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Lets say a fireball hits plate armour that has only 30 SDC left and for whatever reason, only does damage to the armour, and does 31 damage to it. Now, the question is, how messed up is it. Un-repairable, it says in the book, or worthless. However, as metal, it can always be re-smelted and re-forged, or patched, albeit thinner.

So, what do you guys think occurs?

Personally, I see it as the armour is now molten metal since it was destroyed by a fireball. The metal of course will harden in a minute or two, but for the person who was wearing it, he now is being burned alive by his own armour that is molten.

If it was a weapon, I would say that the armour has been destroyed and is now in a thousand little pieces. Still worth something as scrap metal, and may be able to become a new set of armour, but it's useful-ness is for the most part, long gone.

If it was a lightning bolt, then it would be molten metal as well, (lightning bolts are around the range of 50,000 degrees F I believe).

So, what do you guys say occurs when armour or a sword is reduced to 0 SDC/MDC?

Well, you followed the rules for rolling to hit and dealing damage so far - why are you diverging from the rules now in what it does? The armour is gone - that's all that happens by the rules.

If your going to start thinking about this, start right from the too hit roll - or even what the attacker would do given his experience of the situation. But here it seems your thinking about it only once the players PC is hit - that's pretty metagamey.

Noon wrote:Well, you followed the rules for rolling to hit and dealing damage so far - why are you diverging from the rules now in what it does? The armour is gone - that's all that happens by the rules.

If your going to start thinking about this, start right from the too hit roll - or even what the attacker would do given his experience of the situation. But here it seems your thinking about it only once the players PC is hit - that's pretty metagamey.

Umm.. no. I am simply wondering. I mean, come on. Cast iron is brittle and when you hit it with a sledgehammer, you are liable to get hit in the gace with very fast moving shards, and will get hit in the shins.

Granted, iron used in swords and armour isn't cast iron, but the principle stands. If the armour or whatever is reduced to 0, how do all you other GM's handle it. it's not like the armour suddenly disappears, never to come back.

(and what the hell are you talking about metagamey and ****? you really need to re-read what I typed before you post on something that you dont understand. It's okay if you dont, just try not to be so obvious.

And, the rules don't say anything about the armour being "gone" once it is at 0 SDC. Nowhere. Just that its rendered useless and worthless. Please re-check your facts.

Besides which, um, yea, players get hit pretty often in my games. Dont know what you are playing but hitting occurs. So why shouldn't I think about that as a GM? Unless you are saying that I as a GM, should never allow my NPC's and villians or whatever never hit my players, because to allow such is, "metagamey". whatever the hell that means.)

Megadamage by it's nature and it's in game execution has never abided by the laws of physics, though many have made vain attempts to make it feel as though it did.
Megadamage is large, powerful, and theatrical, not realistic. It makes Rifts what it is.
Magic and Psionics do not really follow the rules of physics either. A wizard is simply someone who is very good at yelling "Objection!" to the laws of physics.

So...
The armor literally disappears, the matter is obliterated from existence.

I think he's talking about SDC armor, not MDC armor.

I'd say that, reducing metal armor or weapons to 0 SDC would mean they are destroyed. They still exist, certainly, in that the material is still present, but the damage is so severe that they are rendered useless for their original application. A sword is shattered into useless shards, plate armor is torn asunder.

You could certainly rebuilt a sword or armor from the remains, but it would effectively be building a new sword or new suit of armor from almost-raw materials.

Qev wrote:I think he's talking about SDC armor, not MDC armor.

I'd say that, reducing metal armor or weapons to 0 SDC would mean they are destroyed. They still exist, certainly, in that the material is still present, but the damage is so severe that they are rendered useless for their original application. A sword is shattered into useless shards, plate armor is torn asunder.

You could certainly rebuilt a sword or armor from the remains, but it would effectively be building a new sword or new suit of armor from almost-raw materials.

Thanks, and yea, was talking about SDC.

But, what happens when a fireball hits the armour destroying it, or a lightning bolt?

