological capability is presaged on international trade. The ability to get oil and petrolium, rubber, uranium, and a whole host of other products from around the world, as well as technical developement promoting economic growth.

And we know very little about CS manufacturing technologies. How automated are the factories? What effect does nanotechnology have on production processes, recycling and resource management? What are their mines and farms like? And so on.

This doesn't answer the question. High automation reduces only the labour costs for production, but in fact this is a bigger problem than before. How do you employ all the people who are now not working in your factories. Given the fact that the coalition prevents 95% of it's population from becomming technically inclined, literate, etc. it's highly unlikely this level of automation would eixst, or 95% of their population, now unemployed, would be demanding bread and circus's.
Secondly for the record, there is no evidence the CS possesses any nanotechnology. Micro-technology definetly, but Nanotechnology is quite a different beast(the terms are often confused in rifts. the IRMSS for example, is Micro-Technology, not Nanotechnology).

Feeding troops is a matter of growing enough food, and transporting it. Can the farms of the CS grow that amount of food? Probably. The CS can probably grow more than enough using 20th century tech. Can they transport it? Depends.

But they can't use 20th century tech for food production, because they can't access oil. Our Mass agircultural is entirely dependent on cheap sources of hydrocarbons, and no just for 'fuel', but for fertilizers as well. Given that we also know a broad section of vehicles still rely upon gasoline in Rifts, we can also surmise that it would not be cost effective to power every combine and tractor using nuclear engines.

And there are technologies such as hydroponics which may be of use. Indeed, it may be that the human element is very much reduced and that it may cost the CS cents/pennies to grow acres of food...at least once he equipments is bought.

Agreed, if you hand wave both technological limitations and the realities in what it takes to feed a population of millions. I mean the CS could have Yogurt as it's principal food-stuff supply, grown in huge vats for mass consumption.

Other resources are a different problem of course. But, right now, we have progress being made in the artificial creation of crude oil, and many materials have substitutes. And again, very little information on CS mining technologies and techniques.

But, if the CS mines, factories and farms are very automated, then while startup costs will be high, running costs will be very low and allow quick, cheap and plentiful manufacture of CS gear.

Which will cause there economy to implode since they have nothing to trade with to gain more resources. They are a static economy, without any avenues for expansion. Keep in mind I'm not saying the Coalition CAN'T operate as it can(well except for the secret Million Bot Army thing, which is just silly), just that there economy would be in shambles and not especially stable. Either they are utilizing a high level of automation and under-employing the majority fo their population, in which case massive civil unrest woudl be the result, or they(more likely, given there fascist overtone) are utilizing a Full Employement system for construction purposes. Simply put there access to resources is very limited, increased production techniques do not solve that problem.
There can be no reliable method to artificially produce crude oil, thanks to the Laws of Thermodynamics. Any such process would cost most energy than it would produce. Oil is such a beneficial energy source because it has 'stored' the suns energy in a very convient form over millions of years.

I mean you ever even think about what it takes to Feed, house and transport a Million Man Army, let alone field one of the technological sophisticated the US is supposed to do.

I dunno. How much does it cost to give each man an energy weapon that's produced in an automated, self contained factory - of the type that also produces body armour? Remember, Rifts has MD plastics....the raw materials of which can be found in the very air. Process air, make oil, make plastics, make MD armour and casings, etc.

EJL

However that requires ALOT of handwaving and brings other questions to the forefront(given this level of technological sophistication why would say Free Quebec ever joint the CS in the first place), where is all the energy coming from to do these massively energy intensive processes, where does the metal come from? THe Iron, the Silicates, and more importantly for high-technology, the super-conductors, the Gold, etc.

[grandmaster z0b]

Ballad I'm not "obsessed with trade" and I don't think it's fair to accuse WiseOwl of "fixate on forcing the coalition to work inside of today’s technology and socioeconomic frameworks". We have opinions and we don't agree with you but that doesn't mean we're "fixating" or "obsessed", we just don't agree.

