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Ok, odd thought.

Natural Mechanical Genius (NMG) A sells a vehicle he has built, fixed, and otherwise maintained for two years to NMG B, then walks away.

Does the vehicle fall apart?

I don't know if there are new write ups for the NMGs in ATB2, but based on my copy of Road Hogs, it says

So long as the character stays with a vehicle it will continue working

(My emphasis) To me, it seems like if there's a NMG in the car, it'll run. So to answer your question: i think B could take over as the force holding it together.

That's how i've played it, anyway. I GMed a group that had a NMG and a mechanic in it. They loved having him in their truck (it ran better with him in it), but refused to let him work on it (again). ...He could tinker with his own "Bike-pack" all he wanted...

macksting wrote:Can an NMG repair SDC damage to a vehicle without replacement materials?

I think it only applies to getting the mecheanical bits to work. It can still get blown to bits. But if there's enough left to "fix" a NMG should be able to get it working again...

macksting wrote:What can an NMG design and make work?

Well, there's another telling question... if an NMG designs (but not builds) something, and gives the design to a regular mechanic, what's the result?

Editted for clear pronoun references.

I believe the regular mechanic would not be able to be able to do much with it as the NMG would cut a lot of corners, leaving the final schematic useless for anyone trying to use regular skills

Yeah, i doubt a mechanic could follow the plans...

Besides, you can only say "that still doesn't make any sense" so many times before the NMG grabs your soldering iron and does it for you. (They don't [can't?] believe their "powers" are faulty, after all.)

macksting wrote:No, the power offers a fairly significant chance of designing things

No it doesn't, better read the power description again.

, if you've the base skill for it. For instance, if you've got Electricity Generation as a Mechanical Genius, you'll be able to design new and disturbing things which, frankly, probably shouldn't work. An NMG can also, by the way, duplicate any item at 98%, as I recall.

Sorry, no, if you're using the skill, you're not using the power, and if you're using the power, you're not using a skill.

macksting wrote:I'll get back to you on this when I've browsed over the form found in Transdimensional TMNT's human mutant power set. While this is not necessarily the form that AtB mutants receive in the old AtB1 book, I tended to think of it as the same, albeit more detailed.
Yes, bad assumption.
Still, the largely identical form in Tranny TMNT... I really think it granted design
capability. At something like 50% if you had an appropriate repair skill.

I definitely could be wrong, and if AtB2 has a version which differs significantly, any such nattering is totally irrelevant.

In other words, you need to go back and re-read the powers, since Mechanical Manipulation isn't the same thing as a Natural Mechanical Genius.

macksting wrote:Perhaps I should state my question more clearly.
Does AtB2 have an updated version that I'm missing?
*snip*
I really think they're intended to represent the same thing. In fact, I truly believe Mechanical Manipulation is an update.

These two powers are not the same thing. I've just poped open the main book (2nd Edition) and nowhere in the NMG power does it say anything about designing anything. NMG is only ment to patch up machinery that is broken down.

macksting wrote:You can disagree if you like, and I'll be okay with that; I apologize for polluting the thread with a matter which you believe is irrelevent. However, I would point out that the MM could very well be used as an updated and more detailed description of NMG as of AtB1, fleshing out a fairly sparse idea and making clear its capabilities as a party member.

Every GM is allowed to alter what they want to make the setting their own, but should not expect others to take it as canon material.

It doesn't help that you haven't bothered to check the ATB2 entry on Natural Mechanical Genius yet macksting.

Two NMGs build a vehicle together. One of them is later killed. What happens to the vehicle?

MrNexx wrote:Two NMGs build a vehicle together. One of them is later killed. What happens to the vehicle?

First the dead NMG's spirit becomes trapped in the vehicle, then it goes on a rampage killing it's partner and terrorizing everyone on the road. Then after a few hours the world implodes

Actually, nothing happens until the vehicle breaks down and they repair it.

First off, most NMG's don't study Auto Mechanics or Mechanical Engineering. Why bother when you can just walk up to an old clunker and after a bit of fiddling under the hood get it to run like new.

The NMG power only applies when fixing broken machines. Also, it only falls apart after the NMG has repaired the broken down machine a half-dozen times.

The key word is "R-E-P-A-I-R".

Rali wrote:

MrNexx wrote:Two NMGs build a vehicle together. One of them is later killed. What happens to the vehicle?

First the dead NMG's spirit becomes trapped in the vehicle, then it goes on a rampage killing it's partner and terrorizing everyone on the road. Then after a few hours the world implodes

Actually, nothing happens.