As GM, I would just say, "Your armor is destroyed" and move on.
Howeverm if the player really wants to get over-realisitic (its a GAME afterall, and combat can be slow enough):
Damage done to armor exceeds SDC (30 - 31 is -1, BTW, not 0) will depend on the type of force excerted.
Swords/Blades: "Too much of the armor has been cleaved away, chunks have flown off, that repair is more expensive then buying a new piece."
Hammers/Blunt objects: Same as above, substitute "broken off" for "cleaved away".
Piercing damage: Same as Hammers, substitue "punched through" for "broken off".
Fire/Lightning: "Too much armor has been vaporized to make repair more expensive then buying a new piece".

Question: When players make called shots to the head of a enemy who is wareing armor with 20 mdc helmet. I assume that once 20 damage is done to the helmet that the troop would die. Is this correct?
Answer: If a guy has a helm with 20 MDC and suffers from a called shot to the head, then if he is an SDC "squishy" type (like most who wear body armor are) then he will have his head blown off when the damage reaches 21. If it's equal to the MDC of the body part (or Main Body for that matter) then the armor is depleted, but the guy inside is still fine, though completely vulnerable.

http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?t=79257

Zylo wrote:When someone takes a massive strike from a battle axe that deals exactly the SDC of their armor, it falls to pieces and the character feels nothing. What?!?!

Oh, he feels it.
He just doesn't take any damage from the hit.

another possibility is that the fireball hit it hard and the steel not only melted into slaag but also flew off from the explosive impact sending white hot melted metal shrapanel

The ineffible GM wrote:Megadamage by it's nature and it's in game execution has never abided by the laws of physics, though many have made vain attempts to make it feel as though it did.
Megadamage is large, powerful, and theatrical, not realistic. It makes Rifts what it is.
Magic and Psionics do not really follow the rules of physics either. A wizard is simply someone who is very good at yelling "Objection!" to the laws of physics.

So...
The armor literally disappears, the matter is obliterated from existence.

No where does he say he is talking about an M.D.C. environment.

asajosh wrote:Damage done to armor exceeds SDC (30 - 31 is -1, BTW, not 0) will depend on the type of force excerted.

Never said that 30-31=0 BTW

The ineffible GM wrote:Megadamage by it's nature and it's in game execution has never abided by the laws of physics, though many have made vain attempts to make it feel as though it did.
Megadamage is large, powerful, and theatrical, not realistic. It makes Rifts what it is.
Magic and Psionics do not really follow the rules of physics either. A wizard is simply someone who is very good at yelling "Objection!" to the laws of physics.

So...
The armor literally disappears, the matter is obliterated from existence.

Well, I am talking about SDC, but MD works as well.

But armour disappearing? Does it SAY that in any of the books? I think not. If the armour is reduced to 0, the books say that the armour is worthless/no longer provided protection and is beyond repair.

What is everyone's opinion of "is beyond repair."

Because if you talk to a blacksmith, he would say that no armour is beyond repair, if you will allow that turning the scraps into a new armour is a loose term for repair.

Cloth armour is going to be cheaper to self-repair, even if the SDC is brought to 0, than buying new or have someone else repair.

Padded/Quilt is also going to be cheaper to self-repair than buying brand new or paying someone else to repair.

Everything else, it's going to be cheaper to buy brand new than to try and repair, either self-repair or paying someone to repair, when your current armour has a 0 SDC.

But, as far as disappearing? What type of BS games are you running? Things don't just unmagically disappear when they are destroyed, whether its a blade of grass, armour, weapons, buildings, or a damn planet. There is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS something left when it's destroyed, even if it's atomized, there are still atoms left over. Not even in game terms. If thats your house rule, good for you, but its completely useless in this type of thread.

verdilak wrote:

The ineffible GM wrote:Megadamage by it's nature and it's in game execution has never abided by the laws of physics, though many have made vain attempts to make it feel as though it did.
Megadamage is large, powerful, and theatrical, not realistic. It makes Rifts what it is.
Magic and Psionics do not really follow the rules of physics either. A wizard is simply someone who is very good at yelling "Objection!" to the laws of physics.

