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Giant Robots & Saves vs. Magic
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:47 pm
by Talavar
I've got a rule question, & I'm not sure if it's been addressed in a main book. When a giant robot or vehicle gets affected by a spell with a save, one that could still effect it, like carpet of adhesion for instance, who saves vs. magic? Some robots have crews of as many as 6 people; would it be the pilot? That seems possible, but not always best.
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:11 am
by Kesslan
Techncially it would be a flat save for the robot I belive.
The people inside the robot are not actually affected by the spell so to speak. Not directly anyway. Also if I recall mechanical things get some sort of flat bonus to save vs Magic. But i'm only really basing that off the top of my head on Cyborgs as they get something like +4 to save vs magic due to their mechanical nature.
You know.. now that I think of it. Dispite all the games I've GMed I cant for the life of me recall how I delt with that.
Re: Giant Robots & Saves vs. Magic
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:06 am
by elecgraystone
Talavar wrote:I've got a rule question, & I'm not sure if it's been addressed in a main book. When a giant robot or vehicle gets affected by a spell with a save, one that could still effect it, like carpet of adhesion for instance, who saves vs. magic? Some robots have crews of as many as 6 people; would it be the pilot? That seems possible, but not always best.
Base save modified by the robots PE bonus to saves vs. magic.
So unless your robot has a PE score, it's stuck at base. Another reason CoA is way overpowered.
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:30 pm
by Scrud
Luckily for your robot as long as its not stuck to something as strong a itself it will just rip up the floor or wall or whatever type of robot you have
-but yes a flat save.
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:15 pm
by elecgraystone
Scrud wrote:Luckily for your robot as long as its not stuck to something as strong a itself it will just rip up the floor or wall or whatever type of robot you have
WHile i agree to this reading of the spell, there are others that will insist that you are stuck NO MATTER WHAT. They really need to clairify that spell.
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:38 pm
by Jefffar
I use the good ol attended object rule and give the pilot the honor of rolling.
Re: Giant Robots & Saves vs. Magic
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:28 am
by drewkitty ~..~
Talavar wrote:I've got a rule question, & I'm not sure if it's been addressed in a main book. When a giant robot or vehicle gets affected by a spell with a save, one that could still effect it, like carpet of adhesion for instance, who saves vs. magic? Some robots have crews of as many as 6 people; would it be the pilot? That seems possible, but not always best.
No one saves, the bot auto fails. (not alive=no save)
Unless....
Your Bot is protoculture powered, then it might get a save.
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:44 am
by drewkitty ~..~
Jefffar wrote:I use the good ol attended object rule and give the pilot the honor of rolling.
Book? page? (ie: give the location of a rule if you are going to reference it so others can find it)
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:45 am
by Kesslan
I'm pretty sure it being protoculture powered wouldnt affect anything as far as CoA goes.
CoA is just one of those spells I love and hate at the same time. So handy, yet so horribly overpowered and seriously lacking in proper explanation of actual mechanics.
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:15 am
by Jefffar
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Jefffar wrote:I use the good ol attended object rule and give the pilot the honor of rolling.
Book? page? (ie: give the location of a rule if you are going to reference it so others can find it)
D&D
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:26 pm
by Scrud
D&D what book is that???
-I'm just playing, But I was unaware that there was giant robots in D&D
-Just playing again, but that was a good use of metaphor (just playing, sarcasm)
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:33 pm
by Jefffar
D20 has giant robots, and usually their saves are based on the pilot.
But I generally consider a piloted robot vehicle to fall under the category of attended object used in D&D giving the pilot the chance to save.
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:43 pm
by Jefffar
Except a lightning bolt gives a save that a robot can do - dodge.
Thanks for helping the robots get a save argument.
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:32 pm
by drewkitty ~..~
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:35 pm
by Jefffar
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Dodging is not a save, its a dodge
Dodging is a save against an undesirable affect.
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:37 pm
by Library Ogre
Is the perception check requirement new in the RUE, or a house rule?
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:47 pm
by Neorealist
Jefffar wrote:Dodging is a save against an undesirable affect.
The poster has a point: dodge is no more or less a save than parry, strike, disarm, and so forth are.
Granted it is a semantic difference i'd think, but worth clarifying.
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:50 pm
by Jefffar
Then a Reflex save from D&D shouldn't be counted as a saving throw either.
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:08 pm
by drewkitty ~..~
MrNexx wrote:Is the perception check requirement new in the RUE, or a house rule?
Its new sence its introduction in NightBane.
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:18 pm
by asajosh
Jefffar wrote:drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Dodging is not a save, its a dodge
Dodging is a save against an undesirable affect.
I dont think either of you could split that hair any finer...
So is breathing an auto save against asphyxiation (sp)?
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:MrNexx wrote:drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Is the perception check requirement new in the RUE, or a house rule?
Its new sence its introduction in NightBane.
A roll to see if you get to roll? Thats a bit too much for me and won't be getting into my campaigns
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:16 am
by Library Ogre
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:MrNexx wrote:Is the perception check requirement new in the RUE, or a house rule?
Its new sence its introduction in NightBane.
