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Page 300 of RUE limits what secondary skills can be taken. Do you like this rule and if not how would you do it differently. I would apply the same rules as the original rifts but with a minus 5 penalty to reflect the quality of the training

Helps cut down on the min-maxing.

I would have to look closer to see what I would change specifically. I will do that as soon as I get around playing Rifts.

Um, this wasn't new for R:UE. N&S, Splicers, BtS2 have similar charts and RMB limits (by OCC) what can be taken as secondary skills.

I would allow most physical skills to be taken as secondary skills with the exception of the hth skills and perhpas Boxing

demos606 wrote:Um, this wasn't new for R:UE. N&S, Splicers, BtS2 have similar charts and RMB limits (by OCC) what can be taken as secondary skills.

Yea, I read about it in BTS-2.

It may be as old as N&SS, but it is new to me....

Most importantly its new to rifts through RUE. So i assume from your post that you supoort the secondary skills slelection rules?

Actually, the old RMB put the secondary skill selection restrictions in the individual OCC descriptions. This isn't new to Rifts, it's just a new way to present an old idea.

The Lord of Bones wrote:The old RMB also put limits on what skills could be taken as Secondary Skills (p.23, right before the skill lists start), but they only listed a small number of skills.

R:UE not only made the list bigger, they organized it by category. Personally, I think making a more complete list is reasonable and nothing on the list jumps out at me as something that shouldn't be on it.

Were there some skills on the list that you don't think should have been denied as Secondary Skills?

I think the physical skills can be learned as a hobby. Wrestling, gymnastics, perhps not acrobatics but most of the other skills can be learned in high school or as recreation clubs. Both of which qualify as secondary skills. Why couldn't you learn to be sneaky on your own (prowl) my two year old is a friggen ninga.

I'll have to draft up some characters using it, but since I usually slot all my Physical skills underthe Secondary catagory (so you can get the maximum number of percentile skills), I don't see much of a problem off hand.

I just finished reworking a character (paratrooper) for RUE and it was very hard to give up some skills so i could keep the physical skills I needed to wield heavy weapons (the trooper specialty) I gave up things like Intelligence and demolitions and moves my communications skills and wilderness skills to secondary skills sacrificing a +10 bonus for those skills if they were taken as OCC related skills. I really think the physical skills should be allowed to be taken as secondary except for boxing acrobatics and gymnastics and the HTH skills.

Greyaxe wrote:I would allow most physical skills to be taken as secondary skills with the exception of the hth skills and perhpas Boxing

For the most part I could get on board with this. Except that for me, Boxing is an elective only, and for some OCCs count as two skill selections. It gives too much to be nothing more than secondary skill selection.

Maliki0976 wrote:basically i think that it makes the game allittle easier to **** up in and i dont think we want that too much.

Talking to me?

How could prowl be an OCC related skill exclusivly?? How How How??

I think the physical skills are a little too restrictive, but ive said that already so ill shut up now, but I have come to the realization in order to get my physical skills there will be a lot of communication skills now as secondary.

It is not easy, one can see both sides.

For me it cuts down on the min-maxing, which I personally do not care for. The beautiful thing is that this is an easy rule to ignore if that is more to your taste.

Yes I like it, even though it is a bit more restrictive than I would have made it.

I voted yes.

In regards to physical skills I allow all of them to be selected as secondary skills. But there’s a catch in my games when it comes to physical skills. Boxing, Kickboxing, and Wrestling each cost two skill selections. Acrobatics and Gymnastics both cost three skill selections.

secondary skills are skills you take up on your own time. right? thus while you may see people doing backsprings and cartwheels and stuff ... and looking good doing it, its more like comparing yourself as a child compared to olympic gymnists. yeah you can do it, BUT its sloppy as all get out. thus the starting % should be equal to the char's PP. and then with the 5% increments.

IF they take the time to train with someone during down time [and during a game where the GM can say yea or nay], then they should get a one time bonus of 5% per month of intensive training. that takes care of the 'physical skills' .... otherwise, if the person is learning something like .. say literacy in a language [case in point - "latin for dummies" books 1-4] .. it will take a while to actually learn .. thus for the first game after aquiring a new secondary skill i use base IQ as the starting %, and then add up from there.

but, sadly .. what works for me might not work for everyone

I like the newer R:UE rule.

