nightbane

[Nekira Sudacne]

hey everybody i have a player and friend in my game whos asking about a nightbane character that he wants to run which is no problem its a first for my game but how do you guys handle nightbane with o.c.c.'s

Let them have it?


works for me


Nekira.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Nightbane that grow up on Rifts earth should have a Rifts OCC.

Nightbane are not all that unbalancing if played right. I would also sugest that you follow the convertion rules with in the nightbane main book to deture the player from turning into a munchkin.

If the Player wants a Mage OCC the use the PPE listing under Nightbane sorrcorer. NB Mystics are covered in the NB main, convertion being a few skill changes.

[Warwolf]

Nightbane that grow up on Rifts earth should have a Rifts OCC.

Nightbane are not all that unbalancing if played right. I would also sugest that you follow the convertion rules with in the nightbane main book to deture the player from turning into a munchkin.

If the Player wants a Mage OCC the use the PPE listing under Nightbane sorrcorer. NB Mystics are covered in the NB main, convertion being a few skill changes.

dont have the NB main book but i do have dark conversions but hes picking a o.c.c. which could possibly go munchkin i gotta talk to him some more is anybody familiar with the murder mage from rifter 8?

Is this an evil campaign? If not, you may want to think twice. They aren't called Murder Mages for no reason. At the same time, I wouldn't allow a combination like that. Nightbane can be bad enough on their own, without adding an O.C.C. If he's really wanting to play a magic using Nightbane, I'd have him stick to Nightbane Mystic or Nightbane Sorcerer.

[Warwolf]

I'm not 100% sure but Nightbane in Rifts might be MDC.

They are in Morphus form, as per Dark Conversions.

[Blue Eyes]

if my memory serves me correctly, nightbanes cannot become murder marges. unly sdc humanoids can become murermages, and a nightbane is a nightbane, not a human!!!! on rifts earth nightbanes are creatures of magic with MDC bodies!

BE

[asajosh]

if my memory serves me correctly, nightbanes cannot become murder marges. unly sdc humanoids can become murermages, and a nightbane is a nightbane, not a human!!!! on rifts earth nightbanes are creatures of magic with MDC bodies!

BE

Its one of Palladium's famous "Grey Areas"!
I've played a couple nightbanes in rifts earth with a couple GMs a while back (when it was still "Nightspawn") and we came to a concensus. In human form (facade) the human is just that: Human. SDC structure, can't use talents or any other morphus abilities, to psionic/magic probes they appear human with above average PPE. In the morphus, they are MDC and have access to all talents, etc.

[asajosh]

Well that may be the end of that, re-reading murder mages: SDC non-supernatural creatures only...

[Blue Eyes]

to asajosh: thanks for quoting the book, i knew there was RCC restrictions, but i do not have the book any longer so i could not look it up.

as for nightbanes being "human" while in facade form, i couldnt disagree more. it is called FACADE for a reason. the facade, or disguise if you will, may be very near perfect, but is still just a disguise, magic and psionic readings like see aura would still reveal that the character is not human. imo a nightbane isnt any more human in facade form than a dragon is a rabbit in rabbit form.

a nightbane is a supernatural being /creature of magic, i have seen several muchkin attemps to create nightbanes with OCCs that are only available to sdc humanoids, this one and battle magus are the two worst i have seen.

BE

[asajosh]

But here's the trouble, nightbane may remain human indeffinately. They don't "become" until the arrival of nightlords. So its perfectly plausible that there are nightbanes running around. untransformed, until a Nightlord shows up. THEN they can transform (Im paraphrasing from both Nightbane main book and Dark Conversions).

So there it is, you have a way for a human to train in magic, then a nightlord pops in, and you got your nightbane mage.

Since, theoretically, almost anyone can learn magic, why should a nightbane be unable to cast in the morphous and not the facade? Again, in the main NB book, there are magical OCCs that a NB can select. They can cast in either form.

