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Hey all.

Maybe its just me, but I dont understand the slavery issue. To me, its such a forgien concept I can't seem to intergrate it into my games.

Take Rifts: Atlantis, and the slave markets and all the different types of slaves that are for sale there.

Everytime, I think of using a slave as an NPC (villian) I cant help but think they would jump and run, try to over throw, escape from or attempt to kill there owners. Rather then doing what they are told.

I guess I just dont understand how a Slave would think. How does one role play it? Would they blindly do what ever is asked, regardless of alignment?

How does a loyal slave think VS a rebel slave?

What is the mindset of a slave?? Are they always trying to find freedom, or are they just happy where they are?

Stuff like that..

Any ideas? I'm lost on this one.

I remember having an NPC Fire Warlock slave that thought Splynncryth was God. Literally.

The PC's freed a ship full of slaves, and he went about, spreading the message of the "One True God", and the PC's found themselves on the receiving end of a former-slave rebellion...

Also remember that slavery goes hand in hand with ethnocentrism, the belief that your kind of people are better than their kind of people (very similar to racism but not exactly the same). If you truly believed you were better than someone else based on race the leap of logic to owning a lesser group of people isn't very far.

EDIT: Racism and ethnocentrism still exist today and will for some time. However, due to the tremendous efforts of certain extraordinary individuals and groups our society has come a long way. The fact that you have trouble connecting with the concept is a small sign of success that we are moving in the right direction. When slavery requires abstract thinking and doesn't come so easily to us I think we are doing well as a society.

Mr. Nexx has an article on slavery on his web-site, I believe it was also published in a Rifter. It's based around Palladium Fantasy, but the concepts are all the same. It might give you some good insight.

Northern Ranger wrote:Mr. Nexx has an article on slavery on his web-site, I believe it was also published in a Rifter. It's based around Palladium Fantasy, but the concepts are all the same. It might give you some good insight.

Thanks!

Ill have to check that out.. along with some of the other things that were mentioned.

Alot of it can simply be fear of reprisal as well.

Afterall as some one mentioned the Splurgoth are probably -very- good at getting back escaped slaves. And no doubt punishment for misbehaviour is extremely severe.

Honestly, think up the worst punishments you can immagine. Then multiply that by.. ten or so. And so what if the odd slave dies from punishment? Makes them a public example to the rest!

Some will run anyway the moment they see a chance, others will stay out of fear, some out of some misguided sense of loyalty, and others.. just because the thought never even crossed their minds.

Of the latter it could be because they simply know no other way of life. So they dont want for a better life. This is more likely the outlook of those born into slavery or simply those who's will has been completely broken (Something the Splurgoth are no doubt quite good at)

The others, because as previously mentioned, are given a degree of power. The master has power, obviously as he has many slaves. Escape may be near impossible, so some turn to pleasing their master to gain their own form of power. Power enforced largely by said master.

And others wont even see themselves as slaves so much. They'll be treated decently and given that which they desire. Say the slaves are a very combatitive race, and are used to wage war, capture new slaves etc. What mroe could they ask for then? Their given food, weapons, armor and all other methods they could care for to do what they enjoy. And thats fight. Be it as soldiers, guards, slavers or gladiators.

This is a very interesting topic indeed.

And to agree with an eariler post. Yes, it is a good thing that we may have a harder time to grasp the whole slaving concept. I though the same thing when I first posted this question.

I dont like the idea of slavery, but its a very interesting concpet when trying to intergrate this into a Rifts world game.

This maybe a simplistic view on those born into slavery, but could it be the same kinda of idea of having a pet dog for example? You raise it as a pup, and you can either be kind to it or not and it will still grow up knowing you are its master and will obey you regardless if its out of fear or loyalty?

Its simplistic I know, but is that kinda close?

Thats one way you can portray it yes. Some folk who are slaves will fall into that catagory. Just look at the master/slave aspect of BDSM. While it may be in the bedroom only for some. For others it extends into the every day relationship.

And it's entirely willing.

There are people out there, that for one reason or another simply want to do what others tell them to, some infact seem to feel a strong -need- for some one in such a position.