First off, most NMG's don't study Auto Mechanics or Mechanical Engineering. Why bother when you can just walk up to an old clunker and after a bit of fiddling under the hood get it to run like new.

The NMG power only applies when fixing broken machines. Also, it only falls apart after the NMG has repaired the broken down machine a half-dozen times.

The key word is "R-E-P-A-I-R".

Right. By "build" I meant "fix up from broken into uselessness". They do it together because they are friends, or because they're twins, or something. They use it for a few years, fixing it as needed. Then one dies.

MrNexx wrote:Right. By "build" I meant "fix up from broken into uselessness".

Ahh.. you mean "rebuild." How did I miss that.

MrNexx wrote:They do it together because they are friends, or because they're twins, or something. They use it for a few years, fixing it as needed. Then one dies.

Okay, for the sake of argument if this were to happen in a game I GMed I would count them both as the first of the six allotted repairs, and as long as either one stayed within 250' of the vehicle it would keeping working perfectly.

And let us assume that they were able to keep this up for a few years (what a sad bunch of characters) until one of them died. As soon as the remaining NMG left the 250' area needed to keep it working, it would suffer the same chance that any other machine repaired by an NMG of breaking down or stop working (see pg 65; AtB2).

The surviving NMG then sticks some "chewing gum and bailing wire" in the engine and it starts working fine again until he leaves 250' of the vehicle and failed the check roll. This continues until the six instance at which time the vehicle crumbles into scrap.

Now, the question you should have been asking is not what happens if the two NMG's work together to rebuild the machine, but what happens if two or more NMG's tag team the repairs.

Does each repair count as one towards the machines demise, or is each one separate? Does each NMG get six repairs or are they cumulative?

I would say they are cumulative, but then I'm an GM.

Rali wrote:I would say they are cumulative, but then I'm an GM.

Noted well for any future games we play.

You know, I've never seen any point to the Natural Mechanical Genius power, it's quite inaccurately named. The character isn't exceptional when it comes to building and repairing things, what he builds or repairs is defective and only remains functional when he's nearby (and technically couldn't even adventure more than the range of the power from his car or other objects without them promptly falling apart becoming useless). Doesn't really make any sense. It should be such that someone's actually better at making real repairs and building and understanding technology.

The Last Darkness wrote:Ive considered making a Natural Mechanical Genius / Techno Mind.
Hacker type character.

Character is obsessed with recovering old machines and making them work again. Including computers....of course they never work for anyone else but him... lol


Second thought....on this subject say natural mechanical genious 1 repairs a item to the point its bound to him, natural mechanical genius 2 wants said item. If they traded or bartered, would the item not break done in the presence of a second NMG or whould it break then be repaired by the second NMG and then be bound to him? As stated NGM are best at repairs and mods, not actualy making things.

I wouldn't think something repaired by NMG 1 would care about NMG 2 since that wasn't who fixed it and only care if NMG 2 repaired it after they did.

But they just aren't a Natural Mechanical Genius when 'they always THINK they did a real repair' is explicit in the description and anything they fix WILL fall apart after they get too far away. A real NMG would have an instinctive ability to understand, repair, and build with technology and what they did would be real work not fake work sustained by pure psionic power. Much like the Natural and Genius PCC from Nightbane the character with NMG would have inherent instinctive skills like the Computer Genius and Electrical Genius provide and with some training could gain impressive bonuses in those mechanical/electrical skills.

if you want a distance free NMG type power, steal the "brainstorming" ability from the Systems failure egghead, and set it up as a "mad scientist" type power. able to come up with weird but possible repairs that keep working..even when he's not around.

glitterboy2098 wrote:if you want a distance free NMG type power, steal the "brainstorming" ability from the Systems failure egghead, and set it up as a "mad scientist" type power. able to come up with weird but possible repairs that keep working..even when he's not around.

Haven't seen that RPG, but in any case the NMG really isn't if he isn't really repairing things but instead his power just fakes it. It's really a mislabeled power because the character isn't a mechanical genius and is even written to not be able to figure out he's not always absolutely convinced he does real quality work when it's a shoddy junk repair that he makes work because he believes it will.

Nightmask wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:if you want a distance free NMG type power, steal the "brainstorming" ability from the Systems failure egghead, and set it up as a "mad scientist" type power. able to come up with weird but possible repairs that keep working..even when he's not around.

