Forums of the Megaverse®

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:22 pm**

Honestly though, i just recently been playing in a group with some friends who are beyond Power Munchkins. They use this pdf of a compilation of skills that some fan created and all they do when they make characters is try to get the most attacks and bonuses AT LEVEL 1 !

Hell i dont remember the OCC they took but one of them showed me their level one character from a game they used to play and all their combat bonuses, initiative included all were at LEAST 14... I mean huh???!?

Then on top of that they some how allow each other to branch an RCC with an OCC that the RCC cant even take!.

I have no clue what to do except for maybe make a simple character that can kill them off to show that ya dont need power, or just dont go.. but damn my friends are crazy.

How do you all deal with this type of thing if it happens to you? And do you have any advice for me on this situatioN?

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:02 pm**

i forgot to mention one thing now since i reread it.. they were playing this way before i came to their group so they've been playing power munchkins for years now, and i discovered their power munchkinism after gming for them for the first time.

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:06 pm**

Taythan wrote:First off as a GM sometimes you just have to put your foot down on certain rules. This can be touchy when dealing with some players but if you don't do it, you're going to have ALL of your players running rampant on you and then you've lost control of the situation and it's no fun for anybody. You were selected to be the GM by the players and if they want to play the game then they have to follow your rules.
If allowing an RCC/OCC mix just isn't right for the game then tell the player "I'm sorry but I can't allow that in this game." Not to tell them that their mix is wrong, perhaps with a different GM or even in a different campaign of yours that mix might work, but make it clear where you stand. It's much better to put your foot down before the game gets going. I insist on having a copy of the PC's before we even begin so I can look them over. More than once I handed a character back saying....There is no way you rolled 30+ for every attribute... and usually I get a laugh and some half assed excuse but they always bring back the character with more realistic stats.
One main cardinal rule to live by is that once you allow a character do not deliberately go out of your way to intentionally kill a PC. Your players will sense the intent and resent your judgment and then of course nobody is having fun.
Being a GM isn't for everyone, it take a higher level of responsibilty and commitment. Your players will respect your efforts as long as you don't be a tyrant about it. When you do disallow a character race or attributes explain to them why. Listen to them if they wish to explain themselves but be firm. If they start getting a little out of control stay cool.

Ya know i greatly respect that, and im trying to become more firm as such, but my major mistake in running the first campaign is i didnt get to meet two of the players before playing so i didnt get to know in advance what they were playing so when it came to play it was like huh???!.. and since they had no backups i allowed it for the one day... but what made it worse is that they are combat whores and didnt like my whole campaign of skills and strategy... so big learning experience but i do need to be more firm with everyone.
Thanks

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:55 pm**

The thing that sucks here is that im the player welcomed to their place where they are used to haveing everyone take turns gming.. hmm i think as a player ill beat them at their own game by playing a weak character and have it kill them or something.

Not sure yet though. Might just be after this weekend ill just stop going to them.

Posted: **Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:58 am**

Shadowfyr wrote:The thing that sucks here is that im the player welcomed to their place where they are used to haveing everyone take turns gming.. hmm i think as a player ill beat them at their own game by playing a weak character and have it kill them or something.

Not sure yet though. Might just be after this weekend ill just stop going to them.

Since they take turns running games I wouldn't see why they would have a problem with running a toned down game. Its not like they won't get the chance to play their god like characters again, just not with your game.
And pc to pc killing is poopy thing to do. You shouldn't disrupt thier game because you don't agree with the style, it is a weeeeee bit selfish and will just cause bad feelings to form. Unless you don't plan on playing with them anymore then kill away. But you never know when you may become playerless and need a group to play with and its nice to have a choice of groups to choose from.
Also try telling them how you feel, you never know. The worst that could happen is that you won't be playing with then anymore, and from what you've written that shouldn't be problem, considering you're going to quit anyway.
good luck

Posted: **Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:18 pm**

wolfsgrin wrote:
Shadowfyr wrote:The thing that sucks here is that im the player welcomed to their place where they are used to haveing everyone take turns gming.. hmm i think as a player ill beat them at their own game by playing a weak character and have it kill them or something.