In then end just mix up your portrayals and degrees of willingness/unwillingness and go with that. You should get it right enough as far as gamers will be concerned. It's not too likely you'll ever wind up running a game for a current/ex slave/slaver who will nitpick about it.

Thats a very good point about the alien mindsets!!

Will take that into account.

Regards

hmm .... sad thing is ... slavery still exists. the 'white slave trade' is alive and doing well. think of the pretty young ladies that vanish and are never seen again. or are found in another country killed. how did they get there? ... why did they go? and many other questions arise.

simply answered. people looking for a quick buck. will grab the 'chosen target' and that person is paid between 10K - 500 K.

it exists, my aunt almost was taken. by her boyfriend at the time. so it happens. some will be found even now .. in the harems in the middle east.

There are a lot of sick people out there. As a father, the very thought of my children possibly growing up around that sort of thing is frightening. I just hope I can prepare them properly.

never said it didn't exist in America ... my aunt is a Canadian. i'm well aware where it is on the atlas. but thanks for the reminder. this is the same woman that offered tea to the Dali Lama ... owns the 2nd set of a certain set of china that the Royal family uses on special occasions. there are only 2 sets in existence] she's been all over the world, was in India when the door was kicked in by 2 young soldiers with machine guns .. and kept the girls under her charge alive by offering tea and taking pictures. there were gunshots on their floor and on other floors above and below. she also had Charles Olsen in her vehicle when he was on the run.

she had a full life, and still is. so yea, i'm aware of things not being filled with roses and sunshine in the world. i just made a statement that most of the girls that vanish are taken by white slavers. usually forced into a certain trade and then killed when they get too sick. the ones that DON'T end up there are whisked off to parts of the world and hidden away like a national treasure. THAT was my point in my prior post.

Just read a little more of this post since last night... I dont want us to get to far off track as this can be a touchy subject. But I would rather try and keep it to related to how a GM could adapt this sad thing into a game to get the realistic feel.

But I do have more questions.

I am well aware of todays current problem of human trafficing or smuggling. When I lived in BC a few years back, it was a pretty big problem. People leaving there own lands and trying to get over here, only to have to put pay of the debt by working in sweat shops, and other less tastfull trades.

So, the question is.. is this a real form of slavery or just a really bad deal for the poor souls trying to leave their own country? And if so,
how would people in this situation kind of think?
do they do it willingly or do they resesnt everything about it?
do they try to escape this deal?
or were they forced into this deal to save a member of the family?
and how would this be handled by a GM to get these feelings across in a game?

For a comparison on modern day slavery compare what you do for money, to make a living so you can feed yourself and your family. Many people take verbal ans psycological abuse from their employers because they dont believe they have a choice or can do any better. It is simply something you have to suffer through to make a living.

oh .. good point there DD ..

i DO apologize for the thread jacking

shiiv-a wrote:oh .. good point there DD ..

i DO apologize for the thread jacking

I don't think you Thread Jacked it at all, and I hope i didnt imply that you were. My bad if i did.

You raised some good points. and I am hoping to hear everyones view so I could help get a feel of it for what I have planed in the up coming game.

And what you said is helping me understand some of the real life issues that happen with it. I just dont want it to become to heavy.

So, good topics

Regards

mAd eAgle wrote:Personally I would give each slave some minor insanity to reflect the TORMENT they have endured.

Just something to ponder...

Thats not a bad idea, and depending on how they have been treated, the more severe it could be... thats a good idea I think.

Being first worlders, its hard to imagine a life of fear.

Try

Noon wrote:Being first worlders, its hard to imagine a life of fear.

Try

Eh.. I dunno. I can well immagine it. Even the 1st world has an ammazingly dark underbelly. Suffice it to say I wouldnt ever suggest some one try living on the street if they didnt have to, as eye opening an experience as that was...

Misfit KotLD wrote:

MASTERMIND wrote:Also remember that slavery goes hand in hand with ethnocentrism, the belief that your kind of people are better than their kind of people (very similar to racism but not exactly the same). If you truly believed you were better than someone else based on race the leap of logic to owning a lesser group of people isn't very far.

