Forums of the Megaverse®

From the "why do you love cyberknights" thread.

DocS and I have agreed to terms (more or less) and are going to run some simulations to see which is tougher, and by how much, between a main-book CK and a main-book Grunt.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I'm revising each character as you suggested.
For each die roll for attribute bonuses, I'm assuming average (3.5 for d6, 2.5 for d4, etc.), rounding up where appropriate.

Sir Robin
H.P. 22 S.D.C. 113
Cyber-Armor: 50 MDC, A.R. 16
Gladiator Armor: 70 MDC

P.S. 21
P.P. 12
P.E. 18
Spd. 27

+1 initiative
4 attacks
+3 Parry
+3 Dodge
+10 Roll

Skills:
Demon Lore: 45%
Body Building
Gymnastics
HTH: Martial Arts
W.P. Sword +1 strike, +1 parry
Running
Wrestling
Acrobatics
Athletics
Sniper (+2 on Aimed Shot with rifles)
W.P. Energy Pistol
W.P. Energy Rifle

Equipment
-Wilk's 447 Laser Rifle: 3d6 MD, 20 shots per clip
-NG-57 Ion Pistol: 3d6 MD, 10 shots per clip
-3 spare E-Clips
-Psi-Sword: 1d6 MD
-2 Canteens (6d6 MD)

Private Joe
H.P. 19 S.D.C. 80
Heavy Deadboy Armor: 80 MDC

P.S. 19
P.P. 11
P.E. 15
Spd. 24

3 attacks
+3 Parry
+3 Dodge
+8 Roll

Skills:
Body Building
Running
W.P. Energy Pistol
W.P. Energy Rifle
HTH: Martial Arts
Athletics
Body Building
Boxing
Gymnastics
Running
Wrestling
Demolotions
Demon Lore: 25%

Equipment
-????? Laser Rifle:

-C-18 Laser Pistol: 2d4 per shot
10 shots per short clip.
-Four extra clips per weapon
-Two grenades: 2 plasma (5d6 MD)
-1 Canteen (6d6 MD)


Assuming that the above is agreed upon, once we nail down the Grunt's rifle situation, then that leaves 4 issues that I can think of:
-Canteen use. One action/attack to use the canteen? Or two; one to open it and one to splash?
I assume that each character gets one free Demon Lore check per combat, no more?
-Rate Of Fire
Officially, any weapons that had ROF: Standard (or Aimed, Burst, Wild), that didn't have a pre-set burst, could burst/spray as per the rules on p. 34 of the main book.
This means that the Wilk's 447, the NG-57, and the C-18 were all burst/spray capable. The C-14's laser was burst-capable, and the grenades could be fired in volleys of up to 4.
-The Cyberknight gets one suit of light armor in addition to his heavy armor. I assume that we're not going to give any time to rest between attackers, but wanted to make sure.
-We typically play that, against MDC creatures that don't list MDC per body location, that a called shot to the head inflicts 2x normal damage.
Agreeable?

You forgot to put in that humorous swimming monster who is harmed by water.

Giant2005 wrote:You forgot to put in that humorous swimming monster who is harmed by water.

Yes I did.
I'm hoping that one of the mods will move that post over from the other thread.

As for the monster, he obviously is used to swimming in liquids other than water.

Which only leaves the CS Grunt's Rifle.

<sigh>.

So, we run it all 3 ways. C-12, run the way the lions share of people who've read the book think it should be run, that way this will be applicable for the largest portion of people reading the results.

C-12, the minority interpretation way (5 shot burst does 4d6), which leaves the question, can this weapon also long burst/full clip burst? I could go either way here. This way the 6% can see if their way results in a greater balance.

And C14-firebreather, but with the caveat that this is not the best weapon for this purpose.

The CS soldier has Body Building and Running twice.

If you are using RUE, I'd add Forced March and either Kick Boxing or Physical Labor.

Alejandro wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:You forgot to put in that humorous swimming monster who is harmed by water.

Yes I did.
I'm hoping that one of the mods will move that post over from the other thread.

As for the monster, he obviously is used to swimming in liquids other than water.

Ah yes...the infamous Urine Demon.

Or blood.
Or mercury.
Or oil.
Or any number of liquids that aren't water.

DocS wrote:Which only leaves the CS Grunt's Rifle.

<sigh>.

So, we run it all 3 ways. C-12, run the way the lions share of people who've read the book think it should be run, that way this will be applicable for the largest portion of people reading the results.

