Rail Guns....underperforming?

[Proseksword]

barring the "Boom Gun", most Rail Guns seem to deal rather underwhelming damage. 1D4x10 for a SAMAS Rail Gun? Even some of the heaviest conventional rail guns seem to deal a paltry 1D6x10, which is less than some Pulse Laser Rifles, and I don't even want to start in on that underperforming weapon, the C-200 "Dead Man's" (man, the name must refer to the user).

With little variation, Rail Guns in general seem to be overweight, underperforming support weapons which can claim as their only advantage a slight range advantage over lasers.

Why use them?

[glitterboy2098]

1.) it's fairly easy for a mage to learn a simple magic spell to become immune to energy attacks. spells that will block a mass of metal moving at high velocity are a bit higher level and harder to come by.

2.) Railguns and other pysical slug weapons are more likely knock down an opponent. a laser rifle might do more MDC, but a railgun will put a guy on his rear, which means he's out of the fight for a few action/melees as he comes back to his senses.

3.) if your using rules for doing SDC through armor, physical weapons will usually do more damage ot the wearer through the armor than energy weapons

4.) railguns will be able to shoot through some obstructions like walls, SDC cars, ect without loosing much effect. an energy weapon tends to be absorbed by such due to the melting/vaporization effects.

5.) railguns and bullets make lots of noise and are big and heavy, making thme more impressive/intimidating than a 'raygun'. never underestimate psychology.

[Mack]

Personally, I give all rail guns the ability to inflict double damage on strike roll of 18 or higher (after modifiers) and triple on a Nat 20.

But, yes, I agree with you. They're overweight, underpowered, and logistically limited when compared to the alternatives.

[TechnoGothic]

because when you get hit by one, you will most likely fall down lossing actions. Fall, then need to get up.
This may seem of little use, but if you slow the enemy infantry down it is useful.

Put on a Swat Vest, them let someone shoot you with a shotgun for effect. Your hitting the ground hard.
While Lasers do not have this knockback effect at all...

[Proseksword]

It always seemed to me like Rail Guns need optional rules to be able to fire larger bursts, so you could do an area spray attack with them. That at the very least would make them useful for pinning down enemy troops. Does anyone have any house rules for doing so?

[TechnoGothic]

It always seemed to me like Rail Guns need optional rules to be able to fire larger bursts, so you could do an area spray attack with them. That at the very least would make them useful for pinning down enemy troops. Does anyone have any house rules for doing so?

See SOUTH AMERICA TWO's GB-7 for a Gattling Rail Gun which fires bursts of 100 rounds per time trigger is pulled.

Remember Railguns fire their ammo extremely fast. 40 rounds to 100 rounds (depends on railgun used) in 1 Melee action (usually 3 seconds or so).

Imagine firing 33 rounds a Second in that GB-& case or so. Because if you have more than 5 attacks, it indicates it fires much faster than that actually. More like 50 rounds + a second or faster...

[teulisch]

the real reason, is power creep. the classic railgun was introduced in the main book, where pistols did 1d6, rifles did 3d6, and a particle beam did some serious damage. there have been a lot of advances since then, but the railgun is the one weapon which has not shown much improvement.

now the real advantage of railguns? Uranium rounds. sure they have a lot of down-sides, but they prevent supernatural creatures from regenerating. if your fighting a dragon, thats an important advantage.

[Proseksword]

Well, think of it this way, the farther away they are when you shoot them means you can start hurting before they can hurt you. A variation of the way of the gun beats the way of the fist.

Yes, I see this as somewhat of an advantage, but it's not like they are the ultimate ranged weapons. Mini-Missiles outrange them significantly and are prolific. Besides, it's not very heroic for the heroes in an RPG to go around sniping their enemies from out of range.

[Giant2005]

Railguns also tend to have a much higher range than energy weapons which alone, is enough reason to consider using one.

[Killer Cyborg]

the real reason, is power creep. the classic railgun was introduced in the main book, where pistols did 1d6, rifles did 3d6, and a particle beam did some serious damage. there have been a lot of advances since then, but the railgun is the one weapon which has not shown much improvement.

That's the main problem.

now the real advantage of railguns? Uranium rounds. sure they have a lot of down-sides, but they prevent supernatural creatures from regenerating. if your fighting a dragon, thats an important advantage.

Or silver rounds, or wood, etc.

