Best Way To Use A Diabolist and a Summoner

[Aaryq]

Hey guys. I'm a poor bum with a million Rifts books, a bunch of other assorted books but no PFRPG Books. At one point I had the core book, but when I moved from ND to CA, I gave my PFRPG book to my buddy to keep the gaming alive.
Ahem. That said, I don't have the PFRPG book, but I do have memories. And since I've played and GM'd PF and no one has EVER played either class, I just don't know their worth. *EDIT* I've also heard a lot of rave reviews of each class. Since I can't finally make up my mind until I roll them up, I need your input on why they rock...If you don't think they rock (and with no offense intended), please disregard this post.
Diabolists can defend quite well, putting wards on things, but how the hay do they work on the offensive.

Summoners can defend quite well with all of their protection circles, but aside from summoning beasties and creatures, how the hay do they work on the offensive.

HELP!

[Aaryq]

Que??

[Xynar]

Diabolists can lay wards like mines. Summoners.... well they can still use a sword. They aren't offensive in a pinch. They both make great strategist type characters. You have to plan ahead of time for everything you do.

[Starmage21]

As a summoner, learn to use a bow or figure some way to make a Circle of Power portable. When you send in the demon, assist with the bow(or melee if youre really fanatical; summoners dont use their PPE much in combat, so they can basically wear any armor), or get out your portable power circle and start blasting.

[Veknironth]

Well, first let me congratulate you on moving from ND to CA. That's a good choice. Now, on to the topic.

I have never used a Diabolist nor a Summoner. Many people will tell you all the good things these classed can do. They are all right. However, the reason you don't see them that much is they are essentially defensive. That just doesn't work well with the average adventure. Most adventures are where the characters are exploring something, aggressing something, or otherwise on someone else's turf. That makes it very tough to set up defenses. You almost have to find a way for the character to be effective if you're a GM.

Summoners can be very offensive with their monsters and it's also great if something is out of control. However, you end up never playing the character, you really are just playing a series of NPC's. That can certainly be cool, especially if you have a wide variety of things you can summon.

Bottom line is most campaigns/adventures are designed to be very aggresive and explorative by the PC's. This is just not the forte of the Summoner or the Diabolist and I think that's why you see so few of them in games.

-Vek
"Soon Goliath Strongarm will catch wind of this and will absolutely go off about how good the Diabolist is."

[Goliath Strongarm]

Well, first let me congratulate you on moving from ND to CA. That's a good choice.

As a native of Southern California (and oh, how I miss it!!!), I have to extend the congrats, and add "wise choice!". Although cost of living is probably INSANE compared to what you're used to.

"Soon Goliath Strongarm will catch wind of this and will absolutely go off about how good the Diabolist is."

Now, Vek.. I don't know how to take that. So, I'll let it slide (for now). I mean, imo, the diabolist is about as perfect a class as the mind mage is overpowered, in YOUR opinion... well.. ok, I think the MM is overpowered too...

But, onto the discussion...

Summoners- useful. Extremely. As long as you have HOURS and HOURS to prepare, in that one spot, and not going anywhere. Can prot circle like crazy, can summon plenty of things, etc etc etc. Nice class, but not exactly 'adventurer friendly'. Better designed as an NPC.

Diabolist- wonderful. A few hours down time is all that is really ever needed, along with a few minutes ahead of the actual event. And, with careful advance planning, you can do PLENTY on the spur of the moment.

The 'few hours downtime' is for carving wards. Now, this can be done during guard duty. Or while everyone else is getting hammered in the tavern. Or while waiting for the merc to get done at the brothel. And, it doesn't have to be all at once. A few minutes here, a few minutes there. It all adds up.

One of the hardest things about diabolist is components. But, if you think CAREFULLY, these can still be gotten fairly easily (for most wards). Gold and silver- use coins. Pound them out, carve your ward. Or melt them down, make your wards. Blood- buy a few vials, keep them on hand. After combat, when you're bleeding, fill them up, put a wax stopper. Keeps the blood fresh for at least a little while. Wax- most people don't stop and think about it, but, when a candle burns, you end up with a pile of wax, right? Use over and over and over again. Or, heck, do like I did once- buy a candle, pull the wick out (CAREFULLY), and then cut off a slice from the candle, carve your ward. Convenient and easy.

Now, the next thing- combat. Unless you play a race that is strong and tough (troll, minotaur, etc), combat can be risky. Studded leather armour is your friend. Now, as odd as this may sound- if you don't have to worry about whats on the ground (IE, not a lot of rocks, broken glass, etc), and you're about to enter combat- take off a boot. You have to be touching a ward to empower it/force activate it. There's nothing that says what part of your body has to be touching it. Have a sheet ready, with certain wards attatched (area of effect+trigger+inflict+death is always a good one. Make sure that you have added true names for your party members, so you don't accidently kill them). Set it on the ground. Place your naked foot on it. Wait for the enemy to be in range, then force activate.