By this, I assume you mean "The wrong way".
But okay; we'll do both.

C-12, the minority interpretation way (5 shot burst does 4d6), which leaves the question, can this weapon also long burst/full clip burst? I could go either way here. This way the 6% can see if their way results in a greater balance.

Unfortunately, the C-12 is not capable of long bursts, only the 5-shot preset burst.

And C14-firebreather, but with the caveat that this is not the best weapon for this purpose.

It's better than the Wilk's rifle that the CK is stuck with.

Killer Cyborg wrote:By this, I assume you mean "The wrong way".

Correct, such is the nature of compromise, each of us will do it the way they think it should be done, and the 'incorrect' way.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Unfortunately, the C-12 is not capable of long bursts, only the 5-shot preset burst.

First thing my model shows, is that this makes the C-12 inferior to the Wilks, the C-10, and literally every other rifle in the main book. It literally makes the C-12, the *worst* rifle in the book.

With the CS grunt able to do a maximum of 4D6 per attack (by using his rifle) when the CK can do 3d6x5 (a long burst) on one attack.

Which means, that to kill the beastie using that rules interp, the first thing the CS grunt reaches for is his burst-able pistol, which, again, has more firepower than his Heavy infantry rifle... I'm seeing his most effective tactic is to full-burst his pistol at the beastie rather than shooting his rifle.

The second thing, once the Pistol clips are spent, are the grenades, which, again, do more damage than his Rifle. Then he's reduced to his Rifle, wherupon he is killed long before he runs out of ammo since he can't burst it to get enough damage to kill the beastie in less than a round and a half....

Let me know, is this how the model is going on your end?

Killer Cyborg wrote:
It's better than the Wilk's rifle that the CK is stuck with.

Another thing, I'm not finding that the C-14 is better than the Wilks. The CS soldier starts out bursting the C-14 (as the CK is doing similarly with his Wilks gun), When that runs out, the Grunt reaches, for his burstable pistol (as the Cyberknight does the same), and by the time these grenades come into play, the Grunt is again, dead.

My model is assuming that the Character is, at every opportunity, doing the most effective attack he has on the beastie.

I should be able to have everything done on Thursday night and posted by Friday or this weekend.

Remember, we're doing first and fifth level.

And just a note, please jot down how much damage the Cyber-armor takes before the cyberknight dies, we will be able to average the damage values to determine a good estimate of how much MDC armor rating 16 50 MDC armor is..

Are you counting it as taking one attack to switch weapons?

The Grunt still isn't getting his third weapon of the non energy variety...

Giant2005 wrote:The Grunt still isn't getting his third weapon of the non energy variety...

Well, Doc's aready started his simulations, so it's a bit late now.
Besides, I can't think of any non-energy weapons in the main book that a CS grunt would be likely to carry that would make much difference.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

DocS wrote:Which only leaves the CS Grunt's Rifle.

<sigh>.

So, we run it all 3 ways. C-12, run the way the lions share of people who've read the book think it should be run, that way this will be applicable for the largest portion of people reading the results.

By this, I assume you mean "The wrong way".
But okay; we'll do both.

Why use the C-12 at all? These days the CP-40 is the standard battle rifle for the CS Army and most Dead Boy soldiers. Hell, even the lowly Dog Boys have the option of carrying the Forty as of WB:13.

Also, why are the combatants restricted with 4 and 3 attacks per melee respectively at 1st level? Unless they both have HtH Assassin that should be at the very least 5 & 4 APM at 1st level and 6 & 5 for the 5th level simulation.

Dead Boy wrote:Why use the C-12 at all? These days the CP-40 is the standard battle rifle for the CS Army and most Dead Boy soldiers. Hell, even the lowly Dog Boys have the option of carrying the Forty as of WB:13.

Also, why are the combatants restricted with 4 and 3 attacks per melee respectively at 1st level? Unless they both have HtH Assassin that should be at the very least 5 & 4 APM at 1st level and 6 & 5 for the 5th level simulation.

I think the are using the old rules.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are you counting it as taking one attack to switch weapons?

Yeah,

How are you doing horror factor?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:The Grunt still isn't getting his third weapon of the non energy variety...

Well, Doc's aready started his simulations, so it's a bit late now.
Besides, I can't think of any non-energy weapons in the main book that a CS grunt would be likely to carry that would make much difference.

On the one hand, that Big CS rocket launcher does qualify as a non-energy weapon.... as do Railguns... Am at work at the moment, I will look up when home. Hmmm.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

DocS wrote:Which only leaves the CS Grunt's Rifle.

