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Hello,

I have been forced into a rather awkward position in our gaming club out here, and I wanted to get a wider perspective from gamers elsewhere on what I should do. (Maybe you have dealt with a similar problem.)

The RRVGG is a gaming club, we have our dues, we have our newsletter, and we have special events in addition to our usual game sessions. In addition to this though we have a series of steadfast laws and regulations we all abide by. Among these is the rule stating; NO drinking and NO illegal drug use. (Prescription? Okay, but only if it is prescribed to you.) Thus if you are drunk, high, or carrying these substances with you - you will be asked to leave immediately. (There are minors in the household, both gamers and bystanders, and we cannot permit these into their environment.)

I have learned through a reliable source (At the government level) that a member of the RRVGG has not only been buying illegal substances but has been using it as well. Judging by what we have observed around the gaming table; this person may have been under its influence during sessions as well - but there's no way of proving it for certain.

Given our rules, should we bar this person from participating in RRVGG sessions again? I mean, there's no way of proving that this person was under the influence of the drugs during the session. This person claims that they have been clean since - but has lied to us previously about such matters. (This person was confronted once previously in regards to the matter, but denied it.) Should we trust in this person and allow them to rejoin or not?

We have already held a vote and the majority of the group feels that this person should not be permitted to rejoin, one actually threatened to leave the group if this person returned considering the turmoil this all caused, but at the same rate I'm still hesitant.

What are your' thoughts?



Regards,

Edward A. May

I think you have answered your own question... this member violated the rules and the majority of other members thinks it best if that person leaves.

So, they should be asked to go, and should be told exactly WHY it is that they are being asked to leave.

But maybe you could split the difference: give this person a 6 month suspension. they can come back if they want six months from now, but another violation of this kind will result in a permanent banning.

It happens on the message board all the time.

I would go with a suspension or probation if this were the first time infraction, but having a history of lying and what-not... I would give the person the boot.

I gotta go with my gut on this and just say keep them out ...

If they have violated the rules in the past and your club has no second chance clause don't give them one. Further more if there is a chance that letting them back in will cause a member who has abides by the rules of the club as they are I definitely wouldn't consider it.

I would tell the person, look I'm sorry but you violated our rules and only a unanimous descision by current members can get you back in and unfortunately some members don't want to give you another chance (insert suspension time info here if you go that way) after that ask again and we will vote on it and I'll tell you what the results are.

i agree with everyone... if this guy is already a problem then kick him out... why would you want to let one guy in if you are going to lose another ya know? and how do you know that no one else is going to leave after he rejoins..

Call this devils advocate - How is this person's behavior at the gaming table? If it is appropriate, then what happens in this person’s life outside your club is really no one's business.

Now I think I understand your dilemma, you probably don't want this person coming to your house while stoned/drunk. However since you can't make this person pee in a cup at the door, what else can you do?

I'd suggest you have a one on one with this person express your concerns and talk about it, express that it’s not personal and that you have to look out for the well being of the others.

Sorry man, hope you work this out.

Carl

Kinda echo what Carl said - what exactly do your rules say? That a person can't ever do drugs and whatnot while a member of your group or just "at the table" so to speak?

If its the former and can't prove it, or the latter and can't prove it then you're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place.

If you kick him out, and it proves later that the allegations are false, then what?

Don't get me wrong, I have kids and wouldn't tolerate this for a second. Kick him out.

See Below!

Becareful of what you rule on this case. If he is kicked with out solid evidence and just on hear say, then you set a precedent for anyone to say anything to get a member they don't like kicked out. Slippery slope my friend.

I agree with wolfe as a parent I would be highly pissed and would not let my children come over any more. So ask yourself a question is it better to lose one person or half or more of the minors?

I have A.....Hey! Ball!!!

Yeah, this is a very touchy subject for sure..

Like a few others stated, if you have minors in the group you need to be very careful. Not being a parent, I do not have a view from that side of things. But I have worked closely with many youth groups in my life time. You have to look after the minors first.

I know you said you have no proof and you cant make a blanket statement and say get out...But you may need to take the person aside tell him what you have heard and explaine to him what actions you need to take and why. He may not like it, but you have tell why you need to do it.

Then give him time, if the information you have goes away or you see proof of a change, then invite him back..