I find it makes it even more critical on deciding what skills you should get with your OCC choice. Mind you, I am not 100% happy with what some of the choices are. But there is nothing there that I would really change.

Regards

I folow the guidlines for the occ listing of secondary skills because they are not an active part of their lives and is more akin to a passing hoby that they persue maby once a week or month which is why they dont get bonouses to it and is not treated in the same manner.

Arise. ARISE! ARISE YE DEAD THREAD!!!


No one can stop me now!!!



except those damn dirty apes known as mods...

demos606 wrote:Actually, the old RMB put the secondary skill selection restrictions in the individual OCC descriptions. This isn't new to Rifts, it's just a new way to present an old idea.

Page 23 in the RMB lists several skills that aren't allowed to be secondary skills for anyone, not just specific OCCs/RCCs/PCCs.

The Beast wrote:

demos606 wrote:Actually, the old RMB put the secondary skill selection restrictions in the individual OCC descriptions. This isn't new to Rifts, it's just a new way to present an old idea.

Page 23 in the RMB lists several skills that aren't allowed to be secondary skills for anyone, not just specific OCCs/RCCs/PCCs.

They put the blanket exclusions in one place, they also put a list in each of the OCCs in the RMB. The exclusionary list is more for OCCs in other books that didn't necessarily get the same attention (or any at all in some cases) to secondary skills. You gotta make allowances for conversions and custom OCCs and thats what the p23 list does.

R:UE removed the need for the OCC lists by making the whole set standardized. It's not a new idea, just a new presentation.

lather wrote:

demos606 wrote:Um, this wasn't new for R:UE. N&S, Splicers, BtS2 have similar charts and RMB limits (by OCC) what can be taken as secondary skills.

Yea, I read about it in BTS-2.

It may be as old as N&SS, but it is new to me....

its actually much older than N&S...
The separate list was first introduced in the original First edition version of HU and further refined in the Revised edition and even further refined in HU2. In point of fact even in the original version of Rifts had restrictions on Secondary Skills beyond the blurb mentioned in the OCC/RCC sections.

The Beast wrote:

demos606 wrote:Actually, the old RMB put the secondary skill selection restrictions in the individual OCC descriptions. This isn't new to Rifts, it's just a new way to present an old idea.

Page 23 in the RMB lists several skills that aren't allowed to be secondary skills for anyone, not just specific OCCs/RCCs/PCCs.

Whoops... ...beat me to it...
Next time I should read the whole thread hmm?

demos606 wrote:

The Beast wrote:

demos606 wrote:Actually, the old RMB put the secondary skill selection restrictions in the individual OCC descriptions. This isn't new to Rifts, it's just a new way to present an old idea.

Page 23 in the RMB lists several skills that aren't allowed to be secondary skills for anyone, not just specific OCCs/RCCs/PCCs.

They put the blanket exclusions in one place, they also put a list in each of the OCCs in the RMB. The exclusionary list is more for OCCs in other books that didn't necessarily get the same attention (or any at all in some cases) to secondary skills. You gotta make allowances for conversions and custom OCCs and thats what the p23 list does.

R:UE removed the need for the OCC lists by making the whole set standardized. It's not a new idea, just a new presentation.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your thoughts here...
But the Pg. 23 exclusions are in addition to any OCC/RCC/PCC Restrictions.
so yes it is as you said earlier just a different ( better ) presentation of the secondary skills list.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

demos606 wrote:

The Beast wrote:

demos606 wrote:Actually, the old RMB put the secondary skill selection restrictions in the individual OCC descriptions. This isn't new to Rifts, it's just a new way to present an old idea.

Page 23 in the RMB lists several skills that aren't allowed to be secondary skills for anyone, not just specific OCCs/RCCs/PCCs.

They put the blanket exclusions in one place, they also put a list in each of the OCCs in the RMB. The exclusionary list is more for OCCs in other books that didn't necessarily get the same attention (or any at all in some cases) to secondary skills. You gotta make allowances for conversions and custom OCCs and thats what the p23 list does.