Not sure yet though. Might just be after this weekend ill just stop going to them.

Since they take turns running games I wouldn't see why they would have a problem with running a toned down game. Its not like they won't get the chance to play their god like characters again, just not with your game.
And pc to pc killing is poopy thing to do. You shouldn't disrupt thier game because you don't agree with the style, it is a weeeeee bit selfish and will just cause bad feelings to form. Unless you don't plan on playing with them anymore then kill away. But you never know when you may become playerless and need a group to play with and its nice to have a choice of groups to choose from.
Also try telling them how you feel, you never know. The worst that could happen is that you won't be playing with then anymore, and from what you've written that shouldn't be problem, considering you're going to quit anyway.
good luck

Yea i know its one thing i do hate, but i just think it would be great to create a full book legal character and kill their god like characters with and just show that stats and attributes dont make the player.

Posted: **Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:34 am**

Shadowfyr wrote:
wolfsgrin wrote:
Shadowfyr wrote:The thing that sucks here is that im the player welcomed to their place where they are used to haveing everyone take turns gming.. hmm i think as a player ill beat them at their own game by playing a weak character and have it kill them or something.

Not sure yet though. Might just be after this weekend ill just stop going to them.

Since they take turns running games I wouldn't see why they would have a problem with running a toned down game. Its not like they won't get the chance to play their god like characters again, just not with your game.
And pc to pc killing is poopy thing to do. You shouldn't disrupt thier game because you don't agree with the style, it is a weeeeee bit selfish and will just cause bad feelings to form. Unless you don't plan on playing with them anymore then kill away. But you never know when you may become playerless and need a group to play with and its nice to have a choice of groups to choose from.
Also try telling them how you feel, you never know. The worst that could happen is that you won't be playing with then anymore, and from what you've written that shouldn't be problem, considering you're going to quit anyway.
good luck

Yea i know its one thing i do hate, but i just think it would be great to create a full book legal character and kill their god like characters with and just show that stats and attributes dont make the player.

very true

Posted: **Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:48 pm**

1) Pre Gens
2) sure they can fight but they can't punch their way out of traps, acid baths, lack of oxygen, no way to replenish armor or armaments, disabling a bomb, bleeding to death, being knocked out and pushed into a pool of water etc. Munchkins are just tough. When it comes to things that have nothing to do with combat they are lost and if their survival depends on it then they are dead.

Know what skills they do and do not have and Reverse munchkin the game if talking to them doesn't work

set a trap that can only be disarmed by reading a the carved script in latin/cantonese/klingon/etc that is plainly visible

Posted: **Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:52 pm**

Remember those optional damage and recovery tables in the front of the main books. Use them, sence its you as a GM who has the option to use them. Then there is the Ugly Stick fo r those chars with insanely high PB. Then there is the -10 rule for dodging ranged weapons (the one where they use the nat die role only and then factor in the -10). Then if they actully leave a government intacte....have said government devote them selves to the chars distruction by building a super weapon to take them out.

"Bring out the Holy Hand Granade"

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictures/grail/large/HolyGrail189.jpg

Posted: **Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:20 pm**

Heres something I read. It's from another Gaming board, but the very essense rolls across all game boundries.

Just to throw in another comment, if you're worried about controlling a power gamer then don't start at level 10. Start at level 1 and make him earn that power. The added advantage is that some of the super optimised builds are just plain unworkable at lower levels (or much more difficult at least).

Second, always make sure that he's following all the rules properly. As soon as you mentioned him having a fullblade I shuddered a little. Does the player have EWP (fullblade)? Is he taking the -2 to hit from it? Did the spells he was casting have a somatic component, if so he can't cast them while wielding a 2-handed weapon unless he's using still spell, in which case did he use a higher level spell slot, did he have them prepared with still spell?

I'm bringing these up because often power gamers ignore certain rules that interfere with their uberbuild and it's the DM's responsibility to make sure that everything is following the rules. It's a great way to keep a power gamer somewhat under control.