[Nekira Sudacne]

hey everybody i have a player and friend in my game whos asking about a nightbane character that he wants to run which is no problem its a first for my game but how do you guys handle nightbane with o.c.c.'s

Let them have it?


works for me


Nekira.

so a nightbane murder mage no reservations on that one?

That's fine.

Though, sinse that's a magic using OCC, they'd have to use the rules for a NightBane Sorcerrer.

[Blue Eyes]

i completely disagree, a nightbane is a nightbane, not a human. the fact that they appear human and are weak until the approach of the nightlords still does not change their RCC. a nightbane is a creature of magic/ supernatural being whether he or she knows it or not. if the OCC racial restrictions forbids supernatural beings as murder mages, then that clearly means that nightbanes cannot become a murdermage. that is my opinion, and i believe the entire idea has munchkin written all over it.

BE

[elecgraystone]

as for nightbanes being "human" while in facade form, i couldnt disagree more. it is called FACADE for a reason. the facade, or disguise if you will, may be very near perfect, but is still just a disguise, magic and psionic readings like see aura would still reveal that the character is not human. imo a nightbane isnt any more human in facade form than a dragon is a rabbit in rabbit form.

I'd have to disagree, or it would be a VERY short life for nightbane. If they didn't appear 100% human, hunters and hounds, ect would have NO problem finding them. They see through ALL magic and psionic means of "disquise and concealment". You need a spell, sense nightbane, to detect them in facade. At best see aura shows an unusual aura, which could mean an illness, a non-numan, an alien ect but doesn't say which.

a nightbane is a supernatural being /creature of magic, i have seen several muchkin attemps to create nightbanes with OCCs that are only available to sdc humanoids, this one and battle magus are the two worst i have seen.

BE

While i disagree with you about the facade being human, i agree that a nightbane shouldn't be allowed to take murder mage unless they never change into thier morphus. If they do, no extra exp and no murder mage powers when in morphus form ect. I'd even go so far as to drop any extra EXP back to the base for his level if he switched and took morphus form (all extra stored EXP goes away if he no longer qualifies for the class). A little "straighting" of the rules will discourage "bending' the rules to make a munchkin.

[asajosh]

Believe it or not i really wasn't trying to be a super munchkin with this Nightbane murder mage.
I wanted to play him as a guy with this evil "secret identity". I mean he's evil all the time, but tries to hide in human society in his facade (Alter Aura, etc. helping hide the alignment, level), keeping his morphous a total secret even from other PCs. As a human, he'd probably try to pass himself off as a healer or apprentice mage. Harmless to mildly helpful. The best kind of evil is the kind that smiles and shakes your hand.
Oh well, I think I'll shelve him for a later time. Maybe he'll pop up as an NPC next time I GM

[elecgraystone]

i completely disagree, a nightbane is a nightbane, not a human. the fact that they appear human and are weak until the approach of the nightlords still does not change their RCC. a nightbane is a creature of magic/ supernatural being whether he or she knows it or not. if the OCC racial restrictions forbids supernatural beings as murder mages, then that clearly means that nightbanes cannot become a murdermage. that is my opinion, and i believe the entire idea has munchkin written all over it.

BE

If you look at the sensitive to the supernatural ability in through the glass darkly, Facades do not detect as supernatural. They just aren't supernatural creatures in the form. Thier facades are in fact human (look at racial limitations in the conversion book) and are not supernatural in that form.

I should point out that in rifts, the only OCC's a nightbane can take are adventurer/scholors, basic grunt, bandit, thief, or smuggler (PG#163 dark conversions). So,if this is a rifts character being make, it doesn't work. If it's a nightbane game, murder mage is a rifts OCC and shouldn't exist thier. So, this is really a moot point.

[asajosh]

In exchange for the Murder Mage OCC I was willing to sacrifice all nightbane talents. Rule bender yes, but its a better balance right?

[elecgraystone]

In exchange for the Murder Mage OCC I was willing to sacrifice all nightbane talents. Rule bender yes, but its a better balance right?