[Vrykolas2k]

It always seemed to me like Rail Guns need optional rules to be able to fire larger bursts, so you could do an area spray attack with them. That at the very least would make them useful for pinning down enemy troops. Does anyone have any house rules for doing so?

Yes.
I roll 1d6 to see how many targets in the area of the ACTUAL target take the rail gun's damage. Seems more plausable to me.

[Killer Cyborg]

It always seemed to me like Rail Guns need optional rules to be able to fire larger bursts, so you could do an area spray attack with them. That at the very least would make them useful for pinning down enemy troops. Does anyone have any house rules for doing so?

A lot of the older railguns give damage for an individual round, in which case you can use the burst/spray rules for machineguns, from p.34 of Rifts.

[Talavar]

2 of the most powerful weapons in the game, and from early on, are rail guns though, the already excluded Boom gun, and the Shemarrian warrior's rail gun. I don't really understand why, when flechette-style rail guns are so much more powerful than the burst-style ones, more Rifts weapons designers don't make that kind instead.

[T-Willard]

2 of the most powerful weapons in the game, and from early on, are rail guns though, the already excluded Boom gun, and the Shemarrian warrior's rail gun. I don't really understand why, when flechette-style rail guns are so much more powerful than the burst-style ones, more Rifts weapons designers don't make that kind instead.

THIS bothers me more than I can say. Flechettes are virtually useless against hard targets.

A single round, if a high caliber (The boom gun is an 80mm rail gun, with an 8 star configuration of rails) would use an APDSFS, possibly even DU. Those are in use now, with a 4KM engagement range, with modern units nowdays.

Flechettes are useless against armor. They're too light, too lightly made, and would tinkle off armor leaving little tiny pinpricks in the armor where the flechettes struck.

However, and APDSFSDU would hit, punch right through the armor, or at least severely damage the vehicle.

I write it up to KS and crew were game designers, not privy to the heavy weapons available at the time, unaware of the M1A1's performance, where it made kills at distances up to 5KM regularly when facing the Republican Guard.

Flechettes sound good, they were used in Vietnam against troops by the Sheridan tank (Those rounds contained 30 (IIRC from classes) tungsten steel darts that looked like lawn darts) but they wouldn't penetrate a concrete or sandbag bunker.

So, to be honest, the underperformance of the railgun I tab up to KS and crew not having rail gun data at their fingertips, unaware of performance profiles of modern weaponry.

For example, the boom gun fires insanely slow for a chemical firearms, much less a rail gun. Rail gun tests by DARPA in 2005 showed that magnetically injected rounds hitting 2 rails eight feed long hit speeds in excess of 14 k/s.

So, you can either redo the entire rail gun thing, or just live with it.

[Incriptus]

the real reason, is power creep. the classic railgun was introduced in the main book, where pistols did 1d6, rifles did 3d6, and a particle beam did some serious damage. there have been a lot of advances since then, but the railgun is the one weapon which has not shown much improvement.

Just a remider that sourcebook 1 introduced the 1D6x10 pluse Rifle

[Killer Cyborg]

the real reason, is power creep. the classic railgun was introduced in the main book, where pistols did 1d6, rifles did 3d6, and a particle beam did some serious damage. there have been a lot of advances since then, but the railgun is the one weapon which has not shown much improvement.

Just a remider that sourcebook 1 introduced the 1D6x10 pluse Rifle

It did indeed.
Power Creep started early on.

The Wilk's 457 was broken from day one. Not only did it do more damage than the energy rifles in the main book, it held more energy per clip.

But I agree that power creep isn't the only problem with railguns.
They needed burst/spray capabilities, and a better variety of ammunition.

[T-Willard]

They needed burst/spray capabilities, and a better variety of ammunition.

Have faith, KC, I'll be addressing both points, including why the Boom Gun underperforms compared to modern weapons.

[TechnoGothic]

It always seemed to me like Rail Guns need optional rules to be able to fire larger bursts, so you could do an area spray attack with them. That at the very least would make them useful for pinning down enemy troops. Does anyone have any house rules for doing so?

See SOUTH AMERICA TWO's GB-7 for a Gattling Rail Gun which fires bursts of 100 rounds per time trigger is pulled.

Remember Railguns fire their ammo extremely fast. 40 rounds to 100 rounds (depends on railgun used) in 1 Melee action (usually 3 seconds or so).

