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If the Mechanoids are mostly machine then why not create a computer virsus to kill them??

Because their computers are actually biological.

yeah but still you could create a biological virsus why has no race tried this??

MrMom wrote:yeah but still you could create a biological virsus why has no race tried this??

Because they're all in fully environmental suits at all times.

ok so if they are in full environmental suits all of the time then how do they breed?

your missing the point if they breed then they are vunerable at some point

A virus has been used. It's probably the most significant single event in Mechanoid history. Remember the whole AbM versus Mech schism?

no i dont remember that i dont have any of the mechoinds books. Had a flood that wiped out most of my stuff just now starting to recover

MrMom wrote:no i dont remember that i dont have any of the mechoinds books. Had a flood that wiped out most of my stuff just now starting to recover

Long story short:

-Mechanoids are all evil.
-One day, some mechanoids decide not to be so evil.
-Evil mechanoids and good mechanoids fight.
-After caching a couple "pure" (evil) leaders safely, evil mechanoids unleash virus that whipes out the entire race, good and evil.*
-After the others are gone, the cached leaders reemerge and rebuild.

*It is suggested the evil ones do this. Technically it is not known, but the book implies it.

well if it worked once why not again?

MrMom wrote:well if it worked once why not again?

Well, it took a Mechanoid to develop a virus to kill a Mechanoid, it probably would take the same thing again.

The entire race from which Mechanoids developed has been obliterated, and Mech's aren't exactly prone to submitting themselves to laboratory style test conditions to find their weaknesses. The knowledge simply isn't out there to create what's necessary to whipe out their sentient computer-selves.

I'm sure some folks are trying, and some folks may be actively developing such things, but as of yet, it hasn't happened again.

wasnt archie 3 kind of buddy buddy with the mechonids so maybe he would have that info

MrMom wrote:wasnt archie 3 kind of buddy buddy with the mechonids so maybe he would have that info

That's only partly true.

Archie 3's complex was seized by the Mechanoids, against Archie's will. Realizing they could and would toast his sorry butt if he resisted, he offered "friendship," and as a fellow machine-conscience, they accepted him to an extent.

Archie 3 despises the Mech's, and is actively trying to destroy them. The only way he has been able to do so though is to secretly build, and then whipe out the plans for, a set of power armor and robots for Hagan to use elsewhere in his fight against them.

Archie purged his data files on the units, as the Mech's now have access to his memory. Nothing suggests he has access to theirs, though. The moment he tried to do some work against them, they would know.

i know it is funny to make jokes and all but the answers i get that are serious help me run games. So please keep the jokes to a Min. I had a player ask me about virsus and stuff that is why i ask.

MrMom wrote:i know it is funny to make jokes and all but the answers i get that are serious help me run games. So please keep the jokes to a Min. I had a player ask me about virsus and stuff that is why i ask.

That there has been so little joking in this thread is amazing, count yourself lucky

We're a free wheeling group around here, and thread-jacking isn't just a sport, it's an art.

Thanks for the warning

MrMom wrote:Thanks for the warning

You bet.

Hope the info above has been helpful so far.

thanks it has on a side note I dont see a lot of Biological warfare in the rifts books I wonder why the Big K doesnt use it more often

Bio warfare is a waaaay advanced technology, requiring obscenely huge dedications of resources, both intellectual and physical. In RIFTS, there aren't a lot of groups with the resources available to devote to that. Survival comes first and foremost, and there are a lot of ways to kill things that are a thousand times easier than spending your entire capital budget for several years running developing a biological weapon to attack something that may not still be a threat when the research is completed.

In RIFTS as well, a bio weapon won't be very effective against enemies on the battlefield, as 95% of them will be in some form of EBA. Bio's would mostly be useful for slaughtering civilian populations, which a nuke will do more quickly, for a fraction the cost.

I agree that it comes down to numbers but in the long run which is cheaper giveing something a cold that it will take back to it home and kill the rest or have to make an inf. amout of weapons to supply your inf. amout of troops not to mention feeding them and training them and clothing them.

Also you say it is very advanced but we can do it now in real life so if they are more advanced than us in rifts then they should be able to do it

MrMom wrote:I agree that it comes down to numbers but in the long run which is cheaper giveing something a cold that it will take back to it home and kill the rest or have to make an inf. amout of weapons to supply your inf. amout of troops not to mention feeding them and training them and clothing them.

