Oh my god, they killed the Cap!

[Uncle Servo]

I stopped getting Marvel back in '94, after Dagger folded and I sent them a package hoping to get some work with them as a colorist. I received one of the most patronizing, condescending rejection letters I have ever seen (and I've seen a lot) -- saying that coloring by computer was nothing but a temporary fad and that Marvel had no plans what so ever to go that route. Just a few months later, Marvel bought Malibu/Ultraverse for their colorists. Coloring by computer was hailed as "the way of the future" and that Marvel was "dedicated" to improving the look of its books by using it.

The same guy singing the praises was the same guy who signed the rejection letter.

I couldn't care less about this (though it's strange to see it after the success of Marvel Ultimate Alliance)... wouldn't surprise me if they figured Cap was a Republican and were doing it as a protest to the situation in Iraq.





Well, okay... I do care a little bit. I did always like Cap as a character.

[Sir_Spirit]

Here's a link

Like I've said in other places, I don't think he'll stay that way.

[Uncle Servo]

Here's a link

Like I've said in other places, I don't think he'll stay that way.

It's Marvel -- dead characters just keep coming back up like a supermodel's lunch.

*ducks the flying tomatoes*

[Stattick]

*ducks the flying tomatoes*

Actually, that was flying tomato soup that had been in some super-model, but close enough.

[Sir_Spirit]

Do the words "Spoiler Warning" mean anything to you?

Next time you plan to ruin the story for those who haven't picked up their comics yet, perhaps a subject like "Captain America: SPOILER" might be more appropriate. We could see your subject and choose not to read the posts. As it is, the story was spoiled the moment I opened the HU message board page.

Thanks.

Johnny Chronic

Dude it's on CNN.
OH and BTW Christ dies, Vader is Lukes father, and the Titanic sinks...

[Uncle Servo]

Do the words "Spoiler Warning" mean anything to you?

Next time you plan to ruin the story for those who haven't picked up their comics yet, perhaps a subject like "Captain America: SPOILER" might be more appropriate. We could see your subject and choose not to read the posts. As it is, the story was spoiled the moment I opened the HU message board page.

Thanks.

Johnny Chronic

Dude it's on CNN.
OH and BTW Christ dies, Vader is Lukes father, and um, darn it, can't remember the last one...

The Titanic sinks.

[Chaos]

What else can I do

[9voltkilowatt]

Don't worry its not really him, its actually his twin brothers clone from a parellel dimension, who switched souls with Steve rodgers and came back from the future to take the bullet in his own place.


Thats more Marvel's style.

[znbrtn]

Don't worry its not really him, its actually his twin brothers clone from a parellel dimension, who switched souls with Steve rodgers and came back from the future to take the bullet in his own place.


Thats more Marvel's style.

the other possibility being that he was actually a skrull, of course. that's a popular one.

[The Baron of chaos]

Hmm they already did with wolverine. But as i saw aroudn they ar eplannign to do somethign on the line of Superman death. They already have a cyborg Cap Wannabe(bucky/winter soldier), A psycho vigilante Cap(Frank Castle), we only need the teenager cap and an afroamerican cap and we'll be ready for the great return.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Here's a link

Like I've said in other places, I don't think he'll stay that way.

It's Marvel -- dead characters just keep coming back up like a supermodel's lunch.

*ducks the flying tomatoes*

Well, especially that character, who had several replacements filling in for him supposedly over the years.

[Marrowlight]

Hmm they already did with wolverine. But as i saw aroudn they ar eplannign to do somethign on the line of Superman death. They already have a cyborg Cap Wannabe(bucky/winter soldier), A psycho vigilante Cap(Frank Castle), we only need the teenager cap and an afroamerican cap and we'll be ready for the great return.

uhm, falcon anyone?

[Sir_Spirit]

"Shocking event for Captain America"

See the difference? I can choose whether or not I want to click the link and read what the shocking event is. The OP took that choice away from me, and I think that's bad form.

