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I understand the canonical approach is to use the abilities as listed, which effectively seems to restrict the N&SS martial arts styles against the broad HU2 hand to hand skills in terms of attacks that a character gets. I also understand that N&SS Revised has conversion notes for HU Revised rather than HU2. In that vein I have some questions and hope for some help:
1. How do you take/address the number of attacks discrepency which inhibits N&SS styles compared to HU2 skills?
2. Are there other equivalents to the HTH: Basic/Expert/Martial Artist/Assassin from HU2 which can be found in other Palladium books? Can you recommend which books may be useful?
3. In terms of trying to keep character creation relatively straightforward and as by the book as possible (although not slavishly so), any relatively uncomplicated alternative suggestions for incorporating access to N&SS styles for HU2 characters?


I also realise there have been previous discussions about the subject:

Martial Arts and HU
Martial arts in HU2?
Heroes Unlimited and Ninjas and Superspies
Using Ninja's and Superspys in HU
How many attacks do I get?
Allowing N&SS Martial Arts for Super Powered Heros

One of the issues is keeping an even keel. I've played in games that add the extra 2 attacks for living, and games that didn't. Both work fine, just make sure you use it across the board. If you have say a mutant, or experiment with a N&SS MA, but not the extra attacks they are slower obviously, but the bonuses like multiple dodge can more then make up for it. In those cases it is more for flavor then power.

My problem with incorporating it was that I tried to do so in the midst of my campaign and certain NPCs were written with the standard HtoH and some were coming in with a bunch of added stuff. Plus they seemed to want to dual class, and having energy blasts and chi attacks seemed like a bit of overkill.

leonmallett wrote:I understand the canonical approach is to use the abilities as listed, which effectively seems to restrict the N&SS martial arts styles against the broad HU2 hand to hand skills in terms of attacks that a character gets. I also understand that N&SS Revised has conversion notes for HU Revised rather than HU2. In that vein I have some questions and hope for some help:
1. How do you take/address the number of attacks discrepency which inhibits N&SS styles compared to HU2 skills?
2. Are there other equivalents to the HTH: Basic/Expert/Martial Artist/Assassin from HU2 which can be found in other Palladium books? Can you recommend which books may be useful?
3. In terms of trying to keep character creation relatively straightforward and as by the book as possible (although not slavishly so), any relatively uncomplicated alternative suggestions for incorporating access to N&SS styles for HU2 characters?

1. I know this isn't cannon, but... I add the two attacks for living to the NJ&SS Style. This gives anywhere from 3 to 6 attacks to start.

2. HTH: Commando in R:UE. Aikido, Karate, Jujutsu, Kendo, and Zanji are in Rifts Japan. HTH: Gladiator is in Adventures on the High Seas.

3. Rifter #3 has some good guidelines. I tend to limit the more advanced styles to Hardware, Super Sleuths, Secret Operatives, Stage Magician, and the Hunter Vigilante.

Spectre wrote:

leonmallett wrote:I understand the canonical approach is to use the abilities as listed, which effectively seems to restrict the N&SS martial arts styles against the broad HU2 hand to hand skills in terms of attacks that a character gets. I also understand that N&SS Revised has conversion notes for HU Revised rather than HU2. In that vein I have some questions and hope for some help:
1. How do you take/address the number of attacks discrepency which inhibits N&SS styles compared to HU2 skills?
2. Are there other equivalents to the HTH: Basic/Expert/Martial Artist/Assassin from HU2 which can be found in other Palladium books? Can you recommend which books may be useful?
3. In terms of trying to keep character creation relatively straightforward and as by the book as possible (although not slavishly so), any relatively uncomplicated alternative suggestions for incorporating access to N&SS styles for HU2 characters?

1. I know this isn't cannon, but... I add the two attacks for living to the NJ&SS Style. This gives anywhere from 3 to 6 attacks to start.

2. HTH: Commando in R:UE. Aikido, Karate, Jujutsu, Kendo, and Zanji are in Rifts Japan. HTH: Gladiator is in Adventures on the High Seas.

3. Rifter #3 has some good guidelines. I tend to limit the more advanced styles to Hardware, Super Sleuths, Secret Operatives, Stage Magician, and the Hunter Vigilante.

Do the styles in Rifts Japan fit the format of the hth styles in HU2?