Same theory as credit.

It may be cheaper to buy something all at once, but the resources just aren't there, so you pay more over time, by paying installments. Bio weapons might be the cheapest in absolute terms, but the continuous over-time expenditure is what is affordable.

The "cheaper in the long term" argument also is based on logic that does not work in RIFTS. It is based on our real-world human understanding, where the only enemy we'd be tailoring a bio-weap for is another human. They are very very inefficient uses of resources when in a world like RIFTS, where there are countless races, countless foes, and you never know what you're going to be facing next.

Scenario:
Country attacked by Mechs, so it develops bio-weapons to fight them. Bio weapon is unleashed to great success. Cheers all around. Now another enemy springs up, and you're at ground zero again.

Country attacked by Mechs, so it develops energy/nuclear/kinetic/explosive weapon to fight them. E/N/K/E weapon unleashed to great success. Cheers all around. Now another enemy springs up, and you're already prepared, because unlike a bio-weap, the aforementioned items kill pretty much anything.


If you're really interested in biologics on a non-WMD scale, you should check out Bio-Wizardry in RIFTS: Atlantis.

MrMom wrote:Also you say it is very advanced but we can do it now in real life so if they are more advanced than us in rifts then they should be able to do it

In some ways they are more advanced, but in many ways they are less so.

What are the literacy rates for the RIFTS world? What proportion of the population has the education necessary to participate in arms development? What percentage of the population can truly comprehend the world around it on more than a survival level?

Very very small numbers are the answers to all those questions. Very very small numbers indeed. Much was lost when the rifts came, and much has not been found again. It is not the few elite that measure a society's level of advancement, but the whole.

Ok your country is attacked by mechs. you use E/K weapons to kill the invadeing force you do everyone cheers but wait here comes the second wave not you have to do it again but your man power is down from the first wave. Evenutally you lose if they have more numbers than you.

Ok your country is attacked by mechs. you make a bio weapon and let some of them escape bace to their home now they are all sick and soon die so no more waves of Mechs.

Not all aliens would be consider a threat only the ones that have great numbers and are trying to kill you. some poor alien farmer is stranded on your world leave him till last.

MrMom wrote: Evenutally you lose if they have more numbers than you.

Numbers aren't everything. Yes, manpower will be reduced, but that is the same in any conflict. If you unleash a bio-weap that's slow enough acting to let individuals escape to infect others, it isn't going to stop them in combat. You're still going to need other types of weapons to fight them with.

Ok your country is attacked by mechs. you make a bio weapon and let some of them escape bace to their home now they are all sick and soon die so no more waves of Mechs.

You "let some escape" implies you're killing the rest? With what? That first wave will overwhelm you and destroy you instead of fleeing, if you don't have sufficient weaponry to whipe them out. Sure, they may die horrible bio-induced deaths shortly thereafter, but the victory will be kind of hollow if they butchered you first.

The Mechanoids on Earth are just a tiny fragment of a lost group, with no way home. A true Mechanoid assault of the type it seems you're talking about, comes in numbers several times the entire population of RIFTS Earth. They don't exactly want to "escape," or come in "waves." They're there to kill you dead, and they will bring sufficient hurt to make it so the first time.

Not all aliens would be consider a threat only the ones that have great numbers and are trying to kill you.

This is RIFTS. There are many things trying to kill you.

Yes, there are lots of them.

No, they won't wait for you to develop a new weapon, they'll attack you as soon as you're weakened from the previous fight.

Also, if you're somebody like the CS, all aliens are considered a threat.

I'm not saying bio-warfare wouldn't be a decent choice against the Mechanoids - it probably would do wonders. Thing is, no civilization that has the ability to develop what is necessary is free enough of other threats to devote the resources to do so. Whipe out the Mechanoids, and maybe Atlantis comes knocking. Whipe them out, and goodness knows who is behind them, waiting to hit you.

it would be stupid not to have an army that was equiped but you cant worry about what you neighbor might or might not do. If your neighbor attacks you then they leave their back door open for someone to attack them. unless they have overwhelming numbers all of the super powers have locked themselvs into a kind of stalemate. unless they start building up on your front which you would see.

