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So I have this problem lol

My regular weekly game group that consists of 3 people, 4 at the most (me and 2 or 3 others) have been trying to do a low powered game for the past month but to no avail. Two of us want to do a low-powered game while the other person hates being weak and insists on being no lower than 5th level because he thinks its boring.

The 4th person of the group is fairly new to Rifts so he's rather impartial as far as what we do. The problem is that we say we want to do a low powered game with the 3 (or 4) of us each taking turns GMing when the current GM either gets tired or runs out of ideas instead of rolling up new toons every session. So thats the basic idea of what were trying to do right now but so far we've gone through 3 different sets of character (and I've gone through at least 5).

Another problem is that were all ass-clowns when it comes to doing things...a recent example is we were in some sort of western like town, one of us was a Gunslinger (GM who auto-pilots his toon while he's running the game) a Spec. Forces merc, a Gunfighter and a Dinosaur Hunter (me). Well long story short this group of gunmen were walking down the middle of the town and me being a 7 foot tall monkey, was walking behind them because the sherrif had told me to get lost earlier. So the gunmen turned around got pissed and shot at me blowing off one of my toes. Since none of us were wearing armor I grabbed one of them and split him in half with my Steel Tree axe that I had and got shot immediately after.

So our basic mentality towards confrontation is we just charge headlong into things if we have the "gear" to kill at least 1 person regardless of the odds. The end of that game was we were trapped in an SDC shack and surrounded by like 30 gunmen...we ended up suiciding with a few fusion blocks and grenades.

Anyways (off topic there a bit)! The problem I have is that its my turn to GM and were...once again...overpowered in my opinion. Were starting as a 5th level War Knight, 5th level Mystic Kuznya, and 5th level Necromancer (me).

I want to do a dungeon but since their bruisers and my toon is pretty much the brains of the operation. Since I'm GMing my character will be on auto-pilot (like on the movie Click) and they have pretty much no skills other than physical.

My question is, how do you get hard headed people who hate being weak (and I mean HATE, they refuse to play an OCC that doesn't get either loads of weapons or power armor, and if I do manage to get them to play a lower powered OCC like an Operator or Rogue Scholar then they always do something to have either godly high stats with a HtH from mystic china, or they somehow find a way to get power armor)

If I try to limit it to OCC's that are on par with an Operator or Cyber-Doc or something similer they refuse to play....its not even possible to get them to do a Palladium game.

Please help!

Not much you can do if you work it that way.

Except start throwing things at them that combat monkies cant handle. Be mean!

Get em on nice nice quest, then have them infected with some slow flesh rotting disease that only science and a proper labratory can cure.

Start throwing all sorts of traps at them that need to be disarmed but are designed that only characters with X type of skills can manage to disarm.

Jack up the price on all gear, make high end stuff way harder to get.

Lower their pay/loot ammounts. Play up the fact that the CS is doing it's damnest to dry up the illegal arms market. Maybe half the stuff now becomming rare because the CS has just blown up a major Bandito Arms hub, confiscated major Wilks product shipments. And then maybe they put abit of a diplomatic squeeze on Triax and the NGR so that they wont sell to random adventurers etc for a little while but only 'CS approved' customers.

Give bonus XP to people playing 'weak' characters. Especialy in combat. Afterall a weak SDC level 1 rogue scientist with a crappy 1d6 wilks laser pistol and plastic man facing off that CS platoon has a much harder time than that decended level 9 psychic glitterboy pilot and his TW modified FQ Glitterboy.

To the rogue scientist I'd probably give at least 50xp a kill, bonouses for quick thinking etc. To the GB I might give 5 for the whole platoon of CS kinda thing. It's honestly that vast a threat difference.

Hopefully that will give you a few ideas. In any case, no 'low power game' ever stays that way. You allways want some progression that actually -feels- like progression after a while. You can at least that way keep it 'lower' powered.

Also you need to be alto more restrictive. No MDC characters, force em to pick only cheap gear to start. So no starting characters with fully functional glitterboys with a full payload, JA-12s, NE rifles and body armor etc.

See I try to do stuff like that, make em choose lower powered gear, make stuff rare, or just not give them anything, but when the time comes around for them to run the game they just load up their toons with all sorts of crap. We had a scenario where they wanted to hunt demons and we ended up fighting an entire gang of demons (the ones that can get cybernetics can't place the name atm). anyways...after we kill them the GM decides to have us find some flat beds with a few crates of naruni weapons...we try to take them and we get KO'd because one of our members didn't want to try to sell them so we end up getting on this pirate boat who kidnaps my character and in a quick time jaunt we got from level 1 to 5 in 9 months of training on a boat and are given the Talismans of Armor...i refused to take the items since i was kidnapped and held hostage for 9 months so i ended up being killed.

Thats the kind of stuff that happens...try to do something to balance the game and they get pissed or they don't want to play. Its annoying me so much that I'm thinking about just not playing anymore because its just wasting my time...

Ah yeah...

In that case I'd suggest trying to find a new group. It doesnt sound to me like it's a compatible group for you since their obviously fixated on some pretty serious powerbloat.

This is why, if I ever get involved in GM swapping I run a totally seperate game when it's my go rather than the same setting. Especially as, with the group it seems you have people just give themselves what ever the want regarless of how much sense it makes.

Oh yeah so you totally find this rift and go in and get an NE god of war, and some special armor and figgure out how to make it so your not killed when you become the pilot of the god of war and destroy chitown like.. totally in under 5 days!

**Once again I pimp this thread... I should be on 10%...**

Get them to read this as an example of how un-boring a low powered campaign can be

viewtopic.php?t=27785&highlight=kittenstomp

1st, starting any character at level 5 = not a low powered game. My new rule is you start at level one. Work for it punks!

2nd, passing the GM hat is problamatic at best, exspecially if the other people don't have the same vision you have with the game. In my opinion, it's better to have one GM. You can still have the players GM every once and a while just to change things up, but the OG GM still has veto power on any bull crap the stand in does.

I don't know, there's all kinds of ways you can stear the game more towaard good roleplaying as apposed to hack and slash, but it kinda sounds like your group wants hack and slash. There's nothing really wrong with that. I spent years running games just like what you described, after a while though they get stale and you want something more. That's when you hide all the books except for the core book and make em roll level 1 xters. Of course I have the benifit of being the only one willing and able to GM (a fact I used to HATE, but now I love) so if they want to play at all, they do what i say.

I would say if you got one guy that wants to be uber rifter, kick him out of the games, or constantly kill his characters off....yea, do that.