Having just done this with an updated 2nd edition Black One from
TMNT's Leg of the Ninja here on the board, I must say it was quite
a headache The way I did Ancient Master and combining
Martial Arts from N&SS revised was to basically follow the old
conversion listed in the N&SS. Looking up the Q&A part here on
the board it said go with the # attack listed and ignore the born with 2.
I hope I captured the essence of the guy and made a playable
version everyone will like

Personally I've always had a problem with the whole Chi thing. Maybe its
just me. I've always treated it just like I.S.P., and P.P.E., and ignored the
whole can't heal without Chi. Although some of the Chi powers are
kind of cool, most of the Chi Mastery found in N&SS and Mystic China
I've never used nor allowed in my games, but I love incoporating all
the other stuff, accept for tickling a demon to death

leonmallett wrote:

Spectre wrote:

leonmallett wrote:I understand the canonical approach is to use the abilities as listed, which effectively seems to restrict the N&SS martial arts styles against the broad HU2 hand to hand skills in terms of attacks that a character gets. I also understand that N&SS Revised has conversion notes for HU Revised rather than HU2. In that vein I have some questions and hope for some help:
1. How do you take/address the number of attacks discrepency which inhibits N&SS styles compared to HU2 skills?
2. Are there other equivalents to the HTH: Basic/Expert/Martial Artist/Assassin from HU2 which can be found in other Palladium books? Can you recommend which books may be useful?
3. In terms of trying to keep character creation relatively straightforward and as by the book as possible (although not slavishly so), any relatively uncomplicated alternative suggestions for incorporating access to N&SS styles for HU2 characters?

1. I know this isn't cannon, but... I add the two attacks for living to the NJ&SS Style. This gives anywhere from 3 to 6 attacks to start.

2. HTH: Commando in R:UE. Aikido, Karate, Jujutsu, Kendo, and Zanji are in Rifts Japan. HTH: Gladiator is in Adventures on the High Seas.

3. Rifter #3 has some good guidelines. I tend to limit the more advanced styles to Hardware, Super Sleuths, Secret Operatives, Stage Magician, and the Hunter Vigilante.

Do the styles in Rifts Japan fit the format of the hth styles in HU2?

They follow the HU2 format better than the NJ&SS martial arts. They also give some of the upper level comabt abilities such as Auto Flip and Auto Dodge.

Spectre wrote:

leonmallett wrote:

Spectre wrote:

leonmallett wrote:I understand the canonical approach is to use the abilities as listed, which effectively seems to restrict the N&SS martial arts styles against the broad HU2 hand to hand skills in terms of attacks that a character gets. I also understand that N&SS Revised has conversion notes for HU Revised rather than HU2. In that vein I have some questions and hope for some help:
1. How do you take/address the number of attacks discrepency which inhibits N&SS styles compared to HU2 skills?
2. Are there other equivalents to the HTH: Basic/Expert/Martial Artist/Assassin from HU2 which can be found in other Palladium books? Can you recommend which books may be useful?
3. In terms of trying to keep character creation relatively straightforward and as by the book as possible (although not slavishly so), any relatively uncomplicated alternative suggestions for incorporating access to N&SS styles for HU2 characters?

1. I know this isn't cannon, but... I add the two attacks for living to the NJ&SS Style. This gives anywhere from 3 to 6 attacks to start.

2. HTH: Commando in R:UE. Aikido, Karate, Jujutsu, Kendo, and Zanji are in Rifts Japan. HTH: Gladiator is in Adventures on the High Seas.

3. Rifter #3 has some good guidelines. I tend to limit the more advanced styles to Hardware, Super Sleuths, Secret Operatives, Stage Magician, and the Hunter Vigilante.

Do the styles in Rifts Japan fit the format of the hth styles in HU2?

They follow the HU2 format better than the NJ&SS martial arts. They also give some of the upper level comabt abilities such as Auto Flip and Auto Dodge.

In HU2 the more advanced hth skills use up more skills selections - does this apply in the examples in Rifts Japan?

PS - thanks for the info guys!

Yeah. The same rule applies. Some O.C.C.s already come with it for that book, though.

The Rifts: Japan HtH start as the skill equilent of HTH: MA and go up from there.

All my books are boxed up for moving at the moment, but I thought one or two like Judo were listed as the equal to MA, and things like Kendo, or Karate cost an extra skill, or two past what MA costs. So a character can take MA, or spend 1 more for Kendo or whatever. I don't hae the specifics without the books in front of me. It would be less of a skill payment to get say kendo then it would for the full Samurai MA in Rifts, or N&SS.

