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Hi there!

I am speaking on the behalf of countless "armed beggars"
form the 3 Galaxies.

1, Most ships, including civilian vehicles are equipped
with - defensive - weapons.
2, FTL ships can be detected from light years
3, Pirates are said to dwell in the 3Galaxies
in great number.

Yet, there is no rule for preventing a ship from
going FTL, neither pulling it out of FTL.

No details about going FTL outside a gravity well,
so can we just decide to "go forward 1000 kms with
FTL"? (This would greatly enhance the Berserker, since
they now do not need to fly over like 300 kms under
fire to unleash their cruise missiles on a capital ship, and
greatly inflate Phase Fighters...)

And finally, the only way to stop a ship is to blast off
the engines with called shots... Or..?
-------------------------------------------------------------

So, guidelines for CG drive:
1, Ships not in FTL can - and often do - generate an anti-FTL
field around themselves. This is usually allowed by authorities
except the most heavy traficked systems, when the authorities
themselves are operating their own fields as traffic control means.
This field is not a constant gravitiy field, more like a low powered,
but pulsating one, and it does:

a, negate ships going to FTL

b, pulls incoming ships from FTL

c, negates the "scrambling" ships's stealth if any

d, have a radius of sublight speed in M-s squared multiplied by
the ships lenght (or largest other dimension) in meters.
Multiply this by two in the case of military craft.
So, a Proctor fighter with its M10 speed and 24,4 meters
lenght have a warp scrambler radius of 4880 m (around 3 miles),
while a Protector class battleship's field radius is almost 200 km
(197,640 km) .A "typical runner ship", which is a souped-up
civilian vehicle can catch targets in 3050m radius...

e, Ships cannot scramble more than 100 times their
own mass. Maybe we can factor sublight speed here
(ie. the more powerfull engines, the more difficult to
pin the ship down) and maybe resistant drives.

f, for FTL interdiction, the attacker must manouver close
enought in FTL, and then activate a separate FTL drive/device
to pull the prey out of FTL (and if succeeds, also, drop out
fairly close). This separate unit is highly illegal for civilians,
thought a converted backup drive often passes inspections.

2, Tractor/repulsor beams anyone?

3, Going to FTL is just not a "flip of a switcht" - but requires
several actions... at least 2 for small, single seated craft
(plus navigation, which is also an action or two), and up to
a minute or so for battleships, carriers, dreads...

4, Intercepting P-drives....? Does CG "scramblers" work on them?

5, How it affects warfare? How battles will work?

6, What about Rift-drives? Does it make TW/magic ships
disadvantaged (or we allow spells like Time slip)?

Ideas, comments, critics?

Adios
KLM

Gadrin, I think you missed a point:

It is stated, that pirates are rather numerous in
the 3 galaxies. This means, that a rather large number
of ships are attacked... But how, if only the CCW (or other
major block) have something, that can pull a ship out of FTL?
----------------------------------

Another problem is, how precise is FTL?

Adios
KLM

Braden has in his PW Fleets of the three galaxies manuscript an very interesting and plausable explanation of how pirates attack ships. I think you will appreciate it, it does assume FTL is very precise.

On this note I have a theory about Rift Drives. They have no velocity or gravity wake to track. They simply disapear and reappear. I think most players and GM's in the PW setting are assuming gravity drives, but I really like Rift drives for that reason. they are also easier to navigate as you dont have to worry about obsticles, you simply jump from one location to the next. Making attacking a Rift drive impossible at FTL speeds as Rift Drives dont actually travel FTL they are stationary or moving STL until they jump to the next set of spacial coordinates. They do have a relativly limited range and are vulnerable at STL speeds until they are ready to jump agian though. Maybe this is when pirates strike.

gadrin wrote:

KLM wrote:Gadrin, I think you missed a point:

It is stated, that pirates are rather numerous in
the 3 galaxies. This means, that a rather large number
of ships are attacked... But how, if only the CCW (or other
major block) have something, that can pull a ship out of FTL?
----------------------------------

Another problem is, how precise is FTL?

Adios
KLM

pirates can use things like:
(...)
and so on. No two pirates will do everything the same, so ... My take is piracy happens but isn't like "black and white movies" where you just pull up alongside of other ships and blast away.

Ah well... Cosmos Knights yes, swashbuckling space opera
no...

how precise is FTL -- good enough to facilitate space travel, but not "pinpoint", I'd say that the average journey might suffer from some "corrections" in course by arriving within an AU. Meaning you're generally close enough to make up any discrepancies. You don't "pull up alongside of a satellite in geo-sync-orbit of Planet X" everytime.

You might feel differently.

"The astronomical unit (AU or au or a.u. or sometimes ua) is a unit of length nearly equal to the semi-major axis of Earth's orbit around the Sun. The currently accepted value of the AU is 149 597 870 691 ± 30 metres (about 150 million kilometres or 93 million miles)."

