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I've seen his famous quote "technology sufficently advanced is indistinguishable from magic"

and then seen it misued...horribly.

he never said "there is no difference between magic and tech". or even "that it's all just the same kind of energy".

he's only said "our preceptions are easially fooled"

Yes, yes, if you take a ciggerette lighter back in time, a cave man might think it's magic.

that make it magic? no. that mean you can harm vampires wiht it? no. only that the cave man has misprecived the evidence before him.

This was formed in responce to the Cosmic energy thread, where I must have read the same misquote a dozen or more times...

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I've seen his famous quote "technology sufficently advanced is indistinguishable from magic"

and then seen it misued...horribly.

he never said "there is no difference between magic and tech". or even "that it's all just the same kind of energy".

he's only said "our preceptions are easially fooled"

Yes, yes, if you take a ciggerette lighter back in time, a cave man might think it's magic.

that make it magic? no. that mean you can harm vampires wiht it? no. only that the cave man has misprecived the evidence before him.

We are saying the same thing albeit using different terminology for it.

Namely, what I call "percieved Supernaturality" (what a Star Trek Teleporter Beam or Phaser might look like to a 19th Century Earther) versus "True Supernaturality" (for example, the concept of a Creator of the Universe who does not seem to be bound by the Laws of Cause and Effect itself, or the concept of the Palladium Vampires' complete invulnerability to most things yet weakness to others).

The argument here is can a sufficently advanced technology simulate the effects of magic. The answer is yes. A sufficnetly advanced technology is able to duplicate the effects of magic. Technowizardry is a prime example of this effect. A whole technology revolving arround the simulation of magical effects. Granted technowizardry as presented in its current form in palladium books uses magic to simulate technology. It is therefore possible to use technology to simulate magic making a sufficently advanced technology indistinguishable from magic. I understand your argument stating simulating a magical effect does not make the effect magical in nature but it is possible the technology is tapping into the same underlying principles. Example a globe ofg daylight spell causes the fabric of the universe to alter creating daylight where none should exist. Should a flashlight use the same method to create a beam of light it is invoking a magical effect.

Greyaxe wrote:The argument here is can a sufficently advanced technology simulate the effects of magic. The answer is yes. A sufficnetly advanced technology is able to duplicate the effects of magic. Technowizardry is a prime example of this effect. A whole technology revolving arround the simulation of magical effects. Granted technowizardry as presented in its current form in palladium books uses magic to simulate technology. It is therefore possible to use technology to simulate magic making a sufficently advanced technology indistinguishable from magic. I understand your argument stating simulating a magical effect does not make the effect magical in nature but it is possible the technology is tapping into the same underlying principles. Example a globe ofg daylight spell causes the fabric of the universe to alter creating daylight where none should exist. Should a flashlight use the same method to create a beam of light it is invoking a magical effect.

You obviously didn't actually read the discription of Techno Wizardy very well..it's not technology emulating magic. it's magic being cast though technology. nothing less, nothing more.

All the examples given here are based arround mundane technologies, comparing the primitive to the early industrial age. What we are discussing in the forums is technology so advanced it may very well harness the same underlying principles as magic. So instead of invoking words and movement to create a fireball technology could tap into the very fabric of what makes creating a fireball, magically, possible. If this technology can do this then it is indistinguishable from magic and would produce the same effect. Thus allowing a sufficiently advanced technology the potential to inflict magical damage to things which are typically immune to technology but vulnerable to magic, such as vampires.

Greyaxe wrote:All the examples given here are based arround mundane technologies, comparing the primitive to the early industrial age. What we are discussing in the forums is technology so advanced it may very well harness the same underlying principles as magic. So instead of invoking words and movement to create a fireball technology could tap into the very fabric of what makes creating a fireball, magically, possible. If this technology can do this then it is indistinguishable from magic and would produce the same effect. Thus allowing a sufficiently advanced technology the potential to inflict magical damage to things which are typically immune to technology but vulnerable to magic, such as vampires.

Except we're not talking about technology that does that. at all. so thats...not really applicable. there is nothing in palladium that CAN do that, we can't even safely assume the cosmic forge can or does.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

darkmax wrote:Why? So that we can start raking up more thread counts?!

No, it's all about the post count.

[Doom] Yes. [/Doom]

Greyaxe wrote:All the examples given here are based arround mundane technologies, comparing the primitive to the early industrial age. What we are discussing in the forums is technology so advanced it may very well harness the same underlying principles as magic. So instead of invoking words and movement to create a fireball technology could tap into the very fabric of what makes creating a fireball, magically, possible. If this technology can do this then it is indistinguishable from magic and would produce the same effect. Thus allowing a sufficiently advanced technology the potential to inflict magical damage to things which are typically immune to technology but vulnerable to magic, such as vampires.