Also, if you guys are flying through characters, your not making em right (in my opinion). Your character's should take on a life of there own...they almost become extentions of you. Haveing a character that get's killed sucks. Put more time into character development and then maybe your players will be more cautious cause they want them to live. This was actually my best argument with my group for starting at level 1: "Don't you guys wanna watch your character grow?"

Ok, i don't even know what i'm saying anymore. I just woke up. So i'm gonna stop....but yea, good luck.

And just a question, how long have you guys been palying rifts?

If you feel that it is just one person ruining the experience for everybody, remove that person. What the person is envisioning does not mesh with the rest of the group, so what the heck are they still doing in your group? They should look for a world-destroying party somewhere, and let you guys get on with your own campaign.

If, on the other hand, the problem is that none of you are really able to play a low level campaign well, you may want to look at the campaign itself. You're saying that no matter what happens, you're all acting like you're heavy hitters with lots of armor. Perhaps it should be discussed with whomever is GM'ing what sort of challenges are appropriate for the game. Non-combat challenges, such as strategy, puzzle solving, and investigation, are most likely more appropriate. I can certainly understand why your friend doesn't enjoy low-level gaming, if facing down 30 gunmen is what to expect. Low level campaigns need to be scaled on both sides, not just the player side.


Passing the GM hat can be rough, but it can work out as well. The key, in my mind, is that the GM should never be a player as well. People come and go from groups all the time, and someone may easily be called home to deal with an issue, or be side-tracked by some quest. Allowing a person to have a character in a game they are GM'ing is asking for trouble.

My friends and I have, of late, been swapping the GM chair for a series of loosely connected BTS2 games. The key though, is that our characters are also just loosely affiliated, so it's easy for the person GM'ing to not be involved on a personal level with the players. When that adventure is complete, we all return home, and await the next call - if the GM has changed, it simply represents that a different group of people responded to a given cry for help, and we work together as that new group instead.

bunch of good ideas in this thread thanks everyone

ya i had a long chat with one of them last night trying to explain things but he freaked when i said i wanted us to work up to being uber instead of starting at the middle ground. explained it as being similer to a business.

sure inheriting a business is awsome because all the hard work is usually done, so now all you have to do is keep it running and your good to go. but its alot more satisfying if you work for it. his outlook was it doesn't matter if its just going to fail....

to answer your question as to how long we've been playing...i'm 25 in the fall and i've been playing since i was a freshman in high school and so has the munchkin of the group. 1 person has been playing since his senior year in HS and the other has just started playing (like 1 month of play off and on).

ya i'm just going to have to set some ground rules and put my foot down for our GM swapping crap. I mean its fun because we all get some pretty sweet ideas but one way or another someone messes the game up by just handing out crap left and right.

anyways. thanks for the input everyone most appreciated

Ahulane wrote:bunch of good ideas in this thread thanks everyone

ya i had a long chat with one of them last night trying to explain things but he freaked when i said i wanted us to work up to being uber instead of starting at the middle ground. explained it as being similer to a business.

sure inheriting a business is awsome because all the hard work is usually done, so now all you have to do is keep it running and your good to go. but its alot more satisfying if you work for it. his outlook was it doesn't matter if its just going to fail....

*snip*

ya i'm just going to have to set some ground rules and put my foot down for our GM swapping crap. I mean its fun because we all get some pretty sweet ideas but one way or another someone messes the game up by just handing out crap left and right.

Keep in mind that running your group is like running a buisiness too - putting your foot down is like them wanting to start out powerful - you just want something without working towards it. Think of them as customers - sure, as a buisiness owner, if you want to sell pizza's but everyone loves meat, you don't give up and become a butcher. But on the other hand, you can start selling meat lovers pizzas!

His comment about failing is interesting - he may be interested in a 'going out in a blaze of glory' style play. That wouldn't seem to hard for a good GM to offer as play.

And on mechanics, invulnerabilities (to lasers, to magic, whatever) are realtively easy to work into NPC's when the players themselves make such a wacky crew. Technology, super powers and especially magic fill this in nicely. You then have various low powered weapons which get past the invulnerability, which you give out as per a low powered game.

Most people think low power = knife fight in an alley. Here your uber gunslinger can't kill the invlunerable SDC guy, but he instead gets into a knife fight in an alley with him, cause the SDC dagger is charmed to get past the invulnerability.

You can do the same with armour - the baddies do massive damage, but if you have a special armour, its reduced alot.

However, they are meat lovers - put in two regular guys for every invulnerable guy - that way they get their power fix when they blow them apart, but also have low powered fights as well. Remember, your running a buisiness - give the customers what they want as much as you can.

Unless you just want a fully grown buisiness without working for it, in which case your just like them. Anything you could say about them wanting a full buisiness straight away you could aim at yourself too.

the whole time jaunt tada your level 5 thing was because we had agreed to be level 1 from the start but the GM got tired of us being underpowered so we were influenced to join this pirate captain and be trained by some crazy old guru dude for our time on the ship. I ended up refusing training and banging my head against the wall for the 9 months then was pretty much executed. After that I rolled up another character who by the time I got to play was in a completely different game since they switched GM's while I was gone and gave the original GM's character some crazy tower that was basically the same thing as a Spatial Mage's personal dimension. Needless to say I wasn't too happy after that happened so we all rolled up new characters...though that only lasted 1 session.

But ya the time skip to level 5 was a dumb move...I don't want to be harsh or anything on the other players since were all long time friends. I showed our munchkin player the link to the low powered campaign that sHaka linked earlier and his response was...it sounds cool but thats just stupid and boreing...

I was like huh??? dude thats an awsome game that anyone would love to be in! It has everything (or pretty much) that you could possibly want in a game and could progress to an epic scale game after some decent play.

I've pretty much given up, come Friday next week its going to be either cooperate and lets get a game together that lasts for at least 2 days or my books become collectables or paper weights....

I have loads of ideas for games already written up which is sad. like 4 pages worth of material that could lead almost anywhere (thats 4 pages for 1 game)....only problem is that it requires a certain amount of conformity since its rather Linier in the beginning...none of them require a long time commitment...usually just a short story as to the plot and some background to flesh out their own characters (set the stage as it were). Though...you could go a whole different way with it as well in one of them and it'd be as if your watching a cut scene from a final fantasy game but your not even in the main characters party...just a tag-along who happens to be in their same vacinity when whatever happens and then decides to go and do their own thing.

I hate having to GM sometimes because its usually just a "hey your turn to GM!" and I'm stuck sitting there with a blank stare on my face going "wuh?"

Give me a weeks notice and I'll have something made up that can be pretty involved, as far as on the spot goes though...it just doesn't happen unless you want things to get crazy really fast.