Captain america shot dead at 66.

Comic hero, foe of Hitler assassinated by sniper

Want me to keep going?

[Prince Cherico]

How long does everybody think before he comes back? I'm betting three months...and I'm willing to bet three geek points

three months thats a little on the long side

[Aramanthus]

I know I'm mourning his passing! He has always been my favorite super hero.


According to things I've read on the links provided it has to wait until after another mini series comes out covering about a year following his "Supposed death!' I know a version of him will be back.

[Prince Cherico]

Marvel support group

Jean grey- Hello folks Im Jean grey AKA the phenex and Im here
to help you get used to comming back from the dead lets welcome
the newest member of our support group bucky.

Bucky- hi Im bucky I died back in world war two and was brainwashed
and turned into a super soliger by the russians, I recently got my
memory back and Im in the process of the paper work to get my
citazenship reinstated.

Beast- I know whats thats like brother the paper work required to
have your status changed from dead to alive is a pain

Jean grey- after the sixth time I just gave up on the paper work
these days I pay taxes when ever I feel like it I mean what are
the IRS going to do Kill me again?

Bucky- Recently I found out my former partner died

Jean grey- who was he?

Bucky- Captin america

Jean grey- I better get more chairs were going to have a new member
of our support group again.

[csyphrett]

Tom Brevoort did say the writers did not cooperate for Civil War, and that they did not have a registration act written up as a guide.

and then Brubaker who is writing Capt America and having to deal with this comes across as a little ticked off in interviews.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of these guys (maybe not Bendis or Millar) jumped ship and went somewhere else.
CES

[The Artist Formerly]

I was kind of figuring that they would have to do something drastic like this to Cap. He lead a failed revolt against the United States, he's guilty of treason. Killing him off for a while and then letting come back to save the US in a way that will allow him to be pardoned and returned to hero status is kind of what they need to do.

[Blight]

I was kind of figuring that they would have to do something drastic like this to Cap. He lead a failed revolt against the United States, he's guilty of treason. Killing him off for a while and then letting come back to save the US in a way that will allow him to be pardoned and returned to hero status is kind of what they need to do.

Man he helped a foreign power invade the U.S. Hey I'm all for our rights to stand up to our government if it strays to far from the path. Hell it's a constitutional right. But to bring a foreign power (an old enemy at that) into our borders. He was going to hang...

[Uncle Servo]

I just thought of something...

Remember how they brought the Red Skull back from the dead in the early/mid-90s? If you don't, Arnim Zola transferred the Skull's consciousness into a cloned body of Steve Rogers.

How much you want to bet that the 'clone' angle gets thrown in here?



EDIT: After having read over the posts detailing the whole 'failed coup attempt' scenario, then personally I'm glad Rogers got lead poisoning. That just seems so out of character from the Cap I remember... and if this was a not-so-sublte political commentary by Marvel, then I'm going to consider myself thankful I don't follow their drivel anymore.

[MASTERMIND]

In the words of Darth Vader, "NOOOOOOOOOooooooooooOOOOOOO!!!!"

[Stone Gargoyle]

Hmm they already did with wolverine. But as i saw aroudn they ar eplannign to do somethign on the line of Superman death. They already have a cyborg Cap Wannabe(bucky/winter soldier), A psycho vigilante Cap(Frank Castle), we only need the teenager cap and an afroamerican cap and we'll be ready for the great return.

uhm, falcon anyone?

Well, Rick Jones served as the good captain for a while, as did Nomad. I do not know the current status of USAgent or the black Bucky, but any of them fit the bill.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I just thought of something...

Remember how they brought the Red Skull back from the dead in the early/mid-90s? If you don't, Arnim Zola transferred the Skull's consciousness into a cloned body of Steve Rogers.

How much you want to bet that the 'clone' angle gets thrown in here?



EDIT: After having read over the posts detailing the whole 'failed coup attempt' scenario, then personally I'm glad Rogers got lead poisoning. That just seems so out of character from the Cap I remember... and if this was a not-so-sublte political commentary by Marvel, then I'm going to consider myself thankful I don't follow their drivel anymore.