The ONLY problem with your Scenario is thus: in the Palladium Game Settings, you have NO evidence whatsoever that this is the case.

In fact, Kevin and most Authors go to the lengths of writing "pseudoscience" into the descriptions of almost every Tech item that they create.......as opposed to their Magical and TW counterparts, which work "just because;" many TW Items which do the exact same "job" as their technical counterparts, for example, typically have the Weapon's shell, Runes, and Jewels on the outside.... and NOTHING (in the way of machinery) on the inside.

Suppose in a future book we have a race so technologically advanced that the foundations of their technology have tapped into the very essence of what makes magic, magic. Would not that technology be in fact indistinguishable form magic, if in fact is deploys the very same fundamentals. I agree with you there is no cannon on the subject, as such all discussions are subject to hersay and conjecture, but the thread which inspired this one was discussing a race so advanced their technology was indistinguishable form magic. Not just precieved as magic but truly mimiked, or employed magic in the technology. This quote was used as the foundation for this argument and may have in fact been misquoted, but was certainaly the inspiration for the discussion.

I know what the quote means, the discussion in the thread tok the quote one step further and hypothosized "what if" and made the technology so advanced it is magic.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

darkmax wrote:Ah! Now I remember.... Something like a glass Coke bottle that falls into the midst of a minimalist tribe.

That involves as little time travel as my example of the Conquistadores.

Sir Darkmax is making a reference to an old (but Cult Classic) movie called "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World." Pretty funny, it was, when the bottle flew around like a boomerang and put a smack down on one of the villagers' heads.....

Now gimme my damn Geek Points!!!

Misfit KotLD wrote:

darkmax wrote:Ah! Now I remember.... Something like a glass Coke bottle that falls into the midst of a minimalist tribe.

That involves as little time travel as my example of the Conquistadores.

Sir Darkmax is making a reference to an old (but Cult Classic) movie called "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World."
Pretty funny, it was, when the bottle flew around like a boomerang and put a smack down on one of the villagers' heads.....

Now gimme my damn Geek Points!!!

Greyaxe wrote:Suppose in a future book we have a race so technologically advanced that the foundations of their technology have tapped into the very essence of what makes magic, magic.

Here's where your argument breaks down. there is no reason to suppose such a thing, as it has no bearing on palladium books, or even real life.

Except that there is an implication that magic, given the advancement of the race, could be recreated (not just mimic and not utilized through TechnoWizardry).

Here's what I mean...ISP and PPE are supposedly very similar (I think source material compares them to sweet crude oil and gasoline, one refined and one available for many applications). We have already seen machines that have psychic or instill psychic abilities, so at some point there should be a recreation of magic through technology. Granted, this would be the most advanced of technologies, and would probably be so much more inefficient than just using a spell in the first place that it wouldn't be worth it to use it.

Well, I understand Nekira...she is saying that perception is not reality. You are saying that perception is all that matters and, that for all intents and purposes, is reality.

You both could be right.

I simply say that it should not be impossible to scientifically recreate magical effects...in fact, spell casting is scientific. Beyond that, I believe that Palladium's interpretation of magic doesn't prevent technological replication of magical effects using PPE.

shadrak wrote:Except that there is an implication that magic, given the advancement of the race, could be recreated (not just mimic and not utilized through TechnoWizardry).

No, i've read all the books thoughly. There was no such implication anywhere.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

shadrak wrote:Except that there is an implication that magic, given the advancement of the race, could be recreated (not just mimic and not utilized through TechnoWizardry).

No, i've read all the books thoughly. There was no such implication anywhere.

Nekira is correct.

There's nothing even close in the Books.

actually, I think, really think, that a LOT of the problem comes from the people here suffering from the "cave man preception" syndrome.

We take a laser pistol back to the stone age. they'll think it's magic. they'll beleive it's magic, because they _can conceive of no other possible explination for it_. it's so tottally beyond their experiance and knowlage, it's the only possible thing they can grasp.

But us...we're different. we know the prinicples a laser pistol is found on, even if we don't have an actual laser pistol yet.

We don't have laser pistols, but we do know how a laser works.

we don't have giant fighting robots, but we DO have robots, and theoetically could get them to fight.

We don't have hand-sized rail guns, but we DO have rail guns.

We don't have anti-matter engines, but we do know how anti-matter produces energy and how to harness it for that purpose.

we don't have interstellar spacecraft, but we DO have spacecraft.