EDIT: Racism and ethnocentrism still exist today and will for some time. However, due to the tremendous efforts of certain extraordinary individuals and groups our society has come a long way. The fact that you have trouble connecting with the concept is a small sign of success that we are moving in the right direction. When slavery requires abstract thinking and doesn't come so easily to us I think we are doing well as a society.

Just how narrow are your ethnic definitions? Slavery has existed without such a strong ethnocentric bias and it has been maintained strictly on ethnocentric principles.

I was providing a textbook reference on the relation between ethnocentrism and slavery, as taught in anthropology classes for last couple decades.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

MASTERMIND wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:

MASTERMIND wrote:Also remember that slavery goes hand in hand with ethnocentrism, the belief that your kind of people are better than their kind of people (very similar to racism but not exactly the same). If you truly believed you were better than someone else based on race the leap of logic to owning a lesser group of people isn't very far.

EDIT: Racism and ethnocentrism still exist today and will for some time. However, due to the tremendous efforts of certain extraordinary individuals and groups our society has come a long way. The fact that you have trouble connecting with the concept is a small sign of success that we are moving in the right direction. When slavery requires abstract thinking and doesn't come so easily to us I think we are doing well as a society.

Just how narrow are your ethnic definitions? Slavery has existed without such a strong ethnocentric bias and it has been maintained strictly on ethnocentric principles.

I was providing a textbook reference on the relation between ethnocentrism and slavery, as taught in anthropology classes for last couple decades.

Which wasn't always the case. Yes, it has been the case in some cultures, but not all.

I disagree. I can't find a single culture that allowed slavery that did not endorse some amount of ethnocentrism. So I challenge you to provide an example of a culture that allowed slavery but did not possess some degree of ethnocentrism because I certainly can't find one.

What exactly is your position? I was talking about slavery and ethnocentrism going hand in hand. I'm not sure what your position is.

I agree, ethnocentrism does not equal slavery. Evidence of that fact can be see in the U.S. today in people who believe their people are better but slavery no longer exists. My statement wasn't meant as a two way street.

However, slavery has never existed without ethnocentrism. You use the example of a mother selling the child into slavery. That is an example of someone using slavery for another purpose. The reason behind the slave trade existing for her to sell her child into it definitely involved ethnocentric causes. You will never find a case where someone decides one day to sell a child into slavery when the slave trade doesn't already exist in that society.
I'm talking about an anthropological perspective of a society that allows slavery. You will never find one in which ethnocentrism does not exist.

Shotgun_Jolly wrote:

mAd eAgle wrote:Personally I would give each slave some minor insanity to reflect the TORMENT they have endured.

Just something to ponder...

Thats not a bad idea, and depending on how they have been treated, the more severe it could be... thats a good idea I think.

I'm not so sure that would -allways- be applicable though. Some people are made of sterner stuff. Others would quite willingly accept such a position and would, and infac tin the past, have been treated -very- well. That isnt to say a minor insantiy isnt in order. But it wouldnt necessarily have anything at all to do with torment.

More control related issues. Of course the average slave is badly mistreated no doubt. But not all are, and not all are tormented. In such a situation the minor insanity coudl just be that the character passively follows whom ever is 'in control'. Some will stay loyal to one master and one master alone. Others would litterally switch to who ever is the 'top dog' as it were.

That for example I think would apply to alot of the splurgoth slave races for example. But more because the vast majority of them have been flat out born into such an existance. Other races such as the Thropo warriors of the Atorian empire in AU are such (if I recall correctly) Simply because they lost the war and thus willingly as a whole race accept a form of slavery. And would likely switch to a new power if some one ever conquered the Atorians.

The other interesting point was with the Romans. There are at least a few cases I belive where slaves that were used as gladiators were treated quite well. And some even allowed to go free after a time.

Kesslan wrote:

The other interesting point was with the Romans. There are at least a few cases I belive where slaves that were used as gladiators were treated quite well. And some even allowed to go free after a time.

Roman slavery was a complex beast - slaves with enough money saved could "buy themselves" and their freedom.