Not sure if you're being followed? Set an area effect+silent alarm. Now, proceed on down the road. Wait to see if it gets triggered. (note: this one employed on a heavily travelled road is useless, but great in a wilderness area).

Now, area of effect wards: there's been debate on this. Some people say that if you enter the area, your set it off. Others say that you still have to effect the ward, but then it will effect everyone in the area. Check with the GM to see how he thinks it. If he says that it's 'still have to trigger the ward' method, then use "area effect+trigger+area effect+inflict+ward effect". If he says its that by entering the area the ward is triggered, you want to go with something like "area effect+inflict+ward effect". Now, if you want, you can also use runes to do add a time delay, so that more people can enter into the area of effect. Of course, that also means people might also move OUT of the area.

Another sneaky, underhanded, deceitful thing to do is this: (best used if you know a large force is going to move through the area, with scouts just a little ways ahead. Numbers mean using a runic number).

Cover an area with overlapping fields of "#+area effect+inflict+death+trigger+#". The first of these should be a 2, with the last number in the sequence being a 3. The next wardset will be 3 &4, etc etc. Set the trigger point (about as far ahead of the others as you'd expect the scout to be) of "area effect+trigger+1".
There's a few different ways to set this up, but I'm going to give an example (if I can draw it on here). Using a lvl 1 diabolist, so area of effect is 10ft.


a)trigger point. b)first death ward c)second death ward. d)third death ward.


a)<9.5 feet>b)&c)<9.5feet>d)

a) reads: area of effect+trigger+1
b) reads: 1+area of effect+death+trigger 2
c) reads: 1+area of effect+death
d) reads: 2+area of effect+death

In this setup, when a) is disturbed, it will trigger wards b) & C). B will in turn trigger d. Building on this, you could cover an infinately large area with wards, all set to be triggered from somewhere else. If you REALLY wanna be sneaky, you can even have the initial trigger point to be wherever YOU are, and force activate it, in turn setting off the other wards.

Being a diabolist is easy, as long as you THINK before you do ANYTHING.

[t0m]

Have a sheet ready, with certain wards attatched (area of effect+trigger+inflict+death is always a good one. Make sure that you have added true names for your party members, so you don't accidently kill them). Set it on the ground. Place your naked foot on it. Wait for the enemy to be in range, then force activate.

I had a diabolist who carried a 'spellbook' with premade wards which he would rip out and activate in a similar manner (with his fingerless leather gloves). most wards were simply painted on the pages with whatever components, reduced to dust and mixed with a binder like glue or wax. it worked great as long as he had a fighter close at hand in melee watching his back, and time to prep. running into battle and saying "i pull out my book" while the rest of the party pulls out swords and bows is kinda funny feeling though

another cool thing about diabolistry is the permanance ward. according to the rule book (and referenced in a few adventures in other books) a perm ward will make any magic permanent (including spells, circles etc). if you ever fight a demon or deevil (doesnt specifiy if they must be greater or not so i assume a lesser will work) you should be able to get enough bone out of it to make a few perm wards for later (much easier than dragon or god bones imo). if your character is a little crazy/willing to sew a piece of a demon into his own flesh you can get a permanent protection bonus for a lot of things, perm+knowledge pretty much equals tounges and eyes of thoth etc etc.

[Library Ogre]

on the offensive...
summoners can command big nasty beasties with sharp pointy teeth to do their fighting for them. while diabolists would have to lure their opponents into a proverbial mine field as mentioned previously.

There's also force-activating area affect wards designed to ignore (or attack) certain alignments.

on the defensive...
i think everyone is aware that you should tread lightly when facing against a diabolist, keep your eyes peeled for them pesky rune mines. the diabolist doesn't even have to be anywhere near the combat to defend themselves. summoners with a good array of protection circles, good luck getting close to them, especially if they have already brought friends to the party.

Simple plan for a summoner: Put a sealed protection circle across the door of every entrance point to your private rooms. Very inexpensive, even if inlaid, and no one can get through without passing your save vs. circle.

on information gathering techniques...
well there should be no question that a character of either class should be able to squeeze any information out of whomever they want. how messy it gets would be up to their alignment though.

Generally, I give the benefit to summoners, here, if they can summon the right creatures and force them to help. Diabolists with a library, however, are formidible information sources.

on magic...
well you won't be blastimacating any orc hoards like a wizard or mind mage. but you can sure ruin their day with a few well placed rune bombs or that hoard of floopers you just summoned to invade their living space.

Given that a diabolist can use circles, I give the advantage to diabolists.

