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would a black hole have any effect on an open rift

Hrmm.. good question.

I think the response of an explosion is probably likely. WIth the blast depending on the size of the rift and the black hole. A tiny rift opening in a large black hole likely woudnt even be noticed.

But at some point one would disrupt the other horribly I'd say. Then it depends on where along the black hoel the rift appears. I mean right at the entrance? Not much.

At the 'end'? Again probably not much.

Right in the middle though? Where the pull and crush is greatest. Where the true power of the blackhole is held? Yeah probably a Kaboom. A very very big Kaboom assuming the Rift was big enough to 'disrupt' the core. Or maybe it gets turned into a theoretical 'white hole' where things are suddenly being spewed out.

Eitherway I see nothing good comming from this.

Please remember that a black hole is not a "hole" in space per se, but is rather a super dense collapsed star. It has 3 dimensions (like a ball) and physical mass (science believes).

Think about this: What if the super strong gravitational pull of a black hole warps ley lines, just like it can absorbe even light (light having properties of both a particle and a wave)?

Perhaps instead of disrupting the rift, the black hole could create a super rift by pulling ley lines together into a nexus

Just WILD speculation here hehe

Sorry folks magic (ppe) is generated by life etc, so when a star dies the ley lines in that solar system reallign into a new configuration. No rifts can open in a black hole as there are no ley lines.

Then how is magic done in Dimensions where there is nothing or how would you escape from said Dimensions. Also how would UWW ships be able to use them as wormholes if magic was not able to be used?

Black Holes bend the fabric of space-time, they don't destroy it. The stuff simply gets warped so out of shape that it's basically crumpled up on itself. Light doesn't escape because its path gets bent in to an inward spiral, rather than just being slingshotted like it does around other high-density items.

A Rift is a tear in the fabric of space-time. Just as you can still tear a piece of cloth that is crumpled up or bent, you can make a Rift anywhere you like. If, however, you were to tear a Rift in a portion of the space-time fabric that has been wrapped up inside a Black Hole, it would be pretty thorougly irrelevant. The fabric would, in all likelihood, be wrapped and packed so tight in other layers of space-time, that even the most massive Rifts ever made would be smaller than the eye could see, and completely inaccessible.

All that is even more irrelevant, due to the fact that any physical thing travelling through the Rift would be completely and utterly annihilated before it knew it had gone anywhere, and any energy travelling through would be trapped forever.

In a word - ow!

I agree with J Lionheart, except in one spot. A physical object would likely not be annihilated, it'd be spaghettified and/or eventually become crunched and one with the singularity.

Edit: You may even survive, if the rift picks a big enough black hole.

MrMom wrote:Then how is magic done in Dimensions where there is nothing or how would you escape from said Dimensions. Also how would UWW ships be able to use them as wormholes if magic was not able to be used?

That is a failing of rift drives, they cant go through wormholes. And perhaps magic can not be done in dimensions where there is nothing, maybe that is why they are used as dimensional prisons.

oh well my bad

Gudinoff wrote:If that would happen I belive that no explosion would result but rather what ever is on the other side of the rift would be pulled into the black hole. Destroying everything until there was no longer enough life and ppe to sustain the rift. This might take awhile and cause even nearby solar systems to be pulled in depending on how much death ppe is released when the black hole consumes its victims.

The rifts that happen underwater don't automatically pour water through. Rifts in space don't suck the air out of the other side. I'd be inclined to think that the black hole wouldn't affect anything on the other side, based on the fact that no other environmental effect automatically falls through.

Then again, you could do the Stargate thing, and allow that the gravity of a black hole is strong enough to overcome the normal "no environmental conditions travelling through" precedent.

Natalya wrote:

Gudinoff wrote:If that would happen I belive that no explosion would result but rather what ever is on the other side of the rift would be pulled into the black hole. Destroying everything until there was no longer enough life and ppe to sustain the rift. This might take awhile and cause even nearby solar systems to be pulled in depending on how much death ppe is released when the black hole consumes its victims.