Ancient Egyptian, for example, slavery is also a complicated matter - the hebrew "slaves" are now known to have been paid for their labour as Archaeologists have discovered payroll sheets detailing the wages of the Hebrews that built Pi-Rameses. They were skilled labourers and artisans, not the steroetypical malnourished and downtrodden shuffling along in their chains.

"Salvery" is a very generic term that is used to describe a relationship between slave and master that has differed widely across different cultures throughout history.

I get the impression the Splugorth are not too disimilar to the above examples, the distinction between master and slave being one based largely around financial and legal contracts as much as race. That's how I would play things.

sHaka wrote:I get the impression the Splugorth are not too disimilar to the above examples, the distinction between master and slave being one based largely around financial and legal contracts as much as race. That's how I would play things.

For the most part I'd probably agree. There's certainly enough cases of well to do Splurgoth owned slaves. So too actually do the Naruni.

In the end I think the Splurgoth empires have the widest range of slavery types possible. If it's a form of slavery they do it, and even if it isnt they've probably found a way to make it so, so to speak.

Its also not too disimilar to human smuggling rings. You either pay exorberant fees. Or you indenture yourself to what effectively ammounts to slavery. At an assumed (well below minimum wage) pay rate and can then work your way free.

Of course often what happens is they pay the exorberant fees and then are effectively pressed into slavery anyway amongst many other problems one can face.

Rifts just allows even more ways to be enslaved.

Sir! Gezor the slave just died!

Damn! Oh well have him turned into a zombie, even in death he will serve me. Oh! And one more thing, Ural failed to make his payments for the last time. Have the acolytes bring him to me. I need another soul to fuel my latest invention.

Kesslan wrote:

Shotgun_Jolly wrote:

mAd eAgle wrote:Personally I would give each slave some minor insanity to reflect the TORMENT they have endured.

Just something to ponder...

Thats not a bad idea, and depending on how they have been treated, the more severe it could be... thats a good idea I think.

I'm not so sure that would -allways- be applicable though. Some people are made of sterner stuff.

Yes, I agree aswell.

Take my example of the pets. Some people may treat their pets "Better" then people in their own family or just spoil there pets anyway because they love them so much. So, why not have it apply to Slaves. Some spurgoth slave owner may be really fond of some human. This Human slave could be biggest jerk in the world and be strutten around town afraid of no one, because his/her owner is going to look after them no matter what... (and may even get away with stuff) although unlikley this may happen, its an example none the less.

Regards

Misfit KotLD wrote:

MASTERMIND wrote:I agree, ethnocentrism does not equal slavery. Evidence of that fact can be see in the U.S. today in people who believe their people are better but slavery no longer exists. My statement wasn't meant as a two way street.

However, slavery has never existed without ethnocentrism. You use the example of a mother selling the child into slavery. That is an example of someone using slavery for another purpose. The reason behind the slave trade existing for her to sell her child into it definitely involved ethnocentric causes. You will never find a case where someone decides one day to sell a child into slavery when the slave trade doesn't already exist in that society.
I'm talking about an anthropological perspective of a society that allows slavery. You will never find one in which ethnocentrism does not exist.

Nor will you find a society without ethnocentrism, so to say anything dependent on society can exist without it is rather moot.

Except ethnocentrism is one of the core driving factors behind slavery along with economy and a couple others. Gender roles have nothing to do with slavery but they are an important part of society and culture. See the difference? So its not a moot point. The original poster was having trouble connecting with the concept of slavery. I assumed the poster understood the economy behind slavery as that is an easy one. As a concept though understanding ethnocentrism helps one to understand slavery and how one group can do that to another group.

Ok it's time for an information dump.

Wikipedia

An abolitionist website.
Antislavery.org

Literature:
Arnt I a Woman

Personal note:
I do use slavery in my Rifts games. it runs from relativly harmless forms where the slave is treated like a member of the family to ones where the slave can be publically beaten to death. it depends on the group of players and the GM. Personally I am against slavery in anything other than a BDSM relationship where all parties involved are willing.