One big problem with your idea is that the CS use cheap fusion technology. It's clear from the books that nuclear power is expensive, it's much cheaper to build an electric or gas engine by the price of units.

Also no matter how much trade the CS has in the time of Rifts it will never compare to what we have now or what we had 300 years ago. It's limited and expensive due to the many dangers of travelling through the world of Rifts, the NGR is the exception but it won't compensate. I'm not saying it's impossible for the CS to be self sufficient - but it wouldn't be as cheap or as economical as it is now in a global market where a nation can import cheap parts from China or India to decrease the cost of manufacturing and coutries with lots of resources can export commodities cheaply to manufacturing countries.

Although you are correct about automated factories, they are also listed in Lone Star as well as GM crops.

[Blight]

Ok this may have been already address and when i get time I'll go back and check. But I see alot of people bringing up resources for creating the CS's war machines. Why dose everyone think these things are metal most MDC materials would carbon composites and ceramics. Are people thinking the CS is gonna run out of Mud? Fiber optic relays are glass. For that matter how do we know that most of what we would call electronics are not grown Bio-computers and neural-net? They have that technology. They would be more efficient.

[tenakafurey]

This doesn't answer the question. High automation reduces only the labour costs for production, but in fact this is a bigger problem than before. How do you employ all the people who are now not working in your factories.

You make them soldiers.....?

Given the fact that the coalition prevents 95% of it's population from becomming technically inclined, literate, etc. it's highly unlikely this level of automation would eixst, or 95% of their population, now unemployed, would be demanding bread and circus's.

Well, if a factory requires one or two people to run, they don't need that many literate people.

Nor need all the factories be so automated. The possibility that the CS possesses some of the automated factories mentioned elsewhere is one that cannot be discounted, but it seems to answer many questions.

Secondly for the record, there is no evidence the CS possesses any nanotechnology. Micro-technology definetly, but Nanotechnology is quite a different beast(the terms are often confused in rifts. the IRMSS for example, is Micro-Technology, not Nanotechnology).

Any evidence it doesn't? Or that that was one technology it hasn't recovered from the Golden Age? Or even that the IRMSS isn't nanotech?

But they can't use 20th century tech for food production, because they can't access oil. Our Mass agircultural is entirely dependent on cheap sources of hydrocarbons, and no just for 'fuel', but for fertilizers as well. Given that we also know a broad section of vehicles still rely upon gasoline in Rifts, we can also surmise that it would not be cost effective to power every combine and tractor using nuclear engines.

Of course not....but oil can be created synthetically. But some processes aren't energy effective while others aren't on a large enough scale.

But...carbon, oxygen, nitrogen and hydrogen can be extracted from air. Rifts uses fusion technology. So....a ready source of raw materials and cheap, plentiful energy means lots of oil.

Which will cause there economy to implode since they have nothing to trade with to gain more resources.

Depends on what resources they need.

Either they are utilizing a high level of automation and under-employing the majority fo their population, in which case massive civil unrest woudl be the result, or they(more likely, given there fascist overtone) are utilizing a Full Employement system for construction purposes.

A mix isn't possible? Some highly automated factories, with others more labour intensive? As it is, people ask how the CS can equip and suppply a million combat and support troops.

Automated factories is an obvious answer.

Simply put there access to resources is very limited, increased production techniques do not solve that problem.

And their population is relatively small and they claim a lot of area.

There can be no reliable method to artificially produce crude oil, thanks to the Laws of Thermodynamics. Any such process would cost most energy than it would produce. Oil is such a beneficial energy source because it has 'stored' the suns energy in a very convient form over millions of years.

Actually...some processes are being used today. And yes, the energy factor is one issue keepign some of them back. As it is, RIFTS has fusion and nuclear energy. Which removes the energy cost almost entirely. And it really doesn't matter how energy efficient the process is if all you really want to use it as anything but a fuel. Energy thus becomes just one cost in the process....just as it is in the production of aluminium, iron, etc.