The rifts that happen underwater don't automatically pour water through. Rifts in space don't suck the air out of the other side. I'd be inclined to think that the black hole wouldn't affect anything on the other side, based on the fact that no other environmental effect automatically falls through.

Then again, you could do the Stargate thing, and allow that the gravity of a black hole is strong enough to overcome the normal "no environmental conditions travelling through" precedent.

I agree with Natalya the gravity of the black hole would not travel through the rift(Its Magic). It would require a sentient willingness to step through the rift. It is how ever possible for the rift be colapsed on the other side keeping someone from entering, but if they could step through only death would be on the other side.

This could also be an expensive way to kill all your enemies

There is no baundry between dimensions, rifts are 2 dimension not three dimensional.

I'd have to agree that the gravitational effects of a black hole, extreme as they are, would nevertheless not propagate through the magical boundary that is a rift, just as other alien environments don't mix through them.

Unless the black hole was one of the truly immense galactic black holes, stepping through the rift would be instantly fatal, however, as tidal forces would rip any matter crossing through into its component particles and crush it down to spaghetti-strands.

The view through the rift would be odd, to say the least. Depending on the direction the view was 'facing', things would be redshifted beyond visibility, or blueshifted well out of the normal visible spectrum. It's entirely possible that the view would be nonsensical to us, considering that the 'time' and 'space' directions get somewhat exchanged beyond the event horizon: the singularity doesn't exist in front of an infalling object, at the center of a black hole, but rather in its unavoidable future. Trying to avoid the singularity of a black hole is like trying to avoid tomorrow.

Escaping from within a black hole via a rift, I think, would be tantamount to time-travel. With the space-time directions reversed, you'd literally have to travel backwards in time in order to escape. I'm not exactly sure how you'd be able to engineer actually falling into the rift itself once you were past the event horizon, but hey, it's magic.

So hey... what happens if you shove a vampire through a rift into a black hole? Does it get torn to atoms and spaghettified and compressed to near-infinity like everything else made of matter? It's not sun or water damage specifically, so are vampires instead inherently immune to compaction by space-bending gravitational forces, and simply trapped inside the black hole for the 10^100 years it takes for them to evaporate through Hawking radiation?

Max™ wrote:<.<

It is a common misconception that the inside of a black hole is an incredibly destructive place.

It depends on the size of the black hole, really. Tidal effects from small black holes are incredibly destructive due to the steep gravitational gradient. Larger black holes (such as those found at the centers of galaxies) have a much 'gentler' gradient.

There is no "inside" to a black hole relative to our Universe.

The entirety of the black hole is the event horizon, you don't pass through it and fall inside, you smush into it and become a part of the hole itself.

The event horizon of a black hole is not a physical surface, but is simply the region defined by the distance from the singularity at which the escape velocity equals the speed of light. So, once you've passed this boundary, there's no escape, since in order to do so you would need to somehow exceed the speed of light (which in the real universe, at least, appears to be impossible). Eventually you wind up colliding with the singularity and getting crushed incomprehensibly small.

You may be instead thinking of a MECO, or Massive Eternally Collapsing Object, which is a competing theory to the prediction of black holes. These objects would indeed have a physical surface.

The inside of one, by most theoretical reckoning would be another Universe entirely, so a rift to the inside of a black hole would just appear like any other rift that didn't lead to another part of the same universe.

A rift that opened near the event horizon itself, that's another matter entirely.

The interior of a black hole could probably be considered another universe, but it would be a very weird universe, and not one anyone would really care to visit, I bet.

Nethel wrote:Scrud why wouldn't the gravity effect the destination of the rift? Part of the cataclysm and storms on the sea are rifted in from other worlds. natural disasters in effect in other dimensions were able to come through the rift.

Hopefully no one minds if I jump in with my thoughts here. One thing to look at is some rifts would cause Earth to lose parts of its environment if environmental conditions leaked through. Rifts commonly open in the bottom of the ocean, but the water level isn't going down and people on the other side step through not expecting to be immersed and crunched. There's mention of a rift between Earth and Mars, but Earth isn't losing atmosphere.

The ley line storms that crop up when a rift opens are not storms coming through the rift. It's a domestic storm being caused by the exact same thing causing the rift - an overload of PPE at the site.