Rockwolf66 wrote:Personally I am against slavery in anything other than a BDSM relationship where all parties involved are willing.

Kinky

I dont think any of us are really -for- slavery. Though I could be wrong. One still, especialy for a setting like Rifts, must come up with ways to portray it however. Since it's a rather bleak reality of the setting.

Heck, same goes for Starwars, and to an extent Shadowrun (which really, is all about playing a criminal of some sort) and a few other RPGs.

Misfit KotLD wrote:But that is not ALL slavery. Although it can explain some of how slavery works for the OP to grasp it.

Yeah.. I think that is what is helping me to grasp the concept and to develop a mindset.

Its allowing me (for example) to think of ways how the slavers would treat the slaves.. other then just a food source.

But this is really helping out tho..

To a minimal extent, I use slavery in both my PF games. However, it's more of background feel and plot device (both groups have some in-character grudges with slavery in general).

I'll admit, I also have trouble wrapping my brain around slavery, so I use descriptions of serfdom for long-term, fear and lots of guards for short-term. Concepts like serfs and villeins are laid out in depth in a lot of medieval fiction/medieval fantasy, the inside track on slavery seems to be explained only in fiction books I'd rather not pollute my mind with.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Shotgun Jolly wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:But that is not ALL slavery. Although it can explain some of how slavery works for the OP to grasp it.

Yeah.. I think that is what is helping me to grasp the concept and to develop a mindset.

Its allowing me (for example) to think of ways how the slavers would treat the slaves.. other then just a food source.

But this is really helping out tho..

Glad to be of help.

MASTERMIND says the concept of ethnocentrism can help the OP connect with the concept of slavery for the purposes of his game.

Misfit KotLD starts an argument about ethnocentrism not being connected to all slavery.

Eventually we work back around to Misfit KotLD saying ethnocentrism can explain some of how slavery works for the OP to grasp it. <== Sounds a lot like what I was saying in the first place, as a matter of fact, that WAS what I was saying in pretty plain English.

OP posts and says that can help him

Misfit KotLD says he is glad to help.

Dude, all you did was argue with me and eventually agreed with me on the only point I was really trying to make.



I admit, I wasn't aggravated by this conversation but your last comment makes it seem like you were the only one who helped the OP. Is there an emoticon for rolling up the BS flag?

well ... if you asked me, which no one did or does .. let alone takes seriously cause i'm NOT a massive poster

some people like to argue for the sake of arguing. he likes to spark interesting a topic, cause of one thing ... he likes to ruffle the feathers of someone just as interesting as himself.

take it as a compliment - he will of course DENY this .. and chances are, so will you. why? .. cause yer both kinda transparent that way. its not a bad thing. you can both safely agree to disagree and not loose th followers you both have. me? .. will i'm not really interested in boosting my post count. i'ld rather try to give my opinions in the fact of actual insight and content.

peace guys .. and i think the hatchet is now buried? .. it should be. you've gone full circle and will continue this again .. and for what? ... i'm clueless.

MASTERMIND wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Shotgun Jolly wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:But that is not ALL slavery. Although it can explain some of how slavery works for the OP to grasp it.

Yeah.. I think that is what is helping me to grasp the concept and to develop a mindset.

Its allowing me (for example) to think of ways how the slavers would treat the slaves.. other then just a food source.

But this is really helping out tho..

Glad to be of help.

MASTERMIND says the concept of ethnocentrism can help the OP connect with the concept of slavery for the purposes of his game.

Misfit KotLD starts an argument about ethnocentrism not being connected to all slavery.

Eventually we work back around to Misfit KotLD saying ethnocentrism can explain some of how slavery works for the OP to grasp it. <== Sounds a lot like what I was saying in the first place, as a matter of fact, that WAS what I was saying in pretty plain English.

OP posts and says that can help him

Misfit KotLD says he is glad to help.

Dude, all you did was argue with me and eventually agreed with me on the only point I was really trying to make.



I admit, I wasn't aggravated by this conversation but your last comment makes it seem like you were the only one who helped the OP. Is there an emoticon for rolling up the BS flag?