Well, not much of a sacrifice. With the "free" exp, you'd be several levels ahead or the rest of your party in no time.

tries to hide in human society in his facade (Alter Aura, etc. helping hide the alignment, level)

Also, nightbane do not get psionics, so the alter aura would be out.

[Blue Eyes]

my point yes, you cannot separate the two forms, facade and morphus arent two different "beings" they are one, a nightbane, if you let people do some of the things suggested above then i think it could end in disaster. as an example i could use a dragon that casts the spell "metamorphosis human" and then trains hard to become a murdermage. this is not possible even though a metamorphosis human spell in fact changes the dragon into a human, at least for a short period of time.
the see aura ability allows psychics to spot human aberrations, insanity, serious desease and wether the character is human or not. this character is not human, hence i do not believe he could ever be trained, he would be spotted. thats my take on it

BE

[asajosh]

He wouldn't be all that high if I had to play his morphus as a secret Which was the plan, but it's outta the bag now, so he'll almost certainly have to be an NPC now anyway. Oh well. <flush>

[elecgraystone]

my point yes, you cannot separate the two forms, facade and morphus arent two different "beings" they are one

Not true. Read spittin' image talent. The nightbane can seperate the two. He has 1 mind and 2 bodies.

as an example i could use a dragon that casts the spell "metamorphosis human" and then trains hard to become a murdermage. this is not possible even though a metamorphosis human spell in fact changes the dragon into a human, at least for a short period of time.

The dragon doesn't have 2 natural forms. Nightbane do.

the see aura ability allows psychics to spot human aberrations, insanity, serious desease and wether the character is human or not. this character is not human, hence i do not believe he could ever be trained, he would be spotted. thats my take on it

BE

Not quite right. It allow you to see that it isn't normal. It COULD be any and all of these things;aberrations, insanity, serious desease and wether the character is human or not. It however DOESN'T tell you which one. The character could be a mutant, insane a nightbane, AND/OR be diseased. Note that the OCC lets people in with aberrations, insanity, serious disease or any numbers of OTHER things that doesn't make them a supernatural being and would be seen by see aura.

[elecgraystone]

He wouldn't be all that high if I had to play his morphus as a secret Which was the plan, but it's outta the bag now, so he'll almost certainly have to be an NPC now anyway. Oh well. <flush>

No, every time you kill someone you get free EXP for being a murder mage. The point of the OCC is a normal SDC creature that can kill even MDC creatures and eat thier life energy. The fact that the morphus isn't used doesn't change that fact. it just means that once you bring it your morphus, you'll be much higher in level.

It could be an interesting NPC if the GM doesn't mind bending the rules to allow a non-standard OCC.

[Blue Eyes]

i would think that the fact that there exists a talent that makes the character split the two implies that they normally are not. i am sorry but i just dont buy it. i have played a nightbane a few times and "the becoming" natural ability states they appear to be human, after the becoming they have two identities, one facade and one monster. the monster form is the nightbanes true form, the human form is used to blend in. the nightbanes average lifespan says it all: unknown or 5000+ years.
the bottom line is, someone decided that murdermages can be sdc humanoids only, and a nightbane is a supernatural monster that is "conditioned" in that it can only unleash its powers when it reveals its true visage, the facade form is still a nightbane, but in human form. its not one mind sharing two bodies, its one mind one body that can change appearance. the "reshape facade" talent allows the nightbane to alter the appearance of the facade by spending PPE, this is not more than a simple metamorphosis ability, just like the one the dragon possesses. in fact a dragon has almost an infinite of natural forms, nightbanes have "only" two (or more with special talents).

BE

[Warwolf]

I'll forward this debate along to the new Nightbane writers. Perhaps they will be able to finally put debates like this to rest.

[elecgraystone]

i would think that the fact that there exists a talent that makes the character split the two implies that they normally are not. i am sorry but i just dont buy it. i have played a nightbane a few times and "the becoming" natural ability states they appear to be human, after the becoming they have two identities, one facade and one monster. the monster form is the nightbanes true form, the human form is used to blend in. the nightbanes average lifespan says it all: unknown or 5000+ years.