Imagine firing 33 rounds a Second in that GB-& case or so. Because if you have more than 5 attacks, it indicates it fires much faster than that actually. More like 50 rounds + a second or faster...

ALSO...

The GB-7 Gattling Rail gun does 3d6x10 md, but only has the 4000 ft rang common to normal railguns. But it is firing 100 rounds per pull of the trigger.

Take the GB-7 Gattling Railgun. Mount it on other vehicles with larger ammo payloads. Allow Cyborgs to carry one around as a classic BFG. Though that might mean less ammo payload.
The BORG could carry it around like "Ol Painless" in Predator...
Great thing is the GB-7 Gattling railgun does not require Stablizer thusters or pylons at all...

[Killer Cyborg]

They needed burst/spray capabilities, and a better variety of ammunition.

Have faith, KC, I'll be addressing both points, including why the Boom Gun underperforms compared to modern weapons.

Actually, please don't.

[Shadyslug]

Okay...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a Rail gun a gun that can only fire a single round and a Gauss gun capable of firing full auto?

[T-Willard]

Okay...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a Rail gun a gun that can only fire a single round and a Gauss gun capable of firing full auto?

Once the magnetic rails are activated, any number of rounds can be fired down the rails, all roughly at the same speeds.

With how the coils have to step by step activate and deactivate, Guass Guns are better for single shots.

[Shadyslug]

Gotcha...just did some reading of my own...

It would seem that there would need to be some serious cooling methods for rapid firing of a rail gun...

[Proseksword]

Okay...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a Rail gun a gun that can only fire a single round and a Gauss gun capable of firing full auto?

The difference between Rail Guns and Gauss/Coil Guns is in the method of propelling the projectile (a pair of rails vs. a charged coil) rather than rate of fire.

[T-Willard]

Gotcha...just did some reading of my own...

It would seem that there would need to be some serious cooling methods for rapid firing of a rail gun...

Low friction material coating seems to be the best bet. Like second or third generation teflon coating that allows magnetic and electric fields to pass through it uninhibited.

Or maybe even magnetic "suspension" of the round, so that it doesn't actually touch the rails, and cannot transfer friction heat. In addition, probably superconductor doping of the rails and heat sinks would help too.

[batlchip]

Okay I'm gonna have to disagree with the statement about the most powerfull guns in the game being rail guns. In rifts Japan the AT-230 is said to be on of the most powerfull rifles on earth.Page 125. I also disagree on the mention that only borgs,bots,or augmented humans can use a rail gun.The K-5oo is only 36kg while the .50 M2 is 39.1kg.It took three men to carry a M2 .You only needed 2 for the K-500 one for the gun and one for the ammo.So you didn't have to be a bot,borg or augmented to fire a rial gun.

[Proseksword]

Okay, okay most common rail guns can only be used by Cyborgs etc. (we're talking about NG-101's and C-40Rs here, not the few smaller varieties).

[Dead Boy]

With little variation, Rail Guns in general seem to be overweight, underperforming support weapons which can claim as their only advantage a slight range advantage over lasers.

Why use them?

While rail guns do very little damage (usually 1D4 MD for a single shot) there is one good reason why you wouldn't want any more; RECOIL!!!. Because of the metal on metal mechanics of the bullet going down the barrel, there is the potential for some very nasty recoil on a single shot, and vastly more for a 40 round burst.

Say for instance the round fired from the Coalition's C-40R was a 9.8mm ball of tungsten weighing 9.4 grams (or about 145 grains if you prefer). Now say that each of these rounds had a muzzle velocity of Mach 10 (that's slower that modern day experimental mach 16 rounds, by the way). Given the 92 pound heft of the C-40R each shot would have 9 foot-pounds of recoil with a velocity of 2 feet per second. That's more than a bit of a kick, but it is manageable... that is until you remember that was just for the single 1D4MD shot. Spit out 40 shots in a split second and now we're talking arm-rending recoil!!! That's why they have to be fired on tri-pods or with the steel reinforced arms of a 'borg or power armor. And you want them to be MORE powerful per shot?!? *ouch!*

As to why you would ever want to use a rail gun, I think the others have said it all; range, Impervious to Energy spell, anti-vamp ammo, knock down.

Okay...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a Rail gun a gun that can only fire a single round and a Gauss gun capable of firing full auto?