However that requires ALOT of handwaving and brings other questions to the forefront(given this level of technological sophistication why would say Free Quebec ever joint the CS in the first place), where is all the energy coming from to do these massively energy intensive processes, where does the metal come from? THe Iron, the Silicates, and more importantly for high-technology, the super-conductors, the Gold, etc.

The CS has nuclear reactors small enough to fit into a small suit of power armour or robots. Power isn't a problem. Other resources and metals? That would depend on their mining and reclamation efforts. Certainly, the CS claims a large chunk of the US within which they can mine or salvage material.


Besides...how much do skelebots mass? 200 kg. 1,000,000 of them? 200,000 tonnes. The Empire State Building alone masses 300,000 tonnes and contains 60,000 tonnes of structural steel alone.

So....how much material would the CS be able to scavenge from Chicago? Never mind Illinois. And all this presumes that the CS technology is "metal based' instead of ceramics/polymers, etc

EJL

[shadrak]

Somehow this thread got off on a tangent...originally, it was, "how can the CS get away with this (SOT), can they survive?" and it became "how the hell does such a small nation maintain such a large army.

I would like to address the original question...the fact that there is no justice, that the CS can walk roughshod over DBees and magic users, is a good thing. It makes for good role-playing. At the same time, the CS is not invulnerable.

It should also be said that most members of the CS feel justified in their actions. To some extent they are. I was on MSNBC and people were thanking God Al-Zaquari had been killed and were hatin' on some muslims...but many of these muslims are "innocent", and even in their innocence they supported terrorist actions. Yep, here is my chance to get crucified.

What I am saying is that justice can be a matter of perspective. To an Iraqi or Arab who feels oppressed by American actions, killing American soldiers is just no matter how dishonerably you kill them(after all, they are combatants). Americans would disagree, but if America were to be invaded by foreignors, even well meaning ones, you can be sure some Americans would commit "terrorist" acts and call them just.

So, in Rifts, you have "innocent DBees" and "good magic users" who are attacked by the CS. At the same time, citizens of the CS have a cultural memory of all of the attrocities perpetrated against humans and the CS nation since the Apocalypse and many of these were committed by DBees and magic users. Now a CS soldier faces retribution squads...any DBee or magic user could be out for their blood just because of their uniform. Should they shoot first and ask questions later? I don't know, but I probably would. As far as the massacres in Iraq, if they happened, they are wrong, but I can totally understand them. Fear and anger (plus a dash of prejudice and racism) can motivate good people to do horrible things.

The Warlords and leaders of Tolkeen are the same "good people" of 100 PA and "evil bastards" of 109 PA.

[shadrak]

As to how technologically advanced the CS is and how it can field the army it does, well, I will agree-seems a little far fetched. So, too, is the Army that Tolkeen fielded and that of the Pecos Bandits.

In fact, how the hell do the Pecos Bandits support themselves? It would seem the parasite is greater than the host.

To the agriculture issue, given modern techniques (even without fertilizers and pesticides-just the planting and harvesting technology and the ability to genetically enhance crops) Iowa, Illinois and Missouri could feel populations ten times the size of the entire Coalition States. And as far as the blight is concerned, it would just be a matter of planting some different, more exotic crops. As it stands, we (humans) typically cultivate only 30-40 cereal crops, and only 7 or 8 are really focused on. There are hundreds of crops we could be cultivating, from sorghum to millet to buckwheat to cockscomb. With the wealth of knowledge unearthered at Lonestar, strains of these grains must have been preserved somehow. It would have been a strategic oversight for the American Empire not to have protected its food supply.

[Wise_Owl]

Incidentally, before I continue, is there any evidence the Coalition does possess reliable Fusion technology? There 'Nuclear' Power units are most assuredly not Fusion(or somebody has no idea how Fusion energy works, Fusion reactors do not expunge radiation when destroyed, they just shut-down). I've always assumed(and as of yet seen no evidence to the contrary) that the Coalitonw as utilizing some form of advanced Fission technology along with NPU's. I allow myself to be convined otherwise however.

