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Yet there really isnt any reason why a Fallen Knight -couldnt- infact become more powerful.

I mean honestly, if they are really that dedicated (Be it for good or evil) to regain the power they once had, or even exceed it. Then the methods are there in Rifts. Extremely exceptional mortals have afterall become on par with minor godlings, if not beyond. Thraxus (or whats his name anyway in PW) is a good example of this I think.

The fall is a punishment of the Forge, yes. And it's very unlikely a once fallen knight will be restored. But that hardly means the Fallen Knight is incapable of learning. Quite the opposite infact.

Darkmax wrote:you play your game, I play mine. I just don't like to munchkin my games.

Because once one open that can of worms they are going to be everywhere.

I tend to avoid it myself as well. That said I have run a few munchie type games when thats what the players wanted. Its part of the reason I dont run too many PW games. There's alot of munchie stuff in PW. But it's fun now and then.

gadrin wrote:do you count the ability of the Ley Line Walker to purchase spells/learn spells at any time as a OCC special ability ? It seems like the purpose of any mage is to learn magic (aside from the Mystic, who is really a psychic).

in other words can a FCK purchase spells ?

They ARE a ley line walker. They can learn new spells.

gadrin wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
They ARE a ley line walker. They can learn new spells.

are you sure ? it say's they don't get the special OCC abilities just the spells/powers of either the Mind Melter of Line Walker.

however every other mage can purchase spells (it seems), even the Super-Spy mage who isn't a full Ley Line Walker.

so I'm taking the above (spells/powers) to mean purchasing too.

If you have all of hte powers and abilities, you are one. Just my take...




Police radio "Sir, the gunman is standing on the corner"

"I'M NOT A GUNMAN! I'M JUST CARRYING 10 different ones with an assult rifle and 800 rouns of ammo!"

gadrin wrote:you obviously haven't read the book for the OCC.

I'll wait for someone who has.

Actually i've read it several times and I know exsactly what your talking about.

I just feel it's one of the many places in which palladium words things not as well as they could.


And to answer your question: yes, I feel teh ability to learn new spells is part of the powers/abilities, I was simply giving a more complete opinion on how it wouldn't really matter either way due to the poor way words were used.

gadrin wrote:do you count the ability of the Ley Line Walker to purchase spells/learn spells at any time as a OCC special ability ? It seems like the purpose of any mage is to learn magic (aside from the Mystic, who is really a psychic).

in other words can a FCK purchase spells ?

Yeah I suppose by the book they would count, but I don't know if I would agree with it. If you don't get the ley line special abilties you're nothing more than a spell casting fallen knight.

Lets face it there are only two reason I can think of to play a Fallen Knight. 1. Someone who wants to the challenge to regain their former status, and 2 someone who just wants to play a powerful character, but not be a good guy. If that's the case you might as well give them the LLW abilities.

On the other hand they would make for a cool and challenging NPC villain to face.

Carl

...Fallen Knights also have another option too... Demon Knight

Carl Gleba wrote:...Fallen Knights also have another option too... Demon Knight

I dont recall those, what book is that in?

At any rate on the issue of learning spells. Personally I treat them as being able to buy/learn new spells like any other spell caster (save mystic and maybe one or two others) can. The only real downside is they are more likely to have a harder time finding some one willing to teach them.

Ah ok. I though that might be it since I dont recall ever having heard about so called 'deamon knights' before.

But who knows with the uber umpteen million bajilion and one OCC/RCCs that Rifts has.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

gadrin wrote:do you count the ability of the Ley Line Walker to purchase spells/learn spells at any time as a OCC special ability ? It seems like the purpose of any mage is to learn magic (aside from the Mystic, who is really a psychic).

in other words can a FCK purchase spells ?

They ARE a ley line walker. They can learn new spells.

The abilities they don't get are things like Ley Line Drifting, et al.
They can still learn spells, as Nekira says.

Carl Gleba wrote:

gadrin wrote:do you count the ability of the Ley Line Walker to purchase spells/learn spells at any time as a OCC special ability ? It seems like the purpose of any mage is to learn magic (aside from the Mystic, who is really a psychic).

in other words can a FCK purchase spells ?

Yeah I suppose by the book they would count, but I don't know if I would agree with it. If you don't get the ley line special abilties you're nothing more than a spell casting fallen knight.

Lets face it there are only two reason I can think of to play a Fallen Knight. 1. Someone who wants to the challenge to regain their former status, and 2 someone who just wants to play a powerful character, but not be a good guy. If that's the case you might as well give them the LLW abilities.