Actually they have different firing systems altogether.

Rail Guns use "rails" (minimum of 2). To fire the gun a current is shot down the rails that creates an EM pull in the direction of the current. The round (often in a armature made of a magnetically attractive metal) is pulled forward by this and propelled to speeds of around 12,000 mph. If you have a Gatling-Gun multi-barreled firing configuration, it wouldn't be hard at all to make a rail gun with a high cyclic rate of fire.

Gauss Guns dispense with the rail and instead use an electro-magnetic field, doing away with the metal on metal contact of the rail gun. The EM field repulses the projectile down the barrel to speed. In principle, you're right in thinking that a gauss gun would be better suited for a full auto weapon along the lines of a machine-gun, especially in a single-barrel configuration like the one used for the C-40R and TX-500. That's why I generally define rifts "rail guns" as gauss guns in terms of how they operate, doing away with a lot of nit-picky problems.

the real reason, is power creep.

Just a remider that sourcebook 1 introduced the 1D6x10 pluse Rifle

It did indeed.
Power Creep started early on.

In terms of strictly the original Rifts main book (strictly by 1990 rules), there was a weapon so terrifying it made the 457 and Boom Gun look tame in comparison. Back then there was the Bionic Forearm Particle Beam. Not only did it do 6D6+6 MD as it still does today, it also had the rate of fire of "Aim, Burst, Wild". Load up on some extra e-clip ports and you would have the ammo capacity of a 'machine gun'. Under the the bursting rules back then, with a full burst a machine-gun could do X20 damage. Put it all together and you had a (6D6+6)x20 MD mega burst!!! That's a mean average of 540 MD!!! Better not miss! It was more practical using short and long bursts for just X2 and X5, which was still more than enough to do the job. And then the other books out and steadily nerfed the hell out of that super-gun.

Ahhh... Good times.

[Rallan]

because when you get hit by one, you will most likely fall down lossing actions. Fall, then need to get up.
This may seem of little use, but if you slow the enemy infantry down it is useful.

Put on a Swat Vest, them let someone shoot you with a shotgun for effect. Your hitting the ground hard.
While Lasers do not have this knockback effect at all...

Um, no you're not. If shotguns had enough impact to knock a guy flat on his ass, they'd also have enough recoil to knock the firer flat on his ass too. The only reason people fall over after they've been hit by guns is because they hurt rather a lot.

And since the stats for most portable railguns in Rifts say that you can use 'em as long as you've got a high enough PS (presumably to handle the recoil and make sure you stay vaguely on target instead of spraying slugs everywhere), we can safely assume that the railguns used by infantry squads in the game don't have enough kick to knock you flat on your ass either.

[Rallan]

the real reason, is power creep. the classic railgun was introduced in the main book, where pistols did 1d6, rifles did 3d6, and a particle beam did some serious damage. there have been a lot of advances since then, but the railgun is the one weapon which has not shown much improvement.

Even without power creep they're underpowered. In the main book railguns were talked up as an infantry support weapon that was capable of doing for the Rifts Earth battlefield what machineguns did for the 20th century battlefield.

But what do you get? Dinky little things where a full burst will do a maximum of 40MDC, which isn't enough to put anyone down and keep 'em down even if you focus the burst on one target in medium body armor. Hell, you'll need an average of four bursts just to put down a single Dead Boy in oldschool CS body armor.

That's not a fearsome squad-level weapon. That's a "me and the guy helping me fire this would've been just as effective if we'd carried a laser rifle each instead of lugging 150lbs of gear" weapon.

[Preacher]

I see a lot of people talking about knockdown from rail guns. Are there official rules for this or do you just houserule it? The only knockdown rules I can think of that arn't directly referenced in a specific weapon entry are the knockdown by damage rules.

Our group uses the Optional Tables from Rifts Game Master Guide Pg.35 which are reprinted from I forget where.

[Giant2005]

If you think Rail Guns are underpowered (imo they aren't underpowered but they still aren't worth the hassle of their ammunition) then house rule them - make them as strong as you feel they should be.
Or you could simply use stronger Rail Guns that are already in canon. The Techno-Wizard rail gun that Mummu the Maker uses in Pantheons of the megaverse would be a good start. It is powerful and doesn't run on that annoying ammunition - I'm sure Stormspire will have a few waiting to be sold.