Ahulane wrote:I've pretty much given up, come Friday next week its going to be either cooperate and lets get a game together that lasts for at least 2 days or my books become collectables or paper weights....

Did you read my post about putting your foot down?

I don't mind people deciding to leave groups - but using it as a threat to get what you want leaves a poisonous taint even if you do keep gaming.

Also if, in the end you really dont mesh with the group your in. Dont dispair entirely.

Afterall you can easily join in on, or run games online. You've obviously got an internet connection, so at the very least you can join or run play by post games at the very least.

Thats not really a playstyle I like, but it does the trick. Then there's real time chat etc. And you can have voice to do it with (or just for OOC comments etc) along with all the other tools out there.

It does miss some of the in person TT gaming, but in the end I at least, have personally come to prefer RPing online in a text environment. Mostly because you can find some really good RPers that put out some really nice poses etc.

Of course finding people and sheduling times everyone can play can be an issue. But it is doable.

Did you read my post about putting your foot down?

I don't mind people deciding to leave groups - but using it as a threat to get what you want leaves a poisonous taint even if you do keep gaming.

ya i read it, but i'm kinda at a last straw here...i reasoned with 2 of the people in the group and they were ok with one of the ideas i had an said they'd start making an effort (it wasn't based off the threat either) but the 3rd member is still not down with it...basically told him how it was...play or don't.

harsh i know...but I can technically get away with being an ass to them since were all close long time friends.

Afterall you can easily join in on, or run games online. You've obviously got an internet connection, so at the very least you can join or run play by post games at the very least.

I try to do the play by post games but sometimes things come up and I forget to check on the game to post and weeks go by and by the time I relize what happened I'm out of the game lol, but they are fun I must admit.

My advice, sit each of your players down in private and ask them what they want from the game and compare it to your notes. Then using both build a game to suit everyone's needs. And don't be afraid to challenge the group in several ways at once, that will divide them up as to what they want to do.

ya I basically sat our hack and slasher down and had a good couple hour chat with him about what kind of game I wanted to run and if he thought it would be something he would want to do. He said ok and our newbie was onboard for it as well since he was getting tired and confused at our mindless killings every game. Still our powergame is only moderately interested...wanting to be a child sea-titan vagabond to start and then a True Atlantean...told him basically "no deal, i told you the conditions, either play with us or wait till were done and you can run yet another high powered god campaign to satiate your thirst for carnage."

guess we'll see how things go this Friday

Sounds to me like your being perfectly reasonable. And am I wrong in my impression that he wanted his 'child' sea titan, which doesnt exsit, to eventualyl some how turn into a true atlantean? Which is... a very high improbability to say the least.

The whole child sea titan thing doesnt work simply becuase they dont become MDC beings untill their in their teens or something if I recall the entry correctly.

A true atlantean depending on OCC though isnt actually overpowered in my book. So I'd allow that easily enough myself since most are still SDC beings and if you want to be able to use tatoos in EBA your out of luck without at least removing a glove or something etc.

I never understood people who -had- to be ultra powerful to have fun.

Ah well best of luck

Jeez, could you paint me as an evil munchkin villian any more?

Is it so horribly wrong to not wanting to play as a normal human in a game of rifts? Here we have a game with dozens upon dozens of different races and they're all off limits?

As for the game, power levels are relative to the campaign you play in, and that hasn't been a problem except for in his own opinion. All those involved except for him were similar in stature and having a great time fighting their way out of situations(which is all that most of them wanted to do, since most opportunity for investigation or puzzles was scoffed at).


That said, I simply prefer playing MDC beings with Supernatural Strength in Rifts. Right, I'm a power gamer... Well, when the GMs love to make all of your equipment just 'disappear'(as in not a theft, not a malfunction, not any explainable cause for a loss; simply vanish while you sleep and the aforementioned gear isn't just sitting outside with the keys in the ignition), then you want to be capable of *something* even when unarmed and unarmored.

If wanting to be prepared for ending up naked and weaponless makes me a powergamer then I guess I am.


I was trying to make a concession, Sea-Titans do not become MDC beings or gain supernatural attributes till they reach physical Maturity(17 or even as late as 21 years old). If the character was a 13 year old Sea-Titan with a reduction of the RCC skills; then it would be equivalent to the Human Scholars and Adventurers in the game. As that was denied, I suggested True Atlantean instead, there is no transforming munchkin monster...

I'm not going to say anymore, as I don't want this to turn into a flame fest, but I needed to defend myself at least a little bit with all this heresay and rumor balooning out of proportion.

Actually, for this game he is requiring; Normal Human only and choice of only a scholar or adventurer OCC(excluding wilderness scout) and no weapons or armor to start.


Something like the PC's will be the support crew for a band of Warriors. My best analogy is like; A fighter Pilot campaign... except the PCs are the Mechanic, the Communications Officer, the Cook, and the Doctor.

Not that thats bad, just don't know where its going to go.

Give it a chance, is all I can say here. In a world like RIFTS, being the normal guy instead of the exception (aka powerful guy), can be an awesome RP experience.

If it turns out to suck, you'll have given it a try and made your point.

It it turns out fun, you'll have gained an insight and found a new outlet.

I'll repeat something I said in a previous post in this thread. Both sides of the adventure need to be scaled equally. If players are being kept with normal equipment and few resources, the challenges they face should be suitable for that. Your GM should never hit you with challenge that requires things you have no opportunity to come up with. Just bear in mind that simply because something would be easier with big weapons, special powers, and lots of resources, that doesn't mean it's invalid to encourage people to approach it from another angle. So long as another angle is possible, you're good to go.

The vast majority of the world doesn't have M.D.C. technology, magic, psionics, or the slightest clue how to acquire them. There are countless adventure possibilities in that portion of the world, where a person who can think well and shoot straight, even with an old kinetic pistol, is hero.

Well.. thats definately low power to say the least.

Sounds a touch strange. But personally I'd at least give it a try. It could wind out being quite interesting. Certainly different if it's handled well.

Personally for me, in rifts lowpowered just restricts things to SDC RCC/OCC. And I've never forced anyone to be a specifically 'support' character. But then I like a good bit of action alongside stuff that makes you think.

I think the closest I ever came to what you describe is the char I played on the now defunct Robotech MUSH. Started off as just average joe the civilian with a few assorted skills. Wound up doing mostly support/general RP.

Eventually went on some space mission they were needing volunteers for. We all wound up catching this plague. It was really kinda cool cause they actually coded in this plague that could (and did in some cases) spread to people you were simply in contact with.

