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So I find myself in an interesting position. I've been playing and GMing PFRPG since the first printing, but I've never had a player run a Summoner. I've used them as NPCs and even major villians a number of times, but I'm finding that having one as a PC is far different. NPCs don't really need campaign hooks and you can balance them easily.

What I'm looking for is some ideas for campaign elements that will jazz a Summoner player. She's the only source of magic in the party -- no other mages or clerics -- so a little bit of tailoring to suit is fine, but I have to admit I'm at a bit of a loss right now as to how to best integrate the character without her getting out of control.

Ideas?

Prep time is key.

Every circle a Summoner makes takes prep-time. Some things take a lot of time, some take only a little. The important thing (as GM) is to make sure the time available is sufficient for the Summoner to use her powers in an effective way. Give an excuse to use non-summoning circles (I'm guessing the party is selfish or good, rather than evil), so the player gets used to the idea that she can do things other than summon. Allow hints of a specific type of foe or challenge to slip to the group's ears, so she feels like she can take preventative action in the form of power or protection circles, or can summon the kind of creature needed to help out.

Prep-time also can be used the other way. Part of keeping it from "getting out of control" is to make sure you are regulating what circles she uses - without her knowing you're doing so (that pisses players off). If there is a challenge you really want them to face, but which could be easily defeated with a circle, ensure there isn't adequate time prior to facing the challenge to make that circle. Teach the Summoner that she can do things other than use circles, just like the rest of the group, and sometimes will do better with her own skills than with some minion carrying out orders.

Components are key.

The other thing every Summoner needs for circles is components. Without proper components, no magic. This is a rigid rule that can, in a pinch, allow a GM to completely bar a given unbalancing circle, or provide an unspoken hint to the party. If you don't want them using a Circle of Wonder, do not have a unicorn horn available. If a Circle of Invisibility will be critical, the players may run across some powdered toad bones. Never tell them "you can not do this" or "you should do this," simply allow them to realize, through doing a quick inventory, that some things are possible, and others are not.

Summoners aren't easy to deal with - the line between being the weakest party member and the strongest party member is hard to find sometimes, and can swing back and forth rapidly depending on the situation. Don't trap them in a place where they can't use their powers, but make sure you don't give them carte blanche to do anything and everything within their potential whenever they feel like it. Make them set goals and work for them, and then when they do get their hands on the necessary stuff, they will ration it, think before acting, and base choices on situational necessity rather than random whim.

My name is Mark Hall, and I endorse this message. ^^^^^

Hey Lionheart -- appreciate the detailed reply

The prep time issue is second nature, but the components issue is great advice that hits on years of my own personal game predjudice. See, I've never been willing to bother with spell components in any game system. I just didn't want to do the bookkeeping, and in D&D, for example, doing away with them entirely never really becomes a problem.

That said, I really like the idea if using spell components as campaign elements in and of themselves -- subtle clues, motivators, and balancers. In fact, purely by accident I've already set the stage for some of this by introducing a spell component buy gone awry in the first session. Your ideas give me some thoughts on how to develop interestingly from there.

Time to cast off the shackles of those old notions, huh? Thanks.

MrNexx wrote:My name is Mark Hall, and I endorse this message. ^^^^^

Paid for by the MrNexx for Grand Arbiter of Palladium Magic committee.

Yisterwald wrote:Hey Lionheart -- appreciate the detailed reply

The prep time issue is second nature, but the components issue is great advice that hits on years of my own personal game predjudice. See, I've never been willing to bother with spell components in any game system. I just didn't want to do the bookkeeping, and in D&D, for example, doing away with them entirely never really becomes a problem.

That said, I really like the idea if using spell components as campaign elements in and of themselves -- subtle clues, motivators, and balancers. In fact, purely by accident I've already set the stage for some of this by introducing a spell component buy gone awry in the first session. Your ideas give me some thoughts on how to develop interestingly from there.

Time to cast off the shackles of those old notions, huh? Thanks.

Glad it was helpful

Components are definitely one of those things that are frustrating to work with sometimes. In D&D, where nearly every spell seems to take components, I don't like them either. It feels overdone. In Palladium however, there are schools of magic with components, and schools without. For those with components, it is an integral part of the use of that class, and is a calculated part of their balance in the game.

I'm very much a fan of subtle plot hints and nudging, as deep inside, every GM wants the players to go the way they expected (and planned for). Delighted to hear that component use in that fashion will fit what you've already got going in the campaign! Inexperienced GM's rail-road their players, or simply give a parental "because I said so," which cause problems in the group. Experienced GM's can steer their players just as easily as the rail-roading GM, but leave their players feeling like they came up with the idea themselves, and are totally brilliant for doing so ::Grins::

Good luck!

