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Rhineville wrote:For rules, we do things a bit differently which might make me initiate the 'proper' rules. Such as dodging - for taking up an attack, all we do is reduce the number of attacks that person has that round (IE they don't miss their turn, just lsoe an action). So the combat goes:

player 1: strike
player 2: dodge
pl2: strike
pl1: dodge
pl1: strike.... etc

I used to do that too, but it stoped making logical sense to me. It took me a long time to understand the mechanics and flow of combat. Dodging should take the next attack cause it makes a kind of sense. The defender remains "on the ropes" while the attacker lays down fire. Think about a movie where there was a shoot out. Usually you have one guy firing shots while the other ducks, dives and dodges for cover. Then (next round?) the other guy eventually gets initiative and fires back...rinse repeat.

Never underestimate the power of HTH combat even in Rifts. Character I once played was not only a good shot with a gun, but was an absolute terror in HTH (Very high HTH bonuses due to High PP, RCC and OCC combo. It wasnt actually intentional)

As a result I actually more often than ont wound up putting away the guns and pulling out a pair of swords. Which at first drew incredulous stares untill the enemy was quickly cut to pieces.

Disarming worked quite well too. The character in question was actually on a Rifts MUSH so there were a few cases of character fighting character. There were a efw who were better with a gun than I was. But that didnt really matter if I disarmed them.


This sort of mentality would likely work quite well with juicers and other high PP characters etc. Also things like knockdown, knockout, pin attacks etc.

Sure.. they dont do damage. But.. what if say.. one NPC pins a character while another pulls out a handgun to shoot him? You could quite easily wind up wtih a PC being taken hostage.

And.. well to my line of thinking. If the PCs say attempt to shoot their way out of it. The NPCs in question, will not hesitate to kill the hostage even if it's a PC. But then I tend to play alot of Shadowrun and its just one of those sorta games where you face off against that kinda stuff quite often. And PC death is really to be expected (what with all the billions of doublecrosses, screwjobs, jobs gone bad etc)

I still resolve it via established combat rules of course. But I try to make my PCs think abit more beyond 'oh lets just shoot them'.

Also maybe pit them against NPCs they MUST subdue rather than kill. With an obviously very unwilling to co-operate NPC.

Not sure on the kinda game your running but one example I've used (Though again from SR, which alas is all I've had a chance to play last two years) is this..

You'll have an NPC say.. put a bounty on another NPC. Or maybe the NPC in question has vital information that only they know. So obviously you need this person alive.

But their more than willing to do what it takes to -kill you-. Maybe they'll even try to suicide once in captivity if your extra evil.

So how do you subdue him? Well.. generally HTH is the only real option unless you've got a taser or something. ANd given its the Rifts setting just give him MDC EBA. Most 'taser' type weapons that work through EBA in Rifts will have a very high chance of killing some one if used on the kinda power level required to stun someone through MDC bodyarmor.

Most wont even be able to do that.

EIther way try to present them with a few scenarios where disarming/subduing is the optimal course of action, or even the only one that will save a hostage or some such.

Like Little Mary Hopkins has been taken hostage! Her hostage takers are juicers in EBA with laser weapons and when the PCs are there one of the hostage takers has a gun to her head. Eevn if they get a shot off they likely wont kill the guy in a single hit without risking misting the hostage, and if the hostage taker survives the hit he WILL kill the hostage.

ANd if that happens have them chased out of town by an angry pitchfork and las rifle wielding mob or something.

And then have NPCs come after them out of revenge, maybe even cause other trouble for them.

Be EVIL

But I'd like to have situations where even though they are more powerful than their enemies, they need to think to defeat them

Do you want them to have to think to defeat the baddy, or just to think?

I say this cause while many GM's might say this, they would instantly fudge away the result of failure (ie, PC death). In otherwords, it's not about avoiding defeat - they just want the players to do, like, interesting stuff.

If your going to fudge away defeat, you need to use something real to get that interesting stuff.

I run combat on my PBP Robotech game as half melees let players state half their attacks in one post. I allow one dodge cover everything coming at them for that half melee, a player can opt to dodge continuously if they so chose. This helps if they are attacked by more missiles then they can dodge in one attacks/action (4 or more per the rules).