Judo is the equal to MA. The cost to upgrade to a different HTH style varies by OCC. Most cost one or none to change.
Ninjitsu, Zanji, and Teng-Justsu are selectable only by certain OCCs.

If you want all these to be available, i suggest...

Karate, Juijutsu, Kendo, and Aikido should cost one more than MA
Ninjitsu, Zanji, and Teng should cost two more than MA.
Drop the "Rune" sword ability from Zanji and add a +2 to strike and parry.

Spectre wrote:Judo is the equal to MA. The cost to upgrade to a different HTH style varies by OCC. Most cost one or none to change.
Ninjitsu, Zanji, and Teng-Justsu are selectable only by certain OCCs.

If you want all these to be available, i suggest...

Karate, Juijutsu, Kendo, and Aikido should cost one more than MA
Ninjitsu, Zanji, and Teng should cost two more than MA.
Drop the "Rune" sword ability from Zanji and add a +2 to strike and parry.

If you're going to do that, I recommend the following instead:

Hand to Hand Skills Available: Looking for more variety in the Hand to Hand skills available, but not the full blown styles from N&S? Then this list is for you:

Hand-to-Hand: Aikido {Rifts Japan}
For the 10th level bonus, change "Double existing P.P.E. (Inner spirit)" to "Double existing Chi." [If not using Chi, eliminate the bonus entirely.]

Hand-to-Hand: Assassin [Standard]

Hand-to-Hand: Basic [Standard]

Hand-to-Hand: Bull Fight {ATB2} (Limited to centaurs & other four legged creatures only)

Hand-to-Hand: Commando {CWC or RGMG versions}

Hand-to-Hand: Dog Boxing Kung Fu {Rifts China 2}
Starts with Strike, Parry, Dodge, Roll with Punch/Fall/Impact, Backward Sweep, and Backhand (1D6). (In addition to the moves already listed). Delete Dog Yip Attack (No description of this at all). Dog Boxing Side Flip, Wounded Paw & Whine, Force Bark, and Mad Dog Horror Growl can all be used in the N&S version of Dog Boxing Kung Fu. Dog Boxing Side Flip replaces Multiple Dodge, Wounded Paw & Whine replaces Combination Parry/Attack, Force Bark replaces Combination Strike/Parry, and Mad Dog Horror Growl replaces Knockout/Stun.

Hand-to-Hand: Dragon Combat {RUE} (Obviously limited to Dragons)

Hand-to-Hand: Drunken Style Kung Fu {Rifts China 2}
Starts with Strike, Parry, Dodge, Roll with Punch/Fall/Impact, Somersault, Stagger, Roll, Back Flip, Disarm, Entangle, Knife Hand (2D4), Backhand (1D6), Palm Strike (2D4), Kick Attack (2D4), Tripping/Leg Hook, Snap Kick (1D6), Crescent Kick (2D4+2), and Backward Sweep. (In addition to the moves already listed). Drunken Style Foot Play, Drunken Style Controlled Staggering, Faked Alcohol Sickness, and Projectile Vomit can all be used in the N&S version of Drunken Style KF, however, DS Foot Play replaces Pin/Incapacitate (a null move anyway, alternatively it can replace Combo Grab/Kick), DS Controlled Staggering replaces Multiple Dodge AND Automatic Dodge, Faked Alcohol Sickness replaces Choke, and Projectile Vomit replaces Death Blow. Joint Twisting is already replaced by the Art of Escape, an Art of Invisibility Martial Art Power already available to the full version of Drunken Style Kung Fu.

Hand-to-Hand: Eighteen Weapons Kung Fu {Rifts China 2}
Starts with Strike, Parry, Dodge, Roll with Punch/Fall/Impact, Disarm, and Entangle. Along with the standard punch and kick attacks. HTH 18 Weapons KF is primarily a weapon style, so there's no need to grab those few other attacks from the full version.