Now, within the bounds of the adventure itself, Joe had a point in challenging you. It is a game of free will, after all, and of consequences, so it is only fair to play out Joe's extradition from the tavern. You can't simply say, "okay, they kick you out." Joe has the right to resist and to see what happens when he does.

But, all that aside, Joe's challenging of the DM's authority goes back to character creation and previous games. From what you say, Joe intentionally makes characters that don't agree with the party dynamic. He intentionally does things that are merely self-serving, he has no patience for any other function of the game, and he wants "to see you make him," to use the vernacular of playground fights between ten-year-olds. He then seems surprised and takes personally the in-game consequences.

Joe is sort of a ten-year-old: You aren't the boss of him and he wants to see you try it. That's reason enough to be rid of him.

Now, some here think that players only "learn the hard way" and must be "taught a lesson." For the millionth time, no they don't, and you aren't their daddy and it isn't your business to treat them like you are, or are their boss or teacher or somehow superior.

Even if you took that route, likely your use of a D&D game to "straighten Joe out" is going to fail miserably. People like Joe change only when they're good and ready, and usually that is a process involving years of experience and real-life consequences. It's much more reasonable for Joe to find a game he is comfortable with, and for you to find someone else you are happier playing with, than to think that either of you can change the other.

Let Joe go. He is better off playing a video game and clicking his mouse through the cutaways. He is not for your game.

Posted: **Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:03 pm**

Munchkins only screw things up.
Fire them.

If you don't have fire, the old "head on a pike" thing also works (and makes a handy warning for the next players).

Posted: **Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:11 pm**

I've recently started my players at level 0 to give them an appreciation of just how tought they actually are to begin with

Posted: **Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:18 pm**

Ninjabunny wrote:That was deep and to the point who posted that and where?

It was an old post from the D&D boards, I can't remember who posted it though, but he was wise.

Posted: **Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:44 pm**

well in my experince...

the players try to make a new character that you will approve or go to another game.

just my two cents..

BTW anyone know of a game in the everett, WA area accepting players??

Posted: **Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:22 pm**

Operator John wrote:BTW anyone know of a game in the everett, WA area accepting players??

Shoot, a little off. I'm down in Tacoma getting a BTS2 campaign going - no doubt too far to drive :-/

Posted: **Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:47 pm**

Delwugor wrote:
Operator John wrote:the players try to make a new character that you will approve or go to another game.

Saw a GM go through persuading the player to lay aside his old munchkin and roll up a new one. He rolled the new character with 25 strength (final) and made a munchkin ranger (power ranger ) with all of the extra fighting skills.
I wrote about this character's attempt to hunt rabbits in another thread about the dumbest thing ever.

As you can tell this is a munchkin player and more harsh methods are going to be needed.

Another way to limit the power level of achar is to be a despot and have them use Atribut rolls you yourself rolled then place the lowest rols in the muchkin stats of PS, PP, & PE. So they end up week, uncordinated, and unhealthy. Also limiting them to One physical skill , with h2h skill counting as physical skills.

Posted: **Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:40 pm**

Delwugor wrote:
drewkitty wrote:Another way to limit the power level of achar is to be a despot and have them use Atribut rolls you yourself rolled then place the lowest rols in the muchkin stats of PS, PP, & PE. So they end up week, uncordinated, and unhealthy. Also limiting them to One physical skill , with h2h skill counting as physical skills.

I wanted to play such a charcter after some camplaints about my character being a munchkin. OK he has really high stats so he is a munchkin but I'm not a munchkin player.

Well all to that is, There are no Munchkin charaters, there are only munchkin players.

And if you have a couple power char in you stables that doesn't make you a munchinkin. Its just makes you ready to play those high powered games.

Posted: **Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:27 am**

Arrghhh! Super duper new and improved munchkin Hulk Smash!

Posted: **Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:49 pm**

I have done a few things to prevent munckinism.