This keeps the game dynamic, which I think is important in any game, table top or PBP.

OK that gets the die roll issue out of the way, now on to the creating fun combat without the die rolls.

Because of the severity of the situations I place my characters are placed in; they are usually outnumbered and have to use cleaver ideas in order to survive. No amount of “just shooting, dodging, and piloting” (i.e. die rolls) is going to allow characters to survive in my games. Decisions such as how to get down to the next deck of the ship or where to go once that elevator opens up and you find yourself outnumbered 4 to 1 are very critical to the outcome of the combat encounter.

Rhineville wrote:I don't fudge in obviously dead-end situations. I always give a chance to live/win, but I never fudge.

I don't even really want to ramp up the difficulty that much (thinking or stat-wise) I just want my PCs to hav more fun than just rolling dice through combat.

Well, your PC's don't exist - players do, so I'll assume you want them to have more fun.

Aren't they having fun right now, during combat?

Before it sounded like you weren't having fun during them. Are you sure your trying to help your players?

Well its not really clear at the mo - you said your looking for interesting combat techniques, but haven't said who actually desires this? Really, the answer is to find out who doesn't find it interesting right now and why (that then leads to answers) - but there's no clue who that is yet.

BTW, I was just thinking today, as I played the STALKER first person shooter, how stuff that I do could seem quite boring to an uninvolved observer, but are quite tense and gripping for me.

GM's tend to be uninvolved observers more than they think they are. They think they are involved, but really they are like a person watching a race, while all their friends have a bet laid down and they don't. No, their not really involved in that event, that's why it seems the race needs sprucing up.

That whole creating rubble thing is a cool idea!

In hi tech games, I tend to have the bad guys ( well trained/equiped and smart) use smoke screens, booby traps and concertrating fire on specific individuals.

They try and use lots of blast/area effect weapons to maximize damage and increase chances to hit.

They also never just stand there and shoot at the heros either.. They try to out flank, they fall back to better spots.. And if they do get into close combat, they try called shots to hands and arms, they dont go for out right kills but for wounds.. and then finish off the heros later if they can.

But like I said, I do this for highly trained and armed bad guys..

Smart Supernatural creatures, tend to be more sneaky and try and stalk the heros and make quick fast attacks. They go for KILL shots to head and neck areas if need be. They think like a predator, so i try and make them act like them too.

Hope this is what you are looking for.
Regards

Shotgun Jolly wrote:
They try and use lots of blast/area effect weapons to maximize damage and increase chances to hit.

To clarify this.. They aim for where near where they are standing. Aim for the ground and let the blast radius do the work.. Grenades Grenades Grenades

well .. never know when a baddie is gonna have a few npc' under his ... well his thumb and for whatever reason.

you got mutants in Rifts ... one conversion book has SOME of the ones listed. well you take the ones that keep the Meta-being as SDC only, and small things like that. blackmail them into working for you, kidnap a sibling/child or the significant other.

i was thinking more like 'spin at high speeds' .. and the control over making small twisters to pester and blow gunk in the eyes ... or to have it sprout up in front of the lightest PC .. and suck them up and then stop while the pc is in the air. inside MDC armor, no real damage. once the armor and body hit the ground. the damage bypasses the armor and goes to the body inside. not really deadly, just really annoying.

you don't have to outright INJURE the PC's .. just make them think of themselves. make a picture of the area the 'ambush is in, put the baddies as one color item. pennies if you need them. the pc's as .. oh say 25 cent pieces. and the big baddie at the end as a silver dollar or something like that. helps if you make some of the items the baddies hide behind as being raised 3D items ... [behind your screen so you have an idea where they are if its tabletop] and have them place miniatures where they plan on moving. thus YOU have an idea where they are .. and how open they might be. nothing ruins a plan when you have a pit trap with a sniper to take a shot the the knee or some joint like that. make the 'roll against pain' happen. not enough of that about in the games anymore.

well .. just a couple of thoughts .. could add more, but i think i've mumbled enough for now. laters and good luck

Another tip for added fun in combat:

Any time during combat, make character's roll perception rolls to see a new adversary or adversaries joining combat from around the corner and whatnot, and throw in tougher baddies again(more perception rolls). Works great