That is the way I look at it, its a tough situation to be in. I hope you make out ok with it.

Regards

The person has lied about such matters before and claims to be clean since being observed under the influence at the game table.

I am not sure what is unclear here.

lather wrote:The person has lied about such matters before and claims to be clean since being observed under the influence at the game table.

I am not sure what is unclear here.

We all know what needs to be done here, the issue is how one goes about doing it.. thats the touchy subject I think.

Regards

Shotgun_Jolly wrote:

lather wrote:The person has lied about such matters before and claims to be clean since being observed under the influence at the game table.

I am not sure what is unclear here.

We all know what needs to be done here, the issue is how one goes about doing it.. thats the touchy subject I think.

Regards

Got it.

I wonder what their rules say about informing people of decisions.

Carl Gleba wrote:Call this devils advocate - How is this person's behavior at the gaming table? If it is appropriate, then what happens in this person’s life outside your club is really no one's business.

Now I think I understand your dilemma, you probably don't want this person coming to your house while stoned/drunk. However since you can't make this person pee in a cup at the door, what else can you do?

I'd suggest you have a one on one with this person express your concerns and talk about it, express that it’s not personal and that you have to look out for the well being of the others.

Sorry man, hope you work this out.

Carl

As Mr. Gleba has stated; is this person a complete raving moron when he/she shows up? Are they USING said substances IN the household?
If no to both...really, what buisness is it of yours?
As long as they partake OUTSIDE of the game-club environment, and are not using / selling on the premisis, that is their right. Especialy if their behaviour is not disruptive or negative, why should it matter if they 'grease their wheels' prior to game?

IF however they are sneaking the substances past the front door and using on-site, then by all means turf their butts out the door and change the locks. THAT is YOUR right. Just remember what you said 'No drugs or alcohol use IN the house'. To enforce this rule to people in their OWN homes, outisde of the location that the club meets, smacks of fascism of G.W. Bush level proprtions (or even J. Edgar Hover).

Thank you... rant ends

P.S.; I do not condone the use of alcohol or drugs, but neither do I condem it. I refuse to use 'recreational drugs' (for many medical and ethical reasons), and alcohol use is kept to a minimum for special events (no kids, so it's a moot point).

It took longer than I thought for the fascism of President George W. Bush to pop up.

SirTenzan wrote:
This person often appeared very strung out and exhausted, puffy eyed, and often put their head down on the table or failed to pay attention so that things had to be repeated. When this person wasn't this way, it was quite the opposite, bouncing around, perpetually twirling their hair, was jumpy, or otherwise agitated. Attention was still an issue then though, because they were always preoccupied with something else, whether playing with this dice, or doodling, or was up and messing with our pets, or engaged in an animated side conversation, or was paging through a book.

It was during one of these modes that this person was questioned on whether or not they were under the influence. This question was denied, as I said previously.

After the fact it was confirmed that this person was buying and using drugs, so it seemed to confirm that they were under its influences during game sessions.

Edward A. May

I believe every gaming group experiences attention deficit disorder at some point whether it be by the result of using or just going off into ones own direction, doodling, over-exhausted, etc.(As I tend to do every once in while)

My guess is everybody is assuming this is going on because of the way he's acting. Until you have something concrete just kicking this person can be very damaging to the gaming environment, not to mention the individual so named. Maybe gaming is a way to escape reality and addiction for this person. It also should stated that drugs/alcohol/substances can remain in the body for a time and the symtoms can still be observed. Some people who game sometimes can't really focus because of a forthnights partying and resulting hangover.

I can also understand the parents concern and can't speak for all, but it is unavoidable not to have children exposed to people with addictions, disablities, or just ecentric in this day. One can only hope to better educate the child about these situations and how to deal with them.

My opionion is to talk to the individual the next gaming session about his behaviours and how its affecting the group, but not in an accusing fashion.