Compare that to the
- sublight speeds of the 3 galactic ships - an hour from Earth to Alpha centaury, then up to 6 days from entry point to the appointed station.

- amount of stuff in that slice of space (stuff like planets, asteroids...)

- military fleet movements... You mean the battlegroup
will arrive somewhere within 5 days range of the base
to be attacked?!

But at least it gives plenty of space for pirates

Adios
KLM

How do you interdict a ship going at FTL speeds? Simple, put something in its way! I'm sure the ships have some kind of deflector shield for dust and micro-meteorites and the like, so you got to put something big say a ship in the way. For FTL to work you have to have sensors that are faster so its likely that the mass ahead of the ship would be picked up in time for either a pilot to throttle back to normal sub-FTL speeds, or some kind of safety engages that shuts down the ship's FTL.

I'm also of the opinion that all PW ships needs to make frequent course correction because they can only go in a straight line. In a galaxy filled with stars and all kinds of stellar matter that's all but impossible. So you have to figure there are trade routes and on said routes are locations where ships come out of FTL to make a course correction. I would think these areas would be vulnerable too.

Carl

ya know, maybe rather than dragging people out of FTL for combat, they can simply fight WHILE going FTL.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:ya know, maybe rather than dragging people out of FTL for combat, they can simply fight WHILE going FTL.

Err... Let me toy with this idea.

So, a ship going FTL can open fire on another ship...
...hmmm.

This means very precise FTL travel, and this must include
a quite precise point of arrive. Hmm... Berserkers anyone?

I mean warp in, unleash those cruise missiles. Not much chance
for targets.

Adios
KLM

Hi there!

First of all, I am glad for all this attention. Really.

The point of this topic is to formulate a system that
fits for existing 3G starship designs, and maybe
provide a base for a tabletop or computer strategic
game (in our dreams ).

Also, if we have the rules, we can guess how battles
are fought.

Carl Gleba wrote:How do you interdict a ship going at FTL speeds? Simple, put something in its way! I'm sure the ships have some kind of deflector shield for dust and micro-meteorites and the like, so you got to put something big say a ship in the way. For FTL to work you have to have sensors that are faster so its likely that the mass ahead of the ship would be picked up in time for either a pilot to throttle back to normal sub-FTL speeds, or some kind of safety engages that shuts down the ship's FTL.

Shields: we have shields already. I mean MDC shields are
supposed to withstand the bombardment of particles while
going FTL - maybe in a dust cloud ships must decrease
their speed or risk shield depletion and/or hull damage.

To put a ship in the way... Space is big. Huge. I think we
all heard it several times. Now, to put a ship into another
ships way, we need very precise sensors and very precise
FTL....

I'm also of the opinion that all PW ships needs to make frequent course correction because they can only go in a straight line. In a galaxy filled with stars and all kinds of stellar matter that's all but impossible. So you have to figure there are trade routes and on said routes are locations where ships come out of FTL to make a course correction. I would think these areas would be vulnerable too.

Carl

...depending on how sensitive are those FTL anti-collision sensors.

To be continued...

Adios
KLM

..AFTER THE BREAK.

So... We have ships which can go only in straight
line in FTL*, and have proximity sensors.

Example:
The merchantman Prey is going from A to B. The
privateer vessel Predator is sitting on or near the
A-to-B route, and since she is not going FTL, is invisible
to the Prey. On the other hand, the Predator's
sensor do pick up the merchantman's FTL drive from several
light years.

The navigator do the math, and with right timing, the
privateer ship goes to FTL and drops just before the Prey.

Most of the time, she is close enough to engage the
target before it escapes, but not within collision range.

Ssssooo....

How precisely can arrive the incoming vessel?

What is the tipical range of those two ship when they drop
out of FTL?

How much time it takes to go to warp again? (IMO, not much)
How often a ship have to drop out FTL and adjust course?
d6 times per light year, depending on enviroment?

And finally... These numbers (or some other rule) must
prevent successfull warp-to-point attacks from Berserkers
or other futuristic torpedo boats - after all, these attacks
come with heavy (even for the TGE) casualty rate against
large ships. (If not, why bother building a Doombringer?)

Anyone?

Adios
KLM

(*) I do not find it neccessary for FTL to work "straight only"
but wth... We can live with craft going "only" at M10-15
(which is barely enough for LEO at top speed).

ps2: Tractor beams?

KLM wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:ya know, maybe rather than dragging people out of FTL for combat, they can simply fight WHILE going FTL.

Err... Let me toy with this idea.

So, a ship going FTL can open fire on another ship...
...hmmm.

This means very precise FTL travel, and this must include
a quite precise point of arrive. Hmm... Berserkers anyone?

I mean warp in, unleash those cruise missiles. Not much chance
for targets.

Adios
KLM

Not possible, the weapons are moving slower than the ships. You fire a weapon and the laser, missile or particle beam gets left behind. Unless you get really close and touch FTL fields. In which case I wouldn't be firing cruise missiles.