<sigh>.

So, we run it all 3 ways. C-12, run the way the lions share of people who've read the book think it should be run, that way this will be applicable for the largest portion of people reading the results.

By this, I assume you mean "The wrong way".
But okay; we'll do both.

C-12, the minority interpretation way (5 shot burst does 4d6), which leaves the question, can this weapon also long burst/full clip burst? I could go either way here. This way the 6% can see if their way results in a greater balance.

Unfortunately, the C-12 is not capable of long bursts, only the 5-shot preset burst.

Well, if your going by the new rules, the Grunt should get the New CS Heavy armor with 200 MDC and enhanced strength.

The CK is probally going to win this one

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:The Grunt still isn't getting his third weapon of the non energy variety...

Well, Doc's aready started his simulations, so it's a bit late now.
Besides, I can't think of any non-energy weapons in the main book that a CS grunt would be likely to carry that would make much difference.

At fifth level, it would hardly be unreasonable to assume that he picked up a minor TW weapon of some sort. hi IS psionic and thus can use them.

There's also the concept that the CK is not looking for a KILL. He would most likely be trying to incapacitate the Grunt...

This is not a mere "slugfest"...

Shadyslug wrote:There's also the concept that the CK is not looking for a KILL. He would most likely be trying to incapacitate the Grunt...

This is not a mere "slugfest"...

Why?

In the lengthy discription fight in the SoT book of the one guarding Erin Tarn, he killed 4 CS grunts adn only the one still alive was teh one in power armor.

Cyber Knights arn't cops. If anything there's more likely to not be any law in the area to take them back TO in the first place.

They aren't fighting each other, they're each fighting the same monster, to see who does better.

Dead Boy wrote:Why use the C-12 at all? These days the CP-40 is the standard battle rifle for the CS Army and most Dead Boy soldiers. Hell, even the lowly Dog Boys have the option of carrying the Forty as of WB:13.

The disagreement is over the relative power of the main book cyberknights.
I believe that they were plenty powerful when Rifts came out, Doc disagrees.
So we're setting back the clock and assuming that all we have is the main book.

Also, why are the combatants restricted with 4 and 3 attacks per melee respectively at 1st level? Unless they both have HtH Assassin that should be at the very least 5 & 4 APM at 1st level and 6 & 5 for the 5th level simulation.

See above.

DocS wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are you counting it as taking one attack to switch weapons?

Yeah,

How are you doing horror factor?

I still haven't quite started yet, but my take is to roll once, at the beginning of the encounter, before initiative, and suffer the penalties listed on p. 114 if you fail the check.
For the purposes of this simulation, I'd treat the entire combat as one encounter, since there's no rest between monsters.
So you only need to roll HF once per simulation, not once per monster fought.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:The Grunt still isn't getting his third weapon of the non energy variety...

Well, Doc's aready started his simulations, so it's a bit late now.
Besides, I can't think of any non-energy weapons in the main book that a CS grunt would be likely to carry that would make much difference.

On the one hand, that Big CS rocket launcher does qualify as a non-energy weapon.... as do Railguns... Am at work at the moment, I will look up when home. Hmmm.

Yeah, I kind of discounted those because I wouldn't let a PC get away with picking that stuff, but for these purposes anything the grunt could
carry around and use (that's in the main book) is fair game, I suppose.
(Although Railguns are considered to be "Heavy Energy" weapons, so they're out)

Of course, the CK also gets an "Ancient Weapon of Choice", which I generally allow to include vibro-blades, neural maces, and other high-tech versions of ancient weapons.
So if the Grunt gets his other weapon, the CK should as well.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Shadyslug wrote:There's also the concept that the CK is not looking for a KILL. He would most likely be trying to incapacitate the Grunt...

This is not a mere "slugfest"...

Why?

In the lengthy discription fight in the SoT book of the one guarding Erin Tarn, he killed 4 CS grunts adn only the one still alive was teh one in power armor.

Cyber Knights arn't cops. If anything there's more likely to not be any law in the area to take them back TO in the first place.

Right.
Unless the Grunt were to surrender and/or drop his weapons, there's no real reason why the CK wouldn't kill him.

But, as Talavar pointed out:

Talavar wrote:They aren't fighting each other, they're each fighting the same monster, to see who does better.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Besides, I can't think of any non-energy weapons in the main book that a CS grunt would be likely to carry that would make much difference.

CR-1 Rocket Launcher?