The clone thing is likely. I don't follow any of it anymore either.

[Marrowlight]

Hmm they already did with wolverine. But as i saw aroudn they ar eplannign to do somethign on the line of Superman death. They already have a cyborg Cap Wannabe(bucky/winter soldier), A psycho vigilante Cap(Frank Castle), we only need the teenager cap and an afroamerican cap and we'll be ready for the great return.

uhm, falcon anyone?

Well, Rick Jones served as the good captain for a while, as did Nomad. I do not know the current status of USAgent or the black Bucky, but any of them fit the bill.

I meant as the Africanamerican Cap. Battlestar doesn't suit the bill.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Hmm they already did with wolverine. But as i saw aroudn they ar eplannign to do somethign on the line of Superman death. They already have a cyborg Cap Wannabe(bucky/winter soldier), A psycho vigilante Cap(Frank Castle), we only need the teenager cap and an afroamerican cap and we'll be ready for the great return.

uhm, falcon anyone?

Well, Rick Jones served as the good captain for a while, as did Nomad. I do not know the current status of USAgent or the black Bucky, but any of them fit the bill.

I meant as the Africanamerican Cap. Battlestar doesn't suit the bill.

No, but there have been substandard captains in the past.

[Marrowlight]

Are you actually wanting to argue about this? Or just going for some pc +1's?

[GhostKnight]

Sad and lame. I haven't bought Marvel for over 10 years.

[The Artist Formerly]

Can one of the mods trim Mastermind's post? It's a pain to try and read.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Are you actually wanting to argue about this? Or just going for some pc +1's?

Boredom, actually. Trying to killl time.

[Marrowlight]

Are you actually wanting to argue about this? Or just going for some pc +1's?

Boredom, actually. Trying to killl time.

We call that pc +1 around these parts.

[MASTERMIND]

Can one of the mods trim Mastermind's post? It's a pain to try and read.

Or ask me to (done). Or increase your resolution on your system. Or hold Ctrl and use the wheel on your mouse to resize it to work (easily changed back when done with the post). Any of those work.

[Uncle Servo]

Out of character... like when he told the government to stuff themselves and became The Captain?

You're of course referring to the Captain America No More storyline, where Rogers gives up the title, uniform and shield of Captain America rather than become a government agent?

Or like when he became disillusioned with the government and became Nomad?

As in the 4-issue stint when Rogers gives up the title, uniform and shield of Captain America after a thinly-disguised commentary on the Watergate scandal?

Or like when he was stripped of his citizenship and became the Ex-Patriot?.

Okay, so you kinda got me here. I don't know about this one as it was after I abandoned Marvel -- and about all I can find on it is the Comic Book Database entry for the "Ex-Patriot" variant cover on #450. This particular "Man Without A Country" storyline, like the original Nomad one, lasted four issues.

Cap's been doing this stuff since the '70s. The only difference between those times and now is that he kept the CA identity while simultaneously holding his stance against the actions of the government, hoping it would shock his friends and the public at large into reconsidering the registration.

In at least two of those three examples you gave, Rogers willingly relinquished his status as Captain America rather than follow the government on a course with which he disagreed. It seems to me that committing acts contrary to the government's agendas while holding the mantle of Captain America was a "line in the sand" that he would not dare cross.

The "only difference" you mentioned is indeed at the very core of the reason I say it's out of character for Rogers -- IMO it would have been far more in keeping with Rogers' established character for him to once again relinquish the title/uniform/shield before embarking on his 'resistance movement' and failed coup attempt.

[Marrowlight]

How many superheroes have died (and come back) recently? I remember, just in the ones I read, Superman and Spiderman did.

depends on your definition of recently. If you're tracing it all the way back to the death of Superman.....then a lot.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Are you actually wanting to argue about this? Or just going for some pc +1's?