On the other hand they would make for a cool and challenging NPC villain to face.

Carl

3) They like to play the tragic anti-hero, or Batman/ Wolverine-style character... it's my fave OCC, I usually play an Aberrant one... use evil means to achieve good ends.

I could see how a GM could rule it either way. I lean toward letting them learn/purchase spells the same as most mages, mainly because it doesn't say they can't. Most classes like the Mystic, Mystic Knight, Holly Terror, Anti-Monster etc say specifically that they can't learn any extra spells. I also don't see why the LLW would be limited, but the Mind Master wouldn't be.

It is one of the situations where as a player you go with how the GM sees it, and as a GM you go with what fits power level wise. That fact that they can go with a Pact and be more powerful, if that is their goal still puts me in the buying spells camp. There just isn't enough book consistency to base it 100% on the text.

Darkmax wrote:Which rules me out of playing a CK... I'm a bad ass anti-hero type.... not yet a good guy, but definitely not a villain.

Heh I hear you there. Aberrant for me all the way baby! Otherwise known as Evil Lite™ Edition.

Torture? Check!
Murder? Check!
Breaking Laws? Check!
Shooting that scum sucker in the back? Check!
Harm Innocents? Plausible.
Honourable? Check!... kinda.

Darkmax wrote:you guys really like to "power" game, no?

I've had to get used to it over the years. I think it kind of appeals to some gamers. I just give them a dose of their own medicine

Why do you think I came up with Hades. I took the munchkin players through Hades and a so far the three times they were they they ran with their tails between their legs!

Our last few groups have been pretty tame compared to the group that was part of the Dimension Riders and before that a part of Mercenaries Extradonair. I usually tell them no Demi-gods!

Carl

gadrin wrote:

Carl Gleba wrote:
Why do you think I came up with Hades. I took the munchkin players through Hades and a so far the three times they were they they ran with their tails between their legs!

Carl

That's good to hear, that (travelling to that dimension or dealing with those creatures) should be quite an experience.

I remember a demi-god Shifter in one of my groups who had a Fiend. At first things were all hunky-dory, until they found the Fiend had ideas of his own (like the time the players gave him too much money by accident and he came back to the their starship with a slave-girl he'd bought on a pirate port). They thought they had a robot, who was just going to blindly do what they said...

Anyway, your note sounds like "my kind of books"

Now that my friend is how to run a Fiend My players take demonic familiar very rarely since I've screwed with them so many times.

"Oh master were you refereing to me? Since you didn't call me specifically I thought you were referring to one of your other Minions" <-- One of my favorite lines!! Ok, maybe I stole it from Kevin, but damn it makes me crack up every time, especially to see the look on the players faces. They finally got smart and one of the first things they ask or demand of the familiar is what to call it. Had to give them some extra exp for that one!

Carl

With greatower comes great responsibility...but also greater challenges...and if you think your munchkin is going to rock around the megaverse rolling over opponents, bear in mind that after a while, opponents start looking for you....As either a threat to be preemptively taken out of the running or a challenge to add a notch to their scorecard..
Fallen Knight Mages are perfect examples of that...depending on their reputations, they can have enemies coming out of the woodwork for them, and mages who once knew to avoid CosmoKnights(who tend to have a blast hard and fast policy when facing magic opponents) are evn more inclined to avoid selling their secrets to the Fallen...and perhaps even more incentive to nail them...

Darkmax wrote:the trouble with it is control and the ever increasing power level for GMs to dish out.

NOT a problem.
Think about it: just come up with a sort of list of what level a mage of any OCC has to be (or read one of the books that already has it) in order to buy a spell. Or, only allow certain spells to be available to guild members (then the character has to join). Don't do that with every spell the player wants, that's idiotic, nor does everyone in the multi-verse know the character is a fallen knight (nothing gets boring and stupid more quickly than constant NPC omniscience). Considering the fact that most cosmo-knights live under-cover, what makes anyone think a fallen knight would be any less secretive?
The fallen knight's stats usually aren't all that extraordinary. Mostly all they have going for them is their PPE and an indestructable weapon. A draconid ley line walker is more "powerful", and I rarely hear anyone complain about them.

Darkmax wrote:thing is... how far can you maintain the environment before the next power break?.... And after a long campaign... they would all be nearly god-level powerful.... what is one to do then?....

I have ran years of campaign until the characters gone all powerful.... not difficult, just a bit boring after a while.

Thing is, most OCCs have that potential...