For much of what's in phase world, even though we don't actually HAVE IT yet, we DO understand the fundamental principles underlying it. that's why we don't think of it as magic, but a cave man would certaintly consider all of the above magic.

But the first...the first are to us what we are to cave men. They invented something so far beyond our understanding...the only explination we have is magic.

I mean...I say it's technology, on an intelletual level. that dosn't mean I have any clue in hell how it DOES do all it does WITHOUT being magical.

But, that does NOT mean it's magical. only that I don't understand it.

darkmax wrote:Isn't that what I'm saying?! Please don't doubt my level of command for English, even though I am no Caucasian, American, European or Australian.

I figured you were Canadain

Look, I explained the implication pretty well. It is an implication, not an explicit statement....it is simply a logical extraction...if you can't understand that, then we are at an impass.

And here is your more explicit statement (unfortunately, no longer canon): MANHUNTER: Rifts are opened technologically..

Futher implication: Phase Magic is MAGIC. It is reproduced technologically. The implication is that a significantly advanced race would be able to do the same with another form of magic.

And, as I said, it is a logical implication. If Palladium says no, it says no. There are plenty of things in Rifts that aren't logical, and the inability of technology to manipulate magical forces may be one of them.

My issue is that Palladium itself has muddied the water...if Psychic abilities can be instilled within a person by altering their genetic makeup or by implanting a machine, or if a machine can grant psychic abilities at all, this leaves the question of magic and technology wide open.

Why is that? Because palladium has not seperated magic and psionics enough. Palladium has defined ISP as a refined version of PPE. In my opinion, if magic is truely magic, they should be better seperated or there should be a better explanation of their interaction. ISP and PPE cannot be the same and ISP cannot be a "refined form of PPE". If it is, what prevents technology from refining PPE into ISP and then using it to accomplish what are already written as technologically induced feats.

shadrak wrote:Look, I explained the implication pretty well. It is an implication, not an explicit statement....it is simply a logical extraction...if you can't understand that, then we are at an impass.

And here is your more explicit statement (unfortunately, no longer canon): MANHUNTER: Rifts are opened technologically..

Futher implication: Phase Magic is MAGIC. It is reproduced technologically. The implication is that a significantly advanced race would be able to do the same with another form of magic.

And, as I said, it is a logical implication. If Palladium says no, it says no. There are plenty of things in Rifts that aren't logical, and the inability of technology to manipulate magical forces may be one of them.

Can't let you get away with this "under the radar."

It is NEVER called "Phase Magic;" the collective series of Energies to bear the name are called Phase POWERS; furthermore, following Kev and Co's usual modus operandi regarding the fantastic but still Tech-Based, the Author uses pseudoscience to explain how it works (partially out of phase with the Dimension it is in) when these components are assembled into Phase Machinery.

Nothing whatsoever to even imply that Phase Tech is anything but SuperScience.

I see...ok...I was wrong on that one, they are psychic in nature...

Still does not fix the fact that Palladium has linked psychic abilities to magic.

ISP cannot be considered a derivitive of PPE if Magical abilities are to remain uneffected by technology.

shadrak wrote:I see...ok...I was wrong on that one, they are psychic in nature...

Still does not fix the fact that Palladium has linked psychic abilities to magic.

ISP cannot be considered a derivitive of PPE if Magical abilities are to remain uneffected by technology.

Sir shadrak, I personally have NO problem whatsoever calling Phase Powers at least partially Psionic in nature....

shadrak wrote:I see...ok...I was wrong on that one, they are psychic in nature...

Still does not fix the fact that Palladium has linked psychic abilities to magic.

ISP cannot be considered a derivitive of PPE if Magical abilities are to remain uneffected by technology.

Sure ya can. Once it's ISP, it's not magic anymore. pure and simple.

Which would work, except certain groups can use ISP to to fuel PPE...now, if that class reclasses as a Gizmoteer, this power could be instilled in a machine.

shadrak wrote:Which would work, except certain groups can use ISP to to fuel PPE...now, if that class reclasses as a Gizmoteer, this power could be instilled in a machine.

Well, the only problem in your logic is simply because something can be paranormally transformed from one to the other, dosn't mean that they're the same thing.

I can magically turn lead into gold. that mean led is the same thing as gold?

shadrak wrote:My issue is that Palladium itself has muddied the water...if Psychic abilities can be instilled within a person by altering their genetic makeup or by implanting a machine, or if a machine can grant psychic abilities at all, this leaves the question of magic and technology wide open.