Well i'm looking at the conversion book and it states that "only HUMANS can be nightbane", Not that thier facade has to LOOK human. See the difference?

the bottom line is, someone decided that murdermages can be sdc humanoids only, and a nightbane is a supernatural monster that is "conditioned" in that it can only unleash its powers when it reveals its true visage, the facade form is still a nightbane, but in human form.

Not the point. The OCC states that you need to be a non-supernatural SDC creature and the fasade form qualifies. However, they are disqualified because the nightbane RCC doesn't allow them to take murdermage.

its not one mind sharing two bodies, its one mind one body that can change appearance.

It's clear to me that they are in fact ARE 2 different bodies. Heck, thier clothes can even disappear along with one of thier selves. However, the game is vague on this point.

the "reshape facade" talent allows the nightbane to alter the appearance of the facade by spending PPE, this is not more than a simple metamorphosis ability, just like the one the dragon possesses. in fact a dragon has almost an infinite of natural forms, nightbanes have "only" two (or more with special talents).

BE

Sorry, "a dragon has almost an infinite of natural forms" is totally wrong. When the dragon activates his metamorphosis, he has to make a decision what form he changes into. None of the other forms are natural. A nightbane makes no such decision. He can only be one of his selves or the other.

[elecgraystone]

I'll forward this debate along to the new Nightbane writers. Perhaps they will be able to finally put debates like this to rest.

That would be awesome. As-is it's all vague enouph that you really can see it from both sides.

[Blue Eyes]

yes it says "humans only" but that refers to the stats rolled when creating the facade form, nothing more. and the facade does have to look human, i think the word APPEAR human really settles that part of the argument. they appear human but they clearly are not. otherwise they would have written "they are human until they change form, then they are something else".

we agree, the nightbane RCC is not allowed to take the murdermage OCC, where we seem to disagree is why. i say its because they are not human, not in either form, they are nightbane, and you argue that they are in fact human in their facade form, but they cannot take the OCC because the dark conversions book forbids it - bottom line is the same result. imo an RCC is an RCC, it makes no sense to me that the nightbane switches from the nightbane RCC to human RCC when he or she goes from morphus to facade. i think that this is reading too much into the material and i do not think there are any grounds for it.

my point about the dragon was, that no matter what shape, the dragon is still a dragon, i believe the same to be true for the nightbane. a chiang-ku for example can maintain a metamorphosis for an infinite amount of time, he could be a cat for one thousand years. a nightbane could be in his facade form for one thousand years.

[Blue Eyes]

and they clearly cannot be human because all humans have 25% chance for having psionic powers, nightbanes never have psionics, therefore they cannot be human...

BE

[elecgraystone]

and they clearly cannot be human because all humans have 25% chance for having psionic powers, nightbanes never have psionics, therefore they cannot be human...

BE

Not so, nightbane just come from the 75% of humans that do not have psionics.

Bottom line the RCC states that all nightbane have to be human. IMO that means that they ARE human. If you read the RCC differently, then so be it. There isn't enouph proof on either side to say 100% that either one of us either right or wrong.

I'll agree to disagree whith you on this until they fully explain thing in future nightbane books. (i hope)

[elecgraystone]

Just my .o2, but some slightly related issues.

A duel class earth warlock/murdermage decides to cast transfer intellect to move his essence into a Golem. I don't know what abilities a Murder Mage possesses, but would the character lose them because he no longer qualifies.

Not SDC anymore, loses the ability to use them

Would an immortal character be considered human? One who recieved immortality through divine intervention.

Immortality makes you MDC.

For that matter what about a MegaHero from HU. What if they were created through an accident that a MurderMage had. (Experiment).

It makes you a supernatural being, so no go on being a murder mage.