1) Make some physical skills cost double (Boxing, Wrestling, Kickboxing) or even triple (Gymnastics and Acrobatics).
2) Require prerequisite skills, for example you can't have Robot Combat Elite, unless you 1st have the Robot Combat: Basic skill and that elite skill only covers or or two robots/mecha at best.

Also if a player tries to pick an OCC their RCC can't have or I think doesn't work they need to pick again.

Posted: **Sat May 05, 2007 9:03 pm**

Shadowfyr wrote:Honestly though, i just recently been playing in a group with some friends who are beyond Power Munchkins. They use this pdf of a compilation of skills that some fan created and all they do when they make characters is try to get the most attacks and bonuses AT LEVEL 1 !

Hell i dont remember the OCC they took but one of them showed me their level one character from a game they used to play and all their combat bonuses, initiative included all were at LEAST 14... I mean huh???!?

Then on top of that they some how allow each other to branch an RCC with an OCC that the RCC cant even take!.

I have no clue what to do except for maybe make a simple character that can kill them off to show that ya dont need power, or just dont go.. but damn my friends are crazy.

How do you all deal with this type of thing if it happens to you? And do you have any advice for me on this situatioN?

rocks fall, everyone dies(meteor reference for those who dont know)

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2007 2:56 pm**

for me its simple ... IF i find myself in a game with said power munchkin ... let them go first .... let them do all the fighting .. let them do all the work .. but unlike others that will snuggle up and flirt and bed the bloke or bint ... i just stay to the back and form aliances with other 'outside the norm' types like myself.

let them run off at the mouth about this and that ... then go do things behind the scenes over IM ... so that you are getting info that the others don't know about.
- Char with an outrageously high PB walks into the city hall of records to find out some info about a property .. with telepathy .. skims the surface thoughts as well as asking questions. beingfemale with a tight sweater helped .. along with a random pose and a seemingly deep interest in every word the young gent said.
-=- result -=-
one very flattered young bloke, with need in his mind .. answering honestly any question she asked. she got a massive background story/history about the place in question and besides making his day, found stuff out that she wasn't supposed to find out.
-= group response to char's info =-
'yeah right ... i don't think so. we should do this and that and the other ... ' disregarded the info i had, ignored me .. so like .. whatever. the powergamers may think they rule the game ...but its the ones that do the groundwork behind the scenes that gett he better game out of it. mind you ... you also have to be careful aboutWHICH GM you run under. cause some of them now will ignore you more than thepower gamers in the game. those are the ones that i avoid with a vengence ... outright refusal to game with them in ANY manner

Posted: **Sat May 12, 2007 9:47 am**

I had a similar situation with a player who was making a weapon for his FCB, some crazy giant vibro-lance, that he decided should do something like 1D10X40 MD :shock:

When asked to justify this wackiness, he said he had determined the damage as if the lance was mounted to an APC at full speed! Explaining that an APC is not a borg (force = mass x velocity) he started to get the clue that this weapon wasn't getting into my game as he had it written.

So when smacking down munchkinism, try logic first and failing that, just say no 8-)

Posted: **Fri May 18, 2007 9:01 pm**

Reaper wrote::D FLAMING COW FROM OUTER SPACE! sorry couldnt hold that in.

You use orbital bovine bombardment too!?

Posted: **Sun May 20, 2007 6:45 pm**

J. Lionheart wrote:
Operator John wrote:BTW anyone know of a game in the everett, WA area accepting players??

Shoot, a little off. I'm down in Tacoma getting a BTS2 campaign going - no doubt too far to drive :-/

Do you do Rifts as well?

Posted: **Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:10 pm**

I create a semblance of balance (note this is inherently impossible in Rifts) during initial character creation through the assignment/restriction of gear.

For Example:

Rogue Scholar: Really cool stuff! Naruni pistol? You got it! Big Boss ATV? Sure!

Headhunter: Decent gear, don't expect to be starting off with a Naruni Forcefield though.

Glitter Boy: Don't expect much aside from your PA suit...you'll likely start off in need of immediate employment unless you want to forage for your next meal.