On a side note; I'm usually not this mature

While although I agree that it is good to educate your children about the dangers drug abuse if you tell a parent that they need to educate their children the you are going to have very angry parents and they will more than likely involve the cops and u do not want cops showing up at your house while the person with the drugs is there because then you are responseable.

kevinslkt wrote:On a side note; I'm usually not this mature

Whether that is true or not, I don't know but your maturity in regards to this matter definitely shows, I think thi sis one of the most objected well thought and presented in this thread

I can't be objective on this I have 4 kids and I wouldn't even be questioning this, the guy wouldn't be back in home rumor or fact but like I said I can't be objective about as a father of 4, however, this is also dependent upon the source of the rumor and the appearance at the table. I'm not gonna just believe hear say automatically, I'm going to draw my own conclusions as to whether he is using or not, as I believe the original poster of this thread has and I believe the problem comes down to "More than one member, myself (referring to the poster here) included believe he is using and don't want to but feel we have no choice but to oust him" to me I saw the thread as a what should we do how do we do it kinda thing I could be wrong its happened before, thats just how I saw and how I feel about it, feel free to argue but little will change how I feel about illegal drugs (more lenient with alcohol but not around my kids occasionally at the table but in moderation and with the kids (or minors) elsewhere).

Chaos wrote:Whether that is true or not, I don't know but your maturity in regards to this matter definitely shows, I think thi sis one of the most objected well thought and presented in this thread

I can't be objective on this I have 4 kids and I wouldn't even be questioning this, the guy wouldn't be back in home rumor or fact but like I said I can't be objective about as a father of 4, however, this is also dependent upon the source of the rumor and the appearance at the table. I'm not gonna just believe hear say automatically, I'm going to draw my own conclusions as to whether he is using or not, as I believe the original poster of this thread has and I believe the problem comes down to "More than one member, myself (referring to the poster here) included believe he is using and don't want to but feel we have no choice but to oust him" to me I saw the thread as a what should we do how do we do it kinda thing I could be wrong its happened before, thats just how I saw and how I feel about it, feel free to argue but little will change how I feel about illegal drugs (more lenient with alcohol but not around my kids occasionally at the table but in moderation and with the kids (or minors) elsewhere).

This is has to be one of the most colourful posts ever.

lather wrote:

Chaos wrote:Whether that is true or not, I don't know but your maturity in regards to this matter definitely shows, I think thi sis one of the most objected well thought and presented in this thread

I can't be objective on this I have 4 kids and I wouldn't even be questioning this, the guy wouldn't be back in home rumor or fact but like I said I can't be objective about as a father of 4, however, this is also dependent upon the source of the rumor and the appearance at the table. I'm not gonna just believe hear say automatically, I'm going to draw my own conclusions as to whether he is using or not, as I believe the original poster of this thread has and I believe the problem comes down to "More than one member, myself (referring to the poster here) included believe he is using and don't want to but feel we have no choice but to oust him" to me I saw the thread as a what should we do how do we do it kinda thing I could be wrong its happened before, thats just how I saw and how I feel about it, feel free to argue but little will change how I feel about illegal drugs (more lenient with alcohol but not around my kids occasionally at the table but in moderation and with the kids (or minors) elsewhere).

This is has to be one of the most colourful posts ever.

I was eating Skittles while I was writing it glad you enjoyed it "Taste the Rainbow!" I can't believe I did that though it was unintentional lol

I Think these, and , are the only other colors of smileys I could have included up there, that I didn't, but I could easily find places for them

EDIT: I did it again I got finish this bag of Skittles off before things get out of hand

lather wrote::shock:

Just keeping you on your toes

(There are minors in the household, both gamers and bystanders, and we cannot permit these into their environment.)

Why are you permitting children into the game sessions?

The reason your situation is awkward is because you haven't actually decided why you have mixed children and adults together. You just mixed them together then this comes up and...OMG!

Why is it actually important to have children there? Have you weighed this up against his suspected drug use (umm, if your government source is so reliable, he would have been arrested by now, k?).

Your planning to kick him out cause 'somebody think of the children!', when the children aren't there cause of his choices, they are there because of your groups decision to mix them with adults.

So, does having children there come before suspected drug use?

It's okay to say yes. But before it was a dishonest judgement - you weighed him up against rules which are pointless if kids aren't there. It's your own descision (to bring kids in with adults) that you weigh him up against. Right now your hiding behind rules he might have broken, as if your group hadn't made a choice to mix adults and children. It's weighing up your choice against keeping him.

Noon wrote:

(There are minors in the household, both gamers and bystanders, and we cannot permit these into their environment.)