[Blue Eyes]

hey

elecgraystone wrote: "Not so, nightbane just come from the 75% of humans that do not have psionics."

again i think you use an argument that there is no bias for whatsoever, you read something into the text that just isnt there. when it states that nightbanes NEVER have psionic powers, not even their mystics, then its because they do not possess such powers. 25% of humans possess such powers, so if humans are nightbanes, then 25% of them should have psionics, or at least the mystics should have.

i think the entire idea is put wrong in the first place, its a non-existend dilemma if you will. nightbanes are "humans" with the potential of the supernatural within them. i would classify this as an entirely different species - a nightbane, but at this stage they are still sdc humanoids. this potential for the supernatural will only be awakened if the nightlords ever come near them or threaten their homeworld or dimension in any way. this nightbane species may never develop their supernatural powers, they may be dormant forever, they are like the antibodies of the nightlords. in this dormant state they may learn magic, become murdermages or whatever (except psychics). but imo this would destroy their potential for developing their other supernatural powers, in effect you have a "human" or "nightbane human facade" that has become a murdermage and thereby suppressed his other dormant supernatural abilities, he would never develop them, not even if the nightlords are coming, his potential for the supernatural developed in a different direction. in effect he is a human murdermage, he will never suspect anything else.

once the dormant powers have been awakened then the "nightbane human" is no longer human but a supernatural creature, and in this case he could never become a murdermage because the OCC racial restrictions forbid it as, does the conversion book (dark) which limits the OCC selection drastically.

Razon wrote: "Dark Conversions says they can be any race, not humans only - elves and so on can be banes too.. "

i must admit i havent looked for this, so if it s true then please state the page number. i still feel this would back up my understanding of how the nightbane is to be perceived. the "nightbane humanoid" adapts to the society he or she lives in, they APPEAR to be but they are not humans, not elves, not dwarves they are nightbane!

BE

[elecgraystone]

Dark Conversions says they can be any race, not humans only - elves and so on can be banes too..

No it doesn't. It states that race must be human. Check the RCC out.

i must admit i havent looked for this, so if it s true then please state the page number. i still feel this would back up my understanding of how the nightbane is to be perceived. the "nightbane humanoid" adapts to the society he or she lives in, they APPEAR to be but they are not humans, not elves, not dwarves they are nightbane!

I think looking at the dark conversion book would get you to understand what i'm talking about. It clearly states on page #162, "Racial limitation:Only HUMANS can be nightbane". Not "there facade anways APPEARS human". Must be human is just that, must be human.

[asajosh]

Dark Conversions says they can be any race, not humans only - elves and so on can be banes too..

'Fraid not, bud. Dark Conversions page 162.
Racial Limitation: Only humans can be Nightbane.

[Blue Eyes]

lol okay u chose to comment on my side note, below i have reposted my main argument that you conveniently avoided. and again, the reference to humans in race restrictions refers to the attrubutes rolled, use the human as a platform - nothing more.

again i think you use an argument that there is no bias for whatsoever, you read something into the text that just isnt there. when it states that nightbanes NEVER have psionic powers, not even their mystics, then its because they do not possess such powers. 25% of humans possess such powers, so if humans are nightbanes, then 25% of them should have psionics, or at least the mystics should have.

i think the entire idea is put wrong in the first place, its a non-existend dilemma if you will. nightbanes are "humans" with the potential of the supernatural within them. i would classify this as an entirely different species - a nightbane, but at this stage they are still sdc humanoids. this potential for the supernatural will only be awakened if the nightlords ever come near them or threaten their homeworld or dimension in any way. this nightbane species may never develop their supernatural powers, they may be dormant forever, they are like the antibodies of the nightlords. in this dormant state they may learn magic, become murdermages or whatever (except psychics). but imo this would destroy their potential for developing their other supernatural powers, in effect you have a "human" or "nightbane human facade" that has become a murdermage and thereby suppressed his other dormant supernatural abilities, he would never develop them, not even if the nightlords are coming, his potential for the supernatural developed in a different direction. in effect he is a human murdermage, he will never suspect anything else.

once the dormant powers have been awakened then the "nightbane human" is no longer human but a supernatural creature, and in this case he could never become a murdermage because the OCC racial restrictions forbid it as, does the conversion book (dark) which limits the OCC selection drastically.

after the becoming, the "nightbane human" or "human" is reborn and becomes a nightbane. a creature that comes in thousands of different guises, but all of them have one particular ability in common, they can appear human.