Posted: **Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:32 pm**

Communication is key. ANd if they don't listen to you, kill them off until they change their ways or stop playing. You can't give in to these babies.

Posted: **Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:03 pm**

Evil_Brak wrote:Just going off and killing them because it's not the type of game you prefer is a pretty petty way of doing things.

For the record, them was just jokes.

Communication is key. Everything comes from that, such as having fun. If you cannot tell someone what you like, could be a spate of boredom until they figuire it out for themselves.

Posted: **Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:40 pm**

That is when the jokes come in handy.

Posted: **Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:37 am**

i guess i shouldn't you about my CS kill cat (Bruno)with 76 supernatural strength or about my best friends minotaur juicers or his other juicers , who were created long before the juicer uprisings come out, which made most of them not being allowed to be juicers.

now while some might see the as munchkin characters, but they arn't

Bruno while he can go toe to toe with any god in a strength contest, he is very much an sdc character with like 1080 sdc and ignores pain

the minotaur juicers one having a roll each time he sees violence to avoid goto into a blind frenzy and attacking his teammates, the other is protective of the weaker characters

first the character in rifts aren't supposed to be average, they are meant to stand out, and not be like the emo store clerk.

but dumb dwarf made a great point, an munchkin strong suit is combat, I ran several adventures that didn't even have combat and focus on role playing or skill based adventures,and early on I show my players it always good to be a team player vs someone in a group looking out for only themselves. Sometimes a high powered adventure is good with a few high power character and low powered characters trying to stop some powerful threat.

if a player is trying to use a powerful character , do the 20 questions bit or ask for a back story. maybe a player feels they need a powerful character just to survive ( damage goods player) then you need to look at yourself as the GM and your gming.

personally if you start limiting what can and can't be play then maybe you should quit playing

Posted: **Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:46 am**

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:now while some might see the as munchkin characters, but they arn't

I like how you balanced them.

Uber power is not munchkin, necessarily.

Posted: **Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:01 pm**

lather wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:now while some might see the as munchkin characters, but they arn't

I like how you balanced them.

Uber power is not munchkin, necessarily.

some see it as, and then say not you can't use the character instead of trying to convert to player out of using a powerful character, Me? I just look at the player and tell them "it's going to be a long boring night for you"

Posted: **Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:25 pm**

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
lather wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:now while some might see the as munchkin characters, but they arn't

I like how you balanced them.

Uber power is not munchkin, necessarily.
some see it as, and then say not you can't use the character instead of trying to convert to player out of using a powerful character, Me? I just look at the player and tell them "it's going to be a long boring night for you"

I'm hip. Works for me.

Although I would make an honest effort but not break my back to maybe get the uber character on a side project that might alleviate some of the boredom. But if it is not possible, boredom it is.

Posted: **Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:16 pm**

In my experience, the CS military is a pretty good munchkin equalizer.

Most munchkins design their PC's to be one man killing machines. That's all fine and dandy when you're fighting uncoordinated hordes.

When fighting group of infantry and PA utilizing squad tactics, coordinated fire and teamwork? Now that's a different story!

I had a munchkin PC in my group from Korea who played as a dragon hatchling, one man killing machine and all that. He enjoyed his reign of terror, got cocky and thought he could sneak attack and destroy a deaths head transport (using invisibility). He failed to anticipate the use of radar. He failed to anticipate sensor systems (ie; thermal imaging). He totally failed to account for multiple gunners and weapon systems. Looking at iminent defeat, he teleported to, what he thought, was a safe distance away.

Then came the squad of SAMAS....

Posted: **Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:56 pm**

The fastest way to get dead is to not think.

Posted: **Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:14 am**

Amen to that! :-D

Posted: **Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:41 pm**

Skinny Girl wrote:
lather wrote:The fastest way to get dead is to not think.

I thought the fastest way to get dead was to be run over by a truck?

Your chances of that not happening increase dramatically when you start thinking.

Not thinking:
"Dumdeedum oh hum," *SPLAT*

Thinking:
"Look both ways twice before crossing the street."

While tomorrow is never guaranteed you can still make intelligent decisions today.