Summoning is tricky for the player - great for the GM! Not just the ritual of summoning but commanding the creatures.

Elementals take the literal mean of comands and are the easiest to use.

Demons/devils etc. twist everything and are aware of summoner sand their tricks etc - I had a gargoylite under my control in one game who stole and swallowed my gems so that i couldnt summon anything else ( cos he thought id kill him when id had enough of him, which was true) so I waited days before my components were "returned".

Also had a kukulcan who was Very powerful but good aligned and wasnt much fun for an evil character to control and actual cast globe of silence on himself so he couldnt hear my commands (down to 2 HP before I managed to write down "cancel u spells" and show it to him!)
Moral of the story - U need to get ur initial commands right!

Lets not even talk about faeries...

Oh, and try summoning a devil and a demon at the same time commanding them not to hurt each other - laugh a minute!

Lots of fun for GM - not so much for Summoner

i just looked at the rules, they are too rigid, so lets cut and paste.

the time to draw a circle is 15 minutes, (simple circles of protection take 5) thats 60 combat rounds (or 20 for simple).
the GM may want to cut that back based on the fact that a skill will be used to deturmin quality of wark and will increase the summoners skill as s/he levels. (I could give times but other GMs will have a different opinion and I think each cirlce should have it's own time based on complexity)

so, using the mystic symbols skill from the summoner OCC as a base (the skill and progession may need to be tweeked by the GM), we can set penalties for a rushed job or bonuses to taking more time. a rushed job to draw a circle in half the time may be -40% and a failed roll means you get to roll on the random bad stuff table on page 136 PF 2nd ed.
also if you are in a combat situation, added stress may add penalty.

had to make some of that up on the fly as I typed because I could not find any established "rush job" rules and the base numbers did not feel right for this sort of application.

regards

Yisterwald wrote:Hey Lionheart -- appreciate the detailed reply

The prep time issue is second nature, but the components issue is great advice that hits on years of my own personal game predjudice. See, I've never been willing to bother with spell components in any game system. I just didn't want to do the bookkeeping, and in D&D, for example, doing away with them entirely never really becomes a problem.

That said, I really like the idea if using spell components as campaign elements in and of themselves -- subtle clues, motivators, and balancers. In fact, purely by accident I've already set the stage for some of this by introducing a spell component buy gone awry in the first session. Your ideas give me some thoughts on how to develop interestingly from there.

Time to cast off the shackles of those old notions, huh? Thanks.

I have never been in favor of making things too easy on players. Regaining spells takes time, one reason I like PPE healing in Palladium. And the fact that they might need to go to great lengths to get components just makes sense. Think about all the nasty, smelly stuff they would have to carry around "just in case". Spell components generally have a shelf life, also.

Mitchbrock wrote: I remember in one campaign he treated his gargoyle more like a sidekick or a fellow adventure instead of a slave.

As well he should.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

Mitchbrock wrote: I remember in one campaign he treated his gargoyle more like a sidekick or a fellow adventure instead of a slave.

As well he should.

What! Who's gonna wash his feet?

I rarely see Summoners played, mainly because of the Battle of Wills, mostly I see Diabolists who learn Circle Magic.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

Mitchbrock wrote: I remember in one campaign he treated his gargoyle more like a sidekick or a fellow adventure instead of a slave.

As well he should.

What! Who's gonna wash his feet?

I rarely see Summoners played, mainly because of the Battle of Wills, mostly I see Diabolists who learn Circle Magic.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

Mitchbrock wrote: I remember in one campaign he treated his gargoyle more like a sidekick or a fellow adventure instead of a slave.

As well he should.

What! Who's gonna wash his feet?

I rarely see Summoners played, mainly because of the Battle of Wills, mostly I see Diabolists who learn Circle Magic.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

Mitchbrock wrote: I remember in one campaign he treated his gargoyle more like a sidekick or a fellow adventure instead of a slave.

As well he should.

What! Who's gonna wash his feet?

I rarely see Summoners played, mainly because of the Battle of Wills, mostly I see Diabolists who learn Circle Magic.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

Mitchbrock wrote: I remember in one campaign he treated his gargoyle more like a sidekick or a fellow adventure instead of a slave.

As well he should.

What! Who's gonna wash his feet?

I rarely see Summoners played, mainly because of the Battle of Wills, mostly I see Diabolists who learn Circle Magic. Strange since I feel that Summoners are the most interesting and fun OCC's there are, besides Necro's. Now THOSE are fun to play. Even when cursed with goodness.

What! Who's gonna wash his feet?

That is definitely an interesting visual.

Dear gods, what was with all the multiple posts???