Hand-to-Hand: Evasive Combat {Old Ones}

Hand-to-Hand: Expert [Standard]

Hand-to-Hand: Foot Ninjitsu {TMNT}

Hand-to-Hand: Gladiator {High Seas}

Hand-to-Hand: Judo {Rifts Japan}

Hand-to-Hand: Jujitsu {Rifts Japan}

Hand-to-Hand: Karate {Rifts Japan}

Hand-to-Hand: Kendo {Rifts Japan} (A quickie sword style, but more accessible than ZSR)

Hand-to-Hand: Martial Arts [Standard]

Hand-to-Hand: Martial Arts Master {HU2} (This is already limited in HU)

Hand-to-Hand: Monkey Style Kung Fu {Rifts China 2}
Starts with Strike, Parry, Dodge, Roll with Punch/Fall/Impact, Back Flip, Somersault, Roll, Leap, Leap Attack, Knife Hand (2D4), Backhand (1D6), Palm Strike (2D4), Fore-Knuckle Fist (1D6), Double Knuckle Fist (1D8), Kick Attack (2D4), Tripping/Leg Hook, and Backward Sweep. Requires the Climbing Skill.
Berserk Monkey is also known as Stone Monkey, Tall Monkey and Wood Monkey are unchanged. Blind Monkey and Proud Monkey can replace Drunken Monkey and Lost Monkey, or either style can add both of the other Monkey Moves/Kata to it's list of choices. Monkey's One Hand Climb, Taunting Monkey and Monkey Shriek can be added to the list of Monkey Kata for the full blown style.

Hand-to-Hand: Ninjitsu/Tai-Jutsu {Rifts Japan}
For the 11th level bonus, change "Double existing P.P.E. (Inner spirit)" to "Double existing Chi." [If not using Chi, eliminate the bonus entirely.]

Hand-to-Hand: Shao-Lin Kung Fu {Rifts China 2}
Starts with Strike, Parry, Dodge, Roll with Punch/Fall/Impact, Back Flip, Leap, Leap Attack, and Disarm. In addition to listed moves.
Dragon Power Punch, Tiger Kick, Leopard Hand Strike, Snake Snap Kick, and Crane Elbow Strike can be used in the full blown version. Dragon Power Punch replaces Double-Knuckle Fist, Tiger Kick replaces Crescent Kick, Leopard Hand Strike replaces Palm Strike, Snake Snap Kick replaces Snap Kick, and Crane Elbow Strike replaces Forearm Attack.

Hand-to-Hand: Tai-Chi Ch'uan {Rifts China 2}
Starts with Strike, Parry, Dodge, Roll with Punch/Fall/Impact, Maintain Balance, Automatic Dodge, Backhand (1D6), Palm Strike (2D4), Kick Attack (2D4), Snap Kick (1D6), and Crescent Kick (2D4+2). Replace (or elimnate entirely) "Add 2D6 to Permanent I.S.P. Base" with Add +10 to Chi in all occurrences (6th and 15th level advancement bonuses).

Hand-to-Hand: White Jade Fan {Rifts China 2}
Note on Fans: With the listed additional damage notes in the "Fans as Weapons" section, Fans do 1D4 damage in the hands of a character who ISN'T a practitioner of White Jade Fan. White Jade Fan practitioners (including the full blown style), use the damages listed with this hand to hand skill.
Starts with Strike, Parry, Dodge, Roll with Punch/Fall/Impact, Disarm and W.P. Fan. Closed Fan Thrust, Open Fan Slash, Thrown Fan, Jade Fan Disarm, and Falling Fan Trick can all be used with the full blown version of White Jade Fan. Dump Fingertip Attack and Paralysis Attack for these abilities. Jade Fan Withering Flesh Attack is simply the standard Atemi, except this can be performed with a Fan.

Hand-to-Hand: Zanji Shinjinken-Ryo/Ryu {Rifts Japan}
Delete "and the knowledge and skill to create a "true" samurai sword" under the 12th level entry for Zanji Shinjinken Ryu.

For a variety of individual reasons, I don't recommend allowing any of the other Hand to Hand Skills out there (especially including Rifter skills), nor do I recommend allowing the "Mystic Martial Art Powers" from Rifts China.

Costs (exclusive of the standard four):
Equivalent to Basic: Evasive Combat, Judo, and Tai-Chi Ch'uan
Equivalent to Expert: Bull Fight, Dragon Combat, and Gladiator.
Equivalent to Martial Arts/Assassin: Aikido, Dog Boxing, Drunken Style, Eighteen Weapons, Foot Ninjitsu, Jujitsu, Karate, Kendo, Monkey Style, Shao-Lin, and White Jade Fan.
Costs 4 skills to learn: Commando, Ninjutsu/Tai-Jutsu, and Zanji-Shinjinken Ryu