Mastermind,

Sorry... I should have been more clear. This whole topic has helped.. It wasnt just Mistfit. I was just agreeing that the discussion did help.
You helped aswell

But Yes, the BS icon would be a good one to have
Thanks!

shiiv-a wrote:peace guys .. and i think the hatchet is now buried? .. it should be. you've gone full circle and will continue this again .. and for what? ... i'm clueless.

But the hatchet is never truley buried untill it's in some one's head!

MASTERMIND wrote:
I disagree. I can't find a single culture that allowed slavery that did not endorse some amount of ethnocentrism. So I challenge you to provide an example of a culture that allowed slavery but did not possess some degree of ethnocentrism because I certainly can't find one.

Well, seeing as how ethnocentrism has been a cultural constant for the last 3000 years.... independent of slavery status (over the last 50 years, there has been a few blips against the idea, but it's not enough to make a statistical dent in the cultural history of the world). It's like saying "Slavery and lack of electricity go hand in hand", correct, every culture with slaves has had no electricity.... however, so have 99.9% of the cultures who didn't do slavery... with a few blips in the last 150 years, but not enough to tip the scales.

ethnocentrism can't be treated as a cause of slavery when ethnocentrism is a constant. It's redundant. Air may as well be pointed to as a cause, or gender roles. There is a stronger connection with Farming and slavery (every slaver culture I can think of farmed, but I don't know of any hunter-gatherer slavers) than there is with ethnocentrism (which is present in strong amounts to both the farmers and the hunter gatherers). The causes need to be something that is present in cultures who have slaves, but are weaker or absent in cultures that don't.

But on using slavery in games, there are different kinds of slavery, different ways to do it, and different mindsets. For example, a Splugorth slave, could be relatively content from the "I am but a Kydian, and without my Splugorth masters, we would be lost and weak. But we are stronger as slaves to The Splugorth than we ever were on our own" (not true of any historical instance of slavery, but true in Rifts) Even from a human perspective, a T-man becomes almost God-like (again, not true of historical slavery. There are some instances of slave-soldiers, but slave-soldiers with superpowers!?). I can imagine a lot of T-men being loyal. Especially T-Maxi men, they'd be treated like superstars. Kittani? The 'Masters' literally saved their race in return for service.... I can imagine loyalty. In Rifts, life is so unstable, the stability of slavery..... if handled appropriately... could be seen as prefferable to the chaos outside. And how does thinking "They are above my lowly status" change when the 'Masters' are actually immortal superpwered beings who don't bleed? (another thing that's not true of historical slavery)

Yes, Splugorth slaves would be unlike any slaves that have ever walked Earth, but then again Splugorth masters are unlike any masters that have ever walked (or slithered) Earth. And there's a lot of interesting role-playing that can be done.

Let's say you wanted a T-Man villain who is loyal to his Sploogie Master. The fact that he is a slave may not even occur to him. In his mind, he may consider himself a chosen warrior of a grand cause. So-called freedom is only the foolish prattle of those unworthy to be chosen by the Sloogie.

Also, slave life is easier than freedom for many people because slave life, like prison or military service, is an externally structured life. The external structure provides the answers to life's questions and any necessary decision making. Slaves who have been slaves for half or more of their life may be incapable of living in a situation where they must make their own choices.

As others have mentioned, also look at the mentality of the modern American wage slave. We have huge numbers of people in the populace who go to a menial, demeaning, debasing job that barely pays the bills for hour upon hour and then go home just to regain enough energy to go back to said job. Are they free citizens? Yes. Are they really free? Not in the least.

Again, look to religion for good options. If the Sploogies captured a bunch of inbred hovel dwellers and sold them to a dragon, it is logical that the slaves may worship the dragon...especially if the dragon pushes that concept. And slave or not, what would your "villain" do to protect his god and master?

Stuff like Spin's example are the main reason I try to show everything from the willing slave, to a slave who technically isnt. To the one who is flat out not only knowing of their 'stature' but perhaps even reveling in it!

You cant do that to me! I'm one of Erafrah the Destroyer's slaves!