Hi there!

Greyaxe wrote: Not possible, the weapons are moving slower than the ships. You fire a weapon and the laser, missile or particle beam gets left behind. Unless you get really close and touch FTL fields. In which case I wouldn't be firing cruise missiles.

Well... Judging from the communication section
it is possible to create a FTL radio or laser.

Same for FTL missiles.

Heck, same for anything we find dramatically appropriate,
we can insert a sufficient "scientific" explanation.

Adios
KLM

Greyaxe wrote:Not possible, the weapons are moving slower than the ships. You fire a weapon and the laser, missile or particle beam gets left behind. Unless you get really close and touch FTL fields. In which case I wouldn't be firing cruise missiles.

I don't claim to be a physicist, but aren't all things relative? If I'm traveling on a train going 60 mph and I fire a gun a train ahead of me wouldn't the velocity of the bullet be 60 mph, plus its own speed? <-- Yes its a very simple formula but I don't like to over complicate my games by getting out the graphing calculator and slide ruler

I guess I watched to much star trek because I like the high warp speed battles. I don't see why a faster ship couldn't come up to our little merchantman and do enough damage to knock it back to sub-light.

Carl

True but its not cannon. Unless the 3G stop using Hi Lasers and particle beams (missiles are even slower) FTL combat is extremly limited. Personally i think its cool to do eva's and space combat inside the FTL bubble.

Carl Gleba wrote:

Greyaxe wrote:Not possible, the weapons are moving slower than the ships. You fire a weapon and the laser, missile or particle beam gets left behind. Unless you get really close and touch FTL fields. In which case I wouldn't be firing cruise missiles.

I don't claim to be a physicist, but aren't all things relative? If I'm traveling on a train going 60 mph and I fire a gun a train ahead of me wouldn't the velocity of the bullet be 60 mph, plus its own speed? <-- Yes its a very simple formula but I don't like to over complicate my games by getting out the graphing calculator and slide ruler

I guess I watched to much star trek because I like the high warp speed battles. I don't see why a faster ship couldn't come up to our little merchantman and do enough damage to knock it back to sub-light.

Carl

No the weapon will fire in a straight line at the speed of light. FTL is substantially faster than light in phase world. That is why I created this thread some time ago.

viewtopic.php?t=65986.

Unlike a projectile weapon which may be affected by the inertia of the vessle, beam weapons are not realtive to the speed of the ship firing them.

Greyaxe wrote:

Carl Gleba wrote:

Greyaxe wrote:Not possible, the weapons are moving slower than the ships. You fire a weapon and the laser, missile or particle beam gets left behind. Unless you get really close and touch FTL fields. In which case I wouldn't be firing cruise missiles.

I don't claim to be a physicist, but aren't all things relative? If I'm traveling on a train going 60 mph and I fire a gun a train ahead of me wouldn't the velocity of the bullet be 60 mph, plus its own speed? <-- Yes its a very simple formula but I don't like to over complicate my games by getting out the graphing calculator and slide ruler

I guess I watched to much star trek because I like the high warp speed battles. I don't see why a faster ship couldn't come up to our little merchantman and do enough damage to knock it back to sub-light.

Carl

No the weapon will fire in a straight line at the speed of light. FTL is substantially faster than light in phase world. That is why I created this thread some time ago.

viewtopic.php?t=65986.

Unlike a projectile weapon which may be affected by the inertia of the vessle, beam weapons are not realtive to the speed of the ship firing them.

Well I don't fuss over things that aren't cannon at least in my games. Although if you have a specific reference in one of the Phase World books I'd like to see it. Its possible that it's something I glossed over.

Carl

I do not associate my PW game with ST in any way shape or form. I don't want it in my game. I have it that only a few weapons are able to act while the ships are in FTL.

Hi there!

There is not much in the PW books about how
space travel and fight works.

Some info about sublight sensors. Something vague
about detecting FTL ships.

Maybe the last, relevant info is something about
horrible losses during frigate swarms against
capital ships.

Then a rather detailed article about FTL communication.

And nothing else.
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Now, I would like a common ground (ie. rules
and general idea) how this is supposed to work.
I am not particularly interested in scientific
explanations - after all, sublight speeds are measured
in Mach-es... But it looks a bit taxing to determine
the Mach-number (ie. speed of sound) in vacuum.

But there are criteria:

1, simplicity. No calculators, slide rulers... Maybe
a table at most.

2, compatibility. I want to keep as much from already
"canon" ships as possible. Maybe adding a line or two
to existing stats.
Rules for CG, P and magic drives.

3, Balance. Like the Scorpion is the top interceptor,
Berserkers' swarms on capital ships are resulting in
pyrrhic victory at best (for the attackers), and so on.

4, Technobabble is way down on priority list - only
to be included when all the above is set.

Maybe even a Rifter article or a section in a DMB...
(..daydreaming )

Adios
KLM