R:UE removed the need for the OCC lists by making the whole set standardized. It's not a new idea, just a new presentation.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your thoughts here...
But the Pg. 23 exclusions are in addition to any OCC/RCC/PCC Restrictions.
so yes it is as you said earlier just a different ( better ) presentation of the secondary skills list.

No, the page 23 list is regardless of what OCC/RCC/PCC you are.

The Beast wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

demos606 wrote:

The Beast wrote:

demos606 wrote:Actually, the old RMB put the secondary skill selection restrictions in the individual OCC descriptions. This isn't new to Rifts, it's just a new way to present an old idea.

Page 23 in the RMB lists several skills that aren't allowed to be secondary skills for anyone, not just specific OCCs/RCCs/PCCs.

They put the blanket exclusions in one place, they also put a list in each of the OCCs in the RMB. The exclusionary list is more for OCCs in other books that didn't necessarily get the same attention (or any at all in some cases) to secondary skills. You gotta make allowances for conversions and custom OCCs and thats what the p23 list does.

R:UE removed the need for the OCC lists by making the whole set standardized. It's not a new idea, just a new presentation.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your thoughts here...
But the Pg. 23 exclusions are in addition to any OCC/RCC/PCC Restrictions.
so yes it is as you said earlier just a different ( better ) presentation of the secondary skills list.

No, the page 23 list is regardless of what OCC/RCC/PCC you are.

yeah...not sure...but I think we are saying the same thing...
Or was that your intention?

Damian Magecraft wrote:yeah...not sure...but I think we are saying the same thing...
Or was that your intention?

Maybe we are, but I think the way I'm saying it is more clear than how you are. I guess that's where the misunderstanding is at....


But before I come off like a troll, let it be known that that's how I'm reading it. I don't know how others are reading it.

The only real omission from the secondary list I have trouble justifying is Physical Labor.

i rather like the RUE secondary system.. the old RMB version made secondary skills just OCC related's without bonuses. but since OCC related is supposed to be skills related to your main training, or picked up during it, the old way of secondary skills didn't really represent the kind of 'day to day life skills'.. the new RUE approach,. while still a bit flawed in selection, better represents the idea of 'hobbies, life skills, and background skills learned before picking up your main job training'

Eagle's Cry wrote:So... I can't have a character who can actually be seductive unless my O.C.C. says so? Or actually learn something about how to locate contraband, no matter how much he deals with the Black Market? Riiiiight. I applaud the idea, and a wider list would create more differentiation between two characters with the same O.C.C., but this list is a little... lame.

You should read the article Kevin and I wrote in Rifter #61 to get a bit of an idea about what "being seductive" really is within the game. What you are likely assuming is seduction is more likely a roll to charm or impress someone. The Seduction skill is, well, its in the article.

As for the Black Market complaint, if your character has strict dealings with the Black Market its more likely THEY have contacts with him and THEY find him for his sales. There is a bit on this in Rifts: Black Market. I highly recommend it if you have a character that has regular contact with the BM. It really is a fantastic book. Finding the Black Market isn't like walking into a place where folks are trading firearms, its knowing the right catch phrases so that the guys in those stalls know they can sell the gun to you without the person who sold them to them selling them down the river.

Anyways, this is just a matter of perception man. We've all been there before. I hope I've helped some.

Oh, and remember... you don't find the Black Market, their Confidence Artists and Merchants find you.

Giant2005 wrote:The only real omission from the secondary list I have trouble justifying is Physical Labor.

Secondary Skills = Skills you learn how to master in your spare time/hobbies.

Character's who workout as a hobby = Athletics or Bodybuilding & Weightlifting
Characters that are whipped and build pyramids as a hobby = Physical Labor.



I think its safe to say that "most" people don't spend their recreational time mastering the tedium and abuse that is Physical Labor "the skill." Keep in mind, having the skill means you've honed it and are a pro... at dragging bricks up hill or stacking wood.

Outdoorsmanship though, that one is an oversight.

Rifts: Ultimate Edition, page 300 wrote:Secondary Skills are areas of knowledge that the character has picked up on his own through learned experience, observation and personal studies. They may be related to the character's occupation or reflect completely different interests and hobbies.