So...
The armor literally disappears, the matter is obliterated from existence.

Well, I am talking about SDC, but MD works as well.

But armour disappearing? Does it SAY that in any of the books? I think not. If the armour is reduced to 0, the books say that the armour is worthless/no longer provided protection and is beyond repair.

What is everyone's opinion of "is beyond repair."

Because if you talk to a blacksmith, he would say that no armour is beyond repair, if you will allow that turning the scraps into a new armour is a loose term for repair.

Cloth armour is going to be cheaper to self-repair, even if the SDC is brought to 0, than buying new or have someone else repair.

Padded/Quilt is also going to be cheaper to self-repair than buying brand new or paying someone else to repair.

Everything else, it's going to be cheaper to buy brand new than to try and repair, either self-repair or paying someone to repair, when your current armour has a 0 SDC.

But, as far as disappearing? What type of BS games are you running? Things don't just unmagically disappear when they are destroyed, whether its a blade of grass, armour, weapons, buildings, or a damn planet. There is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS something left when it's destroyed, even if it's atomized, there are still atoms left over. Not even in game terms. If thats your house rule, good for you, but its completely useless in this type of thread.

Verdilak:
#1 = Grow a sense of humour. There's no place on the internet for people without one.

#2 = BS game? Considering the type of completely unrealistic BS that is part and parcel of most role-playing games (seriously, how realistic is the idea of waving your hands and chanting being able to create a fireball that is imbued with enough energy to not only travel at high velocity towards a mantally directed target but also to contain enough energy to continue burning through the time needed and through the windresistance it will encounter?) I don't think that the spontaneous non-existence of matter is too far off from the spontaneous creation of energy. The nature of the game you are playing ignores tenants of scientific reality, I simply provided one more.
Can we agree that if any of the laws of physics are being broken, then it's possible for all of them to be broken? Is that reasonable?

#3 = To provide a more serious reply to your question, as apparently this is one of "those kind"s of threads, I think it completely reasonable to assume that 'damaged beyond repair' would be best translated as "Damaged to the point at which it would cost less to purchase a new suit of armour of equal value to the original than it would cost to have the original repaired". Cloth armor, if shredded and torn would be better served by new cloth than trying to create enough stitches and patches to make it servicable once more. Plate or chain could be collected for scrap. It is 'worthless' as armor, but would be worth something as scrap. If you are melting down the scrap and having it reforged, then you might as well be purchasing new armor anyway. It might cost a little less since you're providing some of the raw material, but there is still the cost of coal, additional metal, leather straps, not to mention the cost of the manual labour involved. When in doubt you can often use money as a common denominator.

The ineffible GM wrote:
Verdilak:
#1 = Grow a sense of humour. There's no place on the internet for people without one.

Sure there is. But saying that armour disappears isnt funny

#2 = BS game? Considering the type of completely unrealistic BS that is part and parcel of most role-playing games (seriously, how realistic is the idea of waving your hands and chanting being able to create a fireball that is imbued with enough energy to not only travel at high velocity towards a mantally directed target but also to contain enough energy to continue burning through the time needed and through the windresistance it will encounter?) I don't think that the spontaneous non-existence of matter is too far off from the spontaneous creation of energy. The nature of the game you are playing ignores tenants of scientific reality, I simply provided one more.
Can we agree that if any of the laws of physics are being broken, then it's possible for all of them to be broken? Is that reasonable?

If we are going to agree that if some laws are broken, they al should, then how ridiculous are you wanting to be?

The grass is green, but it tastes like a freshly picked strawberry, with the nutritional aspect of a McDonalds Happy Meal.

Sunlight feels like a fresh winter snow upon your back, without heat, just coldness.

Water tastes like melted chocolate ice cream and burns everyone like acid at the touch.

So again, WHY do we have to throw all laws of physics out the door because of magic? If you do, then what I just said is no stranger or unrealistic than armour disappearing in a "PooF".

