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I understand that the Speed attribute is only for how fast they run, however there are at least 2 instances that I have found that contradict that.

In RUE, pg 284, Under the Speed penalties for a 6 or lower, it penalizes the char -1 initiative and a -1 dodge. Now that right there shows that the Speed attribute has something more to do than how fast the legs can carry the body, otherwise there wouldnt be those penalties.

Also, the spell Superhuman Speed riases the speed attribute to 44 and gives a +2 parry and a +6 to dodge. Now the spell does nothing more than increase the character's speed, however, if you character could run at a speed of 44 normally, by the rules, he wouldnt get any other bonuses except how fast he can run.

I mean, if one is to go by the rules specifically, then if you had a 5 in Speed, it would not penalize your initiative and dodge, since speed is only good for how fast you are, right? And Superhuman SPeed should not give any bonuses other than how fast you can run, since Speed is ONLY for how fast you can run.

Now, I dont know if this is errata of some sort, something that has been overlooked, or if Kevin plans on answering this in the future, but as it stands now, it very clearly contradicts itself very nicely.

So, does anyone have anything that can help me out, since I am in quite a quandry here.

Well personally I'm with you on the fact that speed should give bonuses of some sort...however...

In RUE, pg 284, Under the Speed penalties for a 6 or lower, it penalizes the char -1 initiative and a -1 dodge. Now that right there shows that the Speed attribute has something more to do than how fast the legs can carry the body, otherwise there wouldnt be those penalties.

Speed is always useful...slow targets are easy pickings for snipers and if you can't keep up with your opponent in a chase or if your moving around in a fight and keep up your going to be a big disadvantage...

If you want to give speed some bonuses when you reach a certain level like the other stats...that means anything that can go faster than a typical human will benefit immensly just from speed...like a samas...juicers or borgs...but thats if you did it in the same fashion as the other stats...every X amount of points above 17 = X bonus to whatever...

It would probably be easier to just assign a penalty to anyone trying to hit something going at a said speed than apply bonuses...like the book says...speed is its own reward...

Also, the spell Superhuman Speed riases the speed attribute to 44 and gives a +2 parry and a +6 to dodge. Now the spell does nothing more than increase the character's speed, however, if you character could run at a speed of 44 normally, by the rules, he wouldnt get any other bonuses except how fast he can run.

Simple...its magically granted bonuses...nothing more

So, does anyone have anything that can help me out, since I am in quite a quandry here.

Just issue penalties for people attacking a target moving at a certain speed...this isn't Dragon Ball Z...characters in rifts can't move so fast that they teleport...

-1 to strike parry and dodge per 50 mph seems ok...at 500 mph you'd have a -10 to strike, parry or dodge that target which would be like trying to parry or dodge a bullet...then you could say -1 for every 200 past that...so if you were fighting people who had supersonic speed and could fly/run at mach 2+ it wouldn't be so rediculously hard to hit them...though I think in HU their may be rules for fighting against high speed opponents...if not there try VU...I know there is something mentioned in there because a few villains in there are super speed types (a full group if I remember correctly) and it lists bonuses and penalties for them plus for situations.

No, see, I was wondering if there is anying in canon, in a rifter, or said by anyone at PB that would help make sense out of this. I am not looking to House Rule it. Just wanting to know if it is errata, or why it was done this way.

verdilak wrote:I understand that the Speed attribute is only for how fast they run, however there are at least 2 instances that I have found that contradict that.

Only two?!? What about all flying creatures having flying speed listed for their Spd attribute? Or Swimming Speed for aquatic creatures listed under Spd attribute? Or the fact that all vehicles have a listed Speed, which doesn't necessarily indicate that the vehicle can "run"?

In RUE, pg 284, Under the Speed penalties for a 6 or lower, it penalizes the char -1 initiative and a -1 dodge. Now that right there shows that the Speed attribute has something more to do than how fast the legs can carry the body, otherwise there wouldnt be those penalties.

Also, the spell Superhuman Speed riases the speed attribute to 44 and gives a +2 parry and a +6 to dodge. Now the spell does nothing more than increase the character's speed, however, if you character could run at a speed of 44 normally, by the rules, he wouldnt get any other bonuses except how fast he can run.

I mean, if one is to go by the rules specifically, then if you had a 5 in Speed, it would not penalize your initiative and dodge, since speed is only good for how fast you are, right? And Superhuman SPeed should not give any bonuses other than how fast you can run, since Speed is ONLY for how fast you can run.