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Of course, the CK also gets an "Ancient Weapon of Choice", which I generally allow to include vibro-blades, neural maces, and other high-tech versions of ancient weapons.
So if the Grunt gets his other weapon, the CK should as well.

When I see archeological evidence that the pre-industrial Aztecs carried around weapons utilizing localized enery fields, then I will count a vibro-blade as an 'ancient weapon'.

The Grunt should get a non-energy weapon of choice, and the Cyberknight should get an ancient weapon of choice. The CR-1 is not an energy weapon, and thus would qualify (but Ironically, my first thought, a Vibroblade, definitively *Is* an energy weapon). And the cyberknight gets to have any weapon that could be found before 1200 AD. I guess a catapult would apply.

DocS wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Of course, the CK also gets an "Ancient Weapon of Choice", which I generally allow to include vibro-blades, neural maces, and other high-tech versions of ancient weapons.
So if the Grunt gets his other weapon, the CK should as well.

When I see archeological evidence that the pre-industrial Aztecs carried around weapons utilizing localized enery fields, then I will count a vibro-blade as an 'ancient weapon'.

If you've been arming your CKs with pre-industrial Aztec weapons, no wonder they haven't lived up to your expectations.

Vibro-blades require W.P. Knife (or sword, etc.), which is an "Ancient Weapon Proficiency".
For the purposed of the game, they're considered "Ancient Weapons".

The Grunt should get a non-energy weapon of choice, and the Cyberknight should get an ancient weapon of choice. The CR-1 is not an energy weapon, and thus would qualify (but Ironically, my first thought, a Vibroblade, definitively *Is* an energy weapon). And the cyberknight gets to have any weapon that could be found before 1200 AD. I guess a catapult would apply.

Actually, Vibro-Knives are NOT energy weapons (although the description makes them seem that way).
Rifts, p. 250, under Monster Weaknesses (Energy)
"Kinetic energy/attacks, including mega-damage punches from robots and power armor, vibro-blades, explosive/missiles, railguns, and bullets, do NO damage!"

So a vibro-blade would be valid.

As for the CR-1, if you want to be overly picky, which it appears you do, then no plasma missiles; plasma is energy.

In any case, here are the five simulations I ran with the Cyber-Knight.

Simulation 1:
Sir Robin fails his HF check.

Round 1:
Monster: Fire Bolt, 7 strike, 19 MD (Robin has 51 left)
Sir Robin: Long Burst, 2 strike, Miss
R: Long Burst, 13 strike, 36 MD
R: Reload

Round 2:
Monster wins init.
M: Firebolt, 15 strike (6 dodge),14 damage (37 left)
R: Aimed, 6 strike, 12 MD
R: Aimed, 23 strike, 10 MD (KILL)

Round 3:
Robin wins init.
R: Waits for Monster
M: Firebolt, 22 strike (23 dodge), Miss
R: Long Burst, 12 strike, 60 MD (KILL)

Round 4:
Robin wins init.
R: Waits for Monster to attack.
M: Fire Bolt, 18 strike (14 dodge), 21 MD (16 left)
R: Short Burst, 6 strike, 18 MD
R: Short Burst, 18 strike, 13 MD

Round 5:
Monster wins init.
M: Firebolt, 20 strike (dodge 22), Miss.
R: Reloads.
R: Long Burst, 18 strike, 55 MD (KILL)

Round 6:
Robin wins init.
R: Waits.
M: Fire Bolt, 16 strike (23 dodge), Miss.
R: Long Burst, 6 strike, 55 MD (KILL)

Round 7:
Monster wins init.
M: Firebolt, 8 strike (11 dodge), Miss.
R: Short Burst, 8 strike, 24 MD
R: Short Burst, 10 strike, 20 MD
R: Aimed, 20 strike, 11 MD (KILL)

Round 8:
Monster wins init.
M: Firebolt, 20 strike (7 dodge), 15 MD (1 MDC left)
R: Long Burst, 2 strike, Miss.
R: Aimed, 12 strike, 14 MD
R: Reload.

Round 9:
Robin wins init.
R: Long Burst, 2 strike, Miss.
M: Simo (Firebolt), 6 strike, 14 MD (armor absorbs 1 MD, rest goes to Cyber-Armor, dropping it to 37 MD)
R: Long Burst, 18 strike, 45 MD (KILL)
R: Switches to Ion Pistol

Round 10:
Monster wins init.
M: Firebolt, Natural 20, 32 damage (Kills Robin)
R: Simo (Long Burst), 55 MD (KILL)

Overall:
7 Kills
13 damage to Cyber Armor

Simulation 2:
Robin makes HF check.