#3 = To provide a more serious reply to your question, as apparently this is one of "those kind"s of threads, I think it completely reasonable to assume that 'damaged beyond repair' would be best translated as "Damaged to the point at which it would cost less to purchase a new suit of armour of equal value to the original than it would cost to have the original repaired". Cloth armor, if shredded and torn would be better served by new cloth than trying to create enough stitches and patches to make it servicable once more. Plate or chain could be collected for scrap. It is 'worthless' as armor, but would be worth something as scrap. If you are melting down the scrap and having it reforged, then you might as well be purchasing new armor anyway. It might cost a little less since you're providing some of the raw material, but there is still the cost of coal, additional metal, leather straps, not to mention the cost of the manual labour involved. When in doubt you can often use money as a common denominator.

Yea, if you look at the reply that you even quoted, I showed that everything but cloth, padded, and quilted is cheaper to buy new than have repaired. But yea, since I have no humour, it must be humourous to not read what you quote, and I am just not getting the joke.

verdilak wrote:What is everyone's opinion of "is beyond repair."

Beyond repair is when the cost of fixing it is more than the cost of buying it new. When it hits 0 SDC or MDC it is beyond repair and needs to be replaced.

verdilak wrote:Because if you talk to a blacksmith, he would say that no armour is beyond repair, if you will allow that turning the scraps into a new armour is a loose term for repair.

Um..this is not a correct statement. Having worked the Ren Faire for a few years and knowing some actual blacksmiths, there is a point where something cannot be repaired and must be recreated, which they would charge you the price of buying something new. It is more expensive and harder to recreate something from scrap than to use raw materials to make something new because tempered metal takes longer to melt down than raw ore or pre-made ingots.

verdilak wrote:Cloth armour is going to be cheaper to self-repair, even if the SDC is brought to 0, than buying new or have someone else repair.

Padded/Quilt is also going to be cheaper to self-repair than buying brand new or paying someone else to repair.

You have wasted the cost of the materials to fix this to get no benefit. That is not cheaper.

verdilak wrote:Everything else, it's going to be cheaper to buy brand new than to try and repair, either self-repair or paying someone to repair, when your current armour has a 0 SDC.

Correct

Nod.

And I'm not trying to push the idea down anyone's throat, this is for me, the GM, not for me the player. Just wanting to get a consensus of what 0 SDC means for different people, and if that changes dependent on the weapon that brought it to 0 SDC.

Wow, Verdilak. A little touchy today, aren't we?

verdilak wrote:

The ineffible GM wrote:
Verdilak:
#1 = Grow a sense of humour. There's no place on the internet for people without one.

Sure there is. But saying that armour disappears isnt funny

'Funny' is a concept based upon individual mindsets and is unique to individuals. There are certain concepts of humour that sre almost universal, but nothing is arbitrarily 'funny' or 'not funny'.
Personally, I think disapearing armour is funny.

verdilak wrote:

#2 = BS game? Considering the type of completely unrealistic BS that is part and parcel of most role-playing games (seriously, how realistic is the idea of waving your hands and chanting being able to create a fireball that is imbued with enough energy to not only travel at high velocity towards a mantally directed target but also to contain enough energy to continue burning through the time needed and through the windresistance it will encounter?) I don't think that the spontaneous non-existence of matter is too far off from the spontaneous creation of energy. The nature of the game you are playing ignores tenants of scientific reality, I simply provided one more.
Can we agree that if any of the laws of physics are being broken, then it's possible for all of them to be broken? Is that reasonable?

If we are going to agree that if some laws are broken, they al should, then how ridiculous are you wanting to be?

The grass is green, but it tastes like a freshly picked strawberry, with the nutritional aspect of a McDonalds Happy Meal.

Sunlight feels like a fresh winter snow upon your back, without heat, just coldness.

Water tastes like melted chocolate ice cream and burns everyone like acid at the touch.

So again, WHY do we have to throw all laws of physics out the door because of magic? If you do, then what I just said is no stranger or unrealistic than armour disappearing in a "PooF".