MrMom wrote:it would be stupid not to have an army that was equiped

Precisely.

Devote the resources needed for a massive bio-weapons program to developing that, and your army would be sorely lacking.

but you cant worry about what you neighbor might or might not do.

Isn't this entire thread about worrying what a neighbor is doing? Isn't that the point of the army we just agreed would be stupid not to have?

not really if i have an army that could give you some seirous trouble then you wont attack because it would take to long to beat me. even if you know you are going to win while your army is attacking me then you leave yourself open to attack. If you develop a bio weapon then you dont have to send your army to attack me and you are safe behind your army . So to speak.

A virus to kill mechanoids...

Sure, why not? It's just that whomever designed it would need to be WAAAAAYYY tech savvy. I've seen Independence day, and they say a guy with a Macintosh will be able to design a computer virus to cripple an alien race. ...... I didn't buy it then either.

Since mechanoids love biological and electronic warfare too (they'd use viruses to kill cybernetic humanoid races), in order to design one they'd not seen before, you'd need capacities they don't have (How do you surprise a race with biological warfare when they think Ebola is 'funny'). But, for example, the worlds first TW computer virus, that would seem plausible...

Then again, a Techno-Wizard computer virus, something diabolic and evil, I'd have an entire campaign about what a badboy like that could do.


However, here's my kicker on viruses. The worst viruses in History were able to kill.... 10% of the population, which is enough to cripple a population... but a loooong way from total extermination. Biological warfare doesn't work as well as one would think. And computer viruses aren't the unstoppable cybernetic plague either (they annoy, but didn't cripple cities).

Best way to kill Mechanoids in our campaigns, well fastest is to pierce the containment chamber. The Mechanoids start to suffocated and typically flail around on the ground unable to breath.

Only other way is to help the Mechanoid ApM mutants in their war with the Mechanoids. Best way to fight fire is with fire sometimes.

MrMom wrote:ok so if they are in full environmental suits all of the time then how do they breed?

IIRC they clone themselves. This, on the other hand, make them more vulnerable to a virus attack, because it is more difficult for them to have an/several individuals with resistance to the virus.

MrMom wrote:thanks it has on a side note I dont see a lot of Biological warfare in the rifts books I wonder why the Big K doesnt use it more often

Well, there is the NBC skill, and in the Xiticix invasion WB there is an adventure idea regarding a group of scientist with a virus/substance they claim is able to kill the big bugs.

mobuttu wrote:

MrMom wrote:thanks it has on a side note I dont see a lot of Biological warfare in the rifts books I wonder why the Big K doesnt use it more often

Well, there is the NBC skill, and in the Xiticix invasion WB there is an adventure idea regarding a group of scientist with a virus/substance they claim is able to kill the big bugs.

There was also an adventure in the Rifts Adventure Book involving someone who created/found a bio weapon of some sort. Basically supposed to be lethal to just about anything that isn't supernatural.
Sort of like a "Kill them all, let the local divine beings sort them out" type of weapon.

What about 3G phase rifles?

GhostKnight wrote:What about 3G phase rifles?

Go through Mechanoids like Vibro-blades through third-graders. Mechanoids, however, have robots.

MrNexx wrote:

GhostKnight wrote:What about 3G phase rifles?

Go through Mechanoids like Vibro-blades through third-graders. Mechanoids, however, have robots.

Even then, there is the problem of shooting the right place on a Mechanoid to actually hit the actual mechanoid organism (called shot vs. target under cover?). It would be like hitting a bullseye on a dart board hidden behind a sheet of paper.

On the subject of robots, I wonder if the Mechanoids have any medical robots just in case of some sort of mothership wide plague scenerio...

"Hitting a bulls-eye hidden behind a sheet of metal"? Most Mechanoids are the same size as humans, mass wise. I say use the same rules for trying to hit the cockpit of a robot vehicle to shotting right at the Mechanoid organism.

R Ditto wrote:Even then, there is the problem of shooting the right place on a Mechanoid to actually hit the actual mechanoid organism (called shot vs. target under cover?). It would be like hitting a bullseye on a dart board hidden behind a sheet of paper.

True, but the containment chambers are most likely inside the main body as that's the area with the most armor.