Boredom, actually. Trying to killl time.

We call that pc +1 around these parts.

You can call it what you like. I used to have a discussion group in Yahoo!Groups and am in the habit of responding to posts and posting ideas, not just lurking and doing nothing.
That said, back to the discussion.

[Stone Gargoyle]

How many superheroes have died (and come back) recently? I remember, just in the ones I read, Superman and Spiderman did.

Costumes and their wearers change, but CA is one of the original Timely characters and so is one of their flagship characters. It is unlikely he will be gone long, even if Thor has to drag him back down from Valhalla.

[Lord_Dalgard]

Chello!

It is unlikely he will be gone long, even if Thor has to drag him back down from Valhalla.

I agree there...Cap is like THE iconic figure for Marvel. He's very much like Supes to DC or Spawn to Image. The only person who comes close in Marvel is Spidey. And I don't see either of them disappearing for long...

Tony

[MASTERMIND]

Agreed.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Dont worry they always do this
next month Cap will be back and the whole death thing would have never happaned

Yeah, they could always make it a dream sequence or an alternate timeline. Orsomething in his super serum could bring him back to life. Anything is possible.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Personally I like the Cap. Granted I like the Ultimates Cap alot better. He doesn't play games. lol

But I think "Normal" Cap will reappear in some fashion same as you guys do. No biggie. If not, you gotta wonder why there wasn't a bigger deal about it made when it happened or before.

Secondly and as a bit of an aside.... About the "SPOILER WARNING" Stuff.. guys get over it. If you're so abjectly phobic of learning things in this multimedial society these days that if you read it on a forums board before you read it in a comic, that it totally ruins your day? You need help.

I mean how many people subscribe to the comic that didn't know? Subscribers get their stuff before news stands. "Oh I pick mine up on the news stand every month!" Ok, well good for you. If finding out a day or two or a week before obliterates all your enjoyment, then you're holding such to too high a standard.

Sure.. some things wouldn't be as impressive if you knew them going in. The "Twist" of the Sixth Sense.... the "Twist" of the unusual suspects... but that's not this sort of thing. Even if it was, I won't hold myself or the entire web going population at ransom of your implied spoiler warnings just to pull the punch for you. It's silly. Then there's the people that get mad about stuff... MONTHS after the fact. About 3 months ago I saw someone on the Starwars RPG Site LITERLY Rail at someone for spilling the thing about Vader being Lukes father. That's 30 year old information and the guy was crying a river because there wasn't a spoiler warning on it.

If you want to live your life with your head in the sand. Stay off the net, don't turn on the TV and don't read news papers. Then when you pick up a new book or something you can be totally 100% in the black.

But don't complain if you go on the information superhighway and find information... on a .. *GASP* SUPER HERO... in... a FORUM.... about... SUPERHEROS!!! *GASP FAINT*

Don't go online if you don't want free information. Your right to ignorance stops when ever you step on the web. My right to information shouldn't be infringed because you don't want information. If you don't want it. Don't read. Go hide in the basement (( but one with out internet access))


(( As a note, this was NOT in any way aimed at any one person. It's my standard thoughts when people start whining about spoiler's and what not. ))

[The Baron of chaos]

I want to add a note. A story goodness, regardless of medium, should not be dependent ONLY on "twist" and "shocking surprises", if was the case, then why read or watch them a second time. Usual Suspects is not just about the "twist", sixth sense is not just about the final "twist", Captain America 25 is not just abouth the death of beloved superhero. No. A sotry should be judged, for good or bad, after reading it. I personally, watched sixth sense after i've heard and read of it many spoilers, and i liked it anyway. It was good story. also if you can suspend your beliefe reading and watching a story, then you cna edit out, temporary, what you know. After all there are only so many stories that can be told , 33 if i recall it correctly, is not what, but how. in cas eof comic , is it well drawn?, does it have a fitting atmosphere? are the thoughts of characters well expressed? are dialogues good? If the only reaosn tha tlead you read and enjoy a comic is that "twist" well , you're losing 80% of what make comic book worth of keeping. I've many comic whose onhly value was the "shocking twist" and once read, well now I use them to sustain my table.