[Killer Cyborg]

the real reason, is power creep.

Just a remider that sourcebook 1 introduced the 1D6x10 pluse Rifle

It did indeed.
Power Creep started early on.

In terms of strictly the original Rifts main book (strictly by 1990 rules), there was a weapon so terrifying it made the 457 and Boom Gun look tame in comparison. Back then there was the Bionic Forearm Particle Beam. Not only did it do 6D6+6 MD as it still does today, it also had the rate of fire of "Aim, Burst, Wild". Load up on some extra e-clip ports and you would have the ammo capacity of a 'machine gun'. Under the the bursting rules back then, with a full burst a machine-gun could do X20 damage. Put it all together and you had a (6D6+6)x20 MD mega burst!!! That's a mean average of 540 MD!!! Better not miss! It was more practical using short and long bursts for just X2 and X5, which was still more than enough to do the job. And then the other books out and steadily nerfed the hell out of that super-gun.

Ahhh... Good times.

They never officially state what constitutes a "Machinegun" for the burst/spray rules, so I wouldn't allow it.
But yes, it could apparently do bursts and sprays as per semi-automatic weapons and SMGs, which made it incredibly deadly.
And I don't know if you could have more than one port per weapon.
So I'd put it at 2 clips (1 for the gun, one for the port), but with each clip counting seperately.
The most broken thing about it is that the burst/spray rules didn't take ammo capacity into account, so a burst of 20% of the magazine with a 10 shot clip would mean x2 damage for a 2-shot burst.
Which would give the Forearm Particle Beam 5 short burst per clip, 10 total, at 12d6+12 MD per double burst.
At an average of 54 MD per burst, with 20 bursts, this could crank out 540 MD total damage before running out of ammo.

The Wilk's 457 does 1d6x10 MD per 3-shot pulse, but has a 40 shot clip, so it could get off 13 pulses at an average damage of 35 MD each, and one normal shot at 3d6+2 MD, average of 13 MD, for a total average damage of 468 MD per clip, with only one clip before running out of ammo.

So the Forearm Particle Beam is clearly a superior weapon, if you buy the extra E-clip port, but let's look at cost:
-Wilk's 457 costs CR 40,000. Add in CR 8,000 for a Long Clip, and you're looking at CR 48,000 total.
-The Forearm Particle Beamer costs CR 60,000.
Each E-Clip costs CR 5,000, for another CR 10,000 total.
The E-Clip Port costs another CR 4,000.
The Bionic arm itself costs CR 45,000.
You're looking at a total cost of CR 119,000

While the Forearm Particle Beam (with the extra clip combo) is clearly a more powerful weapon, it also costs more than twice as much, and is only usable by borgs.
This helps balance it out quite a bit.

[TechnoGothic]

I see a lot of people talking about knockdown from rail guns. Are there official rules for this or do you just houserule it? The only knockdown rules I can think of that arn't directly referenced in a specific weapon entry are the knockdown by damage rules.

MY old Sourcebook One stats knockdown/knockback:

More Damage than a PCs PE attribute or 20 MDC from a Railgun, missile blast, etc...Where the character can be knocked back Damage over PE/or 20 MD equal to feet for every 5 MD over...

Get hot for 30 MD from a rail gun, get knocked back 2 feet on you butt...
Large Cyborgs/PAs (7 ft & Taller) ignore this.
So this seems(ed) useful only against Infrantry Soldiers and Mages...

[Proseksword]

because when you get hit by one, you will most likely fall down lossing actions. Fall, then need to get up.
This may seem of little use, but if you slow the enemy infantry down it is useful.

Put on a Swat Vest, them let someone shoot you with a shotgun for effect. Your hitting the ground hard.
While Lasers do not have this knockback effect at all...

Um, no you're not. If shotguns had enough impact to knock a guy flat on his ass, they'd also have enough recoil to knock the firer flat on his ass too. The only reason people fall over after they've been hit by guns is because they hurt rather a lot....

Agreed. Bullets don't push, they penetrate. I remember reading a whole FBI study on the mythos of the .45's "stopping power" and how there was no real truth to behind it, since a larger round is not more likely to knock the target over. Now, in the case of Mega-Damage armor, I'm not quite sure how the physics would work, since the round would be caught by the armor, which may cause it to push the target, but I don't think the push would likely be any stronger than the recoil, so a Rail Gun would maybe knock down a guy in standard body armor, but not Power Armor.