Not the existence of perception checks... I mean requiring one to make a dodge v. lightning bolt.
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:12 am
by finn69
actually in rifts call lightning has no dodge or save its 1d6 damage per level of the caster. period. no save no dodge just zap.
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:07 am
by drewkitty ~..~
To give an example of a rule writen after the inroduction of the Perceptions rules, here is the how the wording for the saving throw of the Lighting Bolt spell.
Saving Throw: None, but the target can dodge the bolt if he knows the attack is coming and rolls a natural 18 or higher
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:16 am
by Jefffar
asajosh wrote:Jefffar wrote:drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Dodging is not a save, its a dodge
Dodging is a save against an undesirable affect.
I dont think either of you could split that hair any finer...
So is breathing an auto save against asphyxiation (sp)?
Nope, a saving throw requires a die roll . . . so unless you had to roll dice to keep breathing, not a save.
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:36 pm
by drewkitty ~..~
Jefffar wrote:asajosh wrote:Jefffar wrote:drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Dodging is not a save, its a dodge
Dodging is a save against an undesirable affect.
I dont think either of you could split that hair any finer...
So is breathing an auto save against asphyxiation (sp)?
Nope, a saving throw requires a die roll . . . so unless you had to roll dice to keep breathing, not a save.
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:50 pm
by Jefffar
Hey, I'm unafraid to get down to the nitty gritty - and to give a straight answer to a jesting rhetorical question.
Re: Giant Robots & Saves vs. Magic
Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:01 pm
by elecgraystone
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Talavar wrote:I've got a rule question, & I'm not sure if it's been addressed in a main book. When a giant robot or vehicle gets affected by a spell with a save, one that could still effect it, like carpet of adhesion for instance, who saves vs. magic? Some robots have crews of as many as 6 people; would it be the pilot? That seems possible, but not always best.
No one saves, the bot auto fails. (not alive=no save)
Unless....
Your Bot is protoculture powered, then it might get a save.
It took quite a bit of looking but a found a ruling on this.
Rifter #17, page#19 in the question and answer section.
Question Do equipment, weapons, robots, and machines get saving throws.
Answer: A big long answer, but it boils down to the fact that non-intellegent robots don't get a save.
Robots with an intellegence but aren't at least AI get a save but no bonuses.
Robots with an AI or a human controller/pilot use the pilots bonuses or the robots bonuses for stats.
Re: Giant Robots & Saves vs. Magic
Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:50 pm
by drewkitty ~..~
elecgraystone wrote:drewkitty ~..~ wrote:snip...
Robots with an AI or a human controller/pilot use the pilots bonuses or the robots bonuses for stats.
In responce, I would say that sence the people in the bot are protected from being targeted from Magic, That the bot protects the Magic from the people inside. Thus, the bot Does Not get the pilot's save vs magic.
Now, if you talking PAs, then I would go for that the pilot would do the saving vs the magic.
Now AI's are a tricky to deal with....if the AI is just a black box in the bot.....then I would say 'No it can't affact the auto fail save vs magic that bots automaticly get becasue they are not alive (see above in pilots responce for reasons. A TI would be a Black Box AI for this.) However, if the AI is an amalgimation of the systems of the bot, then treat it normally as an AI char.
But I would also point out that all AIs, inteligent of not, have in effect a Zero PE stat., so they don't get a bonuse vs magic. While they are immune to certain types of spells. Those spells that they are immune to are not those that create a physical effect.
Re: Giant Robots & Saves vs. Magic
Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 12:33 pm
by elecgraystone
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:But I would also point out that all AIs, inteligent of not, have in effect a Zero PE stat., so they don't get a bonuse vs magic. While they are immune to certain types of spells. Those spells that they are immune to are not those that create a physical effect.
True, robots don't get a PE, but a OCC can give bonuses to saves (for TI's).
The spells that i'm worried about saves on are the carpet of adhesion type spells that are physical spells and have a save vs magic instead of a dodge. Lets face it, it was lame that every robot/PA always got stuck in a CoA for the full time but everything alive like slugs,snakes, girlscouts ect could break out in less time.
Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 7:29 pm
by elecgraystone
K20A2_S wrote:CoA should be a 7-8th level spell IMO, not 4th.......and should cost more PPE....
I'll agree is should be a higher level and PPE cost, or it should just make a sticky carpet that things with enouph strength can just break out of. As is, it's a way overpowered spell for one that ane 1st level ley line walker can cast.
Re: Giant Robots & Saves vs. Magic
Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 9:19 pm
by drewkitty ~..~
elecgraystone wrote:True, robots don't get a PE, but a OCC can give bonuses to saves (for TI's).
The spells that i'm worried about saves on are the carpet of adhesion type spells that are physical spells and have a save vs magic instead of a dodge. Lets face it, it was lame that every robot/PA always got stuck in a CoA for the full time but everything alive like slugs,snakes, girlscouts ect could break out in less time.
TI's would get the bonuses they get in their bodies, think I said that already. (if not her then in that topic about robots....)
If you look @ what I said, its bots (rifts gient robot mecha) don't get to save, not PAs.