Why are you permitting children into the game sessions?

What is wrong with that?

I dont see the problem with letting children into the game sessions. If this person knew the rules before he started then it is his problem if he gets kicked out not the childrens.

Noon wrote:Why is it actually important to have children there? Have you weighed this up against his suspected drug use (umm, if your government source is so reliable, he would have been arrested by now, k?).

This isn't even a valid argument, my brother was a known user for years and never the police knew my family knew our friends knew everyone knew and he wasn't arrested the police have reason for doing things the way they do, a lot of times it doesn't make sense to people like us but it can lead to bigger arrest by letting people like my brother walk the streets rather than sit in jail. We can all see the logic of letting a user walk as long as you can follow him and shut down a supplier, I don't know the situation but it could well be a similar one to that.

As for your statements about children, I don't know where to start and have chosen to leave a few of my opinions out due to the fact you would find them very offensive and it might get me banned but I will just remind you of one thing and ask you a simple question.

If you shun children from games who's gonna be the next generation of players, I mean, the RPG appeals to kids around the age of 12-16 (from my experience as a shop owner) and if they don't play then many never will!

... and now for the question, and if the answer to this one is no, it explains exactly why you feel that way!

Do you have children?

Thats All,
Chaos
"Proud father of 2 gaming children, both under the age of 8!"

PS My other two Girls are age 10 months and 2 years they can't read yet but gimmie about 4-5 years and there will be 4 gaming children I am proud of and I wouldn't have it any other way!

Chaos wrote:

Noon wrote:Why is it actually important to have children there? Have you weighed this up against his suspected drug use (umm, if your government source is so reliable, he would have been arrested by now, k?).

This isn't even a valid argument, my brother was a known user for years and never the police knew my family knew our friends knew everyone knew and he wasn't arrested the police have reason for doing things the way they do, a lot of times it doesn't make sense to people like us but it can lead to bigger arrest by letting people like my brother walk the streets rather than sit in jail. We can all see the logic of letting a user walk as long as you can follow him and shut down a supplier, I don't know the situation but it could well be a similar one to that.

As for your statements about children, I don't know where to start and have chosen to leave a few of my opinions out due to the fact you would find them very offensive and it might get me banned but I will just remind you of one thing and ask you a simple question.

If you shun children from games who's gonna be the next generation of players, I mean, the RPG appeals to kids around the age of 12-16 (from my experience as a shop owner) and if they don't play then many never will!

... and now for the question, and if the answer to this one is no, it explains exactly why you feel that way!

Do you have children?

Thats All,
Chaos
"Proud father of 2 gaming children, both under the age of 8!"

PS My other two Girls are age 10 months and 2 years they can't read yet but gimmie about 4-5 years and there will be 4 gaming children I am proud of and I wouldn't have it any other way!

No kids here, but get the wee-nits gaming when they're young... at least it exercises the mind better than 99% of video games.

Started at age 10 m'self... and I'm all for younger gamers (Just; Parrents..NO CAFFEINE to them please..and keep the sugar to a minimum ), heck..it helped me with my pathelogical math-block. Nothing like calculating T.H.A.C.-0 on the fly to get ones internal calculator workin'

Hello everyone!

Thank you all so much for giving me your' input on this matter, I appreciate it, across both sides of the board.

I think I made a mistake in over simplifying our rules set regarding drug and alcohol use. NONE of us want to see a gamer show up at our table drunk or high, period, no ifs ands or buts about it. If you're hung over from drinking the night before - call us and tell us you won't be in. If you're doing drugs though, give us a call to submit your' resignation from the club, we don't want that kind of element in our club, in our session, in our campaign, and in the game location - which most of the time happens to be my household.

You may say; "That's none of your' business!" or "You're being a tyrant!" or even "Who are you to say what your' gamers can do away from the game session?"

Simple. My life changed on July 27th, 1997 in a way that made it impossible for me to permit that sort of individual into my household's doors, because on that day my wife gave birth to our daughter. Since then we've had another little one. THIS is our home. If someone calls and makes a tip saying, "The people in that house over there get together every week, and I think they're there doing drugs!" You know as well as I do that our hobby is one of the most misunderstood hobbies out there, and there are those that are scared of it, and are willing to try to put the nix on it even if it is by telling a little 'white' lie.