All of your suggestions are as reasonable as the idea that if you draw a circle pretty enough a monster will pop out of it, as Summoners so often do.
You don't HAVE to use the idea that armor disappears, you don't have to use the idea that magic or psionics are real, and you don't have to use strawberry tasting grass. You CAN though, if you want to. What if the Rifts or the Time of a Thousand Magics left all the grass nutriyious? That might make for an interesting twist on the classic setting. It's your CHOICE.
My point in my second post was that there ARE laws of physics being broken in the game as is. If A law is going to be ignored, then there is nothing wrong with ignoring B law. You don't have to if you don't want to. All I was saying is that if A law can be broken then there is no reason to think that the other laws are sacred.
The point of my first post, which seems to have upset you so, was merely a suggestion. You asked for ways to handle a situation, I provided one. Maybe it wasn't what you were looking for, but it was a viable option to the situation you presented. An option.

verdilak wrote:

#3 = To provide a more serious reply to your question, as apparently this is one of "those kind"s of threads, I think it completely reasonable to assume that 'damaged beyond repair' would be best translated as "Damaged to the point at which it would cost less to purchase a new suit of armour of equal value to the original than it would cost to have the original repaired". Cloth armor, if shredded and torn would be better served by new cloth than trying to create enough stitches and patches to make it servicable once more. Plate or chain could be collected for scrap. It is 'worthless' as armor, but would be worth something as scrap. If you are melting down the scrap and having it reforged, then you might as well be purchasing new armor anyway. It might cost a little less since you're providing some of the raw material, but there is still the cost of coal, additional metal, leather straps, not to mention the cost of the manual labour involved. When in doubt you can often use money as a common denominator.

Yea, if you look at the reply that you even quoted, I showed that everything but cloth, padded, and quilted is cheaper to buy new than have repaired. But yea, since I have no humour, it must be humourous to not read what you quote, and I am just not getting the joke.

And again Wow, Verdilak.
Yes, I quoted your reply. Yes, I do read things before responding. For instance, if you look here:

I think it completely reasonable to assume that 'damaged beyond repair' would be best translated as "Damaged to the point at which it would cost less to purchase a new suit of armour of equal value to the original than it would cost to have the original repaired".

you can see that I was AGREEING with you.

Your sarcasm was unnecessary, and unwarranted.

Please try to keep things friendly and jovial on the boards, or you're going to wind up getting your own thread locked. Try not to lash out at jovial suggestions, or attempts to keep discussions light-hearted. It doesn't make anyone's day better.

Wow, threatening to report my thread because someone doesnt have a thick skin? I would say that thick skins are more important than having a sense of humour while being on the internet but thats just me. Sounds a bit like blackmail as well (if you dont be nice, I will report you, because I dont think you are being nice).

Well, I didnt mean to wad anyone's panties.

Devjannz wrote:

verdilak wrote:Cloth armour is going to be cheaper to self-repair, even if the SDC is brought to 0, than buying new or have someone else repair.

Padded/Quilt is also going to be cheaper to self-repair than buying brand new or paying someone else to repair.

You have wasted the cost of the materials to fix this to get no benefit. That is not cheaper.

Actually, if you look in PF Main, it states that to self-repair 5 SDC on Cloth/Quilt costs 10 gold, or 2 gold per 1 SDC. So it would be 12 gold to self repair Cloth armour which only has 6 SDC when bought new, which costs 20 gold new. SO thats a saving of 8 gold. New Quilted armour has 15 SDC and costs 50 gold, if you self-repair it, it would only cost you 30 gold to bring it from 0 SDC to 15 SDC. There is no self-repairing scale for Padded, but its the same price/SDC/AR of QUilt, so you can use the self-repair scale for Padded. WHich means that is 20 gold cheaper to self-repair Padded or Quilt armour.

verdilak wrote:Wow, threatening to report my thread because someone doesnt have a thick skin? I would say that thick skins are more important than having a sense of humour while being on the internet but thats just me. Sounds a bit like blackmail as well (if you dont be nice, I will report you, because I dont think you are being nice).

Well, I didnt mean to wad anyone's panties.