Why is that? Because palladium has not seperated magic and psionics enough. Palladium has defined ISP as a refined version of PPE. In my opinion, if magic is truely magic, they should be better seperated or there should be a better explanation of their interaction. ISP and PPE cannot be the same and ISP cannot be a "refined form of PPE". If it is, what prevents technology from refining PPE into ISP and then using it to accomplish what are already written as technologically induced feats.

Psionics are a supernatural natural power that exists within natural beings.
Science cannot affect psionics directly, but it CAN affect the human (or animal) brain, and that brain can affect psionics.
Or rather, science can affect the brain, and the brain affects the mind, and the mind controls/affects psionic powers.
This is why non-living computers and robots don't get psionics; you can't scientifically create psionic powers where the potential doesn't already exist.

There are no scientific devices that can utilize ISP in any way, much less turn it into PPE.

I still think palladium has too closely related them if magic is to be magic. Either that, or it has allowed technology to manipulate psychic ability too easily.

shadrak wrote:I still think palladium has too closely related them if magic is to be magic. Either that, or it has allowed technology to manipulate psychic ability too easily.

I don't see how in either case.

darkmax wrote:Both. In the game, CS has been medically experimenting with MOMs, and so has the rest of the D-Bee communities.

MOMs are medical science in the extreme.

Right.
But that isn't Science studying or creating Psionics.
That's just science studying or creating Psychics.

They could do the same thing with magic, at least as far as studying goes.
The police and military could hire mages. They could hook mages up to various instruments and measure their heart rate, etc. etc. etc. while the mage is casting a spell.
But it's won't tell them how magic works, just like it doesn't tell how psionics works (or, in the real world, IF it works).

As for MOM implants, I already addressed that.

Normally I would agree, except that there are psychic detectors that are purely technological--and the fluff text imply they operate more like a detect psychic power rather than a DNA scan. Plus we have items like Arthuu's sword.

darkmax wrote:I seem to remember there is a psionic-based supernatural being in the book of Psycape. Am I right?

Psionic is science-based, in the real world that is, or so everyone wants to believe.

Magic is, well.... paranormal-based, it is everything science cannot find an answer to.

Doesn't the term supernatural then applies to both of these?

In a matter of speaking.

His/its name is Psynex, and despite the fact that it is an Alien Intelligence, it is NEVER described in terms other than a "...being of pure Psionic Energy."

SIDE NOTE: I'd really wished that they'd given Psynex stats. Him and the Tiklik and Tikilik enitities in Rifts: Australia.

darkmax wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Right.
But that isn't Science studying or creating Psionics.
That's just science studying or creating Psychics.

They could do the same thing with magic, at least as far as studying goes.
The police and military could hire mages. They could hook mages up to various instruments and measure their heart rate, etc. etc. etc. while the mage is casting a spell.
But it's won't tell them how magic works, just like it doesn't tell how psionics works (or, in the real world, IF it works).

As for MOM implants, I already addressed that.

Oops. The thing is, they create a psychic, though not without the side-effects. However, they cannot create a magic-user.

Without a good understanding of the working of the brain, how can one create pyshics? That in itself is a science.

Psionic powers are affected by the physical aspects of the brain.
Magic is affected directly by the mind.
Science can tamper with the physical aspects of the brain, but it cannot currently directly affect the mind.

darkmax wrote:I seem to remember there is a psionic-based supernatural being in the book of Psycape. Am I right?

yes, and no. There are supernatural beings that are strongly psychic, but it is not their psychic nature that makes them supernatural.

heck, there's over a thousand supernatural beings in palladium with psionics. it really dosn't mean anything.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

darkmax wrote:I seem to remember there is a psionic-based supernatural being in the book of Psycape. Am I right?

yes, and no. There are supernatural beings that are strongly psychic, but it is not their psychic nature that makes them supernatural.

heck, there's over a thousand supernatural beings in palladium with psionics. it really dosn't mean anything.

Agreed.

in the 'Palladium Terminology Project,' Cornholio wrote:Three Powers, The, n.
The Three Basic Fundamental "Forces" in the Palladium Books Game Setting.

• Technology, which is the easiest to mass-produce but which is constrained by the Laws of Physics;
• Psionics, which is often genetic in nature but whoch can also be instilled by Technology into Living Beings and/or partially duplicated by Technology, but which contains a Supernatural component in its nature, which can in some cases directly or indirectly influence Magic;
  
  and
  
• Magic, the most potentially powerful of the Three Forces, which is by far the hardest Power to mass-produce but which usually ignores the Laws of Physics and which can usually only be directly altered, influenced, or negated by other Magical Force.