[Sureshot]

Even without power creep they're underpowered. In the main book railguns were talked up as an infantry support weapon that was capable of doing for the Rifts Earth battlefield what machineguns did for the 20th century battlefield.

But what do you get? Dinky little things where a full burst will do a maximum of 40MDC, which isn't enough to put anyone down and keep 'em down even if you focus the burst on one target in medium body armor. Hell, you'll need an average of four bursts just to put down a single Dead Boy in oldschool CS body armor.

That's not a fearsome squad-level weapon. That's a "me and the guy helping me fire this would've been just as effective if we'd carried a laser rifle each instead of lugging 150lbs of gear" weapon.

Agreed and seconded. The Ultimax gun is a very good example of this.

[DocS]

The railguns are amazingly ineffective.... The SAMAS rail gun, 1d4x10...


While the energy rifles can burst up to base damage x10, A SAMAS pilot just about triples his firepower if instead of his SAMAS rail gun, he instead uses a C-14 and bursts *that* instead of a railgun.

The damage values in Rifts have always been from the "Pulled it out of my butt" with little or no rhyme or reason.

[Killer Cyborg]

The railguns are amazingly ineffective.... The SAMAS rail gun, 1d4x10...


While the energy rifles can burst up to base damage x10, A SAMAS pilot just about triples his firepower if instead of his SAMAS rail gun, he instead uses a C-14 and bursts *that* instead of a railgun.

Not any more; the C-14 got nerfed quite a long time ago.
In CWC, IIRC.

[Rallan]

because when you get hit by one, you will most likely fall down lossing actions. Fall, then need to get up.
This may seem of little use, but if you slow the enemy infantry down it is useful.

Put on a Swat Vest, them let someone shoot you with a shotgun for effect. Your hitting the ground hard.
While Lasers do not have this knockback effect at all...

Um, no you're not. If shotguns had enough impact to knock a guy flat on his ass, they'd also have enough recoil to knock the firer flat on his ass too. The only reason people fall over after they've been hit by guns is because they hurt rather a lot....

Agreed. Bullets don't push, they penetrate. I remember reading a whole FBI study on the mythos of the .45's "stopping power" and how there was no real truth to behind it, since a larger round is not more likely to knock the target over. Now, in the case of Mega-Damage armor, I'm not quite sure how the physics would work, since the round would be caught by the armor, which may cause it to push the target, but I don't think the push would likely be any stronger than the recoil, so a Rail Gun would maybe knock down a guy in standard body armor, but not Power Armor.

The physics is pretty simple. If they're not being hurled out of the gun with enough force to knock the user flat on his ass, they're not gonna be ramming into anyone with enough force to knock the target flat on his ass either.

Now since railguns are obviously firing their slugs at far higher velocities than any conventional firearm, and the one in Rifts could (if you wanted 'em to) have ridiculously insane rates of fire, a long enough burst would probably see the user losing control and spraying everywhere at random like an unsuspecting guy using a high-pressure firehose without help, and the barrage of rounds would probably be enough to bowl people over and force 'em back. But that's probably not an effect you're gonna get with timed 40 round bursts that are over and done with in a fraction of a second.

[teulisch]

on the railgun vs MG comparison:

from the GMG, p. 40, lt MG is 40 to 140 damage on long burst (3 actions), and hvy mg is is 40 to 180 on long bursts (3 actions)

for one-action bursts, these guns do 1d6x10 or 1d8x10. whereas a heavy rifle caliber may do 1d6x10+3 (more than a lt mg short burst). so here is our 1d4x10 particle beam vs 6d6 railgun burst comparison.

so perhaps the comparison issue, is that while railguns compare to 'light' machineguns, we dont have anything for the 'heavy' category, and lack the long burst option.

i think part of all this, is that the definition of 'infantry' armor tends to be under 80, where 2 good hits can kill (because a 1-shot kill is not much fun for RPG games). we see a lot of stuff that defies what we expect, because it is a game, and it needs to be fun to play more than it needs realism.

that said.... in an SDC setting, how much sdc+hp+armor does the average gun getting in front of MG bursts have? by the RUE sdc, someone who rolls well and has a decent PE could take a 40-sd hit and keep going. so the comparison isnt too bad there.