Eagle's Cry wrote:My point is that secondary skills aren't only your hobbies. They're skills that don't require any formal training to master to a usable degree (i.e. have as a listed skill). Only that that lack of formal training will result in reduced capability/reliability of performance.

*Looks at the quote in the R:UE.*
*Looks at Eagle Cry's quote*



Huh?

Why would you bring "formal training" into this man?
As someone with like a crazy amount of time on his hands (most of the time - one of the few perks of all your friends being married and having no real family to speak of) I spend a lot of time learning new skills (it keeps me sane; is sane the right word to use?) but it still requires a lot of my spare time to learn a new skill and I have to practice a lot and watch other people. I didn't just decide one day I was going to learn cryptography and then read a book and pick it up, I spent like, no exaggeration here... like..? Jeez, nearly two years I think it would have been. During that time I had to look at how others did it, read tons of books, and screw up again and again until I finally got good at it (well, I wouldn't call myself good but capable.)

Anyways, it was still a hobby and so I couldn't give it the time and attention I would have liked. So in my mind that would be a "secondary skill" because it was unrelated to my work or responsibilities as a journalist. I guess my point here man, is that just because you don't NEED formal training doesn't mean its a cake walk or you can just learn something. Like, its not like you go up an experience level and pick running and now all of a sudden you're a million times better than you were yesterday. Its more that upon leveling you have reached a new plateau and it should be assumed that the skill is something you've been at for a while.

Gah, sorry its like 4:27am and I should be a sleep instead of rambling incoherently. Closing point, most people don't have a lot of spare time (I am lucky in that regard because I am a home body and my career allows me to make my own hours) and the people who put in a lot of hard work into their job (I've been that guy too) do not typically come home and decide they're going to learn how to build giant robots (they're tired and over extended). Secondary skills are "hobbies" they're things you make time for outside of your normal job, typically they're probably things you do for fun or entertainment (pilot: bicycle, sing, or dance). Just because they don't HAVE to be doesn't mean most of the time they're not either.

Some people have some pretty hardcore and demanding "hobbies" like mechanics: automobile or scuba. Think like "the character" when picking your secondary skills. Sure, running is handy but wouldn't the butter troll rather get cooking since he's cursed to live a lonely and bitter life.. and getting into shape isn't going to make up for his obnoxious personality.

My point is, most people don't learn how to build weapons systems or how to pilot a deathshead transport in their "me time" and secondary skills are supposed to represent that. That said (and you can quote me on this) if you have a character that was a kickass crazy parachute enthusiast and thats ALL they did in their free time than talk to your Game Master about allowing it. I mean, man, honestly. They're guidelines. I am a stickler for the rules but they're not supposed to impede creativity. Kevin wants us to have fun and bring our imaginations to life. If you're character idea is a kung-fu butler that wears a fez and has a weakness for handsome young men then by the gods you do that. That is the beauty of Palladium, anything is possible.

Also, the fez is a miniature fridge that hides his 'emergency martini'... and he is a Kremlin Cyborg. I dunno... its Rifts!

RIFTS!



I should be asleep.

It helps to limit players from making their characters super skill boys.

What I really miss is the ability to acquire "new skills' through in game time training. Like in
Heroes Unlimited you can have the character go to college and learn a particular skill or a
skill program. This suggest the character has time to educate themselves. The more
education you get the more bonus you receive (+15% max). This rule doesn't exists as far
as I can tell in Dead Reign, BtS, Robotech, or Rifts Ultimate Edition. The only new skills you
get are going up levels of experience.

Another friend of mine was irritated that his Palladium Fantasy Barbarian from the Northern
Hinterlands only gets three secondary skills and nothing else (not including O.C.C. and
O.C.C. Related Skills). This means the Barbarian whose hanging around his adventuring
friends can't pick up any new hobbies, new interests, or abilities the rest of his life? So
he cant learn a new language, learn to read a map, or basic mathematics? He can only
acquire O.C.C. Related Skills? Now I know there are some who say, "Well as G.M. if the
players says he wants to do this, you have the ability to say yes or no for that character."
Yes, I agree and that is what we do in "my games," buy I shouldn't have too. Again the
same in game training that occurs in Heroes should be "Palladium Universal" for the whole
game system. It seems to me the update skills that came about via Rifts Ultimate Edition
that now carry over in BtS, Robotech, and Dead Reign should have allowed for this instead
of being one of those "G.M. house rules" concepts. Just my two cents worth.