R Ditto wrote:Even then, there is the problem of shooting the right place on a Mechanoid to actually hit the actual mechanoid organism (called shot vs. target under cover?).

I seem to recall there were rules for hitting the chambers. Called shoot + penalties and high MDC structure, weren't there?

DamonS wrote:However, here's my kicker on viruses. The worst viruses in History were able to kill.... 10% of the population, which is enough to cripple a population... but a loooong way from total extermination. Biological warfare doesn't work as well as one would think. And computer viruses aren't the unstoppable cybernetic plague either (they annoy, but didn't cripple cities).

Think again Hotshot.

The Black Death killed somwhere between 1/3rd and 2/3rds og the population of Europe. Think about that between 25 and 50 million dead out of a population of aproximently 75 million. if your faceing a few billion Mechanoids that kind of attrition looks very good. It looks even better if you can slip a team with a virus sample into the Mechanoid cloneing vats.

as far as how simple it would be to make a Bioweapon. Look into how Unit 731 created their bioweapons. the techniques they were using were crude even for the time.

Rockwolf66 wrote:

DamonS wrote:However, here's my kicker on viruses. The worst viruses in History were able to kill.... 10% of the population, which is enough to cripple a population... but a loooong way from total extermination. Biological warfare doesn't work as well as one would think. And computer viruses aren't the unstoppable cybernetic plague either (they annoy, but didn't cripple cities).

Think again Hotshot.

The Black Death killed somwhere between 1/3rd and 2/3rds og the population of Europe. Think about that between 25 and 50 million dead out of a population of aproximently 75 million. if your faceing a few billion Mechanoids that kind of attrition looks very good. It looks even better if you can slip a team with a virus sample into the Mechanoid cloneing vats.

as far as how simple it would be to make a Bioweapon. Look into how Unit 731 created their bioweapons. the techniques they were using were crude even for the time.

Not to nitpick, but the bubonic plague was caused by bacteria. Your rebuttal would be better supported by a comparison to the 1918 Spanish Flu.

How about going after the Mechanoids with a blend of nasty bacteria that produce toxins and enzymes and also act as a carrier for a virus made to taking down the Mechanoids.

Since they seem to almost always be in fairly 'sterile' environments, it seems that any sort of bacteria or virus they have not encountered before would be potentially deadly to them. Rifts Earth, for example, and other planets that are visited by many beings, could be a cornucopia of nasty things the Mechanoids might not have any defense against.

In HU/AU/AUGG there is stuff relating genetic engineering, and you never know what kind of nasty stuff some of those aliens could come up with.

Maybe plant aliens have some sort of illness that does little to them but will do nasty stuff to 'meat based' aliens.
Or better (or worse) yet, maybe one of the mineral aliens has some sort of stuff (or critter) that actually can eat through MDC metals.

I can see it now, a small trained rocky buck toothed critter with a bio-bomb on it, it eats into the Mechanoid units quickly, the package goes off when the sensor on it detects the Mechanoids life support maintained atmosphere, the critter goes bonkers due to being startled and causing damage to internal systems of the Mechanoid body, then it wanders off unharmed while the Mechanoid organism is turning funny colors.

Not to burst everyones bubble, but a splugorth went to war on the Mechanoids to save the Kittani. They have a galactic empire. They couldn't do what you are suggesting - even with bio-wizard weapons (which the Mechanoids do not understand, what with them not being mages)...a few individuals on a backwater planet (such as rifts earth or GideonE) will not be able to do anything useful.

You would be better off trying to duplicate the original doomsday weapon.

J. Lionheart wrote:Bio warfare is a waaaay advanced technology, requiring obscenely huge dedications of resources, both intellectual and physical.

Actually a nuke is much more expensive to produce than a bio weapon. A good example is Iraq.

In RIFTS as well, a bio weapon won't be very effective against enemies on the battlefield, as 95% of them will be in some form of EBA. Bio's would mostly be useful for slaughtering civilian populations, which a nuke will do more quickly, for a fraction the cost.

My take on RIFTS is that the majority of nations/kingdoms are not technologically advanced or welathy enough to equip all their soldiers with environmental armors. Majority of troops would be ill-equipped to handle such a threat.