So eventualy bunch of us wound up in Quaranteen and couple of us almost died before another PC figgured out the cure. Shortly thereafter my char wound up (due to interatction with other PCs) joining the REF military and becomming a destroid pilot and it kinda just took off from there.

I never did have much luck though. I wound up loosing something like 4+ destroids (and getting quite a few badly shot up) and having a host of other 'Bad Things'™ happen to me. But it was alot of fun.

So stuff like that can lead to a really good game experience.

In the end though if you folk are all action and He's wanting a more thought through gameplay style. It just really sounds to me like he needs to find a new group that plays more to his style.

To me, a low powered RIFTS game with support class characters and no M.D.C. weapons is the ultimate in Survival Horror.

A blasted landscape. Desolate ruins. A population living in fear. Horrible monsters you can NOT harm with your weapons. The people are depending on you - what do you do?

A desperate race across scarred badlands, perpetually scrounging for the resources necessary to evade the bad guys and stay alive, while simultaneously seeking the firepower or trick so urgently needed to dispatch them. That's where the adrenaline pumps and the fear sets in, and that's where I'd get a game experience to remember.

Anybody can deal with a situation when they come pre-equipped with the gun/missile/power needed to handle it. It takes guts and skills to have to FIND and GAIN those things.

A lack of low powered games like that is why I don't play RIFTS.

Oh theres some games like that in Rifts. You just need to find the right GM.

One Rifts game I was in the GM (before CE came out) decided he wanted to do one set very shortly after the apocalypse. We could only play humans, we had to pick some OCC that would have been around then, and we could only pick from SDC gear.

He then swaped out some of stuff with slightly better (But still SDC) equipment and our horror show kicked off from there.

There were 3 players:
A Hollywood action film actor who 'thought' he knew how to fight
An Ex Cop
And myself as a demo expert milita type who really knew more about home made bombs than he did 'real' ones.

We had some good SDC body armor, SDC pistols. The ex cop guy had an SDC SMG and I had an SDC Assault rifle with a grenade launcher. Only had grenades for it, and they were teh only thing we had to start, that could actually do MDC. And that was for a whooping 1d4 (1d4X100 SDC)

Joy to the world.

About 4 hours into the game one guy while piloting his car messed up a piloting roll, hit a pothole, crashed the car, and I as the only guy even remotely capable of fixing vehicles wound up having to get it back to road worthy status. WHere uppon I was attacked by a swarm of some 20 compies who did all of 2 SDC per bite.

Between them and the stupidity of my team mates I almost died. It was awesome

Actually, for this game he is requiring; Normal Human only and choice of only a scholar or adventurer OCC(excluding wilderness scout) and no weapons or armor to start.

ya so when you ask to be a Sea-Titan and then a True Atlantean it's way to overpowered for the game, or at least moderately overpowered.

Something like the PC's will be the support crew for a band of Warriors

Pretty much hit the nail on the head there. You don't have to play though as I told you earlier...

The theme for the game is were "support" for a small group of War Knights and soldiers/mercs who are out to keep the Russian locals safe from supernatural predators, settle disputes, heal the sick, basically do everything that a normal party of good adventurers do that you hear about, all the while with the players being the ones who have their own aspirations/goals that they want to accomplish by being with this group or perhaps they are using this group to further their own goals but need the protection and "muscle" to get certain things accomplished.

A blasted landscape. Desolate ruins. A population living in fear. Horrible monsters you can NOT harm with your weapons. The people are depending on you - what do you do?

A desperate race across scarred badlands, perpetually scrounging for the resources necessary to evade the bad guys and stay alive, while simultaneously seeking the firepower or trick so urgently needed to dispatch them. That's where the adrenaline pumps and the fear sets in, and that's where I'd get a game experience to remember.

Anybody can deal with a situation when they come pre-equipped with the gun/missile/power needed to handle it. It takes guts and skills to have to FIND and GAIN those things.

A lack of low powered games like that are why I don't play RIFTS.

This is exactly why I want to play Rifts...though yes the lack of these kinds of games is dissapointing...thats why I want to run one. I enjoy the hack and slash god powered games as much as anyone else because you can just mess around and nothing can stop you but when I read other peoples games where they start out a lowly vagabond wandering the wastes and through some hard work and time he ends up ruleing an entire city or whatever...thats what I'm looking for.

Progression towards a high end game, I've played I don't know how many games where we start off as 5th level this or 10th level that or look I'm a godling...whats there to do other than hack and slash that would be a real challenge? sure you could do a dungeon with some crazy magic traps but hey I can just port myself out, or you have so much MDC that no spell in the book will be able to scratch you unless you get hit a million times because on top of the huge damage capacity you have regeneration.

Just some general thoughts, maybe laying out clear guidelines up front will clear up any miscommunication. Laying out "this is the power level, this is localized setting summary, these are the acceptable OCCs" can help, because it can also help lay out back-stories; ie, was the character born there, or an immigrant?

From there, the GM has the responsibility of holding to that power level on his/her side of the table. Don't send in NPCs that are too big and bad, don't send in NPCs that do too much. Don't play "god" too much and make people unkillible or events unchangeable -- even if you want your bad guy around for a while, if the player gets that nat 20, say goodbye to the NPC. Even if you regret some of the gear you gave, don't make it just vanish from an unstoppable pickpocket.

However, the players also have the responsibility of saying upfront if they want to join that particular game or sit it out, and adhering to the OCC guidelines if they choose to join. Don't try to pull one over on the GM, that is breaking faith.

If the laid out power level is "support crew, not much special", the location being "russia", and the OCCs being "scholars or minor adventurer types", then it doesn't make any kind of sense for a true atlantean or sea titan to just so happen to be in the neighborhood.


On a less advice note, more personal note, I do think that starting several levels ahead is not a good idea. It encourages powergaming and hack-n-slash too much, and it discourages character growth. Not only does the character learn things from levels 1 through 5, but the player is learning what all the character can do as well. I've had characters that I could not play to their fullest at level 1, but by level 5, I had several tricks up my sleeve just from the experience of trying to outsmart the GM.

R I F T S = O V E R P O W E R E D

just a thought. you want to play low powered? try TMNT or BTS or one of the skilled classes from HU

Yes you can run a low powered Rifts game but it doesn't sound like your players actually want to do that

You could try a "clone bank" kind of game where you keep playing the same characters with the stats but maybe with different skills and what not

Ahulane wrote:

Did you read my post about putting your foot down?

I don't mind people deciding to leave groups - but using it as a threat to get what you want leaves a poisonous taint even if you do keep gaming.

ya i read it, but i'm kinda at a last straw here...i reasoned with 2 of the people in the group and they were ok with one of the ideas i had an said they'd start making an effort (it wasn't based off the threat either) but the 3rd member is still not down with it...basically told him how it was...play or don't.

harsh i know...but I can technically get away with being an ass to them since were all close long time friends.