[Veknironth]

Well, GS, you should take it as a compliment. I was expecting you to write just such an insightful post. An idea I saw a diabolist do once was to put the premade wards on cards. Of course, a Diabolist with pre-made wards on cards is at a distinct advantage when waylaid by a wizard who is invisible and dropping lightning repeatedly.

As for the Mind God, I think it has been reduced in it's unfairness a bit by the rule allowing mages to cast spells Levels 1-6 in one action.

-Vek
"Never trust a Mind Mage."

[kamikazzijoe]

One of my players has a shifter and summons monsters that break the campaign quite frequently. He summons grogons or elementals and suddenly the game has leap to an entire new level. His complaint, the monsters do everything and not him

[Library Ogre]

One of my players has a shifter and summons monsters that break the campaign quite frequently. He summons grogons or elementals and suddenly the game has leap to an entire new level. His complaint, the monsters do everything and not him

Around our house we call that a self-inflicted boo-boo.

[The Dark Elf]

diabolists are great at defense indeed - they have innurable wards to prevent them from harm (ie save vs magic, cold, fire, lighting, see invisible etc.). but these tend to only affect the diabolist. there offense is really only useful as traps which need time to prepare.

summoners need hours to prepare and circles arent that hard to save against (my summoner has only ever used one - except prot from elements to sleep in most nights). However in any situation defensive, offensive, startegy, stealth or whatever - if they have a powerful servant (and 2nd Ed. everything they can summon is powerful!) then they are awesome - they will do nothing but fire comands at their pet but they are a force to be reckoned with!
Ofc, if the summoned creature dies, they're royally screwed. but thats the fun of the OCC.

Both OCCs are very interesting to play, especially as PFRPG isnt a hack n slash RPG so the "best" meaning the toughest characters dont rule the playing field.

Ofc multiple OCCs mean you could have a bit of both.....

[Aaryq]

Zombie thread resurected for more input (not in CA anymore, stationed in NC...where there are no gamers I know of yet)

[Severite]

Where in NC? Im in Elizabeth City

[csbioborg]

I bet good money its lejune

[Aaryq]

Close but no cigar. Cherry Point

[Starmage21]

Its viable to do the diabolist paper trick with summoners too. Inscribe your circle on a large piece of thin leather(clothing quality leather), roll it up and take it with you until you need it!

[Aaryq]

Its viable to do the diabolist paper trick with summoners too. Inscribe your circle on a large piece of thin leather(clothing quality leather), roll it up and take it with you until you need it!

\

That sounds good...really good.

[Severite]

I dont know, how do you keep your components in place?

Ep, and yeah, 105 miles according to google

[runebeo]

Diabolist is all about preparation and with his skills he can rake in the cash in a town where someone can always in need of his brand of lasting magic. He's a skilled scholar as well as knowing some powerful arcane secrets, but in combat he's going to need backup and with his cash he should hire a good bodyguard and a few good guard dogs. You can also think of them as tomb raider type scholars able to read the ancient languages of many lost cultures. He was the abilities to lay down powerful landmines and traps with simple ink. This occupation can be useful for setting up a nice little business as back story.

I believe the Summoner is most powerful class in the game with some time to prepare with only the Witches and Necromancer coming close to his resources. This class has very powerful circles and control over powerful monsters, demons and even angels. Think about the power of controlling a angel at level 2 and angels can even raise the dead, bet that can bring in some cash. His weakness is in combat, but with powerful minions protecting him and fueling his circles he just has to stay away from the front line and act as a field marshal. Picking up a few levels of wizard along with his minions P.P.E. pool he has access too could be an extra bonus down the line, this is why Shifters are so poplar in Rifts. Same as I said for the Diabolist a few guard dogs could help out. One bad thing is most places will think of a summoner with the same hatred that is reversed for witches. More summoners should use angels, sure if they get loose you may pay for enslaving them, but you don't have to worry about people going missing or getting eaten.

[Starmage21]

I believe the Summoner is most powerful class in the game with some time to prepare with only the Witches and Necromancer coming close to his resources. This class has very powerful circles and control over powerful monsters, demons and even angels. Think about the power of controlling a angel at level 2 and angels can even raise the dead, bet that can bring in some cash. His weakness is in combat, but with powerful minions protecting him and fueling his circles he just has to stay away from the front line and act as a field marshal. Picking up a few levels of wizard along with his minions P.P.E. pool he has access too could be an extra bonus down the line, this is why Shifters are so poplar in Rifts. Same as I said for the Diabolist a few guard dogs could help out. One bad thing is most places will think of a summoner with the same hatred that is reversed for witches. More summoners should use angels, sure if they get loose you may pay for enslaving them, but you don't have to worry about people going missing or getting eaten.

All of the "spirits of light" (angels) presented in the pantheons book have huge Me scores. Unless your summoners have a 30ME, theyre not keeping angels for any length of time, if they manage to win the battle of wills at all.