Haven't seen that RPG, but in any case the NMG really isn't if he isn't really repairing things but instead his power just fakes it. It's really a mislabeled power because the character isn't a mechanical genius and is even written to not be able to figure out he's not always absolutely convinced he does real quality work when it's a shoddy junk repair that he makes work because he believes it will.

in systems failure, the "egghead" OCC is a scientist OCC. his "brainstorming" power allows him to make conceptual leaps in game, like for example, figuring out how to build a trap that will capture electrical form bugs and drain power from them. or how to splice bug DNA into people or plants to make bugged humans or organitech weapons.

a NMG is using psionic powers to warp reality so that the hardware stuff they do works. an egghead's brainstorming ability allows intuitive "eureka" moments where you figure out how to do something within the normal reality.

all i'm suggesting is that you take the brainstorming ability, add a Bio-E cost, and treat it as a "mad scientist" type power. like being able to build an engine from misc junk, that actually works without psionic tricks.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:if you want a distance free NMG type power, steal the "brainstorming" ability from the Systems failure egghead, and set it up as a "mad scientist" type power. able to come up with weird but possible repairs that keep working..even when he's not around.

Haven't seen that RPG, but in any case the NMG really isn't if he isn't really repairing things but instead his power just fakes it. It's really a mislabeled power because the character isn't a mechanical genius and is even written to not be able to figure out he's not always absolutely convinced he does real quality work when it's a shoddy junk repair that he makes work because he believes it will.

in systems failure, the "egghead" OCC is a scientist OCC. his "brainstorming" power allows him to make conceptual leaps in game, like for example, figuring out how to build a trap that will capture electrical form bugs and drain power from them. or how to splice bug DNA into people or plants to make bugged humans or organitech weapons.

a NMG is using psionic powers to warp reality so that the hardware stuff they do works. an egghead's brainstorming ability allows intuitive "eureka" moments where you figure out how to do something within the normal reality.

all i'm suggesting is that you take the brainstorming ability, add a Bio-E cost, and treat it as a "mad scientist" type power. like being able to build an engine from misc junk, that actually works without psionic tricks.

I think my point's been missed, as my complaint is the power is labeled wrong and should be renamed and an actual Natural Mechanical Genius power be produced. You aren't a genius in all things mechanical if your power holds things together making them work when they can't logically do so (makes them much like the psychic tech characters from BtS whose gadgets require they invest some of their energy into them so that they work because they can't otherwise). You don't call a Gliding power Sonic Flight after all, or the ability to fire bolts of electricity Fire Spikes. So a Natural Mechanical Genius should be just that, they've exceptional intelligence in all things mechanical doing actual quality work better than anyone else can.

i think the power has the name it does not because the person was supposed to actually be a natural genius at it, but because to other people (in a setting where how it actually works is unknown), it looks liek the person with the power is a natural genius at it.

most of the psionic powers are named similarly. "speak to animals" for example probably doesn't actually involve speaking a literal animal language or understanding the sounds they make, but rather being able to mentally send and receive concepts to/from an animal. but to another person, it looks like your having a conversation with that animal.
mind trap isn't literally putting the brain into a trap, but creating an illusory experiance for the person. but to an another person watching, it's like the persons "mind" just vanished..

glitterboy2098 wrote:i think the power has the name it does not because the person was supposed to actually be a natural genius at it, but because to other people (in a setting where how it actually works is unknown), it looks liek the person with the power is a natural genius at it.

most of the psionic powers are named similarly. "speak to animals" for example probably doesn't actually involve speaking a literal animal language or understanding the sounds they make, but rather being able to mentally send and receive concepts to/from an animal. but to another person, it looks like your having a conversation with that animal.
mind trap isn't literally putting the brain into a trap, but creating an illusory experiance for the person. but to an another person watching, it's like the persons "mind" just vanished..

Except the Natural Mechanical Genius doesn't look like a natural at it, everyone thinks he's a screw-up who can't do anything right because the stuff breaks down as soon as he's gone.

but he's able to repair a car engine with duct tape, twine, and super glue... which no one in their right mind would expect to work (thus the genius part), nor last (thus the breaking down)

remember, no one is supposed ot know that the power is psionic in nature, and he still has to actually "fix" the hardware. the book doesn't claim the "screw up" part, just the "can repair anything mechanical, even if they don't have the right tools or parts" and the fact it breaks down if he leaves it. a properly played NMG character would be constantly tinkering with the stuff anyway, making it look like it'll work only as long as he's "maintaining" it...which would be expected of a person who thinks he's a natural genius at mechanics.