[dragon_blaze_99]

Like the Baron of chaos it's about the story, as role players and DM's we should know that also everyone the the end of DC's Doomsday before the end and we all new superman would be back just like capA

[Uncle Servo]

Like the Baron of chaos it's about the story, as role players and DM's we should know that also everyone the the end of DC's Doomsday before the end and we all new superman would be back just like capA

Exactly... which is the reason I recommend HU to anyone wanting to write for comics. It gets you thinking less about "how cool would this be" and start thinking in a more literary sense -- about character development, story/plot, continuity, background information, the flow of combat, and other things that they might not have thought of otherwise.

I swear I've seen better writing from my own players than I have from Marvel/DC at times. Okay, a LOT of times.

And in things like Civil War, The Death of Superman, Emerald Twilight and others the "twists" are telegraphed a mile away. It's like watching a classic Disney movie -- you know it's going to have a happy ending, but you watch it anyway because you enjoy the path the movie takes to get there.

And on the Star Wars tangent... I remember watching the local news on the day RotJ opened in theatres. The anchorwoman looked me right in the eye (it seemed that way) and said "Vader IS Luke's father, Leia is Luke's sister, and the Empire has built another Death Star." I was surprised, yes, but I still enjoyed seeing the movie for the first time.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Dont worry they always do this
next month Cap will be back and the whole death thing would have never happaned

Yeah, they could always make it a dream sequence or an alternate timeline. Orsomething in his super serum could bring him back to life. Anything is possible.

thats what they will probible do. *grumbles with hatred of marvel*
i swear they need to stop doing this stupid crap, i used to love marvel

Oh, they'll definitely do something.
I used to make mine marvel, but it got too stupid as I aged and grew out of it.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Like the Baron of chaos it's about the story, as role players and DM's we should know that also everyone the the end of DC's Doomsday before the end and we all new superman would be back just like capA

Exactly... which is the reason I recommend HU to anyone wanting to write for comics. It gets you thinking less about "how cool would this be" and start thinking in a more literary sense -- about character development, story/plot, continuity, background information, the flow of combat, and other things that they might not have thought of otherwise.

I swear I've seen better writing from my own players than I have from Marvel/DC at times. Okay, a LOT of times.

And in things like Civil War, The Death of Superman, Emerald Twilight and others the "twists" are telegraphed a mile away. It's like watching a classic Disney movie -- you know it's going to have a happy ending, but you watch it anyway because you enjoy the path the movie takes to get there.

And on the Star Wars tangent... I remember watching the local news on the day RotJ opened in theatres. The anchorwoman looked me right in the eye (it seemed that way) and said "Vader IS Luke's father, Leia is Luke's sister, and the Empire has built another Death Star." I was surprised, yes, but I still enjoyed seeing the movie for the first time.

The writers have as big a problem with rehashed story lines as we do. The problem lies in keeping 40 year old material interesting to new users instead of doing what erik larsen does in his savage dragon comic book and actually letting characters die. He actually allows for a viable story line and not keep characters the same age for years on end. But he owns his characters, whereas the big companies want to continue to market theirs for the next 50 years in spite of the fact that characters like spidey will wind up being still in his 20s. Continuity and liscensing often have conflicting motives.

[Marrowlight]

Well, it helps if a company can stay in business. It's hard to kill Superman on the chance that Jimmy the Genius might generate as much revenue.

That's where Larsen gets a leg up on Marvel or DC. He's much cheaper to maintain.

[Uncle Servo]

The writers have as big a problem with rehashed story lines as we do. The problem lies in keeping 40 year old material interesting to new users instead of doing what erik larsen does in his savage dragon comic book and actually letting characters die. He actually allows for a viable story line and not keep characters the same age for years on end. But he owns his characters, whereas the big companies want to continue to market theirs for the next 50 years in spite of the fact that characters like spidey will wind up being still in his 20s. Continuity and liscensing often have conflicting motives.