Round 1:
Monster wins init.
M: Firebolt, 17 strike (5 dodge), 16 MD (Robin has 54 left)
R: Long Burst, 7 strike, 25 MD
R: Short Burst, 7 strike, 18 MD
R: Aimed, 15 strike, 12 MD (KILL)

Round 2:
Monster wins init.
M: Firebolt, 17 strike (19 dodge), Miss.
R: Short Burst, 19 strike, 18 MD
R: Aimed, 22 strike, 10 MD
R: Reload

Round 3:
Monster wins init.
M: Firebolt, 10 strike (7 dodge), 13 MD (41 left)
R: Short Burst, 3 strike, Miss.
R: Short Burst, 10 strike, 21 MD (KILL)

Round 4:
M: Firebolt, Natural 20 (dodge 18 ), 16 MD
R: Long Burst, 2 strike, Miss.
R: Aimed, 22 strike, 10 MD
R: Aimed, 9 strike, 8 MD

Round 5:
M: Firebolt, 15 strike (dodge 12), 18 MD
R: Reload
R: Long Burst, Natural 20, 120 MD (KILL)

Round 6:
M: Firebolt, 22 strike, 14 MD (Kills Sir Robin)
R: Simo (Long Burst), 15 strike, 45 MD

Overall:
3 Kills
0 Cyber-Armor Damage

Simulation 3:
Robin makes HF check.

Round 1:
R: Waits
M: Firebolt 15 (9 dodge), 13 MD (57 left)
R: Long Burst, 3 strike, Miss.
R: Long Burst, 8 strike, 45 MD

Round 2:
M: Firebolt, 21 strike (dodge 12), 10 MD (47 left)
R: Reloads.
R: Aimed, 23 strike, 12 MD (KILL)

Round 3:
M: Firebolt, 14 strike (dodge 5), 10 MD (37 left)
R: Long Burst, 8 strike, 50 MD (KILL)

Round 4:
M: Firebolt, 11 strike (dodge 14), Miss.
R: Short Burst, 3 strike, Miss.
R: Short Burst, 18 strike, 21 MD
R: Aimed, 22 strike, 13 MD

Round 5:
M: Firebolt, 6 strike (7 dodge), Miss.
R: Reloads.
R: Aimed, 23 strike, 10 MD
R: Aimed, 21 strike, 14 MD (KILL)

Round 6:
R: Waits.
M: Firbolt 7 (dodge 15), Miss.
R: Long Burst, 14 strike, 50 MD (KILL)

Round 7:
M: Firebolt, 21 strike (dodge 6), 18 MD (19 left)
R: Short Burst, 20 strike, 17 MD
R: Aimed, 19 strike, 9 MD
R: Aimed, 24 strike, 9 MD

Round 8:
M: Firebolt 18 (Dodge 14), 15 MD (4 left)
R: Aimed, 19 strike, 14 MD (KILL)

Round 9:
M: Firebolt, 20 strike, 12 MD (Kills Sir Robin)
R: Simo (Aimed, 14 strike, 13 MD)

Overall:
5 kills.
0 Cyber Armor Damage.

Simulation 4:
Robin makes HF check.

Round 1:
R: Waits.
M: Firebolt, 12 strike (dodge 19), Miss.
R: Long Burst, 8 strike, 75 MD (KILL)

Round 2:
M: Firebolt, 19 strike (dodge 8 ), 16 MD (54 left)
R: Long Burst, 15 strike, 55 MD (KILL)

Round 3:
R: Waits.
M: Firebolt, 14 strike (dodge 11), 18 MD (36 left)
R: Long Burst, 19 strike, 50 MD (KILL)

Round 4:
R: Waits.
M: Firebolt, 14 strike (19 dodge), Miss.
R: Long Burst, 9 strike, 75 MD (KILL)
R: Reload.

Round 5:
R: Waits.
M: Firebolt, 14 strike (4 dodge), 13 MD (23 left)
R: Long Burst, 9 strike, 90 MD (KILL)

Round 6:
M: Firebolt, 12 strike (dodge 13), Miss.
R: Long Burst, 13 strike, 65 MD (KILL)
R: Reload.