remember, none of the other characters would know it's psionic in nature, and the guy with it wouldn't know either.

glitterboy2098 wrote:but he's able to repair a car engine with duct tape, twine, and super glue... which no one in their right mind would expect to work (thus the genius part), nor last (thus the breaking down)

remember, no one is supposed ot know that the power is psionic in nature, and he still has to actually "fix" the hardware. the book doesn't claim the "screw up" part, just the "can repair anything mechanical, even if they don't have the right tools or parts" and the fact it breaks down if he leaves it. a properly played NMG character would be constantly tinkering with the stuff anyway, making it look like it'll work only as long as he's "maintaining" it...which would be expected of a person who thinks he's a natural genius at mechanics.

remember, none of the other characters would know it's psionic in nature, and the guy with it wouldn't know either.

I think you're missing the point, that they aren't in fact mechanical geniuses and no one would believe that they were because nothing they 'fix' is every actually fixed. I've never made mention of the fact of the characters In-universe thinking he's psionic, only that while the character THINKS he's a genius at repair nobody will ever agree because NOTHING he repairs keeps working once he's worked on it and left the area. They see a charlatan, a fraud, someone who claims he can fix anything but instead everything he fixes breaks and if he repairs it too often will corrode to scrap once he's gone from the area. Worse the character is said to be 100% certain he does do real repairs and it's everyone else's fault the stuff breaks so the character is required to be delusional and unable to figure out he can't really fix anything even if he's got an IQ of 30.

i think your viewing it too much through the third person omniscent perspective and not enough through the first person limited perspective of a person inside the gameworld.

remember, a person with the NMG power doesn't realize their psionic. nor do those around them. and the things they do fix do work afterwards, even when they leave. it's just that after 6 "fixings" said things break down when they leave. then again, if a regular mechanic repaired something six times without a complete rebuild/overhaul, virtually anything is going to break down, psionics or no psionics.

so for the average character in the setting, the NMG is exactly as advertised. a person who is a natural at repairing things. the distance thing only applies to things they've fiddled with too ,any times..and i've known enough real mechanics to know that if they fiddle with something too much, it's more likely to break when they're not their to tweak things as they go along.

a NMG with a car isn't going ot be considered as "that fruad who's car is linked to him", he's going to be considered as "that annoying guy who's car is held together with duct tape". his stuff not working would be considered just a side effect of his relying in his "natural genius" instead of getting a real trained mechanic to work on it.


in effect, the NMG is the Red Green of After the bomb. always repairing his "possum van" with duct tape, bits of old dryer hose, household plumbing pipes, and so on. anything he's "fixed" six times in a row is going to look so bodged together from unlikely junk no one would ever suspect the failures came from a non-mechanical source.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i think your viewing it too much through the third person omniscent perspective and not enough through the first person limited perspective of a person inside the gameworld.

remember, a person with the NMG power doesn't realize their psionic. nor do those around them. and the things they do fix do work afterwards, even when they leave. it's just that after 6 "fixings" said things break down when they leave. then again, if a regular mechanic repaired something six times without a complete rebuild/overhaul, virtually anything is going to break down, psionics or no psionics.

so for the average character in the setting, the NMG is exactly as advertised. a person who is a natural at repairing things. the distance thing only applies to things they've fiddled with too ,any times..and i've known enough real mechanics to know that if they fiddle with something too much, it's more likely to break when they're not their to tweak things as they go along.

a NMG with a car isn't going ot be considered as "that fruad who's car is linked to him", he's going to be considered as "that annoying guy who's car is held together with duct tape". his stuff not working would be considered just a side effect of his relying in his "natural genius" instead of getting a real trained mechanic to work on it.


in effect, the NMG is the Red Green of After the bomb. always repairing his "possum van" with duct tape, bits of old dryer hose, household plumbing pipes, and so on. anything he's "fixed" six times in a row is going to look so bodged together from unlikely junk no one would ever suspect the failures came from a non-mechanical source.

Might want to recheck the power, it clearly states that when they leave anything that they've fixed it breaks down again. There's a chance it doesn't break down completely but even then it has performance issues. What's more it also directly states the NMG has a bad reputation because he appears to do shoddy repairs. What's more after 6 repairs the machine is so totally dependent upon him that it will literally crumble into a pile of parts requiring a REAL mechanic to fix it and even then at a penalty. So even in the power itself it states that they aren't in fact really a natural mechanical genius even though that's the label on the power.