No, not harsh. I thought you were trying to force him to play. But saying "This is the sort of game I'm running, come over if you want to do it that way, otherwise catch you next time" is fine. In fact I wish I'd started doing that years ago.

How do you want a low powered game to go? Could you describe the begining, middle and end?

If you can, it can help your players because you can show what they should be doing (right now they think they take a fifth level and fireball anything that moves). If your start is something like "Ask around town, looking for leads on precious supplies" then they know that the game isn't about the fireballing and what general direction the game is about - plus there's alot of room to move in asking questions around town (use force, use charm, use bribes, steal the info, etc).

duck-foot wrote:you want to play a really low powered rifts game, play Dinosaur Swamp and allow only the OCC's, weapons and equipment in that book.

Oh hey thats another good example. Though I'm not overly fond of Dinosaur Swamp myself. Another option is also Rifts: Australia, which is very Mad Max in feel. Not to mention that MD weapons are actually fairly rare.

Even in the few remaining 'major cities' their all very tightly controlled to the ponit where most weapons are infact SDC.

Setting still doesn't help - I've tried to run Australia games and the players had all sorts of off kilter ideas about the game.

Don't worry about setting, just decide what the players should be doing (roughly) at the begining, middle and end - then tell them. It's very hard for players to work up some wacky expectation in their head when you already told them they'd be doing X, then Y, then Z. And as I said, you can leave alot of room in X, Y and Z to move still.

[quote="Noon"]Setting still doesn't help - I've tried to run Australia games and the players had all sorts of off kilter ideas about the game.quote]

So?

I've honestly never had an issue with that as a GM.

P1: But I want a glitterboy! WAAA

GM: Sorry GBs do not exist in Australia.

P2: Waaaa I want an NE-75H

GM: Sorry NE isnt in Australia.

See? Easy.

If, the group as a whole however wants all these super mega overpowered toys. Then one moves on to a different setting. But when I establish a game I say flat out. We are using setting X.

Then again I have nothing wrong with a game evolving from low to high powered at all. Many games can do this quite well infact and you just make the PCs work for it.

Making them work for it is infantly better than just going OK! Well now there's this big huge NE dealer in Australia and youc an buy all thes uper mega overpowered toys you want! YAYS!

At least in my opinion. And if you disagree. I seriously doubt you'd agree to be in one of my games to begin with unless it was PW setting or something.

Seriously, msot of it is all about just putting your foot down and saying no. Because if I'm not enjoying myself I'm not gonna run the game for you. It's not like it's my job, like I -have- to or like I'm being paid to do it. I'm doing it because I want to.

I'm the GM, my rules go, end of story. You want to debate? Well ok. I'm open to that to an extent so long as it's not just a bunch of retarded endless rules lawyering/Munchkinism etc.

It's not that I dont value what the players think. Quite the opposite I care a good deal. To the point where I've asked many a player 'Are you actually having fun'.

I've pretty much allways been told 'yes'. Though I've occasionally thought they werent entirely truthful about it. As if I were perhaps goign to kill them off in spite just because they werent enjoying the plotline or what ever. I'm also hardly above splitting up a group into two or what ever. Hell I'll even just run a game for two people.

For what ever reason though I'm horribly reluctant to run it for just -one- person. But I will do it for just two.

I was refering to their choices in play. Putting your foot down before play starts is another matter. When your putting your foot down in play, it indicates a player who is heading down an entirely different path than you. Setting doesn't help you both travel down the same path - setting is just stuff - and people can see all sorts of paths in it and most likely will choose one that doesn't match the GM's path or even other players.

you want to play a really low powered rifts game, play Dinosaur Swamp and allow only the OCC's, weapons and equipment in that book.

Dinosaur swamp is a cool place...the available OCC's and races in the book are pretty low powered which is nice even though the dinosaurs are walking tanks. Would make a good survival safari game.

No, not harsh. I thought you were trying to force him to play. But saying "This is the sort of game I'm running, come over if you want to do it that way, otherwise catch you next time" is fine. In fact I wish I'd started doing that years ago.

Normally we just announce a time and place that we want to play and we show up and do something. This time I outlined the rules for the players whome I can contact in person then I let the others know via messengers or whatnot. I put forth a fairly decent 2 paragraph outline of the game rules and type of game I wanted to run and then I get off the wall questions that I had already made clear weren't allowed.

How do you want a low powered game to go? Could you describe the begining, middle and end?

I would like a low powered game to be entertaining...not simple hack and slash, blasting your way to answers that you want and killing anyone that pretty much breathes if your able.

Beginning = Standard humans for races (nothing augmented and no other races...completely human), only scholar OCC's with the exception of Wilderness Scout. Gear to start is no weaponry, armor or gear that isn't specifically related to your profession. Starting cash is allowed and black market items can be traded for straight cash (1 player ditched his initial starting money). Characters are essentially support for a larger group, for the game I'm running the characters so far are 2 Cyber-Doc's and an Operator (each player had to also create a brief backstory to their character).

The party consists of an 8th level full-conversion cyborg War Knight who just recieved medical leave after getting partially vaporized when he was struck with a plasma grenade while the other memebers of the group are 4 basic grunts (level 3). Basically the idea is to have the characters stay with this small group while it roams the countryside helping the local populace of Warlord Kolodenko's influence. The group is also under the command of the War Knight since none of them has done anything to be accepted into the War Camp as of yet. They were basically hired on the spot when the borg was assigned to a simple pest control/detective mission up in the mountains at a small wood cutting community that consisted of 2 small families and wood processing plant.

Middle = This is where the characters are either already disbanded from the group and pursuing their own goals or aspirations or they are still with the group because they can still get some use out of it. Either way this is pretty much where the characters will use the backstory and personality of their characters to determine the how the ending will be, if there is one.

End = Whatever the characers want, can keep going to be an epic game with their toons or it can be over if they get bored and want to roll new characters. After the initial start of the game the characters are allowed to pretty much do what they want, the game flow is also controlled by the choices that they make and how well they play their characters.

R I F T S = O V E R P O W E R E D

This is a true statement though I feel that Rifts has the most potential out of any of the games unless your rifting from palladium to other game megaverses. The Rifts megaverse allows for the largest variety of gameplay IMO though its probably the most dangerous as well.

Just some general thoughts, maybe laying out clear guidelines up front will clear up any miscommunication. Laying out "this is the power level, this is localized setting summary, these are the acceptable OCCs" can help, because it can also help lay out back-stories; ie, was the character born there, or an immigrant?