The biggest problem with bio weapons in the RIFTS setting is that there are a diverse number of aliens and it would be uneconomical for any nation to delve into such daunting task.

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Rockwolf66 wrote:

DamonS wrote:However, here's my kicker on viruses. The worst viruses in History were able to kill.... 10% of the population, which is enough to cripple a population... but a loooong way from total extermination. Biological warfare doesn't work as well as one would think. And computer viruses aren't the unstoppable cybernetic plague either (they annoy, but didn't cripple cities).

Think again Hotshot.

The Black Death killed somwhere between 1/3rd and 2/3rds og the population of Europe. Think about that between 25 and 50 million dead out of a population of aproximently 75 million. if your faceing a few billion Mechanoids that kind of attrition looks very good. It looks even better if you can slip a team with a virus sample into the Mechanoid cloneing vats.

as far as how simple it would be to make a Bioweapon. Look into how Unit 731 created their bioweapons. the techniques they were using were crude even for the time.

Not to nitpick, but the bubonic plague was caused by bacteria. Your rebuttal would be better supported by a comparison to the 1918 Spanish Flu.

yeah I'll nitpick.... can anyone double check those figures from a source other than Wikipedia?

Admittedly, the spanish flu one makes my point, but I still don't trust the Wiki. Never have, and never will until Wiki has some concerted effort to fact-check everything in it.

DamonS wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Rockwolf66 wrote:

DamonS wrote:However, here's my kicker on viruses. The worst viruses in History were able to kill.... 10% of the population, which is enough to cripple a population... but a loooong way from total extermination. Biological warfare doesn't work as well as one would think. And computer viruses aren't the unstoppable cybernetic plague either (they annoy, but didn't cripple cities).

Think again Hotshot.

The Black Death killed somwhere between 1/3rd and 2/3rds og the population of Europe. Think about that between 25 and 50 million dead out of a population of aproximently 75 million. if your faceing a few billion Mechanoids that kind of attrition looks very good. It looks even better if you can slip a team with a virus sample into the Mechanoid cloneing vats.

as far as how simple it would be to make a Bioweapon. Look into how Unit 731 created their bioweapons. the techniques they were using were crude even for the time.

Not to nitpick, but the bubonic plague was caused by bacteria. Your rebuttal would be better supported by a comparison to the 1918 Spanish Flu.

yeah I'll nitpick.... can anyone double check those figures from a source other than Wikipedia?

Admittedly, the spanish flu one makes my point, but I still don't trust the Wiki. Never have, and never will until Wiki has some concerted effort to fact-check everything in it.

I always remember from school, one out of three died from the Plague. One of those random factoids that are one day gonna make me a mint on Jeopardy. Take it with a grain of salt as to the accuracy of records kept from that era.

The Michaelangelo Virus was a nasty one. It didn't just corrupt data, it actualluy caused hardware damage. One of my test machines lost a HD to it (as near as I can figure it sped up the hard drive then forced the old DOS "park" command and slammed the heads). The problem with computer viruses to take down a mechanized civilization (besides coding a virus in "mechanoid computer lanuage") is surely they have the equivalent of active anti-virus scans. A few systems may go down, but not the whole network. Even the most widespread virus only infects maybe a hundred thousand systems world wide (much fewer prior to broadband internet), and then not for long.

Besides, a computer virus and a biological virus are similar in name only. A biological virus is just trying to live and reproduce with no malicious intent. A computer virus is desigend to steal data, take control of machines, corrupt data, manipulate resources, etc. But I digress.

scotrn wrote:Note that Mechanoids do not reproduce via physical male/female contact, they are genetically engineered and cloned (genetic engineering would most likely be used to make them immune to the virus).

The cloning vats are actually where a biological agent would be most useful. If you could seriously damage their ability reproduce, then you would slow down the next wave. Since the first wave is essentially in EBA, I doubt that bio-warfare will be useful at all against them.

The idea of wiping Mechanoids out with a plague wouldn't work. They've gone through whole galaxies, and even if nobody's ever tried to use biological warfare against them they'll still have had to deal with a staggering number of potentially lethal diseases. They'll have the capacity to develop cures and innoculations for just about anything you can throw at 'em, and emergency quaruntine procedures to follow if some of them get infected by something nasty.