They show up at my door, do a UA test on us, true most of us are going to come back clean, but IF we have a member that isn't - it could get our whole place tossed, searching for illegal substances. They won't find anything at all, unless brought in by one of our players, but then we get to clean the mess up, without so much as an apology or anything from the law enforcement officials, who probably managed to break a thing or two in the process. PLUS, as if that's not enough, we could have Social Services breathing down our necks, and I know from other's experiences, that once you're on the SS's radar - you don't get off of it very easily even if the accuasation was false! I have one friend who had the finger pointed at her as having druggies over at her place. They did the UA test on her and her guests - because one of her guests showed up dirty, the good-ole Sturmstaffel (Social Services) tried not once, not twice, but THREE times to yank her kids away from her. All because of one anonymous tip.

We get together to game, have fun, and enjoy ourselves in the presense of others that appreciate our hobby. We shouldn't have to be put at risk because of one member's penchant for doing illegal substances, BUT that's the way our government works, and that's the way we've got to handle it. I'm not alone in making that decision either, when we voted on that rule, the vote was unanimous.

Besides all of that, we HAVE had experience in gaming with people who were under the influence - many many years ago. Back in 1994-1996 to be more precise. One of our gamers was a big drinker and a druggy to boot, and I'm not saying it to badmouth him, because when he wasn't doing those things he was a really nice guy. I played football with him in high school, we palled around at school, and even enjoyed gaming together - but when he did drugs or drank he was a poke and really managed to screw up the gaming experience for everyone involved.

During one session he was so drunk he actually dozed off at the table. When the GM came around to him, and asked him what he was planning to do, he announced in a slurred voice; "Ah slush 'em wuth mah sword!" Mind you we were at a bar scene talking to the bartender or a patron about some job that needed to be done. (Fortunately the GM was pretty quick on his toes, and just announced that he killed him, while scribbling nonsense on his notebook. The drunken fool grunted approvingly and promptly dozed back off.)

During another session he asked his wife to bring him a sandwich. To prove to all of us just how screwed up on whatever he was on, she brought him a package of pencils. He bit into it and broke two of the pencils within. Afterwards he looked at the package skeptically, then offered it back to her saying, "This sam-which needs lettuce!"

Anyway, so yes, we have seen that side of people at the gaming table.

AS for the current situation;

The player in question began attending sessions this past September. This person had played Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 previously and seemed very eager to try their hand at RIFTS.

Before this person began playing, we got to know them pretty well. This person had a history of using both marijuana and meth. They had just gotten out of treatment after having reached 18 years of age a month prior. We agreed to help this person stay clean but warned them that our rules do not permit someone to game while they are under the influence of alcohol and if this person chose to go back to drugs - don't bother coming back.)

Typically this person's behaviour was reasonably normal. Yes, they were hyper normally. Always happy and chatty and when things went bad for this person's character he'd laugh along with everyone else. (I'll never forget the time his Wolfen Quatoria picked up a bomb, had it blow up in it's hand - blowing it off - and then just saying; "Woah! That sucked!" We all got a good laugh out of it!)

In the tag end of December and in January though this person's behavior changed. They were either excessively hyper, bouncing off of the walls, fidgeting with this or that, talking a mile a minute, getting up to mess with this or that, OR they were strung out, falling asleep with bloodshot eyes, bags under their eyes, very lethargic, and always needed details repeated back to them.

I began to suspect drug use immediately but didn't jump on them or call an officer's meeting to decide on any course of action. Instead I approached them after the session and asked them to either tone it down a little so that we can get a little more accomplished or to get more rest before the session. (Warned twice, I should say, it wasn't both at the same time.)

On January 24th this person had a court date, one which their rehab case worker attended, for a minor in possession and a curfew violation from when they were still a minor.

During this court session the prosecutor wanted to do probation, routine UA tests, etc. As he suggested the UA test, this person, our gamer, blurted out to the court; "If they do the test, it won't come back clean, I used just two days ago."

In the end the judge wouldn't hear anything of the prosecutor's BS, which amazed me, instead he gave this person 16 hours of community service without probation or anything else.