From there, the GM has the responsibility of holding to that power level on his/her side of the table. Don't send in NPCs that are too big and bad, don't send in NPCs that do too much. Don't play "god" too much and make people unkillible or events unchangeable -- even if you want your bad guy around for a while, if the player gets that nat 20, say goodbye to the NPC. Even if you regret some of the gear you gave, don't make it just vanish from an unstoppable pickpocket.

Sadly I have (well we all do) a problem with just making assumptions of the relative strength of certain things. The borg party leader is rather beefy considering he's a full conversion with as much MDC as a Glitterboy though he's a Gatsu wanna-be and only carries a giant sized sword and an energy pistol with a shield and retractable vibro sword built into himself. Since the characters are still puny in comparison they are used mostly for helping the villages of the towns that they pay a visit too while the troops relax and provide what security they can to the villagers.

On a less advice note, more personal note, I do think that starting several levels ahead is not a good idea. It encourages powergaming and hack-n-slash too much, and it discourages character growth. Not only does the character learn things from levels 1 through 5, but the player is learning what all the character can do as well. I've had characters that I could not play to their fullest at level 1, but by level 5, I had several tricks up my sleeve just from the experience of trying to outsmart the GM.

After a few hours of play both the players and myself had learned of a who variety of different things that your able to do with the most basic of skills and how hard it is to do things without them. Sadly though, they are still pretty much one sided being nothing but tech junkies and not getting any lore skills general skills like basic electronics or general maintenance etc.

Anyways, thats the update and response to most of your questions. Again thanks for the advice everyone, its most helpfull

Ahulane wrote:Normally we just announce a time and place that we want to play and we show up and do something. This time I outlined the rules for the players whome I can contact in person then I let the others know via messengers or whatnot. I put forth a fairly decent 2 paragraph outline of the game rules and type of game I wanted to run and then I get off the wall questions that I had already made clear weren't allowed.

It costs players nothing to ask outragious questions. So make it cost something - they can ask up to three questions, after that you might not be inviting them anymore.

How do you want a low powered game to go? Could you describe the begining, middle and end?

I would like a low powered game to be entertaining...not simple hack and slash, blasting your way to answers that you want and killing anyone that pretty much breathes if your able.

Beginning = Standard humans for races (nothing augmented and no other races...completely human), only scholar OCC's with the exception of Wilderness Scout. Gear to start is no weaponry, armor or gear that isn't specifically related to your profession. Starting cash is allowed and black market items can be traded for straight cash (1 player ditched his initial starting money). Characters are essentially support for a larger group, for the game I'm running the characters so far are 2 Cyber-Doc's and an Operator (each player had to also create a brief backstory to their character).

The party consists of an 8th level full-conversion cyborg War Knight who just recieved medical leave after getting partially vaporized when he was struck with a plasma grenade while the other memebers of the group are 4 basic grunts (level 3). Basically the idea is to have the characters stay with this small group while it roams the countryside helping the local populace of Warlord Kolodenko's influence. The group is also under the command of the War Knight since none of them has done anything to be accepted into the War Camp as of yet. They were basically hired on the spot when the borg was assigned to a simple pest control/detective mission up in the mountains at a small wood cutting community that consisted of 2 small families and wood processing plant.

Middle = This is where the characters are either already disbanded from the group and pursuing their own goals or aspirations or they are still with the group because they can still get some use out of it. Either way this is pretty much where the characters will use the backstory and personality of their characters to determine the how the ending will be, if there is one.

End = Whatever the characers want, can keep going to be an epic game with their toons or it can be over if they get bored and want to roll new characters. After the initial start of the game the characters are allowed to pretty much do what they want, the game flow is also controlled by the choices that they make and how well they play their characters.

Thanks for the outline.

However, its not very grabby. You can see currently players are grabbing at powers and then unleashing them gleefully. Your current outline doesn't really give them anything to grab except their own goals and asperations. If goals and asperations are the big thing, you might want to bring more focus to them. For example, in the game 'the riddle of steel' characters have spiritual attributes, like Destiny: become king or Love: For my only son. PLAYERS define these, not GM's. Everytime characters pursue these things (even if they fail, as long as they try) they get another bonus dice (up to five, in a dice pool system). These dice are used for skills and combat rolls whenever that spiritual attribute is at stake for the character.

One rather clever spiritual attribute was 'Destiney: To die in a ditch'. Given that he'd get more dice for fighting in a ditch, it'd have to be one epic fight for one grisly ending. Which sounds cool to me

Noon wrote: For example, in the game 'the riddle of steel' characters have spiritual attributes, like Destiny: become king or Love: For my only son. PLAYERS define these, not GM's. Everytime characters pursue these things (even if they fail, as long as they try) they get another bonus dice (up to five, in a dice pool system). These dice are used for skills and combat rolls whenever that spiritual attribute is at stake for the character.

One rather clever spiritual attribute was 'Destiney: To die in a ditch'. Given that he'd get more dice for fighting in a ditch, it'd have to be one epic fight for one grisly ending. Which sounds cool to me

Wow that sounds really cool. Gives me some idea of trying to implement a sort of similar system for Rifts. I allways liked little things like that. SR3 for example has a flaw you can take in CG. Basically it gives you a nice big chunk of points to use to make your starting char extra strong..

Downside is he WILL die within a set period of time. Usually only a few months. There's other similar flaws that I've allways loved. Throwing a whole sort of destiny system into the works also seems rather neat.



Now to Ahulane:
On the subject of the players not having or taking techskills etc. Well.. ok thats their choice. But honestly? Dont hold back from making them suffer for said choices. Throw stuff at them in mockery of this lack. Like.. say a car that needs to be jury-rigged for an easy escape. But none of them have the skills to fix it. So they have to get out the hard way.

Simple things like that. It's not so much in spirit of taunting though, as it is in pushing them in an unsubtle way to simply take the skills. Where uppon they are then rewarded by the presence of such things, rather than mocked.

In Rifts. I cant recall ever having a character that never had any sort of repair skill at all. I've allways taken some sorta jury-rig skill or somethign when ever possible. Because it comes in handy so often it's not funny.

Kesslan wrote:Wow that sounds really cool. Gives me some idea of trying to implement a sort of similar system for Rifts. I allways liked little things like that. SR3 for example has a flaw you can take in CG. Basically it gives you a nice big chunk of points to use to make your starting char extra strong..

Downside is he WILL die within a set period of time. Usually only a few months. There's other similar flaws that I've allways loved. Throwing a whole sort of destiny system into the works also seems rather neat.