Agreed -- and that is a very big problem at times. Different writers and/or editorial staffs want to take titles in different directions -- and not all of them are for the best.

I do like the fact that DC (at least at one point in time) weren't afraid to move storylines along by killing off/writing off characters -- such as with Wally West becoming the new Flash, Kyle Rainer becoming the new Green Lantern, Jason Todd/Tim Drake becoming the new Robin(s), etc. No they weren't the top-line characters, but at least it was an effort.

I was intrigued with the Marvel 2099 and Ultimates projects from Marvel as well, as they were at least attempting to address the 'freshness' issue... and I also like the way Marvel: Ultimate Alliance touches on that with the character uniforms.

Unfortunately, the corporate mentality at Marvel once again gets in the way of good storytelling. On the other hand, there is also something to be said for fan demand to keep the Clark Kents and Peter Parkers around. It is the reader base that keeps the bills paid, after all.

It's an uneasy balance to maintain, and a balance that ultimately fails to satisfy everyone no matter how they tip the scales.

[Uncle Servo]

I swear next thell change who Cap actually is no hes not (arrgh for the life of me i cant remember his real name) no now hes John Smith oh and yes weve brought back Bucky (remember him the annoying side kike)

I think they did the "John Smith" thing already in Captain America -- the Red Skull's real name is Johann Schmidt.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Well, it helps if a company can stay in business. It's hard to kill Superman on the chance that Jimmy the Genius might generate as much revenue.

That's where Larsen gets a leg up on Marvel or DC. He's much cheaper to maintain.

Well, image has a harder time getting their books out on time, also, due to each creator keeping their own schedule. With marvel's flock of artists, at least they have talent keeping the books going.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I swear next thell change who Cap actually is no hes not (arrgh for the life of me i cant remember his real name) no now hes John Smith oh and yes weve brought back Bucky (remember him the annoying side kike)

I think they did the "John Smith" thing already in Captain America -- the Red Skull's real name is Johann Schmidt.

There has actually been more than one Red Skull, also. They rotate the villains about as much as they do the heroes.

[Stone Gargoyle]

The writers have as big a problem with rehashed story lines as we do. The problem lies in keeping 40 year old material interesting to new users instead of doing what erik larsen does in his savage dragon comic book and actually letting characters die. He actually allows for a viable story line and not keep characters the same age for years on end. But he owns his characters, whereas the big companies want to continue to market theirs for the next 50 years in spite of the fact that characters like spidey will wind up being still in his 20s. Continuity and liscensing often have conflicting motives.

Agreed -- and that is a very big problem at times. Different writers and/or editorial staffs want to take titles in different directions -- and not all of them are for the best.

I do like the fact that DC (at least at one point in time) weren't afraid to move storylines along by killing off/writing off characters -- such as with Wally West becoming the new Flash, Kyle Rainer becoming the new Green Lantern, Jason Todd/Tim Drake becoming the new Robin(s), etc. No they weren't the top-line characters, but at least it was an effort.

I was intrigued with the Marvel 2099 and Ultimates projects from Marvel as well, as they were at least attempting to address the 'freshness' issue... and I also like the way Marvel: Ultimate Alliance touches on that with the character uniforms.

Unfortunately, the corporate mentality at Marvel once again gets in the way of good storytelling. On the other hand, there is also something to be said for fan demand to keep the Clark Kents and Peter Parkers around. It is the reader base that keeps the bills paid, after all.

It's an uneasy balance to maintain, and a balance that ultimately fails to satisfy everyone no matter how they tip the scales.

Yes, DC is trying to maintain a current stable by giving their heroes new identities and having new people take over the old mantles. But they are much older than Timely/Marvel and actually had a greater number of continuity problems resulting in multiple universes which were supposedly eliminated and merged in Crisis on IE, but they keep going back to that method when their stories go awry time and again.