At no time did he say anything about reporting your thread. He said that it may get locked. You took that as him saying he would report it. The MODs do actually watch threads to make sure that everything is ok on their own and do not need anyone to report a thread for it to be locked.

You need to take a step back and actually read what he posted.

verdilak wrote:

Devjannz wrote:

verdilak wrote:Cloth armour is going to be cheaper to self-repair, even if the SDC is brought to 0, than buying new or have someone else repair.

Padded/Quilt is also going to be cheaper to self-repair than buying brand new or paying someone else to repair.

You have wasted the cost of the materials to fix this to get no benefit. That is not cheaper.

Actually, if you look in PF Main, it states that to self-repair 5 SDC on Cloth/Quilt costs 10 gold, or 2 gold per 1 SDC. So it would be 12 gold to self repair Cloth armour which only has 6 SDC when bought new, which costs 20 gold new. SO thats a saving of 8 gold. New Quilted armour has 15 SDC and costs 50 gold, if you self-repair it, it would only cost you 30 gold to bring it from 0 SDC to 15 SDC. There is no self-repairing scale for Padded, but its the same price/SDC/AR of QUilt, so you can use the self-repair scale for Padded. WHich means that is 20 gold cheaper to self-repair Padded or Quilt armour.

I misread what you posted and thought you were saying that the armor would have 0 SDC after repairing it. My bad.

Devjannz wrote:

verdilak wrote:

Devjannz wrote:

verdilak wrote:Cloth armour is going to be cheaper to self-repair, even if the SDC is brought to 0, than buying new or have someone else repair.

Padded/Quilt is also going to be cheaper to self-repair than buying brand new or paying someone else to repair.

You have wasted the cost of the materials to fix this to get no benefit. That is not cheaper.

Actually, if you look in PF Main, it states that to self-repair 5 SDC on Cloth/Quilt costs 10 gold, or 2 gold per 1 SDC. So it would be 12 gold to self repair Cloth armour which only has 6 SDC when bought new, which costs 20 gold new. SO thats a saving of 8 gold. New Quilted armour has 15 SDC and costs 50 gold, if you self-repair it, it would only cost you 30 gold to bring it from 0 SDC to 15 SDC. There is no self-repairing scale for Padded, but its the same price/SDC/AR of QUilt, so you can use the self-repair scale for Padded. WHich means that is 20 gold cheaper to self-repair Padded or Quilt armour.

I misread what you posted and thought you were saying that the armor would have 0 SDC after repairing it. My bad.

Hey, no problem.

verdilak wrote:Wow, threatening to report my thread because someone doesnt have a thick skin? I would say that thick skins are more important than having a sense of humour while being on the internet but thats just me. Sounds a bit like blackmail as well (if you dont be nice, I will report you, because I dont think you are being nice).

Well, I didnt mean to wad anyone's panties.

As Devjanzz pointed out, I never said anything about reporting the thread.
I was trying to provide some friendly advice. Repeat: FRIENDLY.
Why do you continue to jump down my throat?
I was trying to warn you because I have seen NMI shut down threads for less.

If you didn't mean to "wad anyone's panties" then why did you object so violently to my first post? Why have you been so quick to get your back up against the wall at every little comment I make? Why did you assume I wanted to go about some amateur policing of the boards?

In all seriousness Verdilak, what did I ever do to you? I am not asking this with anything but curiosity in my mind. I'm honestly confused here.

Mouser13 wrote:Question: When players make called shots to the head of a enemy who is wareing armor with 20 mdc helmet. I assume that once 20 damage is done to the helmet that the troop would die. Is this correct?
Answer: If a guy has a helm with 20 MDC and suffers from a called shot to the head, then if he is an SDC "squishy" type (like most who wear body armor are) then he will have his head blown off when the damage reaches 21. If it's equal to the MDC of the body part (or Main Body for that matter) then the armor is depleted, but the guy inside is still fine, though completely vulnerable.

http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?t=79257

Seems pretty obvious doesn't it?
Good looking up, thanks!

Zylo wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zylo wrote:When someone takes a massive strike from a battle axe that deals exactly the SDC of their armor, it falls to pieces and the character feels nothing. What?!?!