After court this individual came over to my place to tell me the outcome of court. This person was ecstatic with the decision. Then this person went to the convenience store across the road, met up with someone who plays Magic the Gathering, then came back to retrieve their cards; literally saying "This day just keeps getting better and better!" No sooner had they walked out of my back door, however, but then this person's case worker knocked on my front door.

It was from them that I learned that this gamer had been using. The date this person stated that they used correllated with a scheduled game session they attended, and yes, we did observe the bizarre hyperactive behaviour on that date.

As for what to do about it though? For the time being this person remains suspended from gaming, possibly barred for life. I am going to propose a six month suspension from the club with concent to a surprise UA test, that would have to come out of their own pocket, sometime within their first few game sessions after their return. If they refuse the concent? They're out. If they decide not to come back? It's their own problem. If they fail the test? They're gone, and the police are notified to come out to verify the findings. Simple as that.

I don't know if the club members will go for this option however. As I said some gamers have refused to come back if the offender returns. We'll see what they say to all of this.

Thanks again for all of your' input!

Regards,

Edward A. May

I agree with your decisions 100% and wish you and your group only the best, thanks for sharing "The Rest of the Story" with us.

After knowing the rest, I can tell you for sure if I ever end up near your group I'd definitely be interested in joining a "Good, Clean and Fun" Gaming Club

Chaos wrote:

Noon wrote:Why is it actually important to have children there? Have you weighed this up against his suspected drug use (umm, if your government source is so reliable, he would have been arrested by now, k?).

This isn't even a valid argument, my brother was a known user for years and never the police knew my family knew our friends knew everyone knew and he wasn't arrested the police have reason for doing things the way they do, a lot of times it doesn't make sense to people like us but it can lead to bigger arrest by letting people like my brother walk the streets rather than sit in jail. We can all see the logic of letting a user walk as long as you can follow him and shut down a supplier, I don't know the situation but it could well be a similar one to that.

True. And thats an example of the police making a choice about how they apply the rules. Which is what I'm recommending here. And no, I'm not urging you judge in his favour, I'm simply urging that you judge (don't let your rules do your thinking for you).

If you shun children from games who's gonna be the next generation of players, I mean, the RPG appeals to kids around the age of 12-16 (from my experience as a shop owner) and if they don't play then many never will!

So this comes first, ahead of his lifestyle choices. I am not here to judge your choice - I'm only here saying you have to make a choice about what comes first. You don't need to justify your choice (unless your asking for my support of your choice, in which case you get it to a small degree)

... and now for the question, and if the answer to this one is no, it explains exactly why you feel that way!

Do you have children?

Yes. And what way do I feel, exactly?


What I've said is that the rules on drug use don't answer this question - that is why you feel it's an uncomfortable. If you really think about why you have kids there rather than just following orders/rules, it will stop being uncomfortable and you will find clarity and purpose.

Now if I'd decided to have children there, I'd punt him. Is that what you want to hear, so you don't have to make your own choice cause someone backs your following of the rules?

No, I'm not going to just tell you that so you don't have to think about your choice. I'm going to tell you what you should be thinking of, then leave you, as only you can make your own choice.

But no, you just read it as backing one side (the other side, in this case). Honestly, I try and support someone to make their own choice, by clarifying important elements to think about, and they just see it as an attack.

Well, it is an attack in a way, an attack on not making a choice & just following rules as if rules can do your thinking for you.

Well I mixed up Chaos and SirTenzan (easy to do when someone starts championing someone elses thread).

But it looks like SirTenzan has thought about it, deeper than just following the club rules. And I think if he still finds it uncomfortable, to keep thinking about it in that same vein.





Then kill the guy and take his stuff.






What?

Noon wrote:

Chaos wrote:

Noon wrote:Why is it actually important to have children there? Have you weighed this up against his suspected drug use (umm, if your government source is so reliable, he would have been arrested by now, k?).

This isn't even a valid argument, my brother was a known user for years and never the police knew my family knew our friends knew everyone knew and he wasn't arrested the police have reason for doing things the way they do, a lot of times it doesn't make sense to people like us but it can lead to bigger arrest by letting people like my brother walk the streets rather than sit in jail. We can all see the logic of letting a user walk as long as you can follow him and shut down a supplier, I don't know the situation but it could well be a similar one to that.