Keep in mind it's not a flaw system. For example, if you don't pursue your love: my only son, there is no penalty. However in riddle of steel, even a simple dagger can kill in one hit. You need that bonus to survive, SERIOUSLY, so players pursue their spiritual attributes and they do this during play.

In most flaw systems the system encouranges players to do nothing during play, because they already have the points. Why do anything else when you already have the points? That's where riddle of steel is different - play is about trying to pursue your passions and as a result, survive when normally you'd die (because of the bonus dice - you only earn these in play by pursuing your spiritual attributes). It's almost like the system does the fudging for you, making the heroes survive when they pursue dramatic things

Noon wrote:

Kesslan wrote:Wow that sounds really cool. Gives me some idea of trying to implement a sort of similar system for Rifts. I allways liked little things like that. SR3 for example has a flaw you can take in CG. Basically it gives you a nice big chunk of points to use to make your starting char extra strong..

Downside is he WILL die within a set period of time. Usually only a few months. There's other similar flaws that I've allways loved. Throwing a whole sort of destiny system into the works also seems rather neat.

Keep in mind it's not a flaw system. For example, if you don't pursue your love: my only son, there is no penalty. However in riddle of steel, even a simple dagger can kill in one hit. You need that bonus to survive, SERIOUSLY, so players pursue their spiritual attributes and they do this during play.

In most flaw systems the system encouranges players to do nothing during play, because they already have the points. Why do anything else when you already have the points? That's where riddle of steel is different - play is about trying to pursue your passions and as a result, survive when normally you'd die (because of the bonus dice). It's almost like the system does the fudging for you, making the heroes survive when they pursue dramatic things

Oh I know it's not exactly a flaw system in general but its still the sorta thing that ties in. I mean flaw systems are abused a fair bit (Because the PCs allready start with the points yes) but thats often becasue alot of GMs dont pay any attention to said flaws and actually MAKE them have that trade off.

It was more in bringing up that whole get X bonus points and be fated to die sorta thing that I was getting into.

I wonder though how you could make such a system work for Palladium. Simplest I suppose owuld be to have a sort of 'set goal' system for PCs and they get bonus XP every time their actions align with their 'destiny' or something?

I dunno, I just kinda twigged onto that thing as a nifty way of motivating players. As I find it tends to make for better games. Like one PC I had in a game I ran who was a Psi-Stalker CK. Somewhere in all that was something about being able to get an SDC animal companion.

Well this guy was just dead set on finding 'the perfect pet'. So he spent a supprising ammount of time 'questing' to find an animal companion he liked. Along the way he spawned this whoel little side adventure as a result as I tried to keep it interesting.

I suppose thats anothe reason why I like starting off games abit more or less 'low' to at most 'mid' power. That way the PCs still have plenty of things to work towards. I mean I once had a character that was subtly obsessed with finding some way to become immortal. Without nasty side effects like joining the ranks of the undead (Though he WOULD have gone that far if he had to)

It wasnt something I think too many of the other PCs noticed but it did have a subtle influence on the game. At one point we all got to make a single wish.

So my character (who had lost an arm) wished to be 'restored' since he wanted more to be whole than immortal. THough it was abit of a toss up. One of the other PCs whom teh character was very close to however knew what he wanted as he'd actualy discussed it with her once.

So she uses up her own wish and effectively his 'natural' lifespan gets doubled as a result (From something like 60 years to 120 potential). Rather than chose something for herself.

Which just drove them even closer togeather. That was one of the few things that also started that character down the road towards a 'good' alignment from Aberrant.

Then she died or something like that and he solidly slid back to Aberrant but thats another story.

so the game was pretty much a failure all around...no-one died but they didn't have any fun at all since thinking isn't really something they all like to do. Guess its back to the drawing board...

That or just make a new thread and start picking up ideas to try again. Dont give up on the idea of running the kinda game you were invisioning. I think you just need a few pointers, ideas etc on ways to keep the game going and interesting.

We've all had games that didnt pan out for one reason or another so I'm pretty sure the lot of us around here can come up with some really constructive stuff for you to use.

Karandor wrote:When people play RPGs they generally want to be able to become a hero. Scholar OCCs are very bad for this if they have no one to support in their group that is a PC. Supporting NPCs would just **** them off as they see the NPCs off doing what they wish they could do.

Well I think it really depends on personal taste and how well the game is run. Doing nothing but supporting NPCs though yes does tend to put off people. Yet at the same time it's quite possible to mesh folk with NPCs and not make them feel unwelcome.

Personally when I do that sort of thing I tend to throw the PCs into the regular rank and file, rather than the pure support role. That way there's a good mix of combat and other stuff to do. It also allows for them to work their way up the ranks based on performance etc. So even if they arnt raking in XP sorta thing they still get some measurable sense of progress.

Scholars NEVER get better? Your GM Sucks

Scholars go in search of the weird mysterious artifacts of the ancients and power. Oh look through my years of studious pursuit and exploration I found the hidden temple that now hides the sword of atlantis oh and look there it is. Hmm there seems to be some kind of strange writing all around it. Luckily I know my ancient arcane languages let's see it says here I must recite the Incantation of Innarok before grasping the blade or my soul is sucked. Well geeze is that all? I just so happen to have found that in the LAST hidden ancient temple I happen to have found.

Going forward, is there anything to keep them from gaining new skills in WPs or HTH? Or getting Cybs and boosting the stuff artificially? I'm a Full Conversion Cyborg now, the glasses are just for show. Why can't the Scholar learn magic or the use of magical items... eventually?

Journal Entry 164:
Last night I came across an alien craft. My curiosity over ruled my better judgement and I cautiously approached. Just then, a bright light shone upon me and I was brought into the structure. That was the last I remember before waking up a few hours ago. I seem to have been,... changed somehow. My muscles burn as if dragon's blood coursed through my very veins. My senses are sharper and have not been able to sleep. The slightest noise from the lowliest iinsect causes my ears to twitch with awareness. I am exhausted. What am I becoming?

Or lets just go with the patron aspect; Scholars are by nature, followers of Thoth whether they realize it or not. They seek truth and knowledge and that is Thoth in a deific nutshell. As long as they don't go around being dastarly bastards, Thoth may help them out once in a while if they pursue quests of knowledge diligently and impress the god.

Saying that the Scholar is limited is simply untrue.

What I like about D&D is that you start out relatively worthless and grow into mighty heroes and can even grow into immortals and gods. While I don't particularly care for 1d4 HP for wizards where if you trip badly you die, but Rifts hands you everything right up front. Growth, as per the system, is predictable and dull. You get some more MDC, shiny armor, bigger guns, your 3d6 blast rises to 4d6.