Okay, lets allow that the Coalition has Fusion Power, at least in the form of macro-power generation facilities. You are correct, that would solve much of there problems with energy, but not all of them. FUsion power doesn't remove the need for energy, it just changes it. Any processes to produce hydro-carbons is highly energy intensive and it thus going to be very, very costly(if anybody knows a cheap and efficient method for producing oil, let me know, I know a few Billion people who would love to know, and one side point, we are NOT moving away from an Oil Economy. Some nations are creatign lesser parallel energy structures, but our society is NOWHERE NEAR loosing oil dependence).
Of course this still doesn't answer the Material limitations question. Where is the Gold Coming from? The Superconductors? The Metal? The Coalition isn't making everything out of Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen and Nitrogen. In fact it's probably not making the majority of it's products out of such products. Plastics are non-conductors, and guesse what modern technology requires a hell of a lot of? Given it's size and geographic location a lack of Heavy Metals, Uranium, Gold, Copper, etc. is going to be a serious detriment to production. You can't hand-wave away there requirement for industiral and heavy metals, as well as radioactives, they are the cornerstone of all modern technology.
Lastly, basic economics becomes a problem no matter what. Allow me to put it in perspective>>You have ten guys, all producing a widget and consuming a widget apiece. Suddenly you build an automated factory, now one guy can produce 20 widgets. What do the other 9 guys do? You can put a certain ammount of them in the military(in the case of the CS, 1) you can put them in other industries, but your production problem is not solved. In the real world, this problem is principally solved either by scaling back automation(go into an automotive facotry and see how many jobs are in fact make-work jobs that could be removed with slightly more automation), or you trade externally. There are ways to shift and alter this dynamic, but they require increasing the political oppurtunism of your population as well as increased literacy, technical savy, etc. The Coalition is a closed fascist society, it's production problems are going to bite it in the behind rather quickly, and if you can't utilize the labour of the majority of your population in one way or another your screwed. These people aren't being displaced into higher-tech fields, and the service industry can only absorb so many. So the coalition scales back it's production to allow 100% employement. Wages depreciate, inflation sky-rockets, the average 'purchasing power' of the CS Credit drops.

In the end Material Considerations make the CS Unlikely, and make there Millions of Bots produced in a couple of years insane(I won't even get into the sillyness that is them being produce in secret). In my world the Coalition is a technological stagnant empire engaged in foreign military adventurism to provide economic outlets and prevent it's own socio-economic collapse. Civil unrest is violently surpressed but more common than most believe. Material Reclemation dominates much of the CS Industry and civilian consumer goods are severly curtailed. The CS as written is a Cartoonish supervillain(hell Prosek even has ready-made Doom Troopers and a Big Throne) who are granted things by fiat. Don't get me wrong they're still cool, and for the most part I don't bother with this economic crap in my game cause it's not important, but countries set up like the CS is are economically poor, and the ways the CS could avoid that are speicfically written out of the source material.

[shadrak]

Here's something that has been unaddressed by any of the source materials...Illinois (as well as Montana) huge sources of coal, all of which can be gassified and the by products of this process can be used to feed algae that can be used to produce alcohol. In fact, Illinois has fossil fuel reserves greater than Iraq and Kuwait combined, but the sulfer content of the coal prohibits its use. What is interesting is that the sulfer is reduced through the gassification process.

I wish we were using this now...it becomes pretty feasible when oil hits $30 a barrel

[Warmaster40k]

ok from what im getting from this discussion is that its not going to be the FOM, Lazlo or the Tolkeen Remanent thats going to hurt the CS, its it self through overproduction and inablility to get over their pregidous of magic to alieviate thier problems. But i see Joseph or Jericho killing Karl and Joseph reinstateing the Vangaurd as a military force much like how psycics were when rifts first came out in CS.
Remember psycics were feared adn banned in the CS until recently.