True. And thats an example of the police making a choice about how they apply the rules. Which is what I'm recommending here. And no, I'm not urging you judge in his favour, I'm simply urging that you judge (don't let your rules do your thinking for you).

If you shun children from games who's gonna be the next generation of players, I mean, the RPG appeals to kids around the age of 12-16 (from my experience as a shop owner) and if they don't play then many never will!

So this comes first, ahead of his lifestyle choices. I am not here to judge your choice - I'm only here saying you have to make a choice about what comes first. You don't need to justify your choice (unless your asking for my support of your choice, in which case you get it to a small degree)

... and now for the question, and if the answer to this one is no, it explains exactly why you feel that way!

Do you have children?

Yes. And what way do I feel, exactly?


What I've said is that the rules on drug use don't answer this question - that is why you feel it's an uncomfortable. If you really think about why you have kids there rather than just following orders/rules, it will stop being uncomfortable and you will find clarity and purpose.

Now if I'd decided to have children there, I'd punt him. Is that what you want to hear, so you don't have to make your own choice cause someone backs your following of the rules?

No, I'm not going to just tell you that so you don't have to think about your choice. I'm going to tell you what you should be thinking of, then leave you, as only you can make your own choice.

But no, you just read it as backing one side (the other side, in this case). Honestly, I try and support someone to make their own choice, by clarifying important elements to think about, and they just see it as an attack.

Well, it is an attack in a way, an attack on not making a choice & just following rules as if rules can do your thinking for you.

I apologize for my I realize I may have taken it a bit personal when you were just providing things that need to be considered, you are correct in that I took it as an attack when I clearly should have thought the scenario through, still in the end I come to the same conclusion and my opinion is unchanged but that is because I also play from my home and my children are here through it all and sometimes sitting in my lap (when they aren't we might drink a little but no one gets sloshed) and we have a similar unspoken rule that drug abuse in any form means you are never welcome in my home this is partly due to my ex-wife (and her friends) calling social services every other month try to take my daughter from me. I have only had to eject 2 in almost 5 years one was Jailed for trafficking and teh other was my brother who I personally knew was using and though he is welcome to visit while sober (he is probated and has come back clean for over a year now) he no longer games with us, he does invite us over to game with his group and sometimes we o but the whole thing has drove a wedge between and we are both tense when together, but hospitable.

I originally posted things that were much worse than what you see up there now, and I apologize for that as well I understand now that you were undeserving of some of my comments and most of my sarcasm. I am sorry for jumping to conclusions but my kids are the world to me and they will always come before a suspected or convicted criminal/ drug abuser no matter who they are as evident above. I hope my post didn't offend you to the point we can't shake hands and agree that it was just a horrible misunderstanding and thoughts opinions and suggestions got confused by me. I am truly sorry for attacking you it was unfounded and unnecessary, please for give me

Don't worry about confusing me with SirTenzan after reading this post you should have seen why I needed to hear it worded exactly as you did, though I still stand by my choice I think maybe I'm a little hypocritical with it, my past isn't as white as snow but I have been off drugs for nearly 10 years now and though only sober for about 6 months I have only drank maybe 5 or 6 times in the last 5 years. I avoid people who use because I know how easy it is to get drawn back into and I fear it, I really do fear it! I probably will till the day I die.

I was very opinionated up there when I didn't need to be and for that I also apologize to SirTenzan but it was my opinion and I have trouble keeping them inside me sometimes. I didn't intend to Champion the thread I just took it the wrong way and couldn't shake it, I went into Board Rage due to the way I took and just started hammering my keyboard not really thinking about what was posted just focusing on the part about children and minors. I must admit I didn't expect to hear that you had children, but thats was also because I misunderstood the purpose of your post! Congratulations on the little knee-biters, take care of them they are our futures and teh most precious gift we can have

I apologize for my actions ...

Lets put this misunderstanding behind us and get back to enjoying the community

*offers hand in a gesture of friendship*

You put standards of conduct in place for a reason to protect your selves and others. If somone can not abide by this then they should not be alowed to stay. Give them a suspension period if you want to give them another chance or the old tried and true 3 strikes rule but if its causing this much of a disruption then its better to loose one person as apposed to many more potentialy over this issue.

Oh, and I agree with most of the other people who posted.