[glitterboy2098]

teulisch, check the damage type on those MG's. i think your reading SDC weapons stats.


in regards to 'sstopping power', it's not the knockback/recoil so much as the effects on the body. a .45, being a bigger round with more power behind it, will inflict larger tissue damage and internal trauma than the lighter 9mm. and both will do far more that a 5.56mm.


the rifts railguns though would be able to knock someone down just fro ma hit. a railgun does damge the same way as a bullet, through kinetic impact. the higher the velocity, the more the damage.

the C-40 on single shot does 1D4 MD. thats 1D4x100 SDC. the 120mm Sabot of an M1 does 2D4x100 SDC according to palladium. so a handheld kinetic weapon firing a slug about the size of a finger is doing half as much kinetic damage as a friggin tank cannon. a tank cannon that causes the 70 ton! tank to rock back on its treads several inches and would cause a human being to go 'splat' into a pile of goo when hit.

the recoil absorbers on the C-40 have to be absurdly powerful, but the round still has that KE. so when it hits, it will hit at velocities that will send a man flying. if it hits a soft target like a unarmored man, it'll turn them to goo. if it hits a hard target like body armor, the man will be knocked down. probably very bruised too.

[DocS]

The most broken thing about it is that the burst/spray rules didn't take ammo capacity into account, so a burst of 20% of the magazine with a 10 shot clip would mean x2 damage for a 2-shot burst.
Which would give the Forearm Particle Beam 5 short burst per clip, 10 total, at 12d6+12 MD per double burst.
At an average of 54 MD per burst, with 20 bursts, this could crank out 540 MD total damage before running out of ammo.

While the Forearm Particle Beam (with the extra clip combo) is clearly a more powerful weapon, it also costs more than twice as much, and is only usable by borgs.
This helps balance it out quite a bit.

Particle beam... usable by borgs... and bots.... meanwhile the bots also have infinite ammo for it...

Reason #472 why I think robots are unbalanced, fun, but unbalanced.

[TechnoGothic]

teulisch, check the damage type on those MG's. i think your reading SDC weapons stats.


in regards to 'sstopping power', it's not the knockback/recoil so much as the effects on the body. a .45, being a bigger round with more power behind it, will inflict larger tissue damage and internal trauma than the lighter 9mm. and both will do far more that a 5.56mm.


the rifts railguns though would be able to knock someone down just fro ma hit. a railgun does damge the same way as a bullet, through kinetic impact. the higher the velocity, the more the damage.

the C-40 on single shot does 1D4 MD. thats 1D4x100 SDC. the 120mm Sabot of an M1 does 2D4x100 SDC according to palladium. so a handheld kinetic weapon firing a slug about the size of a finger is doing half as much kinetic damage as a friggin tank cannon. a tank cannon that causes the 70 ton! tank to rock back on its treads several inches and would cause a human being to go 'splat' into a pile of goo when hit.

the recoil absorbers on the C-40 have to be absurdly powerful, but the round still has that KE. so when it hits, it will hit at velocities that will send a man flying. if it hits a soft target like a unarmored man, it'll turn them to goo. if it hits a hard target like body armor, the man will be knocked down. probably very bruised too.

Agreed. MD "Bullets" that are basiclly Anti-Tank rounds will knock you down hard if your in MDC Body Armor. That Armor might be able to soak enough of the damage capacity to keep you from splating but enough would not forcing you off your feet.

Also, remember, Most Railgun rounds are Heavy. Depleted Uranium.
Also most railgun rounds are basiclly NAILS in size and shape more or less. That would have a much greater impact than a small buckshot or whatever...

[Proseksword]

That doesn't negate the way physics work. Any Rail Gun that can be fired by an individual wouldn't knock down an individual. Now, if it take's a 'Borg or SAMAS to fire it, then I can see it knocking down a normal man-sized target in body armor....

[Mack]

That doesn't negate the way physics work. Any Rail Gun that can be fired by an individual wouldn't knock down an individual.

Not necessarily. If the shooter is "leaning into" the rifle, or bracing for it, and the recipent is not, the recipient could easily be knocked down while the shooter isn't. The shooter can plan for the impact, the recipient can not.