Now, I dont know if this is errata of some sort, something that has been overlooked, or if Kevin plans on answering this in the future, but as it stands now, it very clearly contradicts itself very nicely.

So, does anyone have anything that can help me out, since I am in quite a quandry here.

As for the spell Superhuman Speed, just because the spell gives you bonuses, doesn't mean they're tied into running speed.

However, if you're really interested, there's two things.
One is the randomly determined speed attribute on page 117 of Land of the Damned 1 with a whole host of bonuses and penalties for different levels of speeds.

Two, there used to be dodge bonuses for the Speed attribute, you can still find them in the older books like original Ninjas & Superspies or early editions of the TMNT RPG.

On the other hand, given that they want the Speed attribute to only represent running speed (qualifiers: or Swimming or Flying if that's the creature's normal mode of locomotion, but not vehicle speed since it's not an "attribute" per se), then the bonuses and/or penalties should only apply if the character (player or non-player) is "running."

Personally, I'm all for dumping the Speed attribute as an individually rolled attribute (along with P.B.).

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:

verdilak wrote:I understand that the Speed attribute is only for how fast they run, however there are at least 2 instances that I have found that contradict that.

Only two?!? What about all flying creatures having flying speed listed for their Spd attribute? Or Swimming Speed for aquatic creatures listed under Spd attribute? Or the fact that all vehicles have a listed Speed, which doesn't necessarily indicate that the vehicle can "run"?

In RUE, pg 284, Under the Speed penalties for a 6 or lower, it penalizes the char -1 initiative and a -1 dodge. Now that right there shows that the Speed attribute has something more to do than how fast the legs can carry the body, otherwise there wouldnt be those penalties.

Also, the spell Superhuman Speed riases the speed attribute to 44 and gives a +2 parry and a +6 to dodge. Now the spell does nothing more than increase the character's speed, however, if you character could run at a speed of 44 normally, by the rules, he wouldnt get any other bonuses except how fast he can run.

I mean, if one is to go by the rules specifically, then if you had a 5 in Speed, it would not penalize your initiative and dodge, since speed is only good for how fast you are, right? And Superhuman SPeed should not give any bonuses other than how fast you can run, since Speed is ONLY for how fast you can run.

Now, I dont know if this is errata of some sort, something that has been overlooked, or if Kevin plans on answering this in the future, but as it stands now, it very clearly contradicts itself very nicely.

So, does anyone have anything that can help me out, since I am in quite a quandry here.

As for the spell Superhuman Speed, just because the spell gives you bonuses, doesn't mean they're tied into running speed.

However, if you're really interested, there's two things.
One is the randomly determined speed attribute on page 117 of Land of the Damned 1 with a whole host of bonuses and penalties for different levels of speeds.

Two, there used to be dodge bonuses for the Speed attribute, you can still find them in the older books like original Ninjas & Superspies or early editions of the TMNT RPG.

On the other hand, given that they want the Speed attribute to only represent running speed (qualifiers: or Swimming or Flying if that's the creature's normal mode of locomotion, but not vehicle speed since it's not an "attribute" per se), then the bonuses and/or penalties should only apply if the character (player or non-player) is "running."

Personally, I'm all for dumping the Speed attribute as an individually rolled attribute (along with P.B.).

Huh? why's that? and what do you want to do with PB instead?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Huh? why's that? and what do you want to do with PB instead?

As to why replace it, it makes no sense to have an attribute that's subjective instead of objective. That is, there is no measurable quanity of "beauty" as each individual (not too mention different races) has a different standard of beauty. The other attributes can all be measured against something, i.e. how smart someone is, how charismatic they are, how much willpower they have, how strong, fast, dextrous, or healthy they are, etc.

Here's what I'll do with it: http://www.geocities.com/kuseru/beauty.htm

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Huh? why's that? and what do you want to do with PB instead?

As to why replace it, it makes no sense to have an attribute that's subjective instead of objective. That is, there is no measurable quanity of "beauty" as each individual (not too mention different races) has a different standard of beauty. The other attributes can all be measured against something, i.e. how smart someone is, how charismatic they are, how much willpower they have, how strong, fast, dextrous, or healthy they are, etc.