Round 7:
M: Firebolt, 14 (dodge 14), 13 MD (10 left)
R: Long Burst, 15 strike, 40 MD
R: Aimed, 15 strike, 10 MD (KILL)

Round 8:
R: Short Burst, 3 strike, Miss.
M: Simo (Firebolt), 10 strike, 19 MD (takes out remaining 10 MDC of Gladiator, and inflicts 9 MD to Cyber-Armor: 41 left)
R:Reload (Old clip still has 5 shots)
R: Long Burst, 14 strike, 20 MD
R: Long Burst, 6 strike, 45 MD (KILL)

Round 9:
R: Switches to Ion Pistol
M: Firebolt, 13 strike, 16 MD (Cyber-Armor at 25)
R: Long Burst, 10 strike, 40 MD
R: Aimed, 14 strike, 8 MD
R: Aimed, 9 strike, 12 MD (KILL)

Round 10:
M: Firebolt, 8 strike, 11 MD (Cyber-Armor at 14)
R: Simo (Aimed), 15 strike, 11 MD
R: Aimed, 16 strike, 6 MD
R: Aimed, 12 strike, 6 MD
R: Switches to (empty) rifle.

Round 11:
M: Firebolt, 14 strike, 15 MD (Destroys rest of armor, with 1 MD carrying over to Sir Robin, who loses 100 SDC but remains alive)
R: Loads rifle with the 5-shot clip he took out earlier
R: Short Burst, 6 strike, 20 MD
R: Aimed, Natural 20, 12 MD (KILL)
R: Drops empty rifle, summons Psi-Sword, Prays.

Round 12:
M: Firebolt, 19 strike (Dodge 16), 8 MD (Kills Sir Robin)

Overall:
10 Kills
50 Damage to Cyber-Armor.

Simulation 5:
Robin fails HF Check.

Round 1:
M: Firebolt, 11 strike, 10 MD (Robin has 60 left)
R: Long Burst, 13 strike, 35 MD
R: Aimed, 16 strike, 16 MD (KILL)

Round 2:
M: Firebolt, 17 strike (dodge 20), Miss.
R: Short Burst, 13 strike, 16 MD
R: Short Burst, 11 strike, 17 MD
R: Aimed, 17 strike, 15 MD

Round 3:
R: Switches to Psi-Sword
M: Firebolt, 15 strike (8 dodge), 12 MD (48 left)
R: Psi-Sword, 17 strike, 2 MD (KILL)
R: Switches to rifle (Empty)

Round 4:
M: Firebolt, 10 strike (17 dodge), Miss.
R: Reloads.
R: Long Burst, 16 strike, 50 MD (KILL)

Round 5:
M: Firebolt, 10 strike (dodge 14), Miss
R: Long Burst, 8 strike, 40 MD
R: Reloads
R: Aimed, 23 strike, 8 MD

Round 6:
R: Switches to Psi-Sword
M: Firebolt, 13 strike (dodge 14), Miss
R: Psi-Sword, 4 strike, Miss.
R: Psi-Sword, 20 strike, 5 MD (KILL)

Round 7:
M: Firebolt, Natural 20 (Dodge 18 ), 22 MD (26 left)
R: Switches to Rifle
R: Long Burst, 11 strike, 20 MD
R: Short Burst, 23 strike, 25 MD

Round 8:
M: Firebolt, 19 strike (dodge 8 ), 19 MD (7 left)
R: Aimed, 7 strike, 13 MD (Kill)
R: Reload (old clip still has 4 left)

Round 9:
R: Long Burst, 5 strike, 60 MD (KILL)
M: Simo (Firebolt), 16 strike, 14 MD (Gladiator soaks 7, 7 goes to Cyber Armor, 43 left)

Round 10:
R: Long Burst, 16 strike, 80 MD (KILL)
M: Simo (Firebolt), 23 strike, 12 MD (Kills Robin)

Overall:
7 Kills
7 damage to Cyber-Armor


Total Kills: 32
Average Kills Per Combat: 6.4

Some pretty interesting reading there - Sir Robin, that little trooper did you well .

Anyway just thought I'd point out this little discrepancy:

Situation 3: Round 5:
M: Firebolt, 7 strike (6 dodge), Miss.
R: Reloads.
R: Aimed, 23 strike, 10 MD
R: Aimed, 21 strike, 14 MD (KILL)

I'm not sure how little Robbie managed to get himself out of that firebolt, but I think he should be thanking the heavens

Giant2005 wrote:Some pretty interesting reading there - Sir Robin, that little trooper did you well .