But yea a truck will get the job done about as fast as anything.

Posted: **Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:09 pm**

Use a rocket launcher...(or has that been said already)...

Posted: **Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:32 pm**

Skinny Girl wrote:I suppose that's true, but "not thinking" is a lack of action, rather than doing something to get said *SPLAT* to happen.

Nit picker.

Posted: **Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:48 pm**

I get the lint out first though.

Posted: **Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:16 pm**

I don't allow any made-up online crap. If it isn't in the BOOKS, it doesn't exist. If it's legal in the books, I allow most of it... the exception being Cosmo-Knights; I make them start out as fallen knights and redeem themselves. That way I can tell if the player can really handle playing one correctly, and not just have the kewlest powerz in the campaign.

Posted: **Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:21 pm**

No toilet paper? Cruel world!

Posted: **Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:13 am**

lather wrote:No toilet paper? Cruel world!

Some might be that silly, I meant the skills or other weird stuff that some people cook up for their games. I do allow stuff from the Rifter in my games for the most part, even though it isn't "official" alot of the time.

Posted: **Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:31 am**

Vrykolas2k wrote:
lather wrote:No toilet paper? Cruel world!

Some might be that silly, I meant the skills or other weird stuff that some people cook up for their games. I do allow stuff from the Rifter in my games for the most part, even though it isn't "official" alot of the time.

Yea I know.

I have worked with players in creating things that are unlike anything anywhere in any of the books that we had between us. He enjoyed his character and I did not have to restore balance with an unescapable death trap.

Posted: **Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:07 pm**

Lost Waif wrote:
lather wrote:I have worked with players in creating things that are unlike anything anywhere in any of the books that we had between us. He enjoyed his character and I did not have to restore balance with an unescapable death trap.

Just give them a secret identity and a nagging wife. Shapes them up in no time.

Yea but I'm not cruel :lol:

Posted: **Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:42 pm**

I use the really do not belong here bar. You know the kind when you push through the door and every head in the joint swivels slowly each one letting you that you really do not believe here.

Posted: **Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:08 pm**

That's when you know you were drunk.

Posted: **Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:23 pm**

Shadowfyr wrote:Honestly though, i just recently been playing in a group with some friends who are beyond Power Munchkins. They use this pdf of a compilation of skills that some fan created and all they do when they make characters is try to get the most attacks and bonuses AT LEVEL 1 !

Hell i dont remember the OCC they took but one of them showed me their level one character from a game they used to play and all their combat bonuses, initiative included all were at LEAST 14... I mean huh???!?

Then on top of that they some how allow each other to branch an RCC with an OCC that the RCC cant even take!.

I have no clue what to do except for maybe make a simple character that can kill them off to show that ya dont need power, or just dont go.. but damn my friends are crazy.

How do you all deal with this type of thing if it happens to you? And do you have any advice for me on this situatioN?

one thing that works, that a few players don't like about my games,is that i MAKE my games balanced and consequence based.being a GM IS AN ART. you have to balance power and fun with chaos.I have one VERY SIMPLE rules when I GM, or let's just say principals.

power = enemies:
if you're a mortal and have great power or uber weaponry you probably stepped on some toes to get those items.plus, rifts earth is a place where most of the AVERAGE population is poor,powerless and determined to change it.if you're flashing power and weapons,much like real life, chances are somebody is going to make a play for your goods.
of course if you're a demi god or true atlantean or dragon then I'll make sure that the general population is prepared to deal with such players should they decide to "GO LOCO" on the town,city or world.

so,let them do what they like, but remember as a GM you have to train your players with a "boundless limitations" principal:
let them do what they want,but make it the challenge match their power, and you know there's no shortage of powerful beings on rifts earth.

Posted: **Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:33 pm**

Of course, long-range artillery is always an option...

Posted: **Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:37 pm**

Vrykolas2k wrote:Of course, long-range artillery is always an option...

yes,and so is

1.a nuke

2.a mechanoid rift in

3.a coalition honor guard of 9 battallions.

Posted: **Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:44 pm**

A really nasty flu outbreak...

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