BE

[elecgraystone]

lol okay u chose to comment on my side note, below i have reposted my main argument that you conveniently avoided. and again, the reference to humans in race restrictions refers to the attrubutes rolled, use the human as a platform - nothing more.

If that's the case then why print all the stats? The fact is they HAVE to be human, not appear human.

again i think you use an argument that there is no bias for whatsoever, you read something into the text that just isnt there. when it states that nightbanes NEVER have psionic powers, not even their mystics, then its because they do not possess such powers. 25% of humans possess such powers, so if humans are nightbanes, then 25% of them should have psionics, or at least the mystics should have.

You are reading something that isn't there. Not being able to be psychic has nothing to do with thier being human. They use talents instead of psionics. it's a different focus. Thier PPE is focused into thier nightbane powers, leaving none left over for psionics.

i think the entire idea is put wrong in the first place, its a non-existend dilemma if you will. nightbanes are "humans" with the potential of the supernatural within them. i would classify this as an entirely different species - a nightbane, but at this stage they are still sdc humanoids. this potential for the supernatural will only be awakened if the nightlords ever come near them or threaten their homeworld or dimension in any way. this nightbane species may never develop their supernatural powers, they may be dormant forever, they are like the antibodies of the nightlords. in this dormant state they may learn magic, become murdermages or whatever (except psychics). but imo this would destroy their potential for developing their other supernatural powers, in effect you have a "human" or "nightbane human facade" that has become a murdermage and thereby suppressed his other dormant supernatural abilities, he would never develop them, not even if the nightlords are coming, his potential for the supernatural developed in a different direction. in effect he is a human murdermage, he will never suspect anything else.

Nice idea, but no basis in fact.

once the dormant powers have been awakened then the "nightbane human" is no longer human but a supernatural creature, and in this case he could never become a murdermage because the OCC racial restrictions forbid it as, does the conversion book (dark) which limits the OCC selection drastically.

IMO they are always human AND nightbane. Until the becoming, they just haven't learned how to take on there nightbane form. But again, no basis in fact because the book are vague. It's my best guess based on what i've read.

after the becoming, the "nightbane human" or "human" is reborn and becomes a nightbane. a creature that comes in thousands of different guises, but all of them have one particular ability in common, they can appear human.

BE

Yep, appear human because they ARE human IMO. Again, you might be right or i might be right.

[asajosh]

The whole concept of "Nightbanes are not human and cannot learn Magic OCCs" when the nightbane book has rules for two magic nightbane OCCs doesn't seem logical to me. In my campaigns I'll just use the ideas in NB main book for the NB Sorcerror and adapt to other magic OCCs. EXAMPLE: Choose a magic OCC? No NB Talents (or maybe one) ever. The learning of magic is counter-intuative to NB Talents (NB mainbook). Seems a simple, sensible enough interpretation of the rules.

[asajosh]

IMO they are always human AND nightbane. Until the becoming, they just haven't learned how to take on there nightbane form. But again, no basis in fact because the book are vague. It's my best guess based on what i've read.

Ahh but if the books weren't vague then there would be no wiggle-room for GMs, nor would we get to have these lengthy discussions

[Blue Eyes]

hehe i enjoyed this discussion, but i think you are right elecgraystone, we will probably never agree in this one , no reason to continue in the same track really.

to asajosh: elesgraystone and i actually agree that nightbanes cannot be murdermages, we just have different reasons and arguments, you should be happy, you have 2 arguments as to why a nightbane cannot be a murdermage, take them and use them or dont, it is up to you. neither of us ever said that nightbanes cannot become spellcasters because they can, the problem here is wether they specifically can become murdermages because that OCC has restrictions. if you want to play a nightbane sorceror in rifts then just roll one up using the OCC in the NB main book and then adjust to the rifts setting - simple really