I wish I'd never read that page... It's hard enough in this game to pick up new skills, without limiting further.

If there was a reasonable way to raise your attributes as you level, most of the physical skills would be useless, or could fall under other categories. I personally would like to allow a character to take anything as a secondary skill. The current physical skills are what makes this overpowered right now.

The Beast wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

demos606 wrote:

The Beast wrote:

demos606 wrote:Actually, the old RMB put the secondary skill selection restrictions in the individual OCC descriptions. This isn't new to Rifts, it's just a new way to present an old idea.

Page 23 in the RMB lists several skills that aren't allowed to be secondary skills for anyone, not just specific OCCs/RCCs/PCCs.

They put the blanket exclusions in one place, they also put a list in each of the OCCs in the RMB. The exclusionary list is more for OCCs in other books that didn't necessarily get the same attention (or any at all in some cases) to secondary skills. You gotta make allowances for conversions and custom OCCs and thats what the p23 list does.

R:UE removed the need for the OCC lists by making the whole set standardized. It's not a new idea, just a new presentation.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your thoughts here...
But the Pg. 23 exclusions are in addition to any OCC/RCC/PCC Restrictions.
so yes it is as you said earlier just a different ( better ) presentation of the secondary skills list.

No, the page 23 list is regardless of what OCC/RCC/PCC you are.

The Beast is correct......IF you use RUE as your Game canon for rifts games.

my players would save their secondary skills as weapon profincies...grrrrrrrr......so unless the base weapon profiency was chosen as a skill i didn't allow sharpshooting......win for gm.

I use it while they create their characters and when they level.

Though in-game they can find Rouge Scholars and study under these people for 8-14 weeks and learn any skill that the Rouge scholar has and get that skill as a level 1 secondary skill.
This usually cost credits, trade goods, precious metals and stones as well as a favour (a small adventure).

"Of course I can teach you guys to speak Spanish, though it is stupid of you to come to Mexico city and not knowing it. Anyway, give me 8000 credits worth of stuff, preferably gemstones, per person and take this little parcel to my friend in the next village up in the mountain which is called Santa Ana. You will recognize it as it has a large church building with a blue roof. Go to the priest inside and give him that - he will in turn give you something back that you will return to me. When you come back.. I will take my valuable time to teach you how to speak Spanish, and if you are quick, i might give you a few classes in the local indian language as well."

or they can enroll to university classes in places such as Lazlo or New Lazlo to study.

But if they do this, time will go and either they get the entire group together and work something out - or they will not be able to play with the rest of the group until the classes are done

I like the secondary skill list pretty much as is. A few of the restrictions seem abit over the top. prowl is something that any one any where should be able to learn. If I were to GM I would allow other skills to be taken as secondary skills provided that the player could justify the skill through a good background story.

I had a GM that allowed a character of mine to have holistic medicine as a secondary skill, but I burned two skill slots and I had a good story to go with it.

After finding this section on my own, and discussing it with my current players, I pretty much all but blacked this part out of my RUE book.

I realize that Rifts is not the world that we live in, that's why we play it. But outside of children raised to be gold medal winners directly out of the womb, I have never met anyone who learned Gymnastics as part of a job, but rather as a pastime. As an Army vet I was taught Hth:Commando, but never Boxing until I started going to the gym on my own time. Same thing with Kick Boxing at the local MMA gym, I chose to do that in my own spare time as a hobby. These were all secondary skills that I chose to learn, that have nothing to do with my occupation.

Also I don't know anyone who got past the age of 17 who wasn't very adept at "Prowling" out of the house when they really wanted to.

In my copy of the original Rifts rule book it says secondary skills are chosen from the OCC related list, I and my players prefer to keep it that way.

In general, I like it.
Of course, I do allow people to learn whatever they want for Related skills after first level, unless they've specifically said their character is autistic, or they don't reasonably have a way to learn skills outside of their normal OCC.