Playing a scholar is asking for encounters with the wierd and powerful. Just like the Vagabond ect. not to mention access to well everything. Mr Scholar right no threat you can go on ahead. mr combat god with the BFG? uhuh sir (snap) I am going to have to ask you to spread them,.. please. You are unassuming and non threatening. People who normally give PCs problems will most likely over look you for your fellows who have not yet wiped the blood from their armor because polishing is just something they don't think of doing

rant rant rant ect ect ect blah blah blah blah I'll stop now

Karandor wrote:A low powered game with only scholars sucks because there's no room for improvement. Your lowly scholar will NEVER be good in combat. Let them be some man at arms, magic or psionic classes and then make them earn their weapons, armour and other stuff. If they all choose combat classes with few skills make them make those skill rolls and screw em up bad if they fail them. A scholar can be a boon beside powerful allies to help them with navigation, knowing monster weaknesses or helping maintain equipment. Not to mention the fact that there are many languages in rifts that can become large barriers.

When people play RPGs they generally want to be able to become a hero. Scholar OCCs are very bad for this if they have no one to support in their group that is a PC. Supporting NPCs would just **** them off as they see the NPCs off doing what they wish they could do.

The scholar campaign, sounds fun actually! The goal of the campaign is to go out and explore the funky side of Rifts Earth. Alien artifacts, lost works from mankind's golden age, unusual applications of hyper-tech or hyper-magic. I could see it done one of several ways.

1) The 'Doctor Who' method, whereupon everywhere the scholars go, the problems are solved by being generally smarter than everyone else. Expect menaces with a lot of interesting weaknesses, and adventures hinged around finding out the true nature of things because The Golach may seem an MDC menace from another world, but in reality they're the psychic projections of the missing child who stumbled upon an old Psynetic experiment gone wrong. All they need to do is find the generator and shut it down, all the while evading the horrific Golach.

2) The 'power scholars' method, whereupon the party slowly builds up artifacts and power through equipment and connections. Weak at first, but only a rogue scholar has the knowledge of history to know where the old USA kept its prototype Glitterboy II's, and only someone with a high level of literacy could, upon finding these suits, read the accompanying data on piloting and performance. These guys look for the most rare and unusual items around, it doesn't seem odd that some of them would be incredibly powerful.

3) The 'on the run' method. Here is where the party, very early on, gets something big, scholarly, and interesting (like The Declaration of Independence!) and they have to protect it while something like The CS tries to hunt them down. Expect climaxes like sneaking into Chi Town and reading the thing aloud on CS airwaves.

asmodeus456 wrote:Well like KillWatch said, thats not really true. For them in the game I was trying to do ya they weren't really into it and basically moped around all bummed out. But a scholar/adventurer class is where the role playing aspect comes into play which is what I'm after. Giving them a combat class and they'll just go crazy like in the above paragraph.

Definately sounds like the wrong shoe for you my friend.

I mean I"m all for the odd somewhat munchie game. But even I dont bend rules that bloody much. Not only that but I get tired of such games real fast if the GM isnt particulairly good at running a 'high power game'. I actualy want a challenge and some degree of lethality.

I mean I've had some really twinky characters in the past, but even to date, my most twinked out one was still SDC, still highly vulnerable to magic and reasonably so to psionics. And as such still could easily find himself in rather threatning situations....

Such as the one time he ran almost head first into a master vampire who then hypnotized him and bit him.

Fun times.

just relized i posted on an old account i had created a while back lol. whoops

well I just got some new books in the other day and were playing in a bit tonight. I got basically all the adventure books for some more story oriented content so we'll see what they think of those books. plus there's alot of info in them that i never even knew about.

Ahulane wrote:just relized i posted on an old account i had created a while back lol. whoops

well I just got some new books in the other day and were playing in a bit tonight. I got basically all the adventure books for some more story oriented content so we'll see what they think of those books. plus there's alot of info in them that i never even knew about.

Man, you know that's not going to work - their not going to osmotically absorb your excitement then know what to do at the gaming table. I've tried this way back in my gaming history.

Their going to do the same old thing as usualy, or if they don't have the power to do that, mope around again.

If you don't give them instructions laid out for them, they'll try to do the same thing as they normally have fun with. Some adventure books wont change that.

Man, you know that's not going to work - their not going to osmotically absorb your excitement then know what to do at the gaming table. I've tried this way back in my gaming history.

Their going to do the same old thing as usualy, or if they don't have the power to do that, mope around again.

If you don't give them instructions laid out for them, they'll try to do the same thing as they normally have fun with. Some adventure books wont change that.

well ya it didn't really change much, they just skimmed through them and that was about it.

We used the Adventure Guide for City creation rules and made the militia portion of the city for a private personal merc group. Hack and Slash (who is GMing the game) made a Mystic Knight of the White Rose, our power gamer made an Atlantean Monster Hunter which was pretty cool but still really strong. My character was an Elemental Fusionist but then a few hours into the game I relized that he's almost useless both for combat and for our city because we have 2 Earth Warlocks and a Bio-Wizard (our city is a ruin that we had stumbled upon in the middle of an Alien Jungle), so I just made him an NPC that likes to tunnel and mine outside of town and made a Magebane for my new OCC...but now I have to think up new goals for him since all he can do is fight.

There is a middle ground between low-powered and high powered, characters are competant but still have to watch their backs or they're toast. Many people playign Rifts forget about the middle ground.

Middle ground is generally the most fun for a group that has mixed wishes.

New game thats being run is kinda middle ground but its finding something that fits is the problem I have. My 1st choice was a Rogue Scholar once again but then I just got ridiculed and basically told that we didn't need another one since we had 16 or so people out of the 120 people in the city that we could give scholar OCC's to. We have like 7 mages or so varying in levels from 1-7 plus our leader who is a level 9 Chiang-Ku stone master. My choices for other OCC's before the Magebane was going to be a Diabolist or Summoner but they were shot down quicker than the scholar

Everyone is different and we all have our own standards of how we prefer to play and run our games and just because they dont agree with what you would prefer dosent mean you have to give in. Sure everyone wants to start with every advantage they can get but part of the game is building towards those acheivments to make it worth it. Carrot and the stick. They think OOOOOOO i want the shiny rune weapon and i think i should start with it so i can dominate. Wheres the fun in having it given to you though? Why do you have it in the first place? Is there back story? Why hasent somone taken it from you? How long till somone biger and stronger till some does take it for you? Make them earn it and it will be all the sweeter.

Arise. ARISE! ARISE YE DEAD THREAD!!!


HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!