BE

[asajosh]

hehe i enjoyed this discussion, but i think you are right elecgraystone, we will probably never agree in this one , no reason to continue in the same track really.

to asajosh: elesgraystone and i actually agree that nightbanes cannot be murdermages, we just have different reasons and arguments, you should be happy, you have 2 arguments as to why a nightbane cannot be a murdermage, take them and use them or dont, it is up to you. neither of us ever said that nightbanes cannot become spellcasters because they can, the problem here is wether they specifically can become murdermages because that OCC has restrictions. if you want to play a nightbane sorceror in rifts then just roll one up using the OCC in the NB main book and then adjust to the rifts setting - simple really

BE

Indeed, good arguments all.
It was the whole duality of the character that appealed to me. A "human" who appears to be an apprentice mage/healer. But when he's alone (away from the PCs), the nightbane comes out to play with all his murder mage evilness hehe! the BEST part for me would be to see how long the GM and I can keep the other PCs from knowing th truth of this character!

[elecgraystone]

hehe i enjoyed this discussion, but i think you are right elecgraystone, we will probably never agree in this one , no reason to continue in the same track really.

Agreed. Nice debate.

neither of us ever said that nightbanes cannot become spellcasters because they can, the problem here is wether they specifically can become murdermages because that OCC has restrictions. if you want to play a nightbane sorceror in rifts then just roll one up using the OCC in the NB main book and then adjust to the rifts setting - simple really

BE

WELL not quite true. In rifts, for some unknown reason, nightbane can't be practicioners of magic. That's not to say they can't cast magic. They CAN be demon quellers since they are adventurer/scholors. (which would ROCK as a combo) IMO it's silly and it's a great place to break the rules and add a house rule. I'd limit the picks to the rough equivilent of the nightbane picks however (IE mystics and LLW)

[livewire]

demon quellers?? the name sounds familiar but can't place it. what book are they in please? thanks

[elecgraystone]

demon quellers?? the name sounds familiar but can't place it. what book are they in please? thanks

Rifts japan.

[drewkitty ~..~]

if my memory serves me correctly, nightbanes cannot become murder marges. unly sdc humanoids can become murermages, and a nightbane is a nightbane, not a human!!!! on rifts earth nightbanes are creatures of magic with MDC bodies!

BE

NB are Supernatural in their morphus. they are not CoM.


Acording to the Rifts convertion notes in the NB main book, Bane are MDC = to their HP+SDC.

The NB in their facade read as human. (as they do not read as SN in their facade)

as for NB being MM.....you can do the GM FIAT "no they can't" that would be the easyest way. the 2nd easyest way is to kill the NB MM as soon as possible.

when picking out a OCC remember that NB can not be physically trsformed.

[Warwolf]

I'll forward this debate along to the new Nightbane writers. Perhaps they will be able to finally put debates like this to rest.

That would be awesome. As-is it's all vague enouph that you really can see it from both sides.

i kinda got to agree here i can see it from both your points of view but then again the crappy part is cannon backs both of your stories it really needs a mod to sound off on it

Well, I ran it past one of them and got their take on it. Unfortunately, I can't relay the information as anything that they write still has to be approved by Kevin before becoming canon. Thus, hopefully they can address this in the upcoming book or get permission from Kev to post something on the boards.

Looks like you guys will have to wait a bit and pick up the new book.

[elecgraystone]

I'll forward this debate along to the new Nightbane writers. Perhaps they will be able to finally put debates like this to rest.

That would be awesome. As-is it's all vague enouph that you really can see it from both sides.

i kinda got to agree here i can see it from both your points of view but then again the crappy part is cannon backs both of your stories it really needs a mod to sound off on it

Well, I ran it past one of them and got their take on it. Unfortunately, I can't relay the information as anything that they write still has to be approved by Kevin before becoming canon. Thus, hopefully they can address this in the upcoming book or get permission from Kev to post something on the boards.

Looks like you guys will have to wait a bit and pick up the new book.

Thanks for asking!