Oh, he feels it.
He just doesn't take any damage from the hit.

Which flies in the face of reason, IMHO. I know it's a game and all, but when you are wearing cloth or leather armor and get plowed hard enough to destroy the suit, the fact you take 0 damage unless the suit is destroyed first has always bothered me.

You can talk about the character feeling it, role play it and all, but unless they take a point of damage, most people won't give a damn, except that they have to buy new armor if they survive the fight.

Difference in opinion, I guess.

You've never gotten into a fist fight in school or something and someone gets a shirt ripped (like buddies trying to hold a combatnt back and he tears out of his own shirt kinda thing)? In that case, think of the t-shirt as SDC cloth armor. Its lost all its effective SDC (its on the floor ripped in half). You CAN repair it (technically), but who goes around with a shirt with a big stitch line up the frint? Naw, better to just buy a new shirt

Zylo wrote:

asajosh wrote:You've never gotten into a fist fight in school or something and someone gets a shirt ripped (like buddies trying to hold a combatnt back and he tears out of his own shirt kinda thing)? In that case, think of the t-shirt as SDC cloth armor. Its lost all its effective SDC (its on the floor ripped in half). You CAN repair it (technically), but who goes around with a shirt with a big stitch line up the frint? Naw, better to just buy a new shirt

I'm not worried about repairing armor or buying it new, I'm annoyed with a character being stabbed by a sword in a spot that is a few square inches and their whole suit of armor falls to pieces, front and back.

It would be funny....if it was intended to be a goofy game.

I gotcha, and ya the would be goofy
Is it one player that brings up these "technical" problems? If so, I'd just explain that combat is slow enough sometimes and that person is just gonna have to roll with it (no pun intended). GL and have fun

isn't the point of AR to explain that?

KillWatch wrote:isn't the point of AR to explain that?

Nope, Armor Rating is different.
I hardly ever play SDC only worlds but IIRC:
Example: Armor has an AR of 10.
So if the attack roll is over ten, the attack bypasses the armor and damages the person underneith. If the roll is under ten (and strikes), the damage is direct to armor.

Zylo wrote:

asajosh wrote:You've never gotten into a fist fight in school or something and someone gets a shirt ripped (like buddies trying to hold a combatnt back and he tears out of his own shirt kinda thing)? In that case, think of the t-shirt as SDC cloth armor. Its lost all its effective SDC (its on the floor ripped in half). You CAN repair it (technically), but who goes around with a shirt with a big stitch line up the frint? Naw, better to just buy a new shirt

I'm not worried about repairing armor or buying it new, I'm annoyed with a character being stabbed by a sword in a spot that is a few square inches and their whole suit of armor falls to pieces, front and back.

It would be funny....if it was intended to be a goofy game.

You're right, that isn't how it would really work...which is why you don't let that happen. You spin the story so it makes more sense.

If a player lunges forward, stabbing towards a target, rolls under the AR so the blow strikes the armour and not the person underneath but rolls enough damage to destroy the armour, then you should spin some flavour text to turn the stabbing attack into something that would damage the armor, such as "The bandit turns as you lunge forward, the tip of your blade catches a ring of the mail and tears through the coat while scantily missing the flesh beneath"

It can be frustrating, especially if it happens often, but to go with Asajosh's comment, if you want more realistic accuracy to combat then it's going to bog down very quickly. It's a trade-off.

verdilak wrote:

Noon wrote:Well, you followed the rules for rolling to hit and dealing damage so far - why are you diverging from the rules now in what it does? The armour is gone - that's all that happens by the rules.

If your going to start thinking about this, start right from the too hit roll - or even what the attacker would do given his experience of the situation. But here it seems your thinking about it only once the players PC is hit - that's pretty metagamey.

Umm.. no. I am simply wondering. I mean, come on. Cast iron is brittle and when you hit it with a sledgehammer, you are liable to get hit in the gace with very fast moving shards, and will get hit in the shins.