Anyway just thought I'd point out this little discrepancy:

Situation 3: Round 5:
M: Firebolt, 7 strike (6 dodge), Miss.
R: Reloads.
R: Aimed, 23 strike, 10 MD
R: Aimed, 21 strike, 14 MD (KILL)

I'm not sure how little Robbie managed to get himself out of that firebolt, but I think he should be thanking the heavens

Good catch.
I looked back over my notes (I wrote all this in my notebook as I did it), I just switched the numbers when I posted them.
The strike was 6, the dodge was 7.


Edit:
I fixed it, along with getting rid of a bunch of s where I meant to have "8 )"s.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Vibro-blades require W.P. Knife (or sword, etc.), which is an "Ancient Weapon Proficiency".
For the purposed of the game, they're considered "Ancient Weapons".

That's the way we do it in our games, as well.

Interesting little test there to gauge the OCC's capabilities. Now with the Cyber Knight having one additional attack per melee, and since you are running the CS Grunt's C-12 as per the current understanding of it's intended mechanics (as opposed to how we all thought it worked at the time), how how is the Grunt supposed to have have a chance of doing even nearly as well? I just don't see it.

My solution to this would be to either arm him with an old school C-10 (full on Aim, Burst, Wild ROF back in the day, though only a 2D6MD base), or maybe a C-27. The old OCC write-up never expressly said they were saddled with a C-12, only an "energy rifle".

One thing worth mentioning is that Robbie has been given the skill "sniper" (and in one case it managed to make the difference between a hit and a miss), to be fair I think if Robbie gets it, Joey too should be allowed the skill.

Giant2005 wrote:One thing worth mentioning is that Robbie has been given the skill "sniper" (and in one case it managed to make the difference between a hit and a miss), to be fair I think if Robbie gets it, Joey too should be allowed the skill.

Grunts can't get espionage skills.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:One thing worth mentioning is that Robbie has been given the skill "sniper" (and in one case it managed to make the difference between a hit and a miss), to be fair I think if Robbie gets it, Joey too should be allowed the skill.

Grunts can't get espionage skills.

Ahh... good point (don't know how I missed that one).

I just did one test against your monster with a Grunt for my own curiosity's sake and previously I thought the CK would clean up but now I am pretty certain otherwise - one extra melee clip makes a massive difference.

Anyway this isn't my test so I'm not going to list the results of the one simulation I did do but I must commend you for your efforts KC. Just doing one simulation both took me a long time to complete and bored the hell out of me. Doing 5 had to be about as entertaining as watching paint dry while being stabbed in the testicles.

Giant2005 wrote:I just did one test against your monster with a Grunt for my own curiosity's sake and previously I thought the CK would clean up but now I am pretty certain otherwise - one extra melee clip makes a massive difference.

Anyway this isn't my test so I'm not going to list the results of the one simulation I did do but I must commend you for your efforts KC. Just doing one simulation both took me a long time to complete and bored the hell out of me. Doing 5 had to be about as entertaining as watching paint dry while being stabbed in the testicles.

Actually, it was kind of fun.

Especially Simulation #4.

Killer Cyborg wrote:M: Simo (Firebolt), 6 strike, 14 MD (armor absorbs 1 MD, rest goes to Cyber-Armor, dropping it to 37 MD)

Don't you use Gi-Joe rule?

mobuttu wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:M: Simo (Firebolt), 6 strike, 14 MD (armor absorbs 1 MD, rest goes to Cyber-Armor, dropping it to 37 MD)

Don't you use Gi-Joe rule?

First of all, we're using just the original Rifts book.
Secondly, no.

My only question is, if they hunt in PACKS of 13, shouldn't all 13 get a shot in each round?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:My only question is, if they hunt in PACKS of 13, shouldn't all 13 get a shot in each round?

We changed that, because the combat wouldn't have lasted long enough to measure anything.
So we have those creatures showing up one at a time, to give the human characters a chance to perform.

Killer Cyborg wrote:As for the CR-1, if you want to be overly picky, which it appears you do, then no plasma missiles; plasma is energy.

<Insert snarky comment about plasma here>

Should have sims by this weekend, but so far nothing is too out of sorts from the existing cyberknight sim (although sim 4 was highly anomalous, but the other sims demonstrate the anomaly nicely, which is why I wanted five trials). Mine will probably look similar.

Since I'm at work...

Did the stats on the cyber armor over lunch.... on average, it seems to give the CK 14 an extra 14 MD, but that's only because of sim 4, if you analyze all the sims, and look for statistical levels of difference,

The cyber armor acts like about 1 extra MDC point. (mis-spoke, later edit, it's statistically insignificant)

DocS wrote:Since I'm at work...