[Rockwolf66]

Agreed. Bullets don't push, they penetrate. I remember reading a whole FBI study on the mythos of the .45's "stopping power" and how there was no real truth to behind it, since a larger round is not more likely to knock the target over. Now, in the case of Mega-Damage armor, I'm not quite sure how the physics would work, since the round would be caught by the armor, which may cause it to push the target, but I don't think the push would likely be any stronger than the recoil, so a Rail Gun would maybe knock down a guy in standard body armor, but not Power Armor.

Well there is the 1904 US Army Board test where they compared the old .45 Colt versus the 9mm Parabellum. In the live animal tests(as they still use cavalry) the .45 took on average six rounds to kill Livestock. the 9mm would often fire off 12 rounds without killing the test animal. As far as Human cadavers go the .45 round produced more movement in hanging bodies. According to the 1990 FBI ammunition tests the .45 ACP firing a 230 grain FMJ round was rated at 100% while the best 9X19mm round only scored 95.5%.

As far as the .45ACP vs. the 5.56X45mm NATO.

A .45 ACP Winchester Silvertip Hollowpoint
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/45%20ACP%20WW%20STHP.jpg

a US Military M855 5.56X45mm NATO
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/M855.jpg

Note: Rifles beat Handguns in damage in almost all cases.

Both Wound ballistic tracts were found on http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

OK back to Railguns and why a one shot 1D4X100SDC equivalent weapon does or does not suck. Then again in 1st edition Rifts that was equivalent to a 40mm Grenade going off in ones face and enough to split a car in two. If anyone here thinks that they can remain standing after getting hit with a 40mm grenade, please raise their right hand.

[Jefffar]

No shoulder fired weapon that produces recoil is going to be capable of knocking down the target without knocking down the shooter. The physics just don't make sense.

Of course if the target is already off balance, the impact of a high velocity round (or even a low velocity round) might be enough to finish the job.

Anyway, in my games I've upped the railgun per round damage to the 2D6 to 4D6 range and use the existing full auto rules (which means that the right railgun can do 4D6x10 with a burst). I also like the tripple damage on the natural 20 rule and use that too.

Rail guns now petrify the players.

[TechnoGothic]

That doesn't negate the way physics work. Any Rail Gun that can be fired by an individual wouldn't knock down an individual. Now, if it take's a 'Borg or SAMAS to fire it, then I can see it knocking down a normal man-sized target in body armor....

Yes generally Railguns require you being a BORG, Power Armor, Robot Vehicle, Titan or Mega Juicer to use.

The BIG draw for Railguns is that they are inexpensive to make.

The Downsize for railguns is that they a Large (size), Weight (heavy), kick, loudness. Few Humans other than Bionic Augmentation can operate a rail gun as a handgun. Railguns are most commonly used with Power Armor where they are perhaps their most formidable, mounted on Vehicles and Giant robots, or as Heavy Tripod mounted Machineguns.

My group never allowed MD Energy Weapons to fire burts. We see those rules only for SDC Machineguns. So in our Games, Railguns were very Powerful indeed. MD Pulse Laser Rifles are even rare in our games.
In our games a Weapon's discription must state its MD Burt/Pulse damage or it cannot Burst/Pulse fire...
This alone keeps our game more in theme to what we read about in the game... (RMB)

[Rallan]

I'm impressed. We've actually managed to go four pages without someone trying to argue that rail guns don't create recoil

[Dead Boy]

I'm impressed. We've actually managed to go four pages without someone trying to argue that rail guns don't create recoil

That would be just plain silly. Of course rail guns have recoil because of their metal on metal mechanics. Gauss Guns on the other hand might not. Frankly I'm not sure either way on them. I've read about how some claim to be able to modulate the EM harmonic frequency (or some techno-babble to that effect) to negate their recoil.

[Rallan]

I'm impressed. We've actually managed to go four pages without someone trying to argue that rail guns don't create recoil

That would be just plain silly. Of course rail guns have recoil because of their metal on metal mechanics. Gauss Guns on the other hand might not. Frankly I'm not sure either way on them. I've read about how some claim to be able to modulate the EM harmonic frequency (or some techno-babble to that effect) to negate their recoil.

Nope, they still got every bit as much recoil as a rail gun accelerating the same projectile to the same velocity would have. THe metal on metal mechanics" of rail guns have absolutely nada to do with the recoil they generate, because the projectile isn't actually fixed to anything and the rails never physically push against it. All the thrust and all the recoil come from the magnetic fields involved.