Natalya wrote:

Nethel wrote:Scrud why wouldn't the gravity effect the destination of the rift? Part of the cataclysm and storms on the sea are rifted in from other worlds. natural disasters in effect in other dimensions were able to come through the rift.

Hopefully no one minds if I jump in with my thoughts here. One thing to look at is some rifts would cause Earth to lose parts of its environment if environmental conditions leaked through. Rifts commonly open in the bottom of the ocean, but the water level isn't going down and people on the other side step through not expecting to be immersed and crunched. There's mention of a rift between Earth and Mars, but Earth isn't losing atmosphere.

The ley line storms that crop up when a rift opens are not storms coming through the rift. It's a domestic storm being caused by the exact same thing causing the rift - an overload of PPE at the site.

Thankyou Natalya.

If I could add to your statement, other hazards such as radiation, gamarays, mircowaves, ect. would not pass through. Not even harmless things like radio waves. But that does leave the question of where all those mutations from "Alien Radiation" come from, so I would have to say (and this is just logical elimination of possibilitys) that any of that radiation came through the rift with someone or something else.

Nethel you you could provide me with any page numbers or quotes of where I can find your info that would be great. I'm also gonna do my own read through the base books as well

Greyaxe wrote:Sorry folks magic (ppe) is generated by life etc, so when a star dies the ley lines in that solar system reallign into a new configuration. No rifts can open in a black hole as there are no ley lines.

Aw, no fun! No fun at all!

Well, I would think there could be some fun idea in ley-nexus + black hole. My first instinct is that the black hole would work through a rift, essentially making for black hole on both sides. Perhaps *every* black hole has a rift in it (perhaps the only rifts available in otherwise rift-free universes). And since Magic can do things like break laws of physics, one could imagine space shifters or temporal raiders playing with this. Placing something inside the event Horizon, where only arcane means can get it.

Then again, sci-fi necromancers.... they'd need a black hole to rally around. I know of one race like this, but I'll not name is for fear of copyright. But needless to say, mix the physical 'black hole' with the metaphors for blackness being involved with evil and death, and you can have yourself one nasty supernatural menace plaguing the UWW.

Max™ wrote:No, I'm thinking of a black hole as a "censor" between our Universe, and the event occuring "inside" the event horizon.

Where the horizon starts though, is where our Universe ends.

Well, that's certainly a valid way to look at it, since whatever's beyond the event horizon is pretty much gone from our universe... at least until the thing evaporates.

Just to add something to think about, one would expect that as a black hole gained mass, it would increase in volume appropriately, but strangely enough, adding mass to a black hole only increases the surface area it seems.

Kind of like blowing up a balloon from the outside, except the interior is a non-issue unless you spin it at high velocities, and the air you're blowing gets converted into more balloon material.

Well... the volume of the black hole does increase, in terms of that region of our spacetime that's been 'excluded' by the event horizon surface, ie. as they gain mass, the radius of the horizon as we measure it increases. I have no idea how this would be interpreted from inside the black hole, though.

Gudinoff wrote:<quoted>
The rifts that happen underwater don't automatically pour water through. Rifts in space don't suck the air out of the other side. I'd be inclined to think that the black hole wouldn't affect anything on the other side, based on the fact that no other environmental effect automatically falls through.
<quoted>

Actually the Rifts main book states about rifts, that something always comes out or goes in an open rift even if its just air. So rifts do allow atmospheric conditions to pass through. If one were to open a rift to the bottom of an ocean the the water would come out at great force and in massive quantity until the rift was closed or the water level/pressure equalized. Likewise if one were to open a rift into deep space the rush of air into that space would blow things from the higher pressure side.

That would be a problem, as the first rift to open on the surface of Rifts Earth that lead into the vacuum of space somewhere would very quickly exterminate all air-breathing life on the planet.

Well, okay, after a bit of math, 'quicky' comes out to be around one hundred thousand years for all the air to get blown off the planet (in a very simplified model anyway). Still, a hole in space sucking in air at over 1400 tonnes per second would make for one heck of a local meteorological phenomenon.