Did the stats on the cyber armor over lunch.... on average, it seems to give the CK 14 an extra 14 MD, but that's only because of sim 4, if you analyze all the sims, and look for statistical levels of difference,

Explain.

cyborg wrote:i think hes saying that the only reason the ck seems to have any cyberarmor at all if you add them up and divide by 5 is because on sim 4 every last bit of armor was used up, but in the other 4, only 20 points were used up with all of them added together.

you would have to assume that sim 4 is an oddity, and therefore does not make that much of an impact if any at all on the actual usefullness of the cyberarmor

Statistically, I suppose this is true. Or you could look at it as everytime the cyber-armour was damaged at all, it was life-saving.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

DocS wrote:Since I'm at work...

Did the stats on the cyber armor over lunch.... on average, it seems to give the CK 14 an extra 14 MD, but that's only because of sim 4, if you analyze all the sims, and look for statistical levels of difference,

Explain.

I took the values of the Cyber armor damage, 7,50,0,0,13,14 and did a Students T-test vs no armor at all (which would have values of 0,0,0,0,0) and found a P-value of 0.1, which means the cyber armor had no significant difference in damage absorption from no armor at all.

Is there another statistical test you would prefer? I've tried Standard deviations, standard error, and they're all coming in with a "that Cyber armor is... statistically useless!". My favorite is the standard deviation, where the cyber armor is

14+/- 20MD (arguably, the cyber armor could be worth -6 MD, but that's because such a large spread stymies such analyses, which is why I did the T-test)

DocS wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

DocS wrote:Since I'm at work...

Did the stats on the cyber armor over lunch.... on average, it seems to give the CK 14 an extra 14 MD, but that's only because of sim 4, if you analyze all the sims, and look for statistical levels of difference,

Explain.

I took the values of the Cyber armor damage, 7,50,0,0,13,14 and did a Students T-test vs no armor at all (which would have values of 0,0,0,0,0) and found a P-value of 0.1, which means the cyber armor had no significant difference in damage absorption from no armor at all.

Is there another statistical test you would prefer? I've tried Standard deviations, standard error, and they're all coming in with a "that Cyber armor is... statistically useless!". My favorite is the standard deviation, where the cyber armor is

14+/- 20MD (arguably, the cyber armor could be worth -6 MD, but that's because such a large spread stymies such analyses, which is why I did the T-test)

Heck, I didn't understand half of the terms you used, and I know next to nothing about statistical tests.

All I know is that in 3 out of 5 of my test combats, the Cyber-Armor bought at least one extra round of survival.

Other notes,

The Psi sword, never made any difference, the backup weapon for the cyberknight was his pistol. It was absolutely insignificant.

The +1 init, as Sir Robin usually delayed his action whenever he got initiative, the 1/20 times that the +1 mattered also didn't have any effect on things.

The +1d4x10 SDC mattered once, on Sim 4 (the very unusual one).

Now the extra attack mattered more often than not. That as significant. And once the Grunt is done, we will see how much so.

DocS wrote:Other notes,

The Psi sword, never made any difference, the backup weapon for the cyberknight was his pistol. It was absolutely insignificant.

I got some use out of it a couple times, when running low on ammo, but I agree there wasn't much impact, and a vibro-knife would have worked just as well for these tests.

When we're done with this set of tests though, I think we should roll up some weaker monsters and run more battles.
The psi-sword will likely come into play more when ammo's in short supply.

In any case, this goes pretty well with what I've always said; the psi-sword isn't meant to be the CK's main weapon.

The +1 init, as Sir Robin usually delayed his action whenever he got initiative, the 1/20 times that the +1 mattered also didn't have any effect on things.

Agreed.
Under different circumstances it might, but not in this battle.

The +1d4x10 SDC mattered once, on Sim 4 (the very unusual one).

Yup.

Now the extra attack mattered more often than not. That as significant. And once the Grunt is done, we will see how much so.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Why?

In the lengthy discription fight in the SoT book of the one guarding Erin Tarn, he killed 4 CS grunts adn only the one still alive was teh one in power armor.

Cyber Knights arn't cops. If anything there's more likely to not be any law in the area to take them back TO in the first place.

Well...a lot of it would depend on the nature of the CK.

When "what's his name" killed the CS grunts, it was only because that was the nature of that fight. He didn't kill them all, and wouldn't have killed them at all if he didn't need to...

One thing to realize is that while it's a brutal world...killing isn't the only answer...and CK's realize this...