[drewkitty ~..~]

If you want to make, say, a char with an elf facade, then you'd have to make a nightspawn. It was discussed and mulled over quite a bit, but you could have a sdc/mortal race as the NS's facade. The ratos were set about 98% human facade to 2% other sdc/mortal facades.

[elecgraystone]

If you want to make, say, a char with an elf facade, then you'd have to make a nightspawn. It was discussed and mulled over quite a bit, but you could have a sdc/mortal race as the NS's facade. The ratos were set about 98% human facade to 2% other sdc/mortal facades.

you could before dark convertions. Now you can't. At least not without making a houserule.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If you want to make, say, a char with an elf facade, then you'd have to make a nightspawn. It was discussed and mulled over quite a bit, but you could have a sdc/mortal race as the NS's facade. The ratos were set about 98% human facade to 2% other sdc/mortal facades.

you could before dark convertions. Now you can't. At least not without making a houserule.

You can't make one as a NightBANE, but with a nightSpawn you can. The rules in DC say that NightBane can only have a human facade, saying nothing about nightspawn. I don't use the NB rules in DC because they munchkinize NB, so I use only nightspawn now, they still use the convertion notes in the main book, theyt're simple and fine.

[elecgraystone]

You can't make one as a NightBANE, but with a nightSpawn you can. The rules in DC say that NightBane can only have a human facade, saying nothing about nightspawn. I don't use the NB rules in DC because they munchkinize NB, so I use only nightspawn now, they still use the convertion notes in the main book, theyt're simple and fine.

Nightbane=nightspawn. It was just a simple name change to avoid legal problems. It should be noted that the nightspawn book, under using other palladium books (PG#203), doesn't say anything about non-humans becoming nightspawn. It wasn't until between the shadows (a nightbane book), that you see other races being able to be NIGHTBANE. (PG#142). So i don't see what the difference.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Nightbane=nightspawn. It was just a simple name change to avoid legal problems. It should be noted that the nightspawn book, under using other palladium books (PG#203), doesn't say anything about non-humans becoming nightspawn. ...snip

I was around when NS came out so I have a NS main book, so I know all about the reasons for the name change. To get to MY point, the NB rules in DC are munchinizing the NB in the rifts setting, so I make NS out of protest and to be able to iggnore the munchkinish NB rules in DC.

While the NS/NB main book doesn't say anyone other then humans can be NB, nor does it say that other mortal races can't be ether.

[elecgraystone]

I was around when NS came out so I have a NS main book, so I know all about the reasons for the name change. To get to MY point, the NB rules in DC are munchinizing the NB in the rifts setting, so I make NS out of protest and to be able to iggnore the munchkinish NB rules in DC.

While the NS/NB main book doesn't say anyone other then humans can be NB, nor does it say that other mortal races can't be ether.

Yes, because the base sdc race is human. There ARE no elves, ogres or atlantians in NB/NS, so yes it didn't say any thing about what isn't there. You can house-rule it, but it's still a house-rule.

[Nekira Sudacne]

i would think that the fact that there exists a talent that makes the character split the two implies that they normally are not. i am sorry but i just dont buy it. i have played a nightbane a few times and "the becoming" natural ability states they appear to be human, after the becoming they have two identities, one facade and one monster. the monster form is the nightbanes true form, the human form is used to blend in. the nightbanes average lifespan says it all: unknown or 5000+ years.
the bottom line is, someone decided that murdermages can be sdc humanoids only, and a nightbane is a supernatural monster that is "conditioned" in that it can only unleash its powers when it reveals its true visage, the facade form is still a nightbane, but in human form. its not one mind sharing two bodies, its one mind one body that can change appearance. the "reshape facade" talent allows the nightbane to alter the appearance of the facade by spending PPE, this is not more than a simple metamorphosis ability, just like the one the dragon possesses. in fact a dragon has almost an infinite of natural forms, nightbanes have "only" two (or more with special talents).

BE

Well, considering how the murder mage is an unoffical OCC in the first place, one person's deciding something isn't right is every bit as right as saying something in the first place.