Granted, iron used in swords and armour isn't cast iron, but the principle stands. If the armour or whatever is reduced to 0, how do all you other GM's handle it. it's not like the armour suddenly disappears, never to come back.

(and what the hell are you talking about metagamey and ****? you really need to re-read what I typed before you post on something that you dont understand. It's okay if you dont, just try not to be so obvious.

And, the rules don't say anything about the armour being "gone" once it is at 0 SDC. Nowhere. Just that its rendered useless and worthless. Please re-check your facts.

Besides which, um, yea, players get hit pretty often in my games. Dont know what you are playing but hitting occurs. So why shouldn't I think about that as a GM? Unless you are saying that I as a GM, should never allow my NPC's and villians or whatever never hit my players, because to allow such is, "metagamey". whatever the hell that means.)

In the ultimate addition of RUE it states that mdc or sdc armor reduced to 0points will provide protection only to an ar of 7. any roll over 7 hits and does damage to the character. in the case of mdc attacks, the character generally dies at this point in time. it does not specify how much damage armor will stop after it reaches 0 and the opponent rolls a 6, so have fun with that one.

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:In the ultimate addition of RUE it states that mdc or sdc armor reduced to 0points will provide protection only to an ar of 7. any roll over 7 hits and does damage to the character. in the case of mdc attacks, the character generally dies at this point in time. it does not specify how much damage armor will stop after it reaches 0 and the opponent rolls a 6, so have fun with that one.

Thanks... and thats interesting. So, you could have armour that is 0 SDC and 7 AR... since it doesnt state what rolling under the AR does (Does it hit the armour and the person takes no damage, half damage, full damage, what?), its a nice loophole. Just take the armour to an alchemist and pay to have it's AR raised.... get it up to 19 and you would have invincible armour, because why state that 0 SDC armour has an AR of 7 without saying what happened when the strike roll was a 5.

verdilak wrote:

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:In the ultimate addition of RUE it states that mdc or sdc armor reduced to 0points will provide protection only to an ar of 7. any roll over 7 hits and does damage to the character. in the case of mdc attacks, the character generally dies at this point in time. it does not specify how much damage armor will stop after it reaches 0 and the opponent rolls a 6, so have fun with that one.

Thanks... and thats interesting. So, you could have armour that is 0 SDC and 7 AR... since it doesnt state what rolling under the AR does (Does it hit the armour and the person takes no damage, half damage, full damage, what?), its a nice loophole. Just take the armour to an alchemist and pay to have it's AR raised.... get it up to 19 and you would have invincible armour, because why state that 0 SDC armour has an AR of 7 without saying what happened when the strike roll was a 5.

I only remember that rule applying to MDC armor, so double-check on that.

mAd eAgle wrote:Armour in any case that has had damage to 0 is useless IN COMBAT. Sure it can be salvaged like any peice of equpment. But in combat it is more of a hinderance than a help. It is still there but provides inadequate protection. I'd start to inflict penalties to any PC that continues to wear it. Sure it's not in the rules (that I'm aware of) but it just makes sense.

In the case of a fireball, Well if it is metal armour affected by magic then I'd rule that it turns to carbonised slag. Having worked as a molten metal handler for five years in a smelter has shown me the impact of fire on metal. Once it is 'Slagged' it is so porous that to date there is no viable use for it - at all.

Armour is WORTH the price one pays for it. If it SAVES your life then personally I think it has done it's job. How much is your life worth? When joining life and death battle what would you prefer: second rate armour or the best your coin could buy? Sure get as much as you can for USELESS slag and have doubt's about it's protective qualities, or go for the right gear. If you are unsure as to the PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) you will need for your next foray, then use life preserving tactics. ie: sneaky sneaky.

Think outside the lemon.

Outside the lemon... k....

If RUE states that armour that has 0 MDC has an AR now of 7, then with the AR rules, then any strike under 7 hits but does no damage. Now, here's the outside the lemon approach.... take that 0 MDC armour to an alchemist, pay out the butt for him to raise the AR to the max, which is 19, and then you have armour that only a natural 20 can penetrate, even though it's MDC is 0.