Here's what I'll do with it: http://www.geocities.com/kuseru/beauty.htm

Maybe, but there are some standards. After all, you may overcome initial attractiveness/repulsiveness, but no one is ever gonna think Quasi Moto is beautiful in the physical sense, and no one is ever gonna think Esmeralda is ugly. THey may debate on how high or low they are, but the fact is, there is a standard, simply not an easially defined one.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Huh? why's that? and what do you want to do with PB instead?

As to why replace it, it makes no sense to have an attribute that's subjective instead of objective. That is, there is no measurable quanity of "beauty" as each individual (not too mention different races) has a different standard of beauty. The other attributes can all be measured against something, i.e. how smart someone is, how charismatic they are, how much willpower they have, how strong, fast, dextrous, or healthy they are, etc.

Here's what I'll do with it: http://www.geocities.com/kuseru/beauty.htm

Maybe, but there are some standards. After all, you may overcome initial attractiveness/repulsiveness, but no one is ever gonna think Quasi Moto is beautiful in the physical sense, and no one is ever gonna think Esmeralda is ugly. THey may debate on how high or low they are, but the fact is, there is a standard, simply not an easially defined one.

what about races that have a different definition of beauty....i am pretty sure that an orcs concept of beauty and ours are not the same.

NulSyn wrote:

verdilak wrote:No, see, I was wondering if there is anying in canon, in a rifter, or said by anyone at PB that would help make sense out of this. I am not looking to House Rule it. Just wanting to know if it is errata, or why it was done this way.

RUE page 361 wrote:Shooting at a moving target: -1 to strike some one running under 20mph, -1 to strike /additional 50mph and another -1 if target is being evasive ie zigzagging.

Thank you Nul!

To throw even more monkey wrenches in the works...

1ed N&SS (don't know about 2nd) gave a dodge bonus due to high Spd.
HOWEVER, this bonus was when you are running/moving quickly only! While walking down the street, it had no effect.

Speed rating is primarily how fast you can move. But, there is an added effect...the faster you can move, the more "fast twitch" muscle fibers you have, which means the faster you can react to a situation.

As for the Superhuman Speed giving the additional bonuses, you have to remember that that kind of speed is "outside the human experience," and therefor also likely to give additional bonuses. Think about DC's Flash...he uses his speed to duck/dodge even when standing still. SS probably does something similar.

Borast wrote:To throw even more monkey wrenches in the works...

1ed N&SS (don't know about 2nd) gave a dodge bonus due to high Spd.
HOWEVER, this bonus was when you are running/moving quickly only! While walking down the street, it had no effect.

Speed rating is primarily how fast you can move. But, there is an added effect...the faster you can move, the more "fast twitch" muscle fibers you have, which means the faster you can react to a situation.

As for the Superhuman Speed giving the additional bonuses, you have to remember that that kind of speed is "outside the human experience," and therefor also likely to give additional bonuses. Think about DC's Flash...he uses his speed to duck/dodge even when standing still. SS probably does something similar.

And there comes the second answer I was looking for. I mean, if a low speed affects you negatively, then a high speed should add bonuses. Thanks.

I have never liked the Spd attribute the way that Palladium has worked it because how fast someone can run is proportionate to their strength and agility.

A character with a PS of 10 and a PP of 10 should not be faster than a character with a PS of 15 and a PP of 15 just because he happened to roll better on his stat roll for his speed attribute.

I have Spd has a derived attribute based on PS and PP. My formula is:

PS+PP/2 for the base number.

If a race has a bonus to Spd then it gets added in after the base number is determined. Skill or Class bonuses to Spd get added in after the base as well as they would normally be handled.

Gizbotvas wrote:

Devjannz wrote:I have never liked the Spd attribute the way that Palladium has worked it because how fast someone can run is proportionate to their strength and agility.

A character with a PS of 10 and a PP of 10 should not be faster than a character with a PS of 15 and a PP of 15 just because he happened to roll better on his stat roll for his speed attribute.

I disagree with your premise. I am a weightlifter and I am quite a bit stronger than your average person. I also play video games and have a practiced hand-eye-coordination thing going, but I am slow as a troll. If I were to draft a char sheet of myself I would give myself higher than average marks in PS and PP, but lower than average SPD.

Furthermore someone much smaller (i.e. weaker) and less agile could still pull a gun faster, throw something before I could, etc.

Let's not confuse Speed with Accuracy (accuracy being PP).

I realize it is not perfect but to me it gives me a more realistic number than just